Why Tasigur as the box topper? They have all of this in the set, and they picked Tasigur... and not even the GOOD banana Tasigur, but the girly man wierd Tasigur. Yes, I know he is always wierd and girly, but no Banana?!
New tasigur art looks like a thin chinese man. No banana, because he already eaten all.
so those who pre-ordered boxes should feel more secure in their purchase right? looks like a lot of juicy reprints at rare/uncommon.
Given the supply, I think people who bought a box or two are fine, but the real winners are the people who are going to buy singles. The floor is the distributor price of a box and it will be a race to that bottom cost. During that period, something has to give and it isn't going to be Noble Hierarch. My guess is that Karn Liberated, Liliana of the Veil, Cavern of Souls, and a few others will carry the majority of the box cost while the remainder all drop in value.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Which is part of the point, right? For the prices to fall?
Personally, I am laughing at the set reveals as of now, because it straight up looks like "hey, if you want to build dredge or bogles we are just gonna print the whole thing for you." I understand that's not 100% true, but a TON of those cards are being printed. Even faithless looting and conflagrate for dredge? Yes please!
I was talking about going eldrazi tron, now it feels like I may just pick up a bunch of bogles cards to troll my LGS. I dunno, I'll see where prices settle.
Which is part of the point, right? For the prices to fall?
Personally, I am laughing at the set reveals as of now, because it straight up looks like "hey, if you want to build dredge or bogles we are just gonna print the whole thing for you." I understand that's not 100% true, but a TON of those cards are being printed. Even faithless looting and conflagrate for dredge? Yes please!
I was talking about going eldrazi tron, now it feels like I may just pick up a bunch of bogles cards to troll my LGS. I dunno, I'll see where prices settle.
The reason I get frustrated with Wizards of the Coast is that they know they have the blueprint for a top tier game, but don't properly control the costs for the long term support to get people outside of dedicated whales (that would be me and probably a lot of the forum) to really put down for it. I think they are trying to rectify that with Arena, and are clearly trying to find formats of play that are popular, fairly costed on the second hand market, and can keep players interested in the game after the novelty of standard wears thin.
Imagine a world where all the top cards like Liliana of the Veil, Noble Heirarch, Karn Liberated, etc, were no more than 30 each. We'd all have multiple modern decks and swap between them, plus if someone new came to the table we wouldn't feel weird saying "hey, want to join in?" and pass them a deck other than burn or boggles.
That is the kind of thing I wanted with Magic the Gathering, and that's exactly what Wizards of the Coast can not provide. Hence why I moved to Force of Will even though the support is god awful. I can build multiple decks and if someone wants to play force I just pass them a deck and we go to town. That and their precons don't suck and feel like they were cobbled together by monkeys.
I just think that MtG is too old and is going to go the way of the Country Western. My parents were super into Westerns and collecting plastic minis because that was the thing back in the day. The only reason they didn't do it like we do with magic is that they were from the times of post WW2 where victory gardens existed and resources were thin.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Indeed. I dont, and wont, understand the thinking that someone should be able to just say 'I'm going to play Jund' and not expect to pay a significant amount of money.
A huge part of this game to some people, is the value in the cards themselves, and Wizards is aware of it. To lament that fact, is to willfully ignore that there are multiple types of people being appeased here by Wizards, and they all share in keeping the game going.
I dont, and wont, understand the thinking that someone should be able to just say 'I'm going to play Jund' and not expect to pay a significant amount of money.
And want that queen on your chess board? Why do you expect to pay less than a grand?
There are alternative worlds, and not hard to imagine, where Magic is more popular and easier to enter. Practically every single e-Sport has nearly no cost of entry and make more money than Magic for both its pro players and makers.
His comment hardly seems like spitting on someone, no? You're neglecting the "e-" in e-Sports. Trying to maintain a physical product alongside an identical electronic one is a balancing act that League of Legends, etc. don't have to contend with.
That's not to say I think that WoTC is nailing their handling of products, but we have to at least acknowledge the difficulty of the task. You can't create a wildly successful cardboard game in the 90s and port it in the 2010s to a no-cost e-Sport without worrying about cannibalizing your own sales.
I dont, and wont, understand the thinking that someone should be able to just say 'I'm going to play Jund' and not expect to pay a significant amount of money.
And want that queen on your chess board? Why do you expect to pay less than a grand?
There are alternative worlds, and not hard to imagine, where Magic is more popular and easier to enter. Practically every single e-Sport has nearly no cost of entry and make more money than Magic for both its pro players and makers.
Don't spit on people having different views.
I'm not spitting on anyone, but your comparison is pointless when a 'chess set' for $400 is factually as competitive as someone else's that costs $1800.
Just because you want that other one (Jund) doesn't mean what you can afford (Storm or Burn) represents a barrier to entry to the format.
So no, I won't spit on anyone, but I'll glad know they are wrong.
Oh, and Arena is free. It's fun.
I had to pay for Overwatch, it's fun. I paid way too much for Modern, but it's been fun.
Frankly, both your answers fall in the category of "I won't even try to listen."
The post and point that was under discussion was that Wizards could easily manage Modern and Modern Master sets to ensure there are no 100$ cards, to make the format monetarily accessible, which could help make the game more popular. You both chose to focus on the analogies instead of the subject.
And yes, saying "I don't and won't understand X" is paying no respect for X. It's a passive-aggressive wording way of saying X is a worthless idea.
Thats not the issue though. Could Wizards manage the format via reprints to keep cards individually under $100, and would this be a good thing. Yes.
Does Jund being inaccessible to most on a whim, is not however an issue. For context, this is the problem.
Imagine a world where all the top cards like Liliana of the Veil, Noble Heirarch, Karn Liberated, etc, were no more than 30 each. We'd all have multiple modern decks and swap between them, plus if someone new came to the table we wouldn't feel weird saying "hey, want to join in?" and pass them a deck other than burn or boggles.
What is being stated here, is that passing someone Burn, or Bogles, or Storm, is somehow 'lesser' than passing them Jund. First of all, its a false statement from a competitive basis, ans I would rate Burn, Bogles AND Storm as better than Jund (going from the Liliana of the Veil comment) and second, its implying a cheap option is inherently 'weird'.
Those decks are valid, competitive, and cheap, relative to the general costs of the format.
So no, I dont understand that as an issue. I dont understand how having decks at various price points is problematic in an unregulated, unenforced environment.
I'm not some filthy capitalist either, but Colt's implication that its 'weird' to pass someone a cheaper option instead of that deck costing more than my car, is the issue here.
You seem to think the discussion was about keeping the cost's under some arbitrary number, but thats on you.
Imagine a world where all the top cards like Liliana of the Veil, Noble Heirarch, Karn Liberated, etc, were no more than 30 each. We'd all have multiple modern decks and swap between them, plus if someone new came to the table we wouldn't feel weird saying "hey, want to join in?" and pass them a deck other than burn or boggles.
What is being stated here, is that passing someone Burn, or Bogles, or Storm, is somehow 'lesser' than passing them Jund. First of all, its a false statement from a competitive basis, ans I would rate Burn, Bogles AND Storm as better than Jund (going from the Liliana of the Veil comment) and second, its implying a cheap option is inherently 'weird'.
I'm not some filthy capitalist either, but Colt's implication that its 'weird' to pass someone a cheaper option instead of that deck costing more than my car, is the issue here.
You seem to think the discussion was about keeping the cost's under some arbitrary number, but thats on you.
Um, I understood the comment as meaning the exact opposite, namely, that passing someone new an expensive deck is "weird," whereas passing them a cheap deck doesn't feel weird. Colt can clarify the original intent if desired, but I can relate personally to the comment. Before getting (back) into Magic, I showed up at an LGS just to look around and talk to people, and someone said "we're about to play Modern, here, borrow this deck. Let me quickly show you how it works." I later realized how much it was worth and was flabbergasted. This was the first time I had ever seen a Tarmogoyf, or a fetchland... The idea that you would hand over a ~$1k deck of cards to a complete stranger like that felt, in retrospect, quite "weird." But fortunately, he didn't let that stop him from loaning the deck out, and the friendly gesture helped bring me into the game. FWIW, the deck he himself played: Storm.
(What to conclude from this as far as what should happen in the world of reprints, etc.? I'm not sure, honestly.)
