Definitely amazing against x/1 weenie decks, doesn't have the cantrip that Electrolyze has but it's also just 1/3 the cmc of Electrolyze, a discount that more than makes up for not cantripping IMO.
Maybe in a deck without U, but U1 is an excellent rate for getting a free card.
Definitely amazing against x/1 weenie decks, doesn't have the cantrip that Electrolyze has but it's also just 1/3 the cmc of Electrolyze, a discount that more than makes up for not cantripping IMO.
Maybe in a deck without U, but U1 is an excellent rate for getting a free card.
But it's 1UR.
Which, honestly, is a clunker of a cost for a splittable shock if you're not living the dream and getting the 3 for 1.
Just saying.
I completely forgot that Forked bolt is a sorcery, that's not great.
Dotmatrix: The 3 for 1 may be rare, but getting 2 for 1 twice with Snappy is pretty common. Ambushing attackers with Snappy + electrolyze also comes up a lot, so the instant speed does matter.
Fair enough.
But I'm staying to my assertion that Forked Bolt is hella mana efficient.
Also sorc speed isn't all that bad. Especially when it's one mana and can still 2-for-1.
It's straight up hyper-efficiency.
I feel that Lotus Cobra is powerful enough that it should see some play in Modern. It was a real powerhouse back in its Standard days, but I guess the difference between one drop and two drop is really what holds it back.
Except against budget decks, they are 2 mana land destruction, albeit reactive. There has to be a tempo shell that can abuse 12 Sinkholes, 8 of which cantrip.
Whether it's alongside Geist or Tarmogoyf or Delver, I'm not sure. Or even fish.
Blood Moon's a weird card.
It -is- capable of warping matchups real well as seen in Valencia, but public awareness of it will, I suspect, negatively impact its effectiveness. Once it gets to the point where people see a Red deck and immediately assume game 2 Blood Moon is part of their plan, it'll need to be benched until people forget about it again.
Simply put, it's a metagame card.
Sometimes strong, sometimes weak.
I disagree. Blood Moon will always be strong because greedy manabases will always breed strong decks with strong interactions, to go along with good nonbasic lands like Tec Edge, Mutavault, Manlands, and Tron to go along with the shocks. It's a fantastic trump card. This is why I was more or less on board with Blue Moon on my podcast moving forward: if Blood Moon will never be a bad card, why would a control deck that happens to mainboard it? I don't think it's enough for people to just "run more basics". Decks like Affinity, Jund, and Vial lists would need to take over the format for it to suddenly be awful.
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Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
All pretty limited, but they are only waiting for the right pieces to break them. Glittering wish needs a few more combo enablers so it can be copies 4-7 of a few 2 card combos. Time of need only needs a few more legends and spoils is waiting for a cheap enough combo to make it tick. For a while I was even trying to break infernal tutor and time of need with 'grandeur' until I realized that none of the grandeur abilities were worth that much effort. But all of them are just waiting for that right moment.
Almost main-deckable hate against so many things. Definitely pet cards of mine. Angel needs a less bolt-heavy metagame. Or a 2-3 cc toughness boosting creature to lead into her.
Fast mana gets better as things get more powerful. Even just T1 chalice for 1 is quite strong. Utopia sprawl is untargetable/unboltable while serving that key 1-3 ramp jump. It's waiting for a Gx control deck to come along. Or maybe for wild growth to be reprinted to buddy up with.
A lot of cards scale really well off other cards (tutors, fast mana) and are just waiting for the right pieces to crop up.
All pretty limited, but they are only waiting for the right pieces to break them. Glittering wish needs a few more combo enablers so it can be copies 4-7 of a few 2 card combos. Time of need only needs a few more legends and spoils is waiting for a cheap enough combo to make it tick. For a while I was even trying to break infernal tutor and time of need with 'grandeur' until I realized that none of the grandeur abilities were worth that much effort. But all of them are just waiting for that right moment.
Almost main-deckable hate against so many things. Definitely pet cards of mine. Angel needs a less bolt-heavy metagame. Or a 2-3 cc toughness boosting creature to lead into her.
Fast mana gets better as things get more powerful. Even just T1 chalice for 1 is quite strong. Utopia sprawl is untargetable/unboltable while serving that key 1-3 ramp jump. It's waiting for a Gx control deck to come along. Or maybe for wild growth to be reprinted to buddy up with.
A lot of cards scale really well off other cards (tutors, fast mana) and are just waiting for the right pieces to crop up.
Simian Spirit Guide and Utopia Sprawl both see play.
there's not too much glittering wish can fetch either. the thing that comes first into my mind is wargate, or something like that. haha. if it was one of those fetch card type wishes, it'd see a lot more play as a silver bullet type tutor.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
Mana Tithe. Though, considering the reason why Mana Tithe theoretically works as a card, it might be for the best it doesn't see so much play. Its strength comes from being an out of nowhere Force Spike in the last color one would expect it to come from, and once the trick is exposed it's played around with not much difficulty.
