I'm not surprised Wafo-Tapa's list did well. New England is notoriously control-oriented, which for the purposes of a competitive Modern event includes BGx decks. There were also quite a few pro players there (you couldn't shake a stick without hitting a European stopping in Boston on the way to PT Portland). Wafo-Tapa's list seems like a strong meta call given that info.
How is it helping control? It gives control a deck they have a decent chance against assuming the draw isn't complete *****. I don't think control needs anymore help or anything need to turn the format into a blue format.
I just would like it if more Control decks like WUR and Blue Moon did better. Burn being good against BGx is another good thing about it because it helps the metagame cope with that shell.
Blue based control doesn't need anymore help. Its already got the second best combination of colors (mostly being UR) in the format. Nothing, not agro, not combo, not control, nothing needs any sort of special attention or unbannings. Everything is finally good balanced. Not to mention if blue based decks did better then people would switch the meta to a heavier GB/x shell to combat this which would make the format resemble pre-M14 modern.
Good point.
How does aggro not need help? There are only two viable aggro decks, Affinity and Fish, and Fish doesn't even come close to consistently placing like Affinity does. Aggro needs help, but help won't come until Wizards gravitates back to "synergy based" aggro decks.
Also, about Blue control decks ... UWR is the only tier 1 Blue control deck. Esper and Grixis might one day be viable but they suffer from manabase issues. Those mana issues won't be solved until Onslaught fetchlands are reprinted, then we will be able to better judge what kind of power they hold in the format, until then we have only 1 tier 1 Blue-based control deck with maybe a tier 1.5 control deck in the form of Blue Moon.
When i said good point, I was agreeing that more Control will lead to more BGx which will be annoying. I agree that Aggro and Control both need help.
I just would like it if more Control decks like WUR and Blue Moon did better. Burn being good against BGx is another good thing about it because it helps the metagame cope with that shell.
Blue based control doesn't need anymore help. Its already got the second best combination of colors (mostly being UR) in the format. Nothing, not agro, not combo, not control, nothing needs any sort of special attention or unbannings. Everything is finally good balanced. Not to mention if blue based decks did better then people would switch the meta to a heavier GB/x shell to combat this which would make the format resemble pre-M14 modern.
Good point.
How does aggro not need help? There are only two viable aggro decks, Affinity and Fish, and Fish doesn't even come close to consistently placing like Affinity does. Aggro needs help, but help won't come until Wizards gravitates back to "synergy based" aggro decks.
Also, about Blue control decks ... UWR is the only tier 1 Blue control deck. Esper and Grixis might one day be viable but they suffer from manabase issues. Those mana issues won't be solved until Onslaught fetchlands are reprinted, then we will be able to better judge what kind of power they hold in the format, until then we have only 1 tier 1 Blue-based control deck with maybe a tier 1.5 control deck in the form of Blue Moon.
We don't have to wait to judge their power level. Esper and a UB control list made top 32 at Boston. The decks are viable, but they aren't popular enough to put up the kind of results to be tier. It's a catch-22. If no one plays a deck then everyone says it's not a good deck because no one plays it.
While this might be true, Blue Moon had a thread on this forum that was ridiculed in Deck Creation months before the Pro Tour, it isn't always true. Sometimes players just get lucky or make good meta calls.
How does aggro not need help? There are only two viable aggro decks, Affinity and Fish, and Fish doesn't even come close to consistently placing like Affinity does. Aggro needs help, but help won't come until Wizards gravitates back to "synergy based" aggro decks.
Also, about Blue control decks ... UWR is the only tier 1 Blue control deck. Esper and Grixis might one day be viable but they suffer from manabase issues. Those mana issues won't be solved until Onslaught fetchlands are reprinted, then we will be able to better judge what kind of power they hold in the format, until then we have only 1 tier 1 Blue-based control deck with maybe a tier 1.5 control deck in the form of Blue Moon.
We don't have to wait to judge their power level. Esper and a UB control list made top 32 at Boston. The decks are viable, but they aren't popular enough to put up the kind of results to be tier. It's a catch-22. If no one plays a deck then everyone says it's not a good deck because no one plays it.