Well, list of pick ups I got now that the dust settled with the new Masters Set. I'm not sure where we will see reprints on these, but I'm hoping they fit them in somewhere somehow...
1) 8th-9th edition Tron Lands: These are literally the closest thing to modern border on tron lands we've got and they are ancient by game standards. I just grabbed my playset today because I'm just not seeing them print these in the near future. This card is used in three formats so something has to give eventually.
2) Dictate of Erabos: Commander all-star and I think Wedge actually pointed this one out before I did. This guy has been climbing for a while and will keep going up thanks to all the Maren and Prosh decks wanting him. I also use it in some fringe modern decks, but not too many.
4) Manamorphose: I am pretty sure the ship sailed on this one already thanks to Wedge. I got a playset weeks before all the cards were spoiled for the new masters set since it didn't look like they were heading towards that kind of direction.
Cards that I'm totally expecting a reprint on in the next couple of months because of equity:
1) Shadowborne Apostle, Relentless Rats, Pack Rat: Because these cards could be printed into the ground and they would still be worth nearly a dollar a piece from people wanting to make a deck of 26x apostles and some win con. It's like the right of passage for newbies: To play the game of magic, they must beat the rat deck. I mean, if a player can't kill a rat deck, may the gods have mercy when they see a humans deck for the first time.
2) Manamorphose: It's really not that powerful and can fix just about any combination of decks that use red or green in limited.
3) Ancient Ziggurat: Fringe play card that is mostly the victim of an ancient print run. Probably some budget supplementary set.
4) Zendikar Fetchlands: Yeah, this is definitely going to show up in a supplementary set of some sort in the next year. They printed it last year in MM2017 and if they are moving forward with an Arena format that lacks them, they will want to cash in on the card before they start pushing the new format.
5) Allied Fastlands: Okay, call this baseless speculation to some degree, but if they make a Nordic / Ice Age set they could easily fit them into the set without having to revisit New Phyrexia. Blackcleave Cliffs can reference volcanic territory where lava has created beds of blackened igneous rock, or refer to some major hero of villain of the north that earned the name "Blackcleave". Seachrome Coast can easily refer to a glacier or frozen beachhead.
6) Kamigawa Legendary lands: Easy reprint in any kind of supplementary set. I was expecting them to show up in commander decks, but at this rate they might save them for some other kind of product.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
So browing through the major sites, some of the preorder prices are just dumb. I mean I was going to wait anyways to pick up singles for a bit, but after seeing the starting prices and how slowly the major places drop their prices, it's going to be awhile.
5) Allied Fastlands: Okay, call this baseless speculation to some degree, but if they make a Nordic / Ice Age set they could easily fit them into the set without having to revisit New Phyrexia. Blackcleave Cliffs can reference volcanic territory where lava has created beds of blackened igneous rock, or refer to some major hero of villain of the north that earned the name "Blackcleave". Seachrome Coast can easily refer to a glacier or frozen beachhead.
Pure speculation: With Karn picking up the Sylex in the Dominaria story line, I think we're going to see Phyrexia pretty soon. And I don't see how they do a Phyrexia set without the fast lands as reprints.
Though even if that's right, how soon is "soon" is anyone's guess.
I dont play Legacy (yet) so a few of those I just dont need. Have Vengevine, Shoal, Halo, Teeg and Emmy from other decks I've put together over the last few years, or just added to.
Happy for others to be able to fill out collections though. :]
First time I've seen the ebay prices on singles from a set actually become cheaper on pre-release on ebay than they were listed on TCGPlayer. Given the boxes are going up in price I'd say get the darn singles! =p
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
First time I've seen the ebay prices on singles from a set actually become cheaper on pre-release on ebay than they were listed on TCGPlayer. Given the boxes are going up in price I'd say get the darn singles! =p
The sweet spot is usually 2-3 weeks after release. I think it still can go down once singles really hit the market. There are too many money cards in this set for rares to keep their prices. Box prices are probably just seeing a natural correction for overall current value combined with a fear that a huge demand will dry up supplies more quickly than anticipated.