Which is why you board it out and trick them into playing around a card they think you have but you don't.
Unless they know you board it out in which case it's an endless cycle of trying to mindgame one another into submission over whether or not you seriously still have your Tithes.
Kinda like how Blood Moon can be sprung on someone just once and then evacuate the main next game while the opponent's fixated on still playing around it.
Except against budget decks, they are 2 mana land destruction, albeit reactive. There has to be a tempo shell that can abuse 12 Sinkholes, 8 of which cantrip.
Whether it's alongside Geist or Tarmogoyf or Delver, I'm not sure. Or even fish.
Really curious, what is the downside of squelch? It seems like a pretty reasonable card against a lot of decks.
Edit: Just realized it was activated and not triggered
I've given a day's worth of thought on this, and I have to say I really don't see where you going with this.
Why would you be worried about having Tithe in hand in the late game?
I mean, I can see what you mean if you're suggesting it's a terrible topdeck, but that's a path down which you'll see a lot of different cards and doesn't really speak of Mana Tithe's utility.
Wrong, Delver and Thoughtseize still can be cast. I used to play with Mana tithe in my Uw control deck... it's ok card - nothing special
comparing mana tithe with thoughtseize or delver is already wrong. you were comparing counterspell to discard spell to creature. they're on a different league.
You played JESUS?!?! I heard none of his guys stay in the graveyard, and once you think you have him beat he ALWAYS comes back to win within three turns. I like...WORSHIP him.
Mana leak is also useless late game. Hows that for an apples to apples comparison for you chaps.
While Mana Leak is bad late game there is a huge gap between x+1 mana and x+3 mana. Plus the main strike I see against Mana Tithe is that any deck that would run it would most likely also run Mana Leak which then gives you 8 cards that are bad late game rather then 4.
Oddly enough, while Mana Tithe see little to no play Force Spike would probably make it into my Delver list.
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In play: Jund Death Shadow, Grixis Control, Eldrazi Stompy, Ponza
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm
Mana leak is also useless late game. Hows that for an apples to apples comparison for you chaps.
While Mana Leak is bad late game there is a huge gap between x+1 mana and x+3 mana. Plus the main strike I see against Mana Tithe is that any deck that would run it would most likely also run Mana Leak which then gives you 8 cards that are bad late game rather then 4.
Oddly enough, while Mana Tithe see little to no play Force Spike would probably make it into my Delver list.
Mana Leak also costs more mana and cannot answer turn 1 plays.
Mana Tithe is a good card. Just because you dont see pros playing it doesnt mean its not playable.
true, but context is key. I think if mana tithe was going to show up, it would have shown up in that 19th place UW control list out of richmond but it didnt.
I think the reason is that we don't have a wasteland in the format, once you aren't seriously committed to mana denial as a strategy, cards like tithe lose a lot of value. As a perfect example, a lot of merfolk decks in legacy are cutting their wastelands for cavern of souls, and coincidentally they ended up also cutting daze which stopped having the same impact as with wasteland lists. Tithe unfortunately can really only be played in the first one or two, maybe three turns of the game and after that its totally dead. True other cards drop off as well after the early game, but most that see play have more impact and are less situationally good.
the margin of playability between leak and spike is immense, that extra mana tax is super relevant--see the middling example of spell pierce, it can't hit creatures but taxes for 2 and sees play all over the place in 'tempo' lists because it stays live longer. I actually don't think force spike would be that impressive in modern (even in blue), but I could be wrong.
I think smallpox is underplayed in modern--its not in any t1 deck. It would also make these taxing spells more relevant in conjunction.
true, but context is key. I think if mana tithe was going to show up, it would have shown up in that 19th place UW control list out of richmond but it didnt.
I think the reason is that we don't have a wasteland in the format, once you aren't seriously committed to mana denial as a strategy, cards like tithe lose a lot of value. As a perfect example, a lot of merfolk decks in legacy are cutting their wastelands for cavern of souls, and coincidentally they ended up also cutting daze which stopped having the same impact as with wasteland lists. Tithe unfortunately can really only be played in the first one or two, maybe three turns of the game and after that its totally dead. True other cards drop off as well after the early game, but most that see play have more impact and are less situationally good.
As a long time player of UW control I can tell you that the Richmond list was not very good at all. IT was clunky, had a terrible mana curve and ineffective finishers. Yes it finished 19th place, Im sure he is a great player, but if you take apart his list you can find lots of room for improvements. Check out the UW thread in deck creation for more info about this and videos. Ive tested his list verbatim and its really clunky. He either got mega lucky or is an amazing player or both.
Mana leak is also useless late game. Hows that for an apples to apples comparison for you chaps.
