It is and has been since the begining! Unless you are talking about a more combo dredge deck, i'm just not sure dredge will ever be very combo esq in modern.
I do love my set of promo vengevines, but it's just so hard to use them now
It is and has been since the begining! Unless you are talking about a more combo dredge deck, i'm just not sure dredge will ever be very combo esq in modern.
I do love my set of promo vengevines, but it's just so hard to use them now
Oops! I was looking for it under combo. No need to list it twice, I would just love to see combo dredge in modern. But I agree, I doubt that will happen.
Until you just mentioned it, I had no idea there was a promo version of Vengevine! That looks fantastic! Hopefully the become playable soon!
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EDH RGOmnath, Locus of ManaRG URThe Locust godUR
Modern UWMiraclesUW
Legacy BGIce Station Zebra (Living Fins)BG UBRGrixis ControlUBR RGLandsRG
Definitely in need of the Tezzeret decks as well - UB with Bolas, and U splash whatever for The Seeker, prison style deck.
I'll add a second vote for UB tezz affinity, and also for stax or scepter chant. Also, something like legacy goblins. If the meta were like the one in the OP, with everything more or less viable, I would definitely come back, if only to rock UB fae. I think daze deserves a reprint, and a slightly stronger version of disrupting shoal would allow for fast combo to come back into the format. Give us top to for a counterbalance miracles list, and at that point you have ignition; the format will regulate itself from there. You could unban the rituals and cantrips, and everyone can decide for themselves the strategy that they find to be the most fun.
Well, fortunately the format you are talking about already exist : it's called legacy.
Thank you. I really don't understand all these players who want to play Legacy-style decks in Modern. Modern is different, and not everything from Legacy is here. And a lot of us like it that way.
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Things WotC cares about:
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
So, what the OP is saying is that he'd like a meta like legacy has? Perhaps maybe a turn slower, 25-50% as expensive, and perpetually supported by WOTC with reprints? I feel like if you were to take a step back and read this thread, obscuring the word 'modern,' that is the general gist you would get from the comments.
So, what the OP is saying is that he'd like a meta like legacy has? Perhaps maybe a turn slower, 25-50% as expensive, and perpetually supported by WOTC with reprints? I feel like if you were to take a step back and read this thread, obscuring the word 'modern,' that is the general gist you would get from the comments.
Exactly right. Modern isn't standard, and shouldn't be treated like standard. It's a non-rotating format that needs to be handled more like legacy if it's expected to flourish, and that means giving it the tools to foster deck diversity. It will never be legacy, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be modelled on the same basic principles. If modern were a legacy-lite format with decks that appealed to all player types, with a lower barrier to entry than actual legacy, players will flock to it. EDH is testament to the fact that players are capable of deciding for themselves what they find to be fun, and that an unsolved format that allows for the expression of individual creativity will succeed where formats that have have a clear best deck will fail.
I mean, despite the cost of entry, legacy is still growing, and every week on the legacy reddit, the number of subscribers to the sub increases, along with the number of new players interested in the format. Can you imagine if those players saw modern as an alternative? What about the people who are holding off from getting into modern because of its poor reputation, or the people who left because their decks were banned? Hell, what about people who just got sick of Jund? People want strategic diversity, and the day the modern metagame allows for the so-called fair decks to be challenged by alternative strategies is the day that Wizards finally gets it. You need all pieces of the puzzle in order to have metagame diversity, and this includes fast combo to keep the midrange decks in check, and powerful control to keep the combo decks in check.
That is my perfect meta, and right now, there's only one format that actually still has it.
Exactly right. Modern isn't standard, and shouldn't be treated like standard. It's a non-rotating format that needs to be handled more like legacy if it's expected to flourish, and that means giving it the tools to foster deck diversity. It will never be legacy, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be modelled on the same basic principles. If modern were a legacy-lite format with decks that appealed to all player types, with a lower barrier to entry than actual legacy, players will flock to it. EDH is testament to the fact that players are capable of deciding for themselves what they find to be fun, and that an unsolved format that allows for the expression of individual creativity will succeed where formats that have have a clear best deck will fail.
