If they don't unban something I'm quitting modern forever in favor of legacy or, xenagos forbid, standard
I wouldn't go that far. But if something dumb like DRS gets banned... that's time to jump ship. I enjoy modern for having a higher PL then standard... maybe legacy is the format for me
I would like miracles to be in this format in some form, so I would support an eventual Jace unban. Also, only the fair blue decks would run Jace. In that way it is very similar to Tarmogoyf. But I agree that Jace is a little too powerful right now, I just want him unbanned eventually. If he was unbanned right now, I would be concerned.
Well I realize you were responding to the Miracle situation, which objectively i can probably agree that Jace doesn't make them insane by himself. He just brings insane to the table without needing the help of a "Miracle". heh.
But I don't agree that "only the fair decks would run Jace." Maybe maindeck, he would be primarily a 4-of in U/W/R control-style decks. Than he might fluctuate from 2-4 copies in something like U/R Delver, but I'm pretty darn sure RUG Delver would emerge as the strongest Delver deck and they would probably run 4. Finally, combo decks like Twin would probably just Sideboard a few copies of Jace, as we've seen in the past. In short, nearly every blue deck would at some point, have the desire to run some number of Jaces in the 75. Even if wasn't all the time and all 4 copies in every deck, it would be nearly ubiquitous amongst blue mages.
I understand your point, but I think that it could eventually be unbanned. Of course, I have an unhealthy infatuation with that card, so it might be that.
We'll just go ahead and call this bias then. I'm not excited when my opponent resolves Stoneforge against me in Legacy, even when I do have the Bolt/Stifle/Fow. Unless I Spell Snare the card, it's just bad value no matter how you slice it. Yes we have answers (like Snare) in Modern, but it doesn't detract from how powerful Mystic-->Batterskull/Sword is. Unless we want ALL the White decks to become "Blade" variants, this is just too unhealthy for Modern.
Actually, I'd be more concerned about Melira Pod than Kiki Pod. And Chord of Calling would still be better in the Pod decks because it can tutor all of the pieces of the combo at instant speed, not just one or zero combo pieces.
Yes, Melira Pod easily benefits more from GSZ than the other variants. Yes Chord finds all the pieces. Would a split be reasonable? Probably. The problem with GSZ though isn't just that it pushes Pod even harder, it's that every Green creature deck gets insanely consistent. And they all begin to resemble each other. Every green deck would have access to this standardized GSZ shell:
....and it would take a lot to skip out on this powerful little tutor package. GSZ is pretty cool and makes for interesting plays, I will admit, but it's still a little unhealthy, and definitely pushes the power level and consistency farther than existing decks.
(RE: Ponder) Let's look at what decks it makes better.
Storm: Needs the help
UR Delver: Needs the help
RUG Delver: Needs the help
Ninja Bear Delver: Needs the help
Griselbrand Reanimator: Needs the help
Amulet of Vigor: Needs the help
Ad Nauseam: Needs the help
Splinter Twin: Can't break the turn 4 rule
At worst, it would make Twin able to compete with BGx. At best, it helps several decks that need help, including multiple tempo decks.
I'll go ahead and agree that IF all those decks needed the help, Preordain would still be fine. I'm not sure that U/R or RUG Delver need the help though. And you're missing the part where Twin and U/W/R, which are essentially both Tier 1, both get stronger as well. Twin doesn't need to break the turn 4 rule to become a stronger deck. U/W/R doesn't need a better cantrip to compete with the other tier 1 decks, it just won a GP!
I'm all for Ponder OR Preordain coming off, maybe not yet, but someday soon. But I'm not kidding myself about the kind of power they lend to existing decks, let alone possibly pushing those Tier 2 combo decks into the realm of too strong.
First, how are you doing RUG cascade control? You can't run counter spells because you can cascade into them and counter your own spell. It would be midrange, and I still doubt that it would be as strong as BBE Jund. Also, people wouldn't run Violent Outburst to cascade into Ancestral Vision. You would either be playing a bad card for the small chance of getting the card that you want or removing all 1-2 mana cards from your deck and ruining your deck just to caste Jace's Ingenuity for 3 mana.
First, this is combo land, not midrange land. Also, Ponder and Jace are too powerful for helping combo and control, yet we wouldn't have strong control or combo?
Perhaps RUG Control was the wrong title, and yes it would be midrange. The point was that BBE into AV is pretty insane, and represents more card advantage than exists in the entire format. Not happening.
As for Violent Outburst becoming desirable JUST for AV shenanigans, maybe that was a stretch, but I also wouldn't be surprised to see AV pop up in existing Cascade decks (namely Restore Balance and Living End), as well as spawning a few new wacky strategies that abuse the interaction as well.
I think Ancestral Visions is fine to come off. But I do not think Bloodbraid AND Ancestral are both fine to come off together.