This is bad science. One data point is not enough to judge the viability of a deck or not. I'm looking into playing an Esper brew, but I'm not going to tell people that Esper is a winning strategy. The deck has manabase issues, this is known. The deck was piloted was Wafo-Tapa, on top of that fact that he's really good, luck could've also been on his side that day. If the deck keeps consistently placing then I will be the first to concede its viability, but do not use 1 data point to argue the viability of a deck. I'm sure many pros have tested Esper brews before, and for whatever reason, they always gravitate back to UWR.
You've already stated the reason. Mana issues. In addition to the mana issues, you get more counterburn/tempo style of gameplay which is more becoming in this format, I think.
Yeah I can see that. But I still think Esper can be a viable deck if they get their allied fetches sometime down the road. It might be weak versus UWR, but it might have an edge against other decks.
I just would like it if more Control decks like WUR and Blue Moon did better. Burn being good against BGx is another good thing about it because it helps the metagame cope with that shell.
Blue based control doesn't need anymore help. Its already got the second best combination of colors (mostly being UR) in the format. Nothing, not agro, not combo, not control, nothing needs any sort of special attention or unbannings. Everything is finally good balanced. Not to mention if blue based decks did better then people would switch the meta to a heavier GB/x shell to combat this which would make the format resemble pre-M14 modern.
Good point.
How does aggro not need help? There are only two viable aggro decks, Affinity and Fish, and Fish doesn't even come close to consistently placing like Affinity does. Aggro needs help, but help won't come until Wizards gravitates back to "synergy based" aggro decks.
Also, about Blue control decks ... UWR is the only tier 1 Blue control deck. Esper and Grixis might one day be viable but they suffer from manabase issues. Those mana issues won't be solved until Onslaught fetchlands are reprinted, then we will be able to better judge what kind of power they hold in the format, until then we have only 1 tier 1 Blue-based control deck with maybe a tier 1.5 control deck in the form of Blue Moon.
When i said good point, I was agreeing that more Control will lead to more BGx which will be annoying. I agree that Aggro and Control both need help.
Blue based control doesn't need anymore help. Its already got the second best combination of colors (mostly being UR) in the format. Nothing, not agro, not combo, not control, nothing needs any sort of special attention or unbannings. Everything is finally good balanced. Not to mention if blue based decks did better then people would switch the meta to a heavier GB/x shell to combat this which would make the format resemble pre-M14 modern.
Good point.
How does aggro not need help? There are only two viable aggro decks, Affinity and Fish, and Fish doesn't even come close to consistently placing like Affinity does. Aggro needs help, but help won't come until Wizards gravitates back to "synergy based" aggro decks.
Also, about Blue control decks ... UWR is the only tier 1 Blue control deck. Esper and Grixis might one day be viable but they suffer from manabase issues. Those mana issues won't be solved until Onslaught fetchlands are reprinted, then we will be able to better judge what kind of power they hold in the format, until then we have only 1 tier 1 Blue-based control deck with maybe a tier 1.5 control deck in the form of Blue Moon.
We don't have to wait to judge their power level. Esper and a UB control list made top 32 at Boston. The decks are viable, but they aren't popular enough to put up the kind of results to be tier. It's a catch-22. If no one plays a deck then everyone says it's not a good deck because no one plays it.
While this might be true, Blue Moon had a thread on this forum that was ridiculed in Deck Creation months before the Pro Tour, it isn't always true. Sometimes players just get lucky or make good meta calls.
We don't have to wait to judge their power level. Esper and a UB control list made top 32 at Boston. The decks are viable, but they aren't popular enough to put up the kind of results to be tier. It's a catch-22. If no one plays a deck then everyone says it's not a good deck because no one plays it.