While Mana Leak is bad late game there is a huge gap between x+1 mana and x+3 mana. Plus the main strike I see against Mana Tithe is that any deck that would run it would most likely also run Mana Leak which then gives you 8 cards that are bad late game rather then 4.
Oddly enough, while Mana Tithe see little to no play Force Spike would probably make it into my Delver list.
Mana Leak also costs more mana and cannot answer turn 1 plays.
Mana Tithe is a good card. Just because you dont see pros playing it doesnt mean its not playable.
I can't support Mana Tithe enough. It is bonkers because players are usually so anxious to lay a solid threat down as soon as they can, and Mana Tithe can break apart a game winning play, as well as stifle a turn 1 drop like Noble Hierarch, which lets you save your Path to Exile for another threat. And who sees this coming in white? Nobody, that's who. And even though it's not a 2/1 with first strike, it rivals Thalia in use because it has the surprise factor.
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BInfect BWDeath & Taxes UBRAffinity
RBurn UBRSac Land Tendrils UBRGOops, All Spells
WUGPhelddagrif GGGOmnath, Locus of Mana BBBXiahou Dun, the One-Eyed RRRAshling, the Pilgrim BBWTeysa, Scion of Orzhov UUUTalrand, Sky Summoner UUBVela the Night-Clad GGBVhati il-Dal RUWRuhan of the Fomori
Mana Tithe. Though, considering the reason why Mana Tithe theoretically works as a card, it might be for the best it doesn't see so much play. Its strength comes from being an out of nowhere Force Spike in the last color one would expect it to come from, and once the trick is exposed it's played around with not much difficulty.
Which is why you board it out and trick them into playing around a card they think you have but you don't.
Unless they know you board it out in which case it's an endless cycle of trying to mindgame one another into submission over whether or not you seriously still have your Tithes.
Kinda like how Blood Moon can be sprung on someone just once and then evacuate the main next game while the opponent's fixated on still playing around it.
I love Mana Tithe as a one-of.
When you draw it, cast it early and counter the very first thing you can. Then, watch your opponent squirm for the rest of the match.
When Disrupt was legal in 'old Extended' I loved doing that.
I dont think a control deck makes it to 19th at richmond without being perfectly tuned, regardless of how lucky or skilled he was.
Dude, it happens. We arent talking about 1000 games we are talking about 10-12. I dont mean to imply the deck is like Goat tribal bad, its just really sub optimal when you look at what UW control has to offer. Put it this way, that guy was at like 85%-90% efficiency out of a possibly 100%. Plenty of room for improvement, but the deck will work as intended most of the time.
But it's 1UR.
Which, honestly, is a clunker of a cost for a splittable shock if you're not living the dream and getting the 3 for 1.
Just saying.
Fair enough.
But I'm staying to my assertion that Forked Bolt is hella mana efficient.
Also sorc speed isn't all that bad. Especially when it's one mana and can still 2-for-1.
It's straight up hyper-efficiency.
Credit to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the Avatar & Miraculous Recovery for the Banner.
My 540 Card Cube (WIP)
Except against budget decks, they are 2 mana land destruction, albeit reactive. There has to be a tempo shell that can abuse 12 Sinkholes, 8 of which cantrip.
Whether it's alongside Geist or Tarmogoyf or Delver, I'm not sure. Or even fish.
I disagree. Blood Moon will always be strong because greedy manabases will always breed strong decks with strong interactions, to go along with good nonbasic lands like Tec Edge, Mutavault, Manlands, and Tron to go along with the shocks. It's a fantastic trump card. This is why I was more or less on board with Blue Moon on my podcast moving forward: if Blood Moon will never be a bad card, why would a control deck that happens to mainboard it? I don't think it's enough for people to just "run more basics". Decks like Affinity, Jund, and Vial lists would need to take over the format for it to suddenly be awful.
Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
glittering wish
time of need
spoils of the vault
Infernal Tutor
All pretty limited, but they are only waiting for the right pieces to break them. Glittering wish needs a few more combo enablers so it can be copies 4-7 of a few 2 card combos. Time of need only needs a few more legends and spoils is waiting for a cheap enough combo to make it tick. For a while I was even trying to break infernal tutor and time of need with 'grandeur' until I realized that none of the grandeur abilities were worth that much effort. But all of them are just waiting for that right moment.
General hate
Suppression Field
root maze
Angel of Jubiliation
Almost main-deckable hate against so many things. Definitely pet cards of mine. Angel needs a less bolt-heavy metagame. Or a 2-3 cc toughness boosting creature to lead into her.
Fast mana:
Simian Spirit Guide
Utopia Sprawl
Fast mana gets better as things get more powerful. Even just T1 chalice for 1 is quite strong. Utopia sprawl is untargetable/unboltable while serving that key 1-3 ramp jump. It's waiting for a Gx control deck to come along. Or maybe for wild growth to be reprinted to buddy up with.