I mean, despite the cost of entry, legacy is still growing, and every week on the legacy reddit, the number of subscribers to the sub increases, along with the number of new players interested in the format. Can you imagine if those players saw modern as an alternative? What about the people who are holding off from getting into modern because of its poor reputation, or the people who left because their decks were banned? Hell, what about people who just got sick of Jund? People want strategic diversity, and the day the modern metagame allows for the so-called fair decks to be challenged by alternative strategies is the day that Wizards finally gets it. You need all pieces of the puzzle in order to have metagame diversity, and this includes fast combo to keep the midrange decks in check, and powerful control to keep the combo decks in check.
That is my perfect meta, and right now, there's only one format that actually still has it.
Good for you. Play that format if you want, but Modern is not supposed to be Legacy or Standard. Let Wizards treat Modern like Modern. Modern is not the stepping stone to Legacy. If it were, it would just be the format where people build less powerful versions of Legacy decks and then upgrade them to Legacy decks when they had the money. People with money would just skip Modern entirely. And if Modern becomes Legacy-lite, the Modern players who don't want to play in a format like Legacy won't have a format to go to. I like Modern's power level where it is. The banned list is screwed up, but most of the cards that I want unbanned don't break the turn 4 rule and wouldn't dominate the format (I want Wild Nacatl, Seething Song, Ponder, Preordain, Golgari Grave-Troll, Bitterblossom, and Sword of the Meek unbanned). We do need more control and tempo, but that could be solved by the listed unbans and the introduction of some new cards. And if Modern's power level was as high as you wanted it, the main things that attract me to the format would not be there. With Modern's current power level, cards from new sets actually matter. Every set since Modern's creation has has multiple playable cards and has shifted the metagame greatly. Legacy went through Gatecrash, Dragon's Maze, M14, and Theros with only a few playable cards and only one that greatly changed anything (Young Pyromancer). Legacy just seems so stagnant compared to Modern. I also hate having to deal with turn 1-2 combos and free counterspells. If you took my format away from me, I'd quit Magic, and I'm pretty sure a lot of other Modern players would say the same thing. You have your own format. Now let me have mine.
Now, back to the topic of the thread. I'd say that the dream meta for me would be an equal amount of equally powerful combo, aggro, midrange, tempo, and control decks, with no one color being represented more overall than any other. It wouldn't matter to me what the specific decks were, only that the meta was diverse and fair.
That defeats the point of this discussion. There needs to be context. For example, Mono-U control will never be as powerful as UW control, so it will never be a playable deck.
I just cannot agree with this as an absolute. There could be innovations in the future that favor mono-blue over UW or bring it on-par. I just don't subscribe to the theory that it is always better to add another color.
If this christmasland Modern meta was in fact real I would be all over mono-black control, but then I consider an otherwise black deck that runs a few overgrown tomb for Abrupt Decay to still be mono-black.
Now, back to the topic of the thread. I'd say that the dream meta for me would be an equal amount of equally powerful combo, aggro, midrange, tempo, and control decks, with no one color being represented more overall than any other. It wouldn't matter to me what the specific decks were, only that the meta was diverse and fair.
So......a meta basically exactly like legacy. Where any tier 2+ deck has a shot at winning a major tournament. Where all archetypes are supported and present in roughly equal amounts. Where free/cheap counterspells (which you apparently don't want) are needed to keep powerful combo (which you have just stated you want to be represented) in check.
Do you see the fallacy in your previous post?
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So......a meta basically exactly like legacy. Where any tier 2+ deck has a shot at winning a major tournament. Where all archetypes are supported and present in roughly equal amounts. Where free/cheap counterspells (which you apparently don't want) are needed to keep powerful combo (which you have just stated you want to be represented) in check.
Do you see the fallacy in your previous post?
No. I don't want the specific decks from legacy. People here have been saying that they want UB Tezzeret, Legacy Goblins, and several other decks. Modern doesn't need to be an offshoot of Legacy. We can create new decks. I want the various Zoo decks, Infect, and Aura Hexproof to get a boost. I want the Ux shell to be boosted to the point where it is competitive with the BG shell. I want Esper Zur, 8-Rack, Eternal Command, Esper Teachings, and Cruel Control to be on the same level as WUR Control. I want Fae to be viable and for a Delver deck to be tier 1 again. Maybe if we are lucky we'll get a couple more tempo decks too. I want some unbans so that Tezzerator and a watered-down version of Miracles are playable. That is not the same thing as wanting Modern to become Legacy. Yes, I want a self-regulating meta with a balanced amount of each archetype and color. But I don't want it to be Legacy-lite. I want us to have new innovations that are strong in our format but too weak in Legacy (the various Pod decks are good examples of this). I want games to be more than "Was your turn 1 discard or free counterspell in your opening hand?". I don't want Modern to have combos that break the turn 4 rule or counterspells more powerful than Counterspell. Balance between archetypes is not Legacy exclusive. We can have a balanced Modern without becoming Legacy-lite and just being the format that players go to when they don't have the money for Legacy decks. Modern is its own format, and people have to stop viewing it as Extended 2.0, Standard-plus, or Legacy-lite.
I have a feeling you've never actually played more than a few games of legacy. It is far from "turn 1 disruption or lose", games often go longer than modern games do. Even combo decks generally don't go off until turn 3, with the exception of Show and Tell (of which, for the record, I am for the banning), and against decks with disruption, games can go longer than the midrange-fests of "our" format.
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If this christmasland Modern meta was in fact real I would be all over mono-black control, but then I consider an otherwise black deck that runs a few overgrown tomb for Abrupt Decay to still be mono-black.
meeeee tooooo....
Only it's hard for me to splash for another color even if i'm only adding black/x multicolored cards. That said I've splashed fetches and an overgrown tomb to support DRS. It was just disheartening when every match felt like a mirror of "who plays turn 1 discard or DRS" lol
No. I don't want the specific decks from legacy. People here have been saying that they want UB Tezzeret, Legacy Goblins, and several other decks. Modern doesn't need to be an offshoot of Legacy. We can create new decks. I want the various Zoo decks, Infect, and Aura Hexproof to get a boost. I want the Ux shell to be boosted to the point where it is competitive with the BG shell. I want Esper Zur, 8-Rack, Eternal Command, Esper Teachings, and Cruel Control to be on the same level as WUR Control. I want Fae to be viable and for a Delver deck to be tier 1 again. Maybe if we are lucky we'll get a couple more tempo decks too. I want some unbans so that Tezzerator and a watered-down version of Miracles are playable. That is not the same thing as wanting Modern to become Legacy. Yes, I want a self-regulating meta with a balanced amount of each archetype and color. But I don't want it to be Legacy-lite. I want us to have new innovations that are strong in our format but too weak in Legacy (the various Pod decks are good examples of this). I want games to be more than "Was your turn 1 discard or free counterspell in your opening hand?". I don't want Modern to have combos that break the turn 4 rule or counterspells more powerful than Counterspell. Balance between archetypes is not Legacy exclusive. We can have a balanced Modern without becoming Legacy-lite and just being the format that players go to when they don't have the money for Legacy decks. Modern is its own format, and people have to stop viewing it as Extended 2.0, Standard-plus, or Legacy-lite.