This is bad science. One data point is not enough to judge the viability of a deck or not. I'm looking into playing an Esper brew, but I'm not going to tell people that Esper is a winning strategy. The deck has manabase issues, this is known. The deck was piloted was Wafo-Tapa, on top of that fact that he's really good, luck could've also been on his side that day. If the deck keeps consistently placing then I will be the first to concede its viability, but do not use 1 data point to argue the viability of a deck. I'm sure many pros have tested Esper brews before, and for whatever reason, they always gravitate back to UWR.
You've already stated the reason. Mana issues. In addition to the mana issues, you get more counterburn/tempo style of gameplay which is more becoming in this format, I think.
Yeah I can see that. But I still think Esper can be a viable deck if they get their allied fetches sometime down the road. It might be weak versus UWR, but it might have an edge against other decks.
Esper also seems pretty weak against Pod.
Yeah, I agree. Not having access to Anger is pretty big. I suppose against a deck like Pod, Esper would just try to stall in order to resolve a Hallowed Burial or keep the deck off its ladder using Shadow of Doubts.
Yeah I can see that. But I still think Esper can be a viable deck if they get their allied fetches sometime down the road. It might be weak versus UWR, but it might have an edge against other decks.
I 100% agree with you in the possibility that if they can (hopefully soon) get their enemy fetches, then it can hopefully rise to a Tier 1 competitive deck.
In relevance to the list that placed: I love the 3 shadow of doubt mainboard. I've been considering it in my UB faeries list.
It had 2 Shadow of Doubt's.
Typo. My bad.
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There is no reason being friendly and being competitive can't be synonymous.
Blue based control doesn't need anymore help. Its already got the second best combination of colors (mostly being UR) in the format. Nothing, not agro, not combo, not control, nothing needs any sort of special attention or unbannings. Everything is finally good balanced. Not to mention if blue based decks did better then people would switch the meta to a heavier GB/x shell to combat this which would make the format resemble pre-M14 modern.
Good point.
How does aggro not need help? There are only two viable aggro decks, Affinity and Fish, and Fish doesn't even come close to consistently placing like Affinity does. Aggro needs help, but help won't come until Wizards gravitates back to "synergy based" aggro decks.
Also, about Blue control decks ... UWR is the only tier 1 Blue control deck. Esper and Grixis might one day be viable but they suffer from manabase issues. Those mana issues won't be solved until Onslaught fetchlands are reprinted, then we will be able to better judge what kind of power they hold in the format, until then we have only 1 tier 1 Blue-based control deck with maybe a tier 1.5 control deck in the form of Blue Moon.
When i said good point, I was agreeing that more Control will lead to more BGx which will be annoying. I agree that Aggro and Control both need help.
How does aggro not need help? There are only two viable aggro decks, Affinity and Fish, and Fish doesn't even come close to consistently placing like Affinity does. Aggro needs help, but help won't come until Wizards gravitates back to "synergy based" aggro decks.
Also, about Blue control decks ... UWR is the only tier 1 Blue control deck. Esper and Grixis might one day be viable but they suffer from manabase issues. Those mana issues won't be solved until Onslaught fetchlands are reprinted, then we will be able to better judge what kind of power they hold in the format, until then we have only 1 tier 1 Blue-based control deck with maybe a tier 1.5 control deck in the form of Blue Moon.
We don't have to wait to judge their power level. Esper and a UB control list made top 32 at Boston. The decks are viable, but they aren't popular enough to put up the kind of results to be tier. It's a catch-22. If no one plays a deck then everyone says it's not a good deck because no one plays it.
While this might be true, Blue Moon had a thread on this forum that was ridiculed in Deck Creation months before the Pro Tour, it isn't always true. Sometimes players just get lucky or make good meta calls.
This is bad science. One data point is not enough to judge the viability of a deck or not. I'm looking into playing an Esper brew, but I'm not going to tell people that Esper is a winning strategy. The deck has manabase issues, this is known. The deck was piloted was Wafo-Tapa, on top of that fact that he's really good, luck could've also been on his side that day. If the deck keeps consistently placing then I will be the first to concede its viability, but do not use 1 data point to argue the viability of a deck. I'm sure many pros have tested Esper brews before, and for whatever reason, they always gravitate back to UWR.