A lot of cards scale really well off other cards (tutors, fast mana) and are just waiting for the right pieces to crop up.
Simian Spirit Guide and Utopia Sprawl both see play.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
^Cards that should see more play in modern.
Mana Tithe. Though, considering the reason why Mana Tithe theoretically works as a card, it might be for the best it doesn't see so much play. Its strength comes from being an out of nowhere Force Spike in the last color one would expect it to come from, and once the trick is exposed it's played around with not much difficulty.
Which is why you board it out and trick them into playing around a card they think you have but you don't.
Unless they know you board it out in which case it's an endless cycle of trying to mindgame one another into submission over whether or not you seriously still have your Tithes.
Kinda like how Blood Moon can be sprung on someone just once and then evacuate the main next game while the opponent's fixated on still playing around it.
Really curious, what is the downside of squelch? It seems like a pretty reasonable card against a lot of decks.
Edit: Just realized it was activated and not triggered
I've given a day's worth of thought on this, and I have to say I really don't see where you going with this.
Why would you be worried about having Tithe in hand in the late game?
I mean, I can see what you mean if you're suggesting it's a terrible topdeck, but that's a path down which you'll see a lot of different cards and doesn't really speak of Mana Tithe's utility.
So is Delver of Secrets, or Thoughtseize, or for that matter a large majority of 1 mana cards.
Doesn't stop the cards being good.
comparing mana tithe with thoughtseize or delver is already wrong. you were comparing counterspell to discard spell to creature. they're on a different league.
My 180 Modern Bordered Only Cube
While Mana Leak is bad late game there is a huge gap between x+1 mana and x+3 mana. Plus the main strike I see against Mana Tithe is that any deck that would run it would most likely also run Mana Leak which then gives you 8 cards that are bad late game rather then 4.
Oddly enough, while Mana Tithe see little to no play Force Spike would probably make it into my Delver list.
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm
Mana Leak also costs more mana and cannot answer turn 1 plays.
Mana Tithe is a good card. Just because you dont see pros playing it doesnt mean its not playable.
I think the reason is that we don't have a wasteland in the format, once you aren't seriously committed to mana denial as a strategy, cards like tithe lose a lot of value. As a perfect example, a lot of merfolk decks in legacy are cutting their wastelands for cavern of souls, and coincidentally they ended up also cutting daze which stopped having the same impact as with wasteland lists. Tithe unfortunately can really only be played in the first one or two, maybe three turns of the game and after that its totally dead. True other cards drop off as well after the early game, but most that see play have more impact and are less situationally good.
the margin of playability between leak and spike is immense, that extra mana tax is super relevant--see the middling example of spell pierce, it can't hit creatures but taxes for 2 and sees play all over the place in 'tempo' lists because it stays live longer. I actually don't think force spike would be that impressive in modern (even in blue), but I could be wrong.
I think smallpox is underplayed in modern--its not in any t1 deck. It would also make these taxing spells more relevant in conjunction.
As a long time player of UW control I can tell you that the Richmond list was not very good at all. IT was clunky, had a terrible mana curve and ineffective finishers. Yes it finished 19th place, Im sure he is a great player, but if you take apart his list you can find lots of room for improvements. Check out the UW thread in deck creation for more info about this and videos. Ive tested his list verbatim and its really clunky. He either got mega lucky or is an amazing player or both.
I can't support Mana Tithe enough. It is bonkers because players are usually so anxious to lay a solid threat down as soon as they can, and Mana Tithe can break apart a game winning play, as well as stifle a turn 1 drop like Noble Hierarch, which lets you save your Path to Exile for another threat. And who sees this coming in white? Nobody, that's who. And even though it's not a 2/1 with first strike, it rivals Thalia in use because it has the surprise factor.
B Infect
BW Death & Taxes
UBR Affinity
R Burn
UBR Sac Land Tendrils
UBRG Oops, All Spells
WUG Phelddagrif
GGG Omnath, Locus of Mana
BBB Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
RRR Ashling, the Pilgrim
BBW Teysa, Scion of Orzhov
UUU Talrand, Sky Summoner
UUB Vela the Night-Clad
GGB Vhati il-Dal
RUW Ruhan of the Fomori
I love Mana Tithe as a one-of.
When you draw it, cast it early and counter the very first thing you can. Then, watch your opponent squirm for the rest of the match.
When Disrupt was legal in 'old Extended' I loved doing that.
Dude, it happens. We arent talking about 1000 games we are talking about 10-12. I dont mean to imply the deck is like Goat tribal bad, its just really sub optimal when you look at what UW control has to offer. Put it this way, that guy was at like 85%-90% efficiency out of a possibly 100%. Plenty of room for improvement, but the deck will work as intended most of the time.
SOrry if I was unclear before.