The decks matter less than the balance, and you can't have true balance without including some broken things. This includes fast combo, and free counters necessary to combat fast combo. You can't artificially slow combo to the point where it is as slow as or slower than aggro, because at that stage, there isn't any point to playing combo, because it gets out-valued and beaten out by other strategies that don't have a chance of outright fizzling, and don't lose to control. Not to mention, Pod is currently seeing play in legacy, and made top 8 at an SCG last weekend. Hell, thragtusk sees legacy play, but is apparently too weak for modern. Seems a bit silly to me.
And after all that you said, you went and specified that you want the exact same thing that I do. For the most part, the deck types don't particularly bother me; I have one or two favourites that I'd like to see, but the overall picture that I want is one of diversity. That was my point. You and I both know that modern could be so much more, and it doesn't have to emulate legacy decks to do it. What I want it to emulate with regards to legacy is a balanced and diverse meta, and right now, the format seems to be moving in the opposite direction that it needs to be to achieve that.
I have a feeling you've never actually played more than a few games of legacy. It is far from "turn 1 disruption or lose", games often go longer than modern games do. Even combo decks generally don't go off until turn 3, with the exception of Show and Tell (of which, for the record, I am for the banning), and against decks with disruption, games can go longer than the midrange-fests of "our" format.
Against some decks it is. Show and Tell, ANT, Belcher, Tin Fins, and Dredge all go can go off turn 1 or 2. If you don't have your hate, you have lost against them.
The decks matter less than the balance, and you can't have true balance without including some broken things. This includes fast combo, and free counters necessary to combat fast combo. You can't artificially slow combo to the point where it is as slow as or slower than aggro, because at that stage, there isn't any point to playing combo, because it gets out-valued and beaten out by other strategies that don't have a chance of outright fizzling, and don't lose to control. Not to mention, Pod is currently seeing play in legacy, and made top 8 at an SCG last weekend. Hell, thragtusk sees legacy play, but is apparently too weak for modern. Seems a bit silly to me.
And after all that you said, you went and specified that you want the exact same thing that I do. For the most part, the deck types don't particularly bother me; I have one or two favourites that I'd like to see, but the overall picture that I want is one of diversity. That was my point. You and I both know that modern could be so much more, and it doesn't have to emulate legacy decks to do it. What I want it to emulate with regards to legacy is a balanced and diverse meta, and right now, the format seems to be moving in the opposite direction that it needs to be to achieve that.
I am sorry, I misinterpreted what you were saying. I am just tired of people saying that Modern has to be just like format x. Modern should be Modern, and a lot of people don't seem to get that. However, I disagree with you on the need for fast combo. If fast combo was needed for people to play Combo, would people be playing Melira Pod, Kiki Pod, Splinter Twin, Scapeshift, and Living End? Combo is doing fine right now, despite the existence of the turn 4 rule. And if combo can be playable while being slow, the format does not need free counterspells to stop it.
Against some decks it is. Show and Tell, ANT, Belcher, Tin Fins, and Dredge all go can go off turn 1 or 2. If you don't have your hate, you have lost against them.
But most decks do run hate maindeck for just that reason.
I don't get the fear of Modern becoming very much like Legacy. That isn't possible because the card pools are dramatically different.
Modern approaches Legacy given infinite time.
You could describe it as a sort of limit function, honestly. Never literally Legacy, but always approaching, infinitely close.
Modern approaches Legacy given infinite time.
You could describe it as a sort of limit function, honestly. Never literally Legacy, but always approaching, infinitely close.
Not true if, as Wizards has said, the design space occupied by a lot of the broken cards in the non-overlapping time period will never be revisited.
Here is the whole thing : the card pools are now dramatically different but some people are advocating for the printing of cards that are specifically legacy staples (or new version of those cards, see "new free counterspell" when it's not "reprint daze").
People choose legacy as the reference of good and balanced format as if it was the only possible one. I hope there is room for modern to be a different format with other archetypes and still be more diverse than it is now.
A few selected reprints is not the same as making the card pools meaningfully identical.
I bet there is no chance that we will ever see something like legacy's dredge, storm or show and tell in modern, no free counterspell either. Modern won't be "infinetely close" to legacy.
Look, I'm trying to appropriate calculus here for philosophical effect, the least you can do is roll with it and not take it at face value.
As you approach infinite time, the cardpool difference between legacy and modern technically gets smaller and smaller (proportional to what's common ground, I mean); sure, the difference will lead to certain archetypes that only truly exist in Legacy, but the intended message is that years down the line, assuming MtG is still alive and kicking (let alone both the formats of Modern and Legacy), Modern's going to increasingly be more and more like Legacy.
Though that may be more a function of "as the cardpool increases in a given format, the potential for a diverse and complex metagame-ecosystem increases (though with no guarantee that the potential will be fully realized at all times)."
Which is what I wanted to mean in saying Modern given infinite time should approach Legacy.
Modern approaches Legacy given infinite time.
You could describe it as a sort of limit function, honestly. Never literally Legacy, but always approaching, infinitely close.
I don't expect Modern to ever have turn 2-3 combos, free counterspells, or incredibly easy ways of cheating permanents into play. I am willing to bet that we will never see another card with Storm or Dredge. We probably will never see cards that allow for ramping like Explroation or tutors like Worldly Tutor or Cunning Wish. We will never see lands that tap for more than 1 mana. And the banned list will keep Modern's power level lower than Legacy. Modern will never become Legacy.
Look, I'm trying to appropriate calculus here for philosophical effect, the least you can do is roll with it and not take it at face value.
Sorry. I'd like to plead, "Took too much math in college."
Regarding the rest, fine, Modern will ultimately become more like Legacy in the long term, as long as you mean that Modern's metagame will become more like Legacy's in that a greater variety of decks will be effective, and the colors will be more evenly represented. I'll accept that; it's probably true. Unfortunately, that's going to take a long time, absent interference.
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It is and has been since the begining! Unless you are talking about a more combo dredge deck, i'm just not sure dredge will ever be very combo esq in modern.
I do love my set of promo vengevines, but it's just so hard to use them now
Oops! I was looking for it under combo. No need to list it twice, I would just love to see combo dredge in modern. But I agree, I doubt that will happen.
Until you just mentioned it, I had no idea there was a promo version of Vengevine! That looks fantastic! Hopefully the become playable soon!
RGOmnath, Locus of ManaRG
URThe Locust godUR
Modern
UWMiraclesUW
Legacy
BGIce Station Zebra (Living Fins)BG
UBRGrixis ControlUBR
RGLandsRG
Sig by DNC/HotP Studios
I'll add a second vote for UB tezz affinity, and also for stax or scepter chant. Also, something like legacy goblins. If the meta were like the one in the OP, with everything more or less viable, I would definitely come back, if only to rock UB fae. I think daze deserves a reprint, and a slightly stronger version of disrupting shoal would allow for fast combo to come back into the format. Give us top to for a counterbalance miracles list, and at that point you have ignition; the format will regulate itself from there. You could unban the rituals and cantrips, and everyone can decide for themselves the strategy that they find to be the most fun.
Thank you. I really don't understand all these players who want to play Legacy-style decks in Modern. Modern is different, and not everything from Legacy is here. And a lot of us like it that way.
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
Exactly right. Modern isn't standard, and shouldn't be treated like standard. It's a non-rotating format that needs to be handled more like legacy if it's expected to flourish, and that means giving it the tools to foster deck diversity. It will never be legacy, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be modelled on the same basic principles. If modern were a legacy-lite format with decks that appealed to all player types, with a lower barrier to entry than actual legacy, players will flock to it. EDH is testament to the fact that players are capable of deciding for themselves what they find to be fun, and that an unsolved format that allows for the expression of individual creativity will succeed where formats that have have a clear best deck will fail.
I mean, despite the cost of entry, legacy is still growing, and every week on the legacy reddit, the number of subscribers to the sub increases, along with the number of new players interested in the format. Can you imagine if those players saw modern as an alternative? What about the people who are holding off from getting into modern because of its poor reputation, or the people who left because their decks were banned? Hell, what about people who just got sick of Jund? People want strategic diversity, and the day the modern metagame allows for the so-called fair decks to be challenged by alternative strategies is the day that Wizards finally gets it. You need all pieces of the puzzle in order to have metagame diversity, and this includes fast combo to keep the midrange decks in check, and powerful control to keep the combo decks in check.
That is my perfect meta, and right now, there's only one format that actually still has it.
Good for you. Play that format if you want, but Modern is not supposed to be Legacy or Standard. Let Wizards treat Modern like Modern. Modern is not the stepping stone to Legacy. If it were, it would just be the format where people build less powerful versions of Legacy decks and then upgrade them to Legacy decks when they had the money. People with money would just skip Modern entirely. And if Modern becomes Legacy-lite, the Modern players who don't want to play in a format like Legacy won't have a format to go to. I like Modern's power level where it is. The banned list is screwed up, but most of the cards that I want unbanned don't break the turn 4 rule and wouldn't dominate the format (I want Wild Nacatl, Seething Song, Ponder, Preordain, Golgari Grave-Troll, Bitterblossom, and Sword of the Meek unbanned). We do need more control and tempo, but that could be solved by the listed unbans and the introduction of some new cards. And if Modern's power level was as high as you wanted it, the main things that attract me to the format would not be there. With Modern's current power level, cards from new sets actually matter. Every set since Modern's creation has has multiple playable cards and has shifted the metagame greatly. Legacy went through Gatecrash, Dragon's Maze, M14, and Theros with only a few playable cards and only one that greatly changed anything (Young Pyromancer). Legacy just seems so stagnant compared to Modern. I also hate having to deal with turn 1-2 combos and free counterspells. If you took my format away from me, I'd quit Magic, and I'm pretty sure a lot of other Modern players would say the same thing. You have your own format. Now let me have mine.
Now, back to the topic of the thread. I'd say that the dream meta for me would be an equal amount of equally powerful combo, aggro, midrange, tempo, and control decks, with no one color being represented more overall than any other. It wouldn't matter to me what the specific decks were, only that the meta was diverse and fair.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
If this christmasland Modern meta was in fact real I would be all over mono-black control, but then I consider an otherwise black deck that runs a few overgrown tomb for Abrupt Decay to still be mono-black.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
So......a meta basically exactly like legacy. Where any tier 2+ deck has a shot at winning a major tournament. Where all archetypes are supported and present in roughly equal amounts. Where free/cheap counterspells (which you apparently don't want) are needed to keep powerful combo (which you have just stated you want to be represented) in check.
Do you see the fallacy in your previous post?
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Quotes:
No. I don't want the specific decks from legacy. People here have been saying that they want UB Tezzeret, Legacy Goblins, and several other decks. Modern doesn't need to be an offshoot of Legacy. We can create new decks. I want the various Zoo decks, Infect, and Aura Hexproof to get a boost. I want the Ux shell to be boosted to the point where it is competitive with the BG shell. I want Esper Zur, 8-Rack, Eternal Command, Esper Teachings, and Cruel Control to be on the same level as WUR Control. I want Fae to be viable and for a Delver deck to be tier 1 again. Maybe if we are lucky we'll get a couple more tempo decks too. I want some unbans so that Tezzerator and a watered-down version of Miracles are playable. That is not the same thing as wanting Modern to become Legacy. Yes, I want a self-regulating meta with a balanced amount of each archetype and color. But I don't want it to be Legacy-lite. I want us to have new innovations that are strong in our format but too weak in Legacy (the various Pod decks are good examples of this). I want games to be more than "Was your turn 1 discard or free counterspell in your opening hand?". I don't want Modern to have combos that break the turn 4 rule or counterspells more powerful than Counterspell. Balance between archetypes is not Legacy exclusive. We can have a balanced Modern without becoming Legacy-lite and just being the format that players go to when they don't have the money for Legacy decks. Modern is its own format, and people have to stop viewing it as Extended 2.0, Standard-plus, or Legacy-lite.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
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Quotes:
meeeee tooooo....
Only it's hard for me to splash for another color even if i'm only adding black/x multicolored cards. That said I've splashed fetches and an overgrown tomb to support DRS. It was just disheartening when every match felt like a mirror of "who plays turn 1 discard or DRS" lol
The decks matter less than the balance, and you can't have true balance without including some broken things. This includes fast combo, and free counters necessary to combat fast combo. You can't artificially slow combo to the point where it is as slow as or slower than aggro, because at that stage, there isn't any point to playing combo, because it gets out-valued and beaten out by other strategies that don't have a chance of outright fizzling, and don't lose to control. Not to mention, Pod is currently seeing play in legacy, and made top 8 at an SCG last weekend. Hell, thragtusk sees legacy play, but is apparently too weak for modern. Seems a bit silly to me.
And after all that you said, you went and specified that you want the exact same thing that I do. For the most part, the deck types don't particularly bother me; I have one or two favourites that I'd like to see, but the overall picture that I want is one of diversity. That was my point. You and I both know that modern could be so much more, and it doesn't have to emulate legacy decks to do it. What I want it to emulate with regards to legacy is a balanced and diverse meta, and right now, the format seems to be moving in the opposite direction that it needs to be to achieve that.
Against some decks it is. Show and Tell, ANT, Belcher, Tin Fins, and Dredge all go can go off turn 1 or 2. If you don't have your hate, you have lost against them.
I am sorry, I misinterpreted what you were saying. I am just tired of people saying that Modern has to be just like format x. Modern should be Modern, and a lot of people don't seem to get that. However, I disagree with you on the need for fast combo. If fast combo was needed for people to play Combo, would people be playing Melira Pod, Kiki Pod, Splinter Twin, Scapeshift, and Living End? Combo is doing fine right now, despite the existence of the turn 4 rule. And if combo can be playable while being slow, the format does not need free counterspells to stop it.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I don't get the fear of Modern becoming very much like Legacy. That isn't possible because the card pools are dramatically different.
You could describe it as a sort of limit function, honestly. Never literally Legacy, but always approaching, infinitely close.
A few selected reprints is not the same as making the card pools meaningfully identical.
Look, I'm trying to appropriate calculus here for philosophical effect, the least you can do is roll with it and not take it at face value.
As you approach infinite time, the cardpool difference between legacy and modern technically gets smaller and smaller (proportional to what's common ground, I mean); sure, the difference will lead to certain archetypes that only truly exist in Legacy, but the intended message is that years down the line, assuming MtG is still alive and kicking (let alone both the formats of Modern and Legacy), Modern's going to increasingly be more and more like Legacy.
Though that may be more a function of "as the cardpool increases in a given format, the potential for a diverse and complex metagame-ecosystem increases (though with no guarantee that the potential will be fully realized at all times)."
Which is what I wanted to mean in saying Modern given infinite time should approach Legacy.
I don't expect Modern to ever have turn 2-3 combos, free counterspells, or incredibly easy ways of cheating permanents into play. I am willing to bet that we will never see another card with Storm or Dredge. We probably will never see cards that allow for ramping like Explroation or tutors like Worldly Tutor or Cunning Wish. We will never see lands that tap for more than 1 mana. And the banned list will keep Modern's power level lower than Legacy. Modern will never become Legacy.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Regarding the rest, fine, Modern will ultimately become more like Legacy in the long term, as long as you mean that Modern's metagame will become more like Legacy's in that a greater variety of decks will be effective, and the colors will be more evenly represented. I'll accept that; it's probably true. Unfortunately, that's going to take a long time, absent interference.