Me too. Along with Phyrixian Tower. But I guess not. RL is a joke.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
New tasigur art looks like a thin chinese man. No banana, because he already eaten all.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I jumped on a second box during another 10% ebay Bucks deal. No ragrets.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Given the supply, I think people who bought a box or two are fine, but the real winners are the people who are going to buy singles. The floor is the distributor price of a box and it will be a race to that bottom cost. During that period, something has to give and it isn't going to be Noble Hierarch. My guess is that Karn Liberated, Liliana of the Veil, Cavern of Souls, and a few others will carry the majority of the box cost while the remainder all drop in value.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Personally, I am laughing at the set reveals as of now, because it straight up looks like "hey, if you want to build dredge or bogles we are just gonna print the whole thing for you." I understand that's not 100% true, but a TON of those cards are being printed. Even faithless looting and conflagrate for dredge? Yes please!
I was talking about going eldrazi tron, now it feels like I may just pick up a bunch of bogles cards to troll my LGS. I dunno, I'll see where prices settle.
The reason I get frustrated with Wizards of the Coast is that they know they have the blueprint for a top tier game, but don't properly control the costs for the long term support to get people outside of dedicated whales (that would be me and probably a lot of the forum) to really put down for it. I think they are trying to rectify that with Arena, and are clearly trying to find formats of play that are popular, fairly costed on the second hand market, and can keep players interested in the game after the novelty of standard wears thin.
Imagine a world where all the top cards like Liliana of the Veil, Noble Heirarch, Karn Liberated, etc, were no more than 30 each. We'd all have multiple modern decks and swap between them, plus if someone new came to the table we wouldn't feel weird saying "hey, want to join in?" and pass them a deck other than burn or boggles.
That is the kind of thing I wanted with Magic the Gathering, and that's exactly what Wizards of the Coast can not provide. Hence why I moved to Force of Will even though the support is god awful. I can build multiple decks and if someone wants to play force I just pass them a deck and we go to town. That and their precons don't suck and feel like they were cobbled together by monkeys.
I just think that MtG is too old and is going to go the way of the Country Western. My parents were super into Westerns and collecting plastic minis because that was the thing back in the day. The only reason they didn't do it like we do with magic is that they were from the times of post WW2 where victory gardens existed and resources were thin.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Spirits
Agreed that those are fine. They are competitive decks that demand sideboard cards on game 2.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
A huge part of this game to some people, is the value in the cards themselves, and Wizards is aware of it. To lament that fact, is to willfully ignore that there are multiple types of people being appeased here by Wizards, and they all share in keeping the game going.
Dont like it? Play Arena.
Spirits
And want that queen on your chess board? Why do you expect to pay less than a grand?
There are alternative worlds, and not hard to imagine, where Magic is more popular and easier to enter. Practically every single e-Sport has nearly no cost of entry and make more money than Magic for both its pro players and makers.
Don't spit on people having different views.
That's not to say I think that WoTC is nailing their handling of products, but we have to at least acknowledge the difficulty of the task. You can't create a wildly successful cardboard game in the 90s and port it in the 2010s to a no-cost e-Sport without worrying about cannibalizing your own sales.
I'm not spitting on anyone, but your comparison is pointless when a 'chess set' for $400 is factually as competitive as someone else's that costs $1800.
Just because you want that other one (Jund) doesn't mean what you can afford (Storm or Burn) represents a barrier to entry to the format.
So no, I won't spit on anyone, but I'll glad know they are wrong.
Oh, and Arena is free. It's fun.
I had to pay for Overwatch, it's fun. I paid way too much for Modern, but it's been fun.
Spirits
The post and point that was under discussion was that Wizards could easily manage Modern and Modern Master sets to ensure there are no 100$ cards, to make the format monetarily accessible, which could help make the game more popular. You both chose to focus on the analogies instead of the subject.
And yes, saying "I don't and won't understand X" is paying no respect for X. It's a passive-aggressive wording way of saying X is a worthless idea.
Does Jund being inaccessible to most on a whim, is not however an issue. For context, this is the problem.
What is being stated here, is that passing someone Burn, or Bogles, or Storm, is somehow 'lesser' than passing them Jund. First of all, its a false statement from a competitive basis, ans I would rate Burn, Bogles AND Storm as better than Jund (going from the Liliana of the Veil comment) and second, its implying a cheap option is inherently 'weird'.