And how is Modern Combo land? There are plenty of combo decks, yes, but they all typically have to play out an interactive Midrange game, unlike Legacy's combo decks. Call it whatever, but there is a difference between the two when evaluating cards like Jace, Stoneforge, and Bloodbraid Elf. Those cards are easily considered "fair" in Legacy because the combo decks are noticeably faster, thus the strength of such value cards is diluted a bit. But in Modern it's a whole different story, and the aforementioned cards become extremely dominant, and represent a level above the existing "Fair" decks.
Yes, we could probably have Ponder/Jace/Stoneforge/BBE all come off, and then let some of the combo decks run wild, and we'd have a completely different format. Many existing decks would become obsolete, and if you weren't playing Jace or Stoneforge you'd have to have a very good reason to even attempt a "fair" deck.
Modern is enough different from Legacy that it's fun in very different ways. I love Legacy, but I don't want to see all the hyper-powerful "fair" cards make their way into Modern. I don't think people realize how delicate a balance it is between the two. The difference between Jace/Stoneforge and everything in Modern is a very significant increase in power.
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
If he doesn't add to the power of the decks then why is he becoming more and more ubiquitously used?
Who would have thought a good card will see increasingly amounts of play? That case we should definitely ban Lightning Bolt in Modern and Island in Legacy.
Is this seriously the best people can come up with in favour of banning DRS? You don't like a card in Modern, well sad day for you.
Seems odd since I only recently talked about how it might be more trouble then it's worth. However, I've voted for it since I think a BB unban would shake the format up more then Wild Nacatl would.
Last thing I would want is for them to unban a card that doesn't make a darn difference in today's metagame.
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Ponder: Any actual reason why, or are you just making a statement?
Real reason? Its the best cantrip ever printed, short of brainstorm, which is not realy a cantrip anyways. Is that reason good enough for you?
I dont care if twin doesnt break the turn 4 rule with it, cantrips add consistency, not speed, so i dont see the point to that example.
Yes, delver variants might need some help, but i think a weaker card like pre ordain could do the trick. Ponder is strong enough that all blue decks can play it with no drawbacks, even if you are not tempo/combo.
I mean, why not? UWR runs a playset of think twices just to hit their lands early on, so why whouldnt you run this? Even if its not instant, its still a pretty strong cheap effect.
No, i dont think modern needs ponder, if anything, pre ordain should suffice.
As I stated in some other post, I'd be quite revolutionary with the banned list and unban many cards to shake the format. However, after reviewing the reasons given by Wizards to justify the ban list, I don't think there will be many changes (and they could even be in the opposite direction!).
If they want to help control/aggro-control arise, there are three candidates to be unbanned: Bitterblossom, Sword of the Meek and Ancestral Vision. I don't think they'll pick up (and also think they shouldn't) more than one card from this list, since Bitterblossom has been played in the past with both the Thopter Foundry combo in Extended or with Ancestral Vision in Standard. I think that Bitterblossom, since it allows a new archetype to appear, is the most likely to make it from that list, but it has many cons against: it could be used in more decks than just Faeries, and Wizards (or the players surveyed in their marketing studies) hate Faeries.
The other card that could get unbanned is Wild Nacatl. However, I don't know if the current aggressive decks (Burn, Gruul and Merfolks) are consolidated enough in the metagame to not be vanished by the return of the kitty, although Wizards has printed many cards for these decks to improve their quality in the last expansions.
Then there is the extended thought that BGx decks are the dominant strategies in Modern, so Deathrite Shaman could get banned. I strongly disagree with this opinion, but there are people who like underpowered formats.
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DRS is the upper (or lower depending on your mindset) limit of power level in Modern. IF it hits the bullet it would be a major hit for the Modern community, such as it is. You might as well pack your *hit up and go back to playing Coldsnap sealed if you think otherwise.
EDIT: Or we could dub it the Homelands format.
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DRS gets banned for sure. It has made the format very stagnant. Jund is clearly the best deck and this card is clearly good in it. It lets them curve out very nicely while providing ramp and damage, as well as MB hate. Simply put, the card does everything. There's a reason other decks like Melira Pod play it, it's insanely good. I also dislike that it's MB grave hate, because I generally think grave hate should come from the board to allow those decks to be playable. You simply can't play Dredge in a format with DRS (as we've seen in Legacy). I really think this card stifles creativity and it's the best card to see banned. They really pushed it for Legacy but messed up Modern in the process.
Wild Nacatl unbanned. It doesn't do anything and the deck isn't any better than Jund. You can still beat the deck if you want it and it gives us more aggro options. Right now it's mostly Affinity for aggro and that's certainly a problem. I want to see some more green creature decks.
Preordain unbanned. I don't think both need to be on there given the state of Storm. They banned both knowing they were too good for Storm, but now that it's unplayable, we can take it off. Control needs a boost and I think this gives them it. It also might make Storm fringe playable again. I don't think Twin gets buffed enough that it causes some concern.