You've already stated the reason. Mana issues. In addition to the mana issues, you get more counterburn/tempo style of gameplay which is more becoming in this format, I think.
Yeah I can see that. But I still think Esper can be a viable deck if they get their allied fetches sometime down the road. It might be weak versus UWR, but it might have an edge against other decks.
Esper also seems pretty weak against Pod.
Yeah, I agree. Not having access to Anger is pretty big. I suppose against a deck like Pod, Esper would just try to stall in order to resolve a Hallowed Burial or keep the deck off its ladder using Shadow of Doubts.
It just depends on how much removal and wrath esper plays. You can build your deck to be good against pod. 1 advantage esper gets (and black based control in general) is thoughseize as it is a card that is good against both combo and aggro and control. You can put infinte wraths and spot removal in your deck, but then you lose to combo. You can put infinite counters in your deck and then lose to aggro. Its a mix that allows it to operate. counters spot removal and spot discard can allow an esper deck to work.
If you took the U/B black list, added some white cards to get Path's, Supreme Verdicts/hallowed burial, Sphinx Rev's over disfigures, damnation, teachings. You'd have an esper deck that doesn't straight lose to pod. Path is worse against birds, but Path is better against bigger threats compared to disfigure.
How does aggro not need help? There are only two viable aggro decks, Affinity and Fish, and Fish doesn't even come close to consistently placing like Affinity does. Aggro needs help, but help won't come until Wizards gravitates back to "synergy based" aggro decks.
Also, about Blue control decks ... UWR is the only tier 1 Blue control deck. Esper and Grixis might one day be viable but they suffer from manabase issues. Those mana issues won't be solved until Onslaught fetchlands are reprinted, then we will be able to better judge what kind of power they hold in the format, until then we have only 1 tier 1 Blue-based control deck with maybe a tier 1.5 control deck in the form of Blue Moon.
When i said good point, I was agreeing that more Control will lead to more BGx which will be annoying. I agree that Aggro and Control both need help.
How does aggro not need help? There are only two viable aggro decks, Affinity and Fish, and Fish doesn't even come close to consistently placing like Affinity does. Aggro needs help, but help won't come until Wizards gravitates back to "synergy based" aggro decks.
Also, about Blue control decks ... UWR is the only tier 1 Blue control deck. Esper and Grixis might one day be viable but they suffer from manabase issues. Those mana issues won't be solved until Onslaught fetchlands are reprinted, then we will be able to better judge what kind of power they hold in the format, until then we have only 1 tier 1 Blue-based control deck with maybe a tier 1.5 control deck in the form of Blue Moon.
We don't have to wait to judge their power level. Esper and a UB control list made top 32 at Boston. The decks are viable, but they aren't popular enough to put up the kind of results to be tier. It's a catch-22. If no one plays a deck then everyone says it's not a good deck because no one plays it.
While this might be true, Blue Moon had a thread on this forum that was ridiculed in Deck Creation months before the Pro Tour, it isn't always true. Sometimes players just get lucky or make good meta calls.
You've already stated the reason. Mana issues. In addition to the mana issues, you get more counterburn/tempo style of gameplay which is more becoming in this format, I think.
Yeah I can see that. But I still think Esper can be a viable deck if they get their allied fetches sometime down the road. It might be weak versus UWR, but it might have an edge against other decks.
Esper also seems pretty weak against Pod.
Yeah, I agree. Not having access to Anger is pretty big. I suppose against a deck like Pod, Esper would just try to stall in order to resolve a Hallowed Burial or keep the deck off its ladder using Shadow of Doubts.
It just depends on how much removal and wrath esper plays. You can build your deck to be good against pod. 1 advantage esper gets (and black based control in general) is thoughseize as it is a card that is good against both combo and aggro and control. You can put infinte wraths and spot removal in your deck, but then you lose to combo. You can put infinite counters in your deck and then lose to aggro. Its a mix that allows it to operate. counters spot removal and spot discard can allow an esper deck to work.
If you took the U/B black list, added some white cards to get Path's, Supreme Verdicts/hallowed burial, Sphinx Rev's over disfigures, damnation, teachings. You'd have an esper deck that doesn't straight lose to pod. Path is worse against birds, but Path is better against bigger threats compared to disfigure.
While you can make an Esper list that can beat Pod, Wafo-Tapa's list only runs 4 removal spells, no maindeck 1 mana discard, and only 6 counterspells that can answer anything permanently.
The rock/Junk/Jund that top 8'd are pretty darn close to control honestly. When you are running 6-8 hand disruption and 8-11 removal spells with 4 lilianas on top of that you are control. Maybe not the control that we are used to, but that is essentially control in modern, just of a different variety.
Heck, the rock is actually classified by MTGTop8 as control...
The rock/Junk/Jund that top 8'd are pretty darn close to control honestly. When you are running 6-8 hand disruption and 8-11 removal spells with 4 lilianas on top of that you are control. Maybe not the control that we are used to, but that is essentially control in modern, just of a different variety.
Heck, the rock is actually classified by MTGTop8 as control...
I agree
It's the reason why I enjoy these decks so much. They are definitely not some random creature decks like Jund Monsters in Standard is. The focus is clearly on the disruption that you have available to you. A single Tarmogoyf is enough to clean up when the dust has settled after all.
It's also why those decks are so resilient and good in my opinion. Everybody instantly thinks about Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf when hearing of "Rock" decks but they would be bad and unable to function without the top notch discard and removal they have including Liliana of the Veil which is discard+removal+win-con in one package basically. Those are the real all-stars in the decks.
The rock/Junk/Jund that top 8'd are pretty darn close to control honestly. When you are running 6-8 hand disruption and 8-11 removal spells with 4 lilianas on top of that you are control. Maybe not the control that we are used to, but that is essentially control in modern, just of a different variety.
Heck, the rock is actually classified by MTGTop8 as control...
I agree
It's the reason why I enjoy these decks so much. They are definitely not some random creature decks like Jund Monsters in Standard is. The focus is clearly on the disruption that you have available to you. A single Tarmogoyf is enough to clean up when the dust has settled after all.
It's also why those decks are so resilient and good in my opinion. Everybody instantly thinks about Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf when hearing of "Rock" decks but they would be bad and unable to function without the top notch discard and removal they have including Liliana of the Veil which is discard+removal+win-con in one package basically. Those are the real all-stars in the decks.
Personally, I think it's a little silly that a Planeswalker like Lilly is perfectly OK, but Jace TMS is so far out of the realm of possibility...I'd argue Lilly is probably a better PW than Jace is. Anyways, I'm not sure I'd call Rock/Junk Control. They're solidly Mid-range decks imho.
The rock/Junk/Jund that top 8'd are pretty darn close to control honestly. When you are running 6-8 hand disruption and 8-11 removal spells with 4 lilianas on top of that you are control. Maybe not the control that we are used to, but that is essentially control in modern, just of a different variety.
Heck, the rock is actually classified by MTGTop8 as control...
I agree
It's the reason why I enjoy these decks so much. They are definitely not some random creature decks like Jund Monsters in Standard is. The focus is clearly on the disruption that you have available to you. A single Tarmogoyf is enough to clean up when the dust has settled after all.
It's also why those decks are so resilient and good in my opinion. Everybody instantly thinks about Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf when hearing of "Rock" decks but they would be bad and unable to function without the top notch discard and removal they have including Liliana of the Veil which is discard+removal+win-con in one package basically. Those are the real all-stars in the decks.
Personally, I think it's a little silly that a Planeswalker like Lilly is perfectly OK, but Jace TMS is so far out of the realm of possibility...I'd argue Lilly is probably a better PW than Jace is. Anyways, I'm not sure I'd call Rock/Junk Control. They're solidly Mid-range decks imho.
You don't have to tell me. Im all for unbanning Jace TMS especially as like you say Liliana of the Veil is in the same ballpark in terms of goodness.
As for Rock being midrange and not control I agree with that. Pure control is even further down on the "answers and ways to find answers" road.
But there are definitely different shades when it comes to midrange. The Rock leans more to the control side all things considered while other midrange decks like GR Monsters in Standard are definitely more on the aggro side.
The rock/Junk/Jund that top 8'd are pretty darn close to control honestly. When you are running 6-8 hand disruption and 8-11 removal spells with 4 lilianas on top of that you are control. Maybe not the control that we are used to, but that is essentially control in modern, just of a different variety.
Heck, the rock is actually classified by MTGTop8 as control...
There is no single thing that annoys me more on this forum than people using MTGTop8 to sort archetypes. Since it only has the 3 traditional archetypes. That is why decks like Jund and Delver are grouped as Aggro, Monogreen Devotion as Combo, and Rock as Control. And don't get me started on Tron. They group RG Tron as a Control deck when the only control cards that it plays are Karn, Oblivion Stone, and Pyroclasm.
The rock/Junk/Jund that top 8'd are pretty darn close to control honestly. When you are running 6-8 hand disruption and 8-11 removal spells with 4 lilianas on top of that you are control. Maybe not the control that we are used to, but that is essentially control in modern, just of a different variety.
Heck, the rock is actually classified by MTGTop8 as control...
There is no single thing that annoys me more on this forum than people using MTGTop8 to sort archetypes. Since it only has the 3 traditional archetypes. That is why decks like Jund and Delver are grouped as Aggro, Monogreen Devotion as Combo, and Rock as Control. And don't get me started on Tron. They group RG Tron as a Control deck when the only control cards that it plays are Karn, Oblivion Stone, and Pyroclasm.
Yeah why in the hell has Tron always been listed as Control on that site? It bottles my mind.
The real issue with MTG Top 8's classification of Tron is that it considers Monoblue Tron, UW Tron, and GR Tron to be the same deck. All are classified together under the umbrella of "Tron." This is especially baffling because it separates out Jund, Junk, and Rock, which are all far more similar to each other than the three Tron decks I mentioned are.
The real issue with MTG Top 8's classification of Tron is that it considers Monoblue Tron, UW Tron, and GR Tron to be the same deck. All are classified together under the umbrella of "Tron." This is especially baffling because it separates out Jund, Junk, and Rock, which are all far more similar to each other than the three Tron decks I mentioned are.
Some decks it has listed as 'Urzatron' and they could be U or Gr. Others are listed as 'Gr Tron' with literally no difference from the Gr list under 'Urzatron'.
Tomfoolery, I say.
Anyway, about the GP, I am satisfied with the increase in BGx viability, as it makes my Tron decks a little more favored in a competitive meta.
@ People talking about esper control not being viable
I've said in several other threads that what esper needs to be viable is not allied fetch lands, although those would be a great help, but a decent 1 mana removal spell like innocent blood. Disfigure is just miserable and barely kills anything at all while bolt can go to the face or team up with other burn to kill a planes walker. The only thing that black adds to that discussion is hero's downfall, which while not 100% unplayable, is far from amazing in modern. You need a very good reason to give up bolt and electrolyze and unfortunately black doesn't have a good enough reason. It sucks I know, but black removal just isn't that great at killing creatures when compared to path and bolt. And even if ulcerate was just a strictly better version of disfigure I doubt that would be enough of a reason to go black instead of red.
Control as an archetype needs some serious help in the diversity department as there is UWR with it's variants and nothing else. Aggro however needs help in every department. There isn't much on the B/R list that would change either and would be 100% safe, though I feel that either jace OR visions would be just fine in the format. I think that reprints are more important for control and just new cards in general for aggro.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
When i said good point, I was agreeing that more Control will lead to more BGx which will be annoying. I agree that Aggro and Control both need help.
While this might be true, Blue Moon had a thread on this forum that was ridiculed in Deck Creation months before the Pro Tour, it isn't always true. Sometimes players just get lucky or make good meta calls.
Esper also seems pretty weak against Pod.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Yeah, I agree. Not having access to Anger is pretty big. I suppose against a deck like Pod, Esper would just try to stall in order to resolve a Hallowed Burial or keep the deck off its ladder using Shadow of Doubts.
It just depends on how much removal and wrath esper plays. You can build your deck to be good against pod. 1 advantage esper gets (and black based control in general) is thoughseize as it is a card that is good against both combo and aggro and control. You can put infinte wraths and spot removal in your deck, but then you lose to combo. You can put infinite counters in your deck and then lose to aggro. Its a mix that allows it to operate. counters spot removal and spot discard can allow an esper deck to work.
If you took the U/B black list, added some white cards to get Path's, Supreme Verdicts/hallowed burial, Sphinx Rev's over disfigures, damnation, teachings. You'd have an esper deck that doesn't straight lose to pod. Path is worse against birds, but Path is better against bigger threats compared to disfigure.
MOD::symw::symu::symb: Gifts
LEG::symg::symb: Infect
While you can make an Esper list that can beat Pod, Wafo-Tapa's list only runs 4 removal spells, no maindeck 1 mana discard, and only 6 counterspells that can answer anything permanently.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Heck, the rock is actually classified by MTGTop8 as control...
I agree
It's the reason why I enjoy these decks so much. They are definitely not some random creature decks like Jund Monsters in Standard is. The focus is clearly on the disruption that you have available to you. A single Tarmogoyf is enough to clean up when the dust has settled after all.
It's also why those decks are so resilient and good in my opinion. Everybody instantly thinks about Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf when hearing of "Rock" decks but they would be bad and unable to function without the top notch discard and removal they have including Liliana of the Veil which is discard+removal+win-con in one package basically. Those are the real all-stars in the decks.
Personally, I think it's a little silly that a Planeswalker like Lilly is perfectly OK, but Jace TMS is so far out of the realm of possibility...I'd argue Lilly is probably a better PW than Jace is. Anyways, I'm not sure I'd call Rock/Junk Control. They're solidly Mid-range decks imho.
You don't have to tell me. Im all for unbanning Jace TMS especially as like you say Liliana of the Veil is in the same ballpark in terms of goodness.
As for Rock being midrange and not control I agree with that. Pure control is even further down on the "answers and ways to find answers" road.
But there are definitely different shades when it comes to midrange. The Rock leans more to the control side all things considered while other midrange decks like GR Monsters in Standard are definitely more on the aggro side.
There is no single thing that annoys me more on this forum than people using MTGTop8 to sort archetypes. Since it only has the 3 traditional archetypes. That is why decks like Jund and Delver are grouped as Aggro, Monogreen Devotion as Combo, and Rock as Control. And don't get me started on Tron. They group RG Tron as a Control deck when the only control cards that it plays are Karn, Oblivion Stone, and Pyroclasm.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Yeah why in the hell has Tron always been listed as Control on that site? It bottles my mind.
Some decks it has listed as 'Urzatron' and they could be U or Gr. Others are listed as 'Gr Tron' with literally no difference from the Gr list under 'Urzatron'.
Tomfoolery, I say.
Anyway, about the GP, I am satisfied with the increase in BGx viability, as it makes my Tron decks a little more favored in a competitive meta.
I've said in several other threads that what esper needs to be viable is not allied fetch lands, although those would be a great help, but a decent 1 mana removal spell like innocent blood. Disfigure is just miserable and barely kills anything at all while bolt can go to the face or team up with other burn to kill a planes walker. The only thing that black adds to that discussion is hero's downfall, which while not 100% unplayable, is far from amazing in modern. You need a very good reason to give up bolt and electrolyze and unfortunately black doesn't have a good enough reason. It sucks I know, but black removal just isn't that great at killing creatures when compared to path and bolt. And even if ulcerate was just a strictly better version of disfigure I doubt that would be enough of a reason to go black instead of red.
Control as an archetype needs some serious help in the diversity department as there is UWR with it's variants and nothing else. Aggro however needs help in every department. There isn't much on the B/R list that would change either and would be 100% safe, though I feel that either jace OR visions would be just fine in the format. I think that reprints are more important for control and just new cards in general for aggro.
People played esper decks with Geist of Saint Traft?
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW