Honestly if they really want to promote Modern then they should print a modern event deck in the style of the commander ones. They don't need to be Jund, but a modern legal burn deck/tron/discard/zoo deck can be built fairly budget. It's not going to be t1, but it gives people a natural jumping point. It's a lot easier to buy an event deck play a few times and swap out two-three cards at a time than create a whole deck.
I think this is actually a really good idea. If they want to promote modern, they should sell some modern event decks so people have something to work from. With budget options for some cards.
Standard players spend ten times as much perpetually updating decks throughout the cycles, and massive metagame shifts than they would spend on a handful of modern decks. But they've already spent the money. They've already chosen their format. And because they are the almighty and infallible God of logic, they couldn't POSSIBLY be wrong. So they will continue to spend hundreds of dollars every few months while parroting every excuse they can find, especially the one of expense, to try and soothe their egos and convince themselves they were right.
Legacy players on the other hand are having trouble coming to grips with the reality that legacy is dying. They don't want to be shown up either. Or made to see that they made the wrong choice. So they will keep their heads down and pretend as well. Until slowly one by one they leave, the scene whittles away, and eventually they have nobody to play with but themselves.
Legacy players on the other hand are having trouble coming to grips with the reality that legacy is dying. They don't want to be shown up either. Or made to see that they made the wrong choice. So they will keep their heads down and pretend as well. Until slowly one by one they leave, the scene whittles away, and eventually they have nobody to play with but themselves.
Oh yea Legacy is totally dying, its not like Grand Prix DC was the largest magic tournament in North America to date. Or its not like the attendance figures for SCG Opens is up. Oh wait both of those are actually true, Legacy is more popular than it has ever been, its only been growing the last couple of years. You're right that there are reserve list issues that do put a theoretical limit on the number of people that can play Legacy, but that's so far down the line that I don't foresee it happening for years. The people who are trying to claim that Legacy is dying are just bitter that they didn't get in before the prices rose or Modern players in denial.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Largest magic tournament in North America to date?
I believe GP Vegas wants to have a word with you.
Still, I don't think Legacy is dying either. At my LGS more and more people are playing it. Perhaps if Modern had the metagame of legacy, that wouldn't be true.
Largest magic tournament in North America to date?
I believe GP Vegas wants to have a word with you.
Still, I don't think Legacy is dying either. At my LGS more and more people are playing it. Perhaps if Modern had the metagame of legacy, that wouldn't be true.
*sigh* there are always pedants, yes you are correct that I forgot to say constructed, GP DC was the largest constructed Magic event in North America to date.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Standard players spend ten times as much perpetually updating decks throughout the cycles, and massive metagame shifts than they would spend on a handful of modern decks. But they've already spent the money. They've already chosen their format. And because they are the almighty and infallible God of logic, they couldn't POSSIBLY be wrong. So they will continue to spend hundreds of dollars every few months while parroting every excuse they can find, especially the one of expense, to try and soothe their egos and convince themselves they were right.
Legacy players on the other hand are having trouble coming to grips with the reality that legacy is dying. They don't want to be shown up either. Or made to see that they made the wrong choice. So they will keep their heads down and pretend as well. Until slowly one by one they leave, the scene whittles away, and eventually they have nobody to play with but themselves.
Stupid Legacy with its "high attendance" and "large player base" it should definitely be more like Modern with neither of those things.
Perhaps you should just consider Modern the inferior format for fun to most players, because that's probably why its following is so weak.
Legacy's player base can only grow so much with the reserve list. Lots of legacy staples are on it and there are lots of legacy staples that aren't that could only be reprinted in supplemental product (thus limiting the amount that is truly introduced to the player base). Not only that, but cards get destroyed in all sorts of ways in real life and that will shrink Legacy's player base along with player attrition/burn out.
Paper Vintage has gotten more and more niche as a format and the same thing will happen with Legacy. The raw numbers will be bigger for legacy than vintage, just because there are more revised duals/force of wills than power 9, but it'll be a drop in the bucket compared to standard's player base.
I think it is important to remember that every format has had teething problems, modern's have just taken longer to sort out because WotC has been very aggressive in shaping the format. As new cards are introduced, the meta will change and diversify, just give it time.
Wow so much BS being spewed by legacy players and modern players alike.
First to dispel some myths...
1) Sorry legacy players, but legacy is MUCH more expensive by miles if you don't want to be stuck bored while playing burn of the famous "$8 Cycling Deck". Seriously... Legacy duals are 50-120 dollars each with the modern equivalent being only 10-20 (shocklands).
This isn't even a debate, anyone who tells you that modern is just as expensive as legacy is some you best avoid listening to, disregard every opinion they have regarding magic. Let's not even get started on Wasteland, Will and friends.
2) Sorry my fellow modern players, but its pretty indisputable that the ban list has driven MANY players away. Specifically the Seething Song ban. You can harp about the violation of the turn 3 rule all you want, but in that ban they killed off *multiple* decks that didn't deserve it (UR Tron, Hivemind, Breach). People can often only afford 1 deck, sometimes 2and when you kill off one of their few decks then they are not going to feel very warm and fuzzy towards the format that just sunk the money they spent on a deck they liked.
I've seen modern attendance in my area go from 30-40 a week to at best 15 a week. And I might also leave due to how stale the format has gotten and the feeling that my Pod deck might get banned.
I love the format but have become disillusioned with it due to the handling of the ban list and the way new printings have pushed whole archetypes out of the format (hey! where did teir1 tempo go after Abrupt Decay and DRS?).
Legacy is definitely more expensive overall than modern, I don't think anyone can really deny that. A legacy deck might set you back a lot of money, but it's not something you acquire overnight. You generally play with proxies, and piece things together as you save up store credit, etc. If you need to play in a tournament, there are usually people willing to lend cards, and it's not unheard of nowadays for tournaments to allow proxies within certain limitations.
However, the bright side is that no matter what archetype you enjoy, there's probably a strong, competitive list for it (if not several). Compare this to modern, where the type of strategy you enjoy playing may not even exist, and not for lack of trying. Personally, I'm okay with acquiring legacy cards over a long period time if it means I can play a deck that I enjoy, and that will stay fairly relevant over a long period of time.
The real problem that is happening now, that not many people seem to be talking about, is that Wizards is printing cards for eternal formats that are shaking things up considerably. Frankly, the format has seen too many shake-ups since Innistrad.
The real problem that is happening now, that not many people seem to be talking about, is that Wizards is printing cards for eternal formats that are shaking things up considerably. Frankly, the format has seen too many shake-ups since Innistrad.
I personally like the shake-ups. It keeps the metagame in flux and prevents stagnation.
Compare this to modern, where the type of strategy you enjoy playing may not even exist, and not for lack of trying.
Unfortunately.
This is one way Modern SHOULD become more like Legacy: less reliance on pro players. Ideas in Modern can't take off like those in Legacy. The biggest shake-ups tend to surround whatever innovation a pro player made this tournament.
But this isn't sole fault of Modern players. It's hard to build a working hive mind similar to Legacy and Standard when Modern has so few large tournaments to keep stirring the pot. Modern needs much, MUCH more visibility.
Every ban that comes out my area loses anywhere from 1-3 players from the format.
We started with a solid 30+ we're down to the loyal 15 or so now that show to local events.
The ban list has turned away alot of our players. Some people foil out their whole decks or get damn close just to have a key part banned and the deck made unplayable... really leaves a mark on the format.
Every ban that comes out my area loses anywhere from 1-3 players from the format.
We started with a solid 30+ we're down to the loyal 15 or so now that show to local events.
The ban list has turned away alot of our players. Some people foil out their whole decks or get damn close just to have a key part banned and the deck made unplayable... really leaves a mark on the format.
Never got why people foil out their decks, I mean, surely people have better things to do with their money (even if they are spending it on Magic cards, they could buy new decks) than making their deck look fancy. And if you lose 1-3 players with every ban, then you have only lost 3-9 since 2011.
Fetch lands are preventing the jump from standard into modern.
Legacy basically doesn't exist here, It is just for the hardest of the hardcore spikes.
Limted places to play compedatively, there is basically 1 store in the whole city that does regular tournaments as far as I can tell and it is a long way from me.
The constantly shifting ban list that is messing with people. I know a lot of people just having thier favourite decks banned out of existance every half a year annoies them. I used to play modern then they banned ponder. This was a modern deck then they banned cloudpost. casual decks now.
The other thing is the lack of innovaition there seems to be in modern, it is definately underexplored, but people and the pro's just seem to build good stuff decks. They play it safe for the pro tour. Without Opens and other regular more relaxed tournaments there just isn't the place for people to try things like some of Travis Woos brews.
I think a lot of the bannings issue could be fixed with a ton more innoviation, the problem is they ban anything that gets too popular (at least what it seems like). If people innoviated more we wouldn't end up with decks completely dominating the format all the time.
The constantly shifting ban list that is messing with people. I know a lot of people just having thier favourite decks banned out of existance every half a year annoies them. I used to play modern then they banned ponder. This was a modern deck then they banned cloudpost. casual decks now.
Really, people need to stop with this. There have only been 3 bans since 2011! That is not a lot! Constantly shifting implies that there were a lot of bans since then, but there haven't been.
It's not as easymode as standard and not as "cool" as legacy, which might explain the unpopularity compared to those two formats. As bill zagoudis has mentioned two posts above, modern appeals to a specific generation of players.
I play all the formats and I like modern more than standard and legacy. The problem is, few people play multiple formats so they tend to pigeon-hole themselves into the one format they are comfortable with.
Really, people need to stop with this. There have only been 3 bans since 2011! That is not a lot! Constantly shifting implies that there were a lot of bans since then, but there haven't been.
But if you look at the timeline of the B&R list, after legacy is created in 2004, 6 cards have been banned, one of them is Shahrazad which is banned in every format like the ante and manual dexterity cards so I don't think it counts. So yes I would say that 3 bans in 2 years is quite a lot when you look at the history of magic.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
\
I love the format but have become disillusioned with it due to the handling of the ban list and the way new printings have pushed whole archetypes out of the format (hey! where did teir1 tempo go after Abrupt Decay and DRS?).
Agreed. The pendulum needs to swing back and shake things up a bit, because that's exactly what stuff like a 2 mana uncounterable catch-all and a swiss army knife 1 drop do - they push entire archetypes out and make things BORING.
It is a regional thing. My city has two main places to play. We get about twenty for modern. Lowest has been twelve, highest thirty. We get eight to tenfor standard held less often. Our world cup qualifier two years ago had seventeen. That is how unpopular standard was. And yet fifty miles down the road in a bigger city modern is pretty dead. In both cases it is down to player base. They have newer players and do not want to shell out on initial expenses like fetches. We had the cards and do not want to shell out on cards that drop on rotation. The format and ban list are not problems. The banning of eggs was fair on time grounds. Storm could have been done better by printing more stifle effects or getting shot of the kill cards. Modern does not need storm, sorry. It puts new players off as much as price. Legacy has those solo decks. What really drove us to modern was one player-me- building all the best decks and loaning them out. If you want a format to prosper that is what must happen- new players must be able to borrow the very top decks while they get theirs together. We have a new store where modern is taking off too. Generally we have left new players to play each other there rather than turning up with tier one and smashing them. For a format to grow players need time and nurturing. And individuals prepared to go the extra yard to help new people break in. Finally I want to add that tammy is not an issue. Nor bob. It is fetches that must be reprinted soon.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
People really hate that there isn't a clearly defined "best deck" don't they?
There is a group of players that are extremely good pilots and dont want to have to actually put time into the format and like...test. Those are the ones who wish there was a clear cut 'best deck', not everyone.
People really hate that there isn't a clearly defined "best deck" don't they?
The best deck is BGx midrange not close. Deathrite shaman and abrupt decay are the only good cards left in the format that haven't been banned. It's like the hypothetically banning spree in legacy. You ban everything until rebels is the best deck and then you ban lin-sivvi.
Modern is more expensive than legacy when your deck gets banhammered you have to buy into another deck right? I don't know about you but the premier lands in the format aren't 10 a pop, they're 30+ a pop (fetchlands.) There are many crossover staples between modern and legacy and all those cards are quite spendy (goyf, confidant, clique.) Modern also has some staple cards that are spendy that aren't even legacy playable (remand, cryptic command, filterlands to an extent, karn liberated, oblivion stone, all is dust, eldrazi not named emrakul.)
Modern is unpopular because of bannings. WotC has banhammered the **** out of this format and there's no end in sight to the bannings. Had one unbanning but people don't really care about valakut. People care about things like ancestral visions and JTMS/cards that would shake the metagame up.
Fetches weren't in MMA due to the cutoff being shards of alara block. Zendikar is the block after shards of alara block/couldn't be included.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
The best deck is BGx midrange not close. Deathrite shaman and abrupt decay are the only good cards left in the format that haven't been banned. It's like the hypothetically banning spree in legacy. You ban everything until rebels is the best deck and then you ban lin-sivvi.
Modern is more expensive than legacy when your deck gets banhammered you have to buy into another deck right? I don't know about you but the premier lands in the format aren't 10 a pop, they're 30+ a pop (fetchlands.) There are many crossover staples between modern and legacy and all those cards are quite spendy (goyf, confidant, clique.) Modern also has some staple cards that are spendy that aren't even legacy playable (remand, cryptic command, filterlands to an extent, karn liberated, oblivion stone, all is dust, eldrazi not named emrakul.)
Modern is unpopular because of bannings. WotC has banhammered the **** out of this format and there's no end in sight to the bannings. Had one unbanning but people don't really care about valakut. People care about things like ancestral visions and JTMS/cards that would shake the metagame up.
Fetches weren't in MMA due to the cutoff being shards of alara block. Zendikar is the block after shards of alara block/couldn't be included.
modern is a deck builder's paradise, but a pilot's nightmare. Everyone I have met who hates modern does so because they are good pilots who are not good at building but very good at learning a five match meta. Any deck is possible in the modern format and so few top events means metas are very diverse. I have been on forums where people say that the crazy amount of decks make it luck based and impossible to test for. Such people are generally tossers in my view, but it is the most popular view I have encountered amongst the more serious players who hate modern. I have never found a person who quit because their deck was banned. Not one. Perhaps it is a us uk thing. Maybe people take bannings to heart more in other places. But even though I would love to play in a format where hive mind is possible I just accept they took my rituals away and get on with it. When you can play so many decks why get upset when one is banned, especially if it is cheap? There are forty more you could play, which is more than standard.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
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I think this is actually a really good idea. If they want to promote modern, they should sell some modern event decks so people have something to work from. With budget options for some cards.
Standard players spend ten times as much perpetually updating decks throughout the cycles, and massive metagame shifts than they would spend on a handful of modern decks. But they've already spent the money. They've already chosen their format. And because they are the almighty and infallible God of logic, they couldn't POSSIBLY be wrong. So they will continue to spend hundreds of dollars every few months while parroting every excuse they can find, especially the one of expense, to try and soothe their egos and convince themselves they were right.
Legacy players on the other hand are having trouble coming to grips with the reality that legacy is dying. They don't want to be shown up either. Or made to see that they made the wrong choice. So they will keep their heads down and pretend as well. Until slowly one by one they leave, the scene whittles away, and eventually they have nobody to play with but themselves.
Oh yea Legacy is totally dying, its not like Grand Prix DC was the largest magic tournament in North America to date. Or its not like the attendance figures for SCG Opens is up. Oh wait both of those are actually true, Legacy is more popular than it has ever been, its only been growing the last couple of years. You're right that there are reserve list issues that do put a theoretical limit on the number of people that can play Legacy, but that's so far down the line that I don't foresee it happening for years. The people who are trying to claim that Legacy is dying are just bitter that they didn't get in before the prices rose or Modern players in denial.
I believe GP Vegas wants to have a word with you.
Still, I don't think Legacy is dying either. At my LGS more and more people are playing it. Perhaps if Modern had the metagame of legacy, that wouldn't be true.
I'm sorry, but you lost ALL credibility with this statement...
There are PLENTY of decks in Legacy that don't even run ONE of those cards... and they're VERY competitive still even for not running them...
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*sigh* there are always pedants, yes you are correct that I forgot to say constructed, GP DC was the largest constructed Magic event in North America to date.
Stupid Legacy with its "high attendance" and "large player base" it should definitely be more like Modern with neither of those things.
Perhaps you should just consider Modern the inferior format for fun to most players, because that's probably why its following is so weak.
Paper Vintage has gotten more and more niche as a format and the same thing will happen with Legacy. The raw numbers will be bigger for legacy than vintage, just because there are more revised duals/force of wills than power 9, but it'll be a drop in the bucket compared to standard's player base.
I think it is important to remember that every format has had teething problems, modern's have just taken longer to sort out because WotC has been very aggressive in shaping the format. As new cards are introduced, the meta will change and diversify, just give it time.
First to dispel some myths...
1) Sorry legacy players, but legacy is MUCH more expensive by miles if you don't want to be stuck bored while playing burn of the famous "$8 Cycling Deck". Seriously... Legacy duals are 50-120 dollars each with the modern equivalent being only 10-20 (shocklands).
This isn't even a debate, anyone who tells you that modern is just as expensive as legacy is some you best avoid listening to, disregard every opinion they have regarding magic. Let's not even get started on Wasteland, Will and friends.
2) Sorry my fellow modern players, but its pretty indisputable that the ban list has driven MANY players away. Specifically the Seething Song ban. You can harp about the violation of the turn 3 rule all you want, but in that ban they killed off *multiple* decks that didn't deserve it (UR Tron, Hivemind, Breach). People can often only afford 1 deck, sometimes 2and when you kill off one of their few decks then they are not going to feel very warm and fuzzy towards the format that just sunk the money they spent on a deck they liked.
I've seen modern attendance in my area go from 30-40 a week to at best 15 a week. And I might also leave due to how stale the format has gotten and the feeling that my Pod deck might get banned.
I love the format but have become disillusioned with it due to the handling of the ban list and the way new printings have pushed whole archetypes out of the format (hey! where did teir1 tempo go after Abrupt Decay and DRS?).
However, the bright side is that no matter what archetype you enjoy, there's probably a strong, competitive list for it (if not several). Compare this to modern, where the type of strategy you enjoy playing may not even exist, and not for lack of trying. Personally, I'm okay with acquiring legacy cards over a long period time if it means I can play a deck that I enjoy, and that will stay fairly relevant over a long period of time.
The real problem that is happening now, that not many people seem to be talking about, is that Wizards is printing cards for eternal formats that are shaking things up considerably. Frankly, the format has seen too many shake-ups since Innistrad.
I personally like the shake-ups. It keeps the metagame in flux and prevents stagnation.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Unfortunately.
This is one way Modern SHOULD become more like Legacy: less reliance on pro players. Ideas in Modern can't take off like those in Legacy. The biggest shake-ups tend to surround whatever innovation a pro player made this tournament.
But this isn't sole fault of Modern players. It's hard to build a working hive mind similar to Legacy and Standard when Modern has so few large tournaments to keep stirring the pot. Modern needs much, MUCH more visibility.
We started with a solid 30+ we're down to the loyal 15 or so now that show to local events.
The ban list has turned away alot of our players. Some people foil out their whole decks or get damn close just to have a key part banned and the deck made unplayable... really leaves a mark on the format.
Never got why people foil out their decks, I mean, surely people have better things to do with their money (even if they are spending it on Magic cards, they could buy new decks) than making their deck look fancy. And if you lose 1-3 players with every ban, then you have only lost 3-9 since 2011.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Legacy basically doesn't exist here, It is just for the hardest of the hardcore spikes.
Limted places to play compedatively, there is basically 1 store in the whole city that does regular tournaments as far as I can tell and it is a long way from me.
The constantly shifting ban list that is messing with people. I know a lot of people just having thier favourite decks banned out of existance every half a year annoies them. I used to play modern then they banned ponder. This was a modern deck then they banned cloudpost. casual decks now.
The other thing is the lack of innovaition there seems to be in modern, it is definately underexplored, but people and the pro's just seem to build good stuff decks. They play it safe for the pro tour. Without Opens and other regular more relaxed tournaments there just isn't the place for people to try things like some of Travis Woos brews.
I think a lot of the bannings issue could be fixed with a ton more innoviation, the problem is they ban anything that gets too popular (at least what it seems like). If people innoviated more we wouldn't end up with decks completely dominating the format all the time.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Really, people need to stop with this. There have only been 3 bans since 2011! That is not a lot! Constantly shifting implies that there were a lot of bans since then, but there haven't been.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I play all the formats and I like modern more than standard and legacy. The problem is, few people play multiple formats so they tend to pigeon-hole themselves into the one format they are comfortable with.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
But if you look at the timeline of the B&R list, after legacy is created in 2004, 6 cards have been banned, one of them is Shahrazad which is banned in every format like the ante and manual dexterity cards so I don't think it counts. So yes I would say that 3 bans in 2 years is quite a lot when you look at the history of magic.
Agreed. The pendulum needs to swing back and shake things up a bit, because that's exactly what stuff like a 2 mana uncounterable catch-all and a swiss army knife 1 drop do - they push entire archetypes out and make things BORING.
There is a group of players that are extremely good pilots and dont want to have to actually put time into the format and like...test. Those are the ones who wish there was a clear cut 'best deck', not everyone.
The best deck is BGx midrange not close. Deathrite shaman and abrupt decay are the only good cards left in the format that haven't been banned. It's like the hypothetically banning spree in legacy. You ban everything until rebels is the best deck and then you ban lin-sivvi.
Modern is more expensive than legacy when your deck gets banhammered you have to buy into another deck right? I don't know about you but the premier lands in the format aren't 10 a pop, they're 30+ a pop (fetchlands.) There are many crossover staples between modern and legacy and all those cards are quite spendy (goyf, confidant, clique.) Modern also has some staple cards that are spendy that aren't even legacy playable (remand, cryptic command, filterlands to an extent, karn liberated, oblivion stone, all is dust, eldrazi not named emrakul.)
Modern is unpopular because of bannings. WotC has banhammered the **** out of this format and there's no end in sight to the bannings. Had one unbanning but people don't really care about valakut. People care about things like ancestral visions and JTMS/cards that would shake the metagame up.
Fetches weren't in MMA due to the cutoff being shards of alara block. Zendikar is the block after shards of alara block/couldn't be included.
Currently Playing:
Retired
I think a lot of people here just want a U based deck to be the best.
modern is a deck builder's paradise, but a pilot's nightmare. Everyone I have met who hates modern does so because they are good pilots who are not good at building but very good at learning a five match meta. Any deck is possible in the modern format and so few top events means metas are very diverse. I have been on forums where people say that the crazy amount of decks make it luck based and impossible to test for. Such people are generally tossers in my view, but it is the most popular view I have encountered amongst the more serious players who hate modern. I have never found a person who quit because their deck was banned. Not one. Perhaps it is a us uk thing. Maybe people take bannings to heart more in other places. But even though I would love to play in a format where hive mind is possible I just accept they took my rituals away and get on with it. When you can play so many decks why get upset when one is banned, especially if it is cheap? There are forty more you could play, which is more than standard.