Bitterblossom unbanned. It really doesn't do that much and I don't think the decks that would abuse it would be broken. It was good in Standard but that doesn't necessarily translate to Modern. Jund would probably play it over DRS when DRS gets banned, but I don't think it's better.
Honourable mention:
Jace, while I don't think is coming off, certainly could. He doesn't really break the format and would give more incentive to play control decks, since we're mostly not playing any.
What if we unban everything, what will happen than? Only 3 decks roaming Modern? Or...
It has been explained numerous times. The format would become a fast (turn 1 or 2) combo format. Without the policing cards to keep it in check. There would be zero control, turn 3 aggro would be too slow, and there would be no midrange.
As for Violent Outburst becoming desirable JUST for AV shenanigans, maybe that was a stretch, but I also wouldn't be surprised to see AV pop up in existing Cascade decks (namely Restore Balance and Living End), as well as spawning a few new wacky strategies that abuse the interaction as well.
Uh, why in the world would Living End or Restore Balance run Ancestral Vision? All it does is make it instead of being guaranteed to cascade into the combo card, you now have a chance of missing it and hitting Ancestral Vision instead. And while drawing three cards is decent, it's a far cry from winning the game, which is what Living End and Restore Balance can pull off.
/slap
Why on earth would they unban a card based on a new hatebear (that no one will play maindeck and probably not even in the SB) alone?!?!?!
Probably because its unbanning is not based on the new hatebear alone. Even before that card was spoiled I thought Ancestral Vision would be a very unreasonable unban.
The format didn't become stagnant after RTR, it just got populated with dissatisfied Delver players.
Almost every proven deck ( with the exception of Tron, Scapeshift and UWR ) the last twelve months has over performed in comparison to other decks, it's just BGx that seems to be the favourite whipping boy for all Modern's problems.
Even if they did ban DRS or anything else from BGx it wouldn't miraculously make other archtypes ( Control and Tempo ) more viable if there isn't anything to help push them up higher. That is a problem that can only be solved with better unbans, reprints and new support. All WotC would accomplish is simply shuffling around what decks already perform well.
As much as I love incredibly pushed cards, I could see DRS getting the banhammer. It's forcing a lot of decks towards a BGx shell, and Wizards tends to frown upon that sort of thing. Maybe we could get BBE back if it was banned.
Almost every proven deck ( with the exception of Tron, Scapeshift and UWR ) the last twelve months has over performed in comparison to other decks, it's just BGx that seems to be the favourite whipping boy for all Modern's problems.
BGx is the only deck in Modern where I routinely hear complaints from people about being "beaten by the opponent's wallet". It's a common enough refrain in MTG over the years, but BGx really is vastly more expensive than other Modern shells. Rock, Jund and Junk aren't over-represented in the meta, but players hate losing to decks that cost twice as much (and also to decks like burn that cost next to nothing).
I honestly think that's why it is the whipping boy. There is a cost barrier to playing BGx that is much higher than other Modern decks, so it is easy to chalk up a loss to money. It's inaccurate, but what can ya do?
BGx is the only deck in Modern where I routinely hear complaints from people about being "beaten by the opponent's wallet". It's a common enough refrain in MTG over the years, but BGx really is vastly more expensive than other Modern shells. Rock, Jund and Junk aren't over-represented in the meta, but players hate losing to decks that cost twice as much (and also to decks like burn that cost next to nothing).
The funny thing is that Burn has a terrific matchup against Jund.
BGx is the only deck in Modern where I routinely hear complaints from people about being "beaten by the opponent's wallet". It's a common enough refrain in MTG over the years, but BGx really is vastly more expensive than other Modern shells. Rock, Jund and Junk aren't over-represented in the meta, but players hate losing to decks that cost twice as much (and also to decks like burn that cost next to nothing).
I honestly think that's why it is the whipping boy. There is a cost barrier to playing BGx that is much higher than other Modern decks, so it is easy to chalk up a loss to money. It's inaccurate, but what can ya do?
If I had a dollar every time someone made the cop out excuse they won morally because I was either running a non-original "goodstuff.dec" or "sleeved cash.dec," I'd be the 1%.
Money is not a good reason to ban something. Take that leg away and all the people who foolishly want fetchlands have nothing to stand on.
Well I realize you were responding to the Miracle situation, which objectively i can probably agree that Jace doesn't make them insane by himself. He just brings insane to the table without needing the help of a "Miracle". heh.
But I don't agree that "only the fair decks would run Jace." Maybe maindeck, he would be primarily a 4-of in U/W/R control-style decks. Than he might fluctuate from 2-4 copies in something like U/R Delver, but I'm pretty darn sure RUG Delver would emerge as the strongest Delver deck and they would probably run 4. Finally, combo decks like Twin would probably just Sideboard a few copies of Jace, as we've seen in the past. In short, nearly every blue deck would at some point, have the desire to run some number of Jaces in the 75. Even if wasn't all the time and all 4 copies in every deck, it would be nearly ubiquitous amongst blue mages.
Would Storm run Jace? Griselbrand Reanimator? Ad Nauseam? Amulet of Vigor? I somehow doubt that they would.
We'll just go ahead and call this bias then. I'm not excited when my opponent resolves Stoneforge against me in Legacy, even when I do have the Bolt/Stifle/Fow. Unless I Spell Snare the card, it's just bad value no matter how you slice it. Yes we have answers (like Snare) in Modern, but it doesn't detract from how powerful Mystic-->Batterskull/Sword is. Unless we want ALL the White decks to become "Blade" variants, this is just too unhealthy for Modern.
You are probably right. However, I do think that SFM would be fine in the format if Batterskull was banned.
Yes, Melira Pod easily benefits more from GSZ than the other variants. Yes Chord finds all the pieces. Would a split be reasonable? Probably. The problem with GSZ though isn't just that it pushes Pod even harder, it's that every Green creature deck gets insanely consistent. And they all begin to resemble each other. Every green deck would have access to this standardized GSZ shell:
....and it would take a lot to skip out on this powerful little tutor package. GSZ is pretty cool and makes for interesting plays, I will admit, but it's still a little unhealthy, and definitely pushes the power level and consistency farther than existing decks.
I don't think that Birds/Hierarch would have to be run, Dryad Arbor provides just as much acceleration for one less mana. I also don't think that consistency would be a problem. I personally believe that a deck being consistent doesn't mean that it should be banned if it can't win before turn 4. RG Tron can consistently get Tron on turn 3. Does that mean that Sylvan Scrying should be banned? Also, should card diversity really be a reason to ban a card? The decks are still different, they are just running a few similar cards. This is just like people who say that Lightning Bolt should be banned because it is run in every red deck. If the card isn't broken, it shouldn't be banned. Also, if GSZ was unbanned we'd be able to see decks like Bant and Counter-Cat again.
I'll go ahead and agree that IF all those decks needed the help, Preordain would still be fine. I'm not sure that U/R or RUG Delver need the help though. And you're missing the part where Twin and U/W/R, which are essentially both Tier 1, both get stronger as well. Twin doesn't need to break the turn 4 rule to become a stronger deck. U/W/R doesn't need a better cantrip to compete with the other tier 1 decks, it just won a GP!
I'm all for Ponder OR Preordain coming off, maybe not yet, but someday soon. But I'm not kidding myself about the kind of power they lend to existing decks, let alone possibly pushing those Tier 2 combo decks into the realm of too strong.
RUG Delver really hasn't done much in Modern. Also, look at the format. There is so little tempo in it. Even if Preordain was unbanned it wouldn't be enough. The format needs a cantrip that can flip delver even more easily than Serum Visions (which Preordain doesn't do). It also needs better card selection. And as I said, the worst thing that could happen with WUR Midrange and Splinter Twin is that they'd get to the point at which they'd be able to contain BGx. And do you remember why they were banned? They were banned for making decks too consistent. All of the decks that could easily break the turn 4 rule and could use the cantrips were banned out of the format. Decks winning consistently on turn 4 was never against the guidelines of the format.
Perhaps RUG Control was the wrong title, and yes it would be midrange. The point was that BBE into AV is pretty insane, and represents more card advantage than exists in the entire format. Not happening.
While this is true, running a RUG deck and not running counterspells would concede the spell-based combo matchups. I don't think that a midrange deck with no way to interact with spell-based combo would dominate the format. The problem with BBE is that it makes Jund too powerful, but I was advocating raising the power-level of the whole format. It wouldn't be too powerful in a format with turn 3 Batterskulls and other powerful things.
As for Violent Outburst becoming desirable JUST for AV shenanigans, maybe that was a stretch, but I also wouldn't be surprised to see AV pop up in existing Cascade decks (namely Restore Balance and Living End), as well as spawning a few new wacky strategies that abuse the interaction as well.
Running AV in a cascade-combo deck defeats the point. Restore Balance wins games. Living End wins games. If you put Ancestral Vision in there, you are losing consistency just to draw a few cards. What is worse is that in Restore Balance you actively don't want to draw cards. So you are not only reducing the deck's win percentage by 50%, but you are also making Restore Balance do less.
I think Ancestral Visions is fine to come off. But I do not think Bloodbraid AND Ancestral are both fine to come off together.
Again, if the format's overall power-level was raised, it would be fine.
And how is Modern Combo land? There are plenty of combo decks, yes, but they all typically have to play out an interactive Midrange game, unlike Legacy's combo decks. Call it whatever, but there is a difference between the two when evaluating cards like Jace, Stoneforge, and Bloodbraid Elf. Those cards are easily considered "fair" in Legacy because the combo decks are noticeably faster, thus the strength of such value cards is diluted a bit. But in Modern it's a whole different story, and the aforementioned cards become extremely dominant, and represent a level above the existing "Fair" decks.
Once again though, this is counteracted by giving combo Ponder, Preordain, and Seething Song (with an Electromancer or Past in Flames ban of course).
Yes, we could probably have Ponder/Jace/Stoneforge/BBE all come off, and then let some of the combo decks run wild, and we'd have a completely different format. Many existing decks would become obsolete, and if you weren't playing Jace or Stoneforge you'd have to have a very good reason to even attempt a "fair" deck.
You may be forgetting BBE Jund. So you would have Junk, Jund, Bant, WUR, RUG, BUG, WBRG, WBR, WUBG, and Azorius as midrange decks, which is more diversity than we have now and RUG Delver, UR Delver, BUG Faeries, and WUR Delver as tempo decks (which is more than we have now). The only archetype with less diversity would be control.
Modern is enough different from Legacy that it's fun in very different ways. I love Legacy, but I don't want to see all the hyper-powerful "fair" cards make their way into Modern. I don't think people realize how delicate a balance it is between the two. The difference between Jace/Stoneforge and everything in Modern is a very significant increase in power.
I wouldn't say that Jace and Stoneforge are more powerful than everything else in Modern. Compare them to Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoyf, Liliana of the Veil, and Dark Confidant. All that it would do is solve the color imbalance of the format. I don't want Modern to have Legacy's power-level, but I want it to be more powerful.
Real reason? Its the best cantrip ever printed, short of brainstorm, which is not realy a cantrip anyways. Is that reason good enough for you?
I dont care if twin doesnt break the turn 4 rule with it, cantrips add consistency, not speed, so i dont see the point to that example.
Yes, delver variants might need some help, but i think a weaker card like pre ordain could do the trick. Ponder is strong enough that all blue decks can play it with no drawbacks, even if you are not tempo/combo.
I mean, why not? UWR runs a playset of think twices just to hit their lands early on, so why whouldnt you run this? Even if its not instant, its still a pretty strong cheap effect.
No, i dont think modern needs ponder, if anything, pre ordain should suffice.
The point of the example with Twin is that there is no reason to ban it. Why should cards be banned for making turn 4 decks too consistent?
Preordain wouldn't help Delver enough. It is worse at flipping Delver than Serum Visions (Visions draws a card and then scries 2, Preordain makes you draw after you scry. Because of this, it won't help you flip Delver unless if you reveal 2 instants or sorceries).
And what is wrong with almost every blue deck playing Ponder? All that that means is that we'd have another card like Lightning Bolt. That isn't banworthy. Ponder isn't either.
I was thinking that they could ban puresteel paladin because it breaks the turn 3 rule...
how come? Easy! Steel cheeri0s
Basically you run a lot of equipments and zero cost cards like mox opals. So you wait till puresteel hits, then you start dumping all the 0 cost artifacts and draw a bunch of cards. If the combo fizzles, cast retract and keep going. the deck gets consistency through spoils of the vault and wins through grapeshot. I don't know if it counts because burn easily beats it, but it does see t3 wins. I faced it once and it was a crazy deck. It looked awesome though XD.
Seriously, based on meta, I don't think anything needs to change. I would like to see a wild nacalt unban, but I don't know if it'll be a good idea
I was thinking that they could ban puresteel paladin because it breaks the turn 3 rule...
how come? Easy! Steel cheeri0s
Basically you run a lot of equipments and zero cost cards like mox opals. So you wait till puresteel hits, then you start dumping all the 0 cost artifacts and draw a bunch of cards. If the combo fizzles, cast retract and keep going. the deck gets consistency through spoils of the vault and wins through grapeshot. I don't know if it counts because burn easily beats it, but it does see t3 wins. I faced it once and it was a crazy deck. It looked awesome though XD.
Seriously, based on meta, I don't think anything needs to change. I would like to see a wild nacalt unban, but I don't know if it'll be a good idea
So, when the meta is stable, there shouldn't be unbans because they aren't needed, but when the meta is unstable, bans are what is needed, not unbans. When is it the right time for the several cards on the banned list that could come off to come off?
Wild Nacatl making Naya Zoo more competitive would certainly put a lot of pressure on BGx. Having two ( three if your count Merfolk ) good Aggro decks to prey on BGx instead of just one makes it harder for them to side deck.
@Valanarch
I always love your posts, since they are like small novels.
Wild Nacatl making Naya Zoo more competitive would certainly put a lot of pressure on BGx. Having two ( three if your count Merfolk ) good Aggro decks to prey on BGx instead of just one makes it harder for them to side deck.
@Valanarch
I always love your posts, since they are like small novels.
There are always several posts before I can respond, and I don't want to double post. Long posts are the only solution.
I wouldn't go that far. But if something dumb like DRS gets banned... that's time to jump ship. I enjoy modern for having a higher PL then standard... maybe legacy is the format for me
Well I realize you were responding to the Miracle situation, which objectively i can probably agree that Jace doesn't make them insane by himself. He just brings insane to the table without needing the help of a "Miracle". heh.
But I don't agree that "only the fair decks would run Jace." Maybe maindeck, he would be primarily a 4-of in U/W/R control-style decks. Than he might fluctuate from 2-4 copies in something like U/R Delver, but I'm pretty darn sure RUG Delver would emerge as the strongest Delver deck and they would probably run 4. Finally, combo decks like Twin would probably just Sideboard a few copies of Jace, as we've seen in the past. In short, nearly every blue deck would at some point, have the desire to run some number of Jaces in the 75. Even if wasn't all the time and all 4 copies in every deck, it would be nearly ubiquitous amongst blue mages.
We'll just go ahead and call this bias then. I'm not excited when my opponent resolves Stoneforge against me in Legacy, even when I do have the Bolt/Stifle/Fow. Unless I Spell Snare the card, it's just bad value no matter how you slice it. Yes we have answers (like Snare) in Modern, but it doesn't detract from how powerful Mystic-->Batterskull/Sword is. Unless we want ALL the White decks to become "Blade" variants, this is just too unhealthy for Modern.
Yes, Melira Pod easily benefits more from GSZ than the other variants. Yes Chord finds all the pieces. Would a split be reasonable? Probably. The problem with GSZ though isn't just that it pushes Pod even harder, it's that every Green creature deck gets insanely consistent. And they all begin to resemble each other. Every green deck would have access to this standardized GSZ shell:
3 DRS
4 Birds/Noble
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 GSZ
....and it would take a lot to skip out on this powerful little tutor package. GSZ is pretty cool and makes for interesting plays, I will admit, but it's still a little unhealthy, and definitely pushes the power level and consistency farther than existing decks.
I'll go ahead and agree that IF all those decks needed the help, Preordain would still be fine. I'm not sure that U/R or RUG Delver need the help though. And you're missing the part where Twin and U/W/R, which are essentially both Tier 1, both get stronger as well. Twin doesn't need to break the turn 4 rule to become a stronger deck. U/W/R doesn't need a better cantrip to compete with the other tier 1 decks, it just won a GP!
I'm all for Ponder OR Preordain coming off, maybe not yet, but someday soon. But I'm not kidding myself about the kind of power they lend to existing decks, let alone possibly pushing those Tier 2 combo decks into the realm of too strong.
Perhaps RUG Control was the wrong title, and yes it would be midrange. The point was that BBE into AV is pretty insane, and represents more card advantage than exists in the entire format. Not happening.
As for Violent Outburst becoming desirable JUST for AV shenanigans, maybe that was a stretch, but I also wouldn't be surprised to see AV pop up in existing Cascade decks (namely Restore Balance and Living End), as well as spawning a few new wacky strategies that abuse the interaction as well.
I think Ancestral Visions is fine to come off. But I do not think Bloodbraid AND Ancestral are both fine to come off together.
And how is Modern Combo land? There are plenty of combo decks, yes, but they all typically have to play out an interactive Midrange game, unlike Legacy's combo decks. Call it whatever, but there is a difference between the two when evaluating cards like Jace, Stoneforge, and Bloodbraid Elf. Those cards are easily considered "fair" in Legacy because the combo decks are noticeably faster, thus the strength of such value cards is diluted a bit. But in Modern it's a whole different story, and the aforementioned cards become extremely dominant, and represent a level above the existing "Fair" decks.
Yes, we could probably have Ponder/Jace/Stoneforge/BBE all come off, and then let some of the combo decks run wild, and we'd have a completely different format. Many existing decks would become obsolete, and if you weren't playing Jace or Stoneforge you'd have to have a very good reason to even attempt a "fair" deck.
Modern is enough different from Legacy that it's fun in very different ways. I love Legacy, but I don't want to see all the hyper-powerful "fair" cards make their way into Modern. I don't think people realize how delicate a balance it is between the two. The difference between Jace/Stoneforge and everything in Modern is a very significant increase in power.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
My deck can't handle this anymore and 6 days to go before the ban hammerz slams.
On a side note: I will pray erebos everyday to prevent an unban on SFM.
/slap
Why on earth would they unban a card based on a new hatebear (that no one will play maindeck and probably not even in the SB) alone?!?!?!
Who would have thought a good card will see increasingly amounts of play? That case we should definitely ban Lightning Bolt in Modern and Island in Legacy.
Is this seriously the best people can come up with in favour of banning DRS? You don't like a card in Modern, well sad day for you.
Seems odd since I only recently talked about how it might be more trouble then it's worth. However, I've voted for it since I think a BB unban would shake the format up more then Wild Nacatl would.
Last thing I would want is for them to unban a card that doesn't make a darn difference in today's metagame.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Real reason? Its the best cantrip ever printed, short of brainstorm, which is not realy a cantrip anyways. Is that reason good enough for you?
I dont care if twin doesnt break the turn 4 rule with it, cantrips add consistency, not speed, so i dont see the point to that example.
Yes, delver variants might need some help, but i think a weaker card like pre ordain could do the trick. Ponder is strong enough that all blue decks can play it with no drawbacks, even if you are not tempo/combo.
I mean, why not? UWR runs a playset of think twices just to hit their lands early on, so why whouldnt you run this? Even if its not instant, its still a pretty strong cheap effect.
No, i dont think modern needs ponder, if anything, pre ordain should suffice.
If they want to help control/aggro-control arise, there are three candidates to be unbanned: Bitterblossom, Sword of the Meek and Ancestral Vision. I don't think they'll pick up (and also think they shouldn't) more than one card from this list, since Bitterblossom has been played in the past with both the Thopter Foundry combo in Extended or with Ancestral Vision in Standard. I think that Bitterblossom, since it allows a new archetype to appear, is the most likely to make it from that list, but it has many cons against: it could be used in more decks than just Faeries, and Wizards (or the players surveyed in their marketing studies) hate Faeries.
The other card that could get unbanned is Wild Nacatl. However, I don't know if the current aggressive decks (Burn, Gruul and Merfolks) are consolidated enough in the metagame to not be vanished by the return of the kitty, although Wizards has printed many cards for these decks to improve their quality in the last expansions.
Then there is the extended thought that BGx decks are the dominant strategies in Modern, so Deathrite Shaman could get banned. I strongly disagree with this opinion, but there are people who like underpowered formats.
Currently sleeved:
WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
EDIT: Or we could dub it the Homelands format.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
DRS gets banned for sure. It has made the format very stagnant. Jund is clearly the best deck and this card is clearly good in it. It lets them curve out very nicely while providing ramp and damage, as well as MB hate. Simply put, the card does everything. There's a reason other decks like Melira Pod play it, it's insanely good. I also dislike that it's MB grave hate, because I generally think grave hate should come from the board to allow those decks to be playable. You simply can't play Dredge in a format with DRS (as we've seen in Legacy). I really think this card stifles creativity and it's the best card to see banned. They really pushed it for Legacy but messed up Modern in the process.
Wild Nacatl unbanned. It doesn't do anything and the deck isn't any better than Jund. You can still beat the deck if you want it and it gives us more aggro options. Right now it's mostly Affinity for aggro and that's certainly a problem. I want to see some more green creature decks.
Preordain unbanned. I don't think both need to be on there given the state of Storm. They banned both knowing they were too good for Storm, but now that it's unplayable, we can take it off. Control needs a boost and I think this gives them it. It also might make Storm fringe playable again. I don't think Twin gets buffed enough that it causes some concern.
Bitterblossom unbanned. It really doesn't do that much and I don't think the decks that would abuse it would be broken. It was good in Standard but that doesn't necessarily translate to Modern. Jund would probably play it over DRS when DRS gets banned, but I don't think it's better.
Honourable mention:
Jace, while I don't think is coming off, certainly could. He doesn't really break the format and would give more incentive to play control decks, since we're mostly not playing any.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
It has been explained numerous times. The format would become a fast (turn 1 or 2) combo format. Without the policing cards to keep it in check. There would be zero control, turn 3 aggro would be too slow, and there would be no midrange.
Uh, why in the world would Living End or Restore Balance run Ancestral Vision? All it does is make it instead of being guaranteed to cascade into the combo card, you now have a chance of missing it and hitting Ancestral Vision instead. And while drawing three cards is decent, it's a far cry from winning the game, which is what Living End and Restore Balance can pull off.
Probably because its unbanning is not based on the new hatebear alone. Even before that card was spoiled I thought Ancestral Vision would be a very unreasonable unban.
and yes, the format has been stagnant since RTR came out. anyone who has played the format since the beginning knows this.
Almost every proven deck ( with the exception of Tron, Scapeshift and UWR ) the last twelve months has over performed in comparison to other decks, it's just BGx that seems to be the favourite whipping boy for all Modern's problems.
Even if they did ban DRS or anything else from BGx it wouldn't miraculously make other archtypes ( Control and Tempo ) more viable if there isn't anything to help push them up higher. That is a problem that can only be solved with better unbans, reprints and new support. All WotC would accomplish is simply shuffling around what decks already perform well.
BGx is the only deck in Modern where I routinely hear complaints from people about being "beaten by the opponent's wallet". It's a common enough refrain in MTG over the years, but BGx really is vastly more expensive than other Modern shells. Rock, Jund and Junk aren't over-represented in the meta, but players hate losing to decks that cost twice as much (and also to decks like burn that cost next to nothing).
I honestly think that's why it is the whipping boy. There is a cost barrier to playing BGx that is much higher than other Modern decks, so it is easy to chalk up a loss to money. It's inaccurate, but what can ya do?
The funny thing is that Burn has a terrific matchup against Jund.
If I had a dollar every time someone made the cop out excuse they won morally because I was either running a non-original "goodstuff.dec" or "sleeved cash.dec," I'd be the 1%.
Money is not a good reason to ban something. Take that leg away and all the people who foolishly want fetchlands have nothing to stand on.
This
Playing against Burn with Jund is like running head on into a firing machine gun.
Would Storm run Jace? Griselbrand Reanimator? Ad Nauseam? Amulet of Vigor? I somehow doubt that they would.
You are probably right. However, I do think that SFM would be fine in the format if Batterskull was banned.
I don't think that Birds/Hierarch would have to be run, Dryad Arbor provides just as much acceleration for one less mana. I also don't think that consistency would be a problem. I personally believe that a deck being consistent doesn't mean that it should be banned if it can't win before turn 4. RG Tron can consistently get Tron on turn 3. Does that mean that Sylvan Scrying should be banned? Also, should card diversity really be a reason to ban a card? The decks are still different, they are just running a few similar cards. This is just like people who say that Lightning Bolt should be banned because it is run in every red deck. If the card isn't broken, it shouldn't be banned. Also, if GSZ was unbanned we'd be able to see decks like Bant and Counter-Cat again.
RUG Delver really hasn't done much in Modern. Also, look at the format. There is so little tempo in it. Even if Preordain was unbanned it wouldn't be enough. The format needs a cantrip that can flip delver even more easily than Serum Visions (which Preordain doesn't do). It also needs better card selection. And as I said, the worst thing that could happen with WUR Midrange and Splinter Twin is that they'd get to the point at which they'd be able to contain BGx. And do you remember why they were banned? They were banned for making decks too consistent. All of the decks that could easily break the turn 4 rule and could use the cantrips were banned out of the format. Decks winning consistently on turn 4 was never against the guidelines of the format.
While this is true, running a RUG deck and not running counterspells would concede the spell-based combo matchups. I don't think that a midrange deck with no way to interact with spell-based combo would dominate the format. The problem with BBE is that it makes Jund too powerful, but I was advocating raising the power-level of the whole format. It wouldn't be too powerful in a format with turn 3 Batterskulls and other powerful things.
Running AV in a cascade-combo deck defeats the point. Restore Balance wins games. Living End wins games. If you put Ancestral Vision in there, you are losing consistency just to draw a few cards. What is worse is that in Restore Balance you actively don't want to draw cards. So you are not only reducing the deck's win percentage by 50%, but you are also making Restore Balance do less.
Again, if the format's overall power-level was raised, it would be fine.
Once again though, this is counteracted by giving combo Ponder, Preordain, and Seething Song (with an Electromancer or Past in Flames ban of course).
You may be forgetting BBE Jund. So you would have Junk, Jund, Bant, WUR, RUG, BUG, WBRG, WBR, WUBG, and Azorius as midrange decks, which is more diversity than we have now and RUG Delver, UR Delver, BUG Faeries, and WUR Delver as tempo decks (which is more than we have now). The only archetype with less diversity would be control.
I wouldn't say that Jace and Stoneforge are more powerful than everything else in Modern. Compare them to Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoyf, Liliana of the Veil, and Dark Confidant. All that it would do is solve the color imbalance of the format. I don't want Modern to have Legacy's power-level, but I want it to be more powerful.
The point of the example with Twin is that there is no reason to ban it. Why should cards be banned for making turn 4 decks too consistent?
Preordain wouldn't help Delver enough. It is worse at flipping Delver than Serum Visions (Visions draws a card and then scries 2, Preordain makes you draw after you scry. Because of this, it won't help you flip Delver unless if you reveal 2 instants or sorceries).
And what is wrong with almost every blue deck playing Ponder? All that that means is that we'd have another card like Lightning Bolt. That isn't banworthy. Ponder isn't either.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
how come? Easy! Steel cheeri0s
Basically you run a lot of equipments and zero cost cards like mox opals. So you wait till puresteel hits, then you start dumping all the 0 cost artifacts and draw a bunch of cards. If the combo fizzles, cast retract and keep going. the deck gets consistency through spoils of the vault and wins through grapeshot. I don't know if it counts because burn easily beats it, but it does see t3 wins. I faced it once and it was a crazy deck. It looked awesome though XD.
Seriously, based on meta, I don't think anything needs to change. I would like to see a wild nacalt unban, but I don't know if it'll be a good idea
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
So, when the meta is stable, there shouldn't be unbans because they aren't needed, but when the meta is unstable, bans are what is needed, not unbans. When is it the right time for the several cards on the banned list that could come off to come off?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
@Valanarch
I always love your posts, since they are like small novels.
There are always several posts before I can respond, and I don't want to double post. Long posts are the only solution.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.