Those decks are valid, competitive, and cheap, relative to the general costs of the format.
So no, I dont understand that as an issue. I dont understand how having decks at various price points is problematic in an unregulated, unenforced environment.
I'm not some filthy capitalist either, but Colt's implication that its 'weird' to pass someone a cheaper option instead of that deck costing more than my car, is the issue here.
You seem to think the discussion was about keeping the cost's under some arbitrary number, but thats on you.
Spirits
Um, I understood the comment as meaning the exact opposite, namely, that passing someone new an expensive deck is "weird," whereas passing them a cheap deck doesn't feel weird. Colt can clarify the original intent if desired, but I can relate personally to the comment. Before getting (back) into Magic, I showed up at an LGS just to look around and talk to people, and someone said "we're about to play Modern, here, borrow this deck. Let me quickly show you how it works." I later realized how much it was worth and was flabbergasted. This was the first time I had ever seen a Tarmogoyf, or a fetchland... The idea that you would hand over a ~$1k deck of cards to a complete stranger like that felt, in retrospect, quite "weird." But fortunately, he didn't let that stop him from loaning the deck out, and the friendly gesture helped bring me into the game. FWIW, the deck he himself played: Storm.
(What to conclude from this as far as what should happen in the world of reprints, etc.? I'm not sure, honestly.)
It's just paper, end of day.
Spirits
1) 8th-9th edition Tron Lands: These are literally the closest thing to modern border on tron lands we've got and they are ancient by game standards. I just grabbed my playset today because I'm just not seeing them print these in the near future. This card is used in three formats so something has to give eventually.
2) Dictate of Erabos: Commander all-star and I think Wedge actually pointed this one out before I did. This guy has been climbing for a while and will keep going up thanks to all the Maren and Prosh decks wanting him. I also use it in some fringe modern decks, but not too many.
3) Eidolon of the Great Revel: Yeah, we aren't seeing him again for a while...
4) Manamorphose: I am pretty sure the ship sailed on this one already thanks to Wedge. I got a playset weeks before all the cards were spoiled for the new masters set since it didn't look like they were heading towards that kind of direction.
Cards that I'm totally expecting a reprint on in the next couple of months because of equity:
1) Shadowborne Apostle, Relentless Rats, Pack Rat: Because these cards could be printed into the ground and they would still be worth nearly a dollar a piece from people wanting to make a deck of 26x apostles and some win con. It's like the right of passage for newbies: To play the game of magic, they must beat the rat deck. I mean, if a player can't kill a rat deck, may the gods have mercy when they see a humans deck for the first time.
2) Manamorphose: It's really not that powerful and can fix just about any combination of decks that use red or green in limited.
3) Ancient Ziggurat: Fringe play card that is mostly the victim of an ancient print run. Probably some budget supplementary set.
4) Zendikar Fetchlands: Yeah, this is definitely going to show up in a supplementary set of some sort in the next year. They printed it last year in MM2017 and if they are moving forward with an Arena format that lacks them, they will want to cash in on the card before they start pushing the new format.
5) Allied Fastlands: Okay, call this baseless speculation to some degree, but if they make a Nordic / Ice Age set they could easily fit them into the set without having to revisit New Phyrexia. Blackcleave Cliffs can reference volcanic territory where lava has created beds of blackened igneous rock, or refer to some major hero of villain of the north that earned the name "Blackcleave". Seachrome Coast can easily refer to a glacier or frozen beachhead.
6) Kamigawa Legendary lands: Easy reprint in any kind of supplementary set. I was expecting them to show up in commander decks, but at this rate they might save them for some other kind of product.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Pure speculation: With Karn picking up the Sylex in the Dominaria story line, I think we're going to see Phyrexia pretty soon. And I don't see how they do a Phyrexia set without the fast lands as reprints.
Though even if that's right, how soon is "soon" is anyone's guess.
Modern: Storm
Legacy: ANT
Spirits
4 Vengevine
4 Back to Basics
4 Disrupting Shoal
2 Runed Halo
4 Through the Breach
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Happy for others to be able to fill out collections though. :]
Spirits
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero