Maybe I'm out of date with my Burn matchup, but my experiences are that it's won very simply by running Lightning Helices and developing a superior board state over them.
This is a neat topic, glad the OP started it. If I may put in my two cents (for whatever they may be worth) I recently started playing dredgevine, the jund variant to be more specific. One of the advantages this type of deck has against something like burn is the fact that nearly all of its creatures are either fine with getting burned or are innately resilient to it, a good example would be something like lotleth troll which has multiple ways for surviving burn basically for free. Also the deck has stinkweed imp which, aside from being your best dredger (which makes it more or less a good thing if they kill it) is also a fantastic blocker, not that its always going to be super relevant against a spell driven burn deck but still. Ultimately the most important part that the dredgevine decks bring to the table is gnaw to the bone, even if they have skull crack the flashback can help you fight through it by beating them with raw card efficiency. Not too mention that fact that it is VERY likely that gnaw will gain you double digits of life. This mixed with the fact that dredgevine creatures tend to be fairly aggressive its not like you wont be able to put them on a clock to. Another great thing about the jund variant of dredgevine is that it can potentially survive the burn onslaught while not completely giving away its other match ups, you can still have some rakdos charm and torpor orb in the sideboard to give you decent chances against twin and pod alike, not to mention that a giant trampling lotleth troll handles a lingering souls prone format fairly well imo.
Also, another thing I've been wondering about burn decks as of late is why are they playing treasure cruise, I mean yes, obviously the main weakness burn as a deck has is its lack of card draw or in some cases, card efficiency, so I understand the mentality I guess but it just sounds so janky. One of the most underrated cards from KTK howl of the horde fills a similar role in the sense that it shores up that weakness, without burn decks needing to splash an extra color. Simply do the math, howl of the horde + boros charm, thats basically 2 cards for 12 damage, mind you it might not be all that mana efficient but its incredibly card efficient, which again is basically the defining weakness of the deck. Another example would be howl of the horde + searing blood, you can spend 2 cards to kill up to 3 separate creatures, or even just one big one, AND deal 9 damage to the dome, again that just sounds insanely card efficient and it just bogles the mind that its like a $0.75 bulk rare on SCG, maybe I'm just crazy who knows.
Recursive creatures or just resilient creatures have been great for me against burn. While they will just throw their bolts at you instead of your creatures, if you can put them in a position were they have to block you are probably going to win the game. They can go in for 3-6 damage a turn, but when you can swing for 10 and turn, all of which can return itself to the field or can't be easily burned out, you are in a good spot. Phyrexian Obliterator is also fantastic against burn.
Junk players have started adopting Timely Reinforcements, Bow of Nylea, and Siege Rhino. As UR Delver and Burn become more and more popular thanks to treasure cruise, these cards start to rise in value. It helps that the latter two are also great cards in all fair matchups.
Those are good cards, but at 3 and 4 mana, they're open to getting skullcracked.
Also, that's two separate times someone has mentioned phyrexian unlife...seems janky...but also kinda seems like it reads "gain 10 life. can't be skullcracked"
I've recently put 2 Circle of Protection: Red in my sideboard (along side my 2 helix and ajani main, I play UWR control) and it's been absolutely WORKING burn. I run 26 land so getting a bunch out with circle is no issue and once I untap all my lands read tap: Counterspell or fog, especially if I play it later and have lands available right away. It also does the double whammy by (in my experience) drilling the new delver, they're only non-red source of damage is delver (Here's looking at you pyromancer and swiftspear).
Wouldn't you need to pay 1 for every single Elemental token in addition to the main Pyromancer man?
I've recently put 2 Circle of Protection: Red in my sideboard (along side my 2 helix and ajani main, I play UWR control) and it's been absolutely WORKING burn. I run 26 land so getting a bunch out with circle is no issue and once I untap all my lands read tap: Counterspell or fog, especially if I play it later and have lands available right away. It also does the double whammy by (in my experience) drilling the new delver, they're only non-red source of damage is delver (Here's looking at you pyromancer and swiftspear).
Wouldn't you need to pay 1 for every single Elemental token in addition to the main Pyromancer man?
If they have creatures out and you can't chump them all (as in they're way ahead on board, which is usually not the case), or they have you in bump in the night range. IDK if you can bump from the graveyard w/ Iona naming red on board.
Timely Reinforcements
Sword of War and Peace
Sword of Light and Shadow (not as good)
Various decent lifelink creatures
Spellskite (if you have blue mana)
Sideboard only:
Feed the Clan. That card is just absurd in any Goyf/Snapcaster shell. 5 life early (before Goyf sticks), 10 life late.
In any deck with Black, you can easily rip a fair amount of burn spells out of the deck for a single B, and that's not even going into other card interactions.
T1: Get burned.
T1: Extraction the burn spell (Paying with mana).
T2: Get Burned.
T2: Snap, Targetting Extraction (paying with life).
Depending on hands, this could completely neuter their early game offense and set you up for the win.
I do however, strongly agree with Burn being so good right now because people are paying 6+ life to get their mana base up and running.
Extractions are traditionally poor against Burn--you basically need to rip out a card in their hand with every Extraction in order for them to be good.
Assuming you don't get lucky and you only rip out cards in yards...
Turn 1 Suspend Rift Bolt, I hold up Spell Snare
Turn 2 Rift Bolt resolves, I'm at 17 life, Eidolon, I Snare that
Turn 3 Boros Charm, I'm at 13 life, Bump in the Night, I'm at 10 life, I Surgical Boros Charm, I Snap Surgical Eidolon, I'm at 8 life
Turn 4 Searing Blaze Snap, I'm at 5 life, Goblin Guide, I block with V. Clique
Turn 5 Skullcrack, Shard Volley, I'm dead
This scenario sounds pretty plausible to me.
Besides, since you don't want to pay 2 life against Burn Extirpate would be better.
Junk players have started adopting Timely Reinforcements, Bow of Nylea, and Siege Rhino. As UR Delver and Burn become more and more popular thanks to treasure cruise, these cards start to rise in value. It helps that the latter two are also great cards in all fair matchups.
Those are good cards, but at 3 and 4 mana, they're open to getting skullcracked.
Also, that's two separate times someone has mentioned phyrexian unlife...seems janky...but also kinda seems like it reads "gain 10 life. can't be skullcracked"
Bow of Nylea is repeatable. You can't just say that all anti-Burn artifacts and enchantments are bad because of removal and all lifegain cards are bad because of Skullcrack.
I've recently put 2 Circle of Protection: Red in my sideboard (along side my 2 helix and ajani main, I play UWR control) and it's been absolutely WORKING burn. I run 26 land so getting a bunch out with circle is no issue and once I untap all my lands read tap: Counterspell or fog, especially if I play it later and have lands available right away. It also does the double whammy by (in my experience) drilling the new delver, they're only non-red source of damage is delver (Here's looking at you pyromancer and swiftspear).
Wouldn't you need to pay 1 for every single Elemental token in addition to the main Pyromancer man?
How does that work with damage not using the stack?
Also, another thing I've been wondering about burn decks as of late is why are they playing treasure cruise, I mean yes, obviously the main weakness burn as a deck has is its lack of card draw or in some cases, card efficiency, so I understand the mentality I guess but it just sounds so janky. One of the most underrated cards from KTK howl of the horde fills a similar role in the sense that it shores up that weakness, without burn decks needing to splash an extra color. Simply do the math, howl of the horde + boros charm, thats basically 2 cards for 12 damage, mind you it might not be all that mana efficient but its incredibly card efficient, which again is basically the defining weakness of the deck. Another example would be howl of the horde + searing blood, you can spend 2 cards to kill up to 3 separate creatures, or even just one big one, AND deal 9 damage to the dome, again that just sounds insanely card efficient and it just bogles the mind that its like a $0.75 bulk rare on SCG, maybe I'm just crazy who knows.
Treasure Cruise is by far the better card when they're alone, and burn is too aggressive to care about synergy. Howl has a slightly higher upside (double-copying a Boros Charm), but it requires three separate cards to actually get that - a creature you can attack with (preferably for some value), a spell to copy, and Howl itself. It also takes four to five lands, which is not something the burn deck wants to draw. In any situation where you're not able to attack (in a deck with only 12ish small and vulnerable creatures), Howl is an overpriced copy of any other spell in the deck, worse than Reverberate. When you're in topdeck mode and have no other spells, it's absolute trash.
Treasure Cruise might not have the 12-damage best case scenario to go with it, but in the average game it will do more work. It takes no setup at all beyond casting your spells like normal, and your creatures getting killed will play into Cruise rather than neutering it. You can cast it no matter what your board position or hand size and it works just as well every time. It may only draw you six points of damage, but in a burn deck that's probably enough by the time you're running out of gas. You don't need to get flashy to finish off the opponent, just one or two extra spells is usually plenty.
I wonder if everyone realizes theyre all saying white cards... we all know whie has unlimited options. im looking for cards more like suffer thr past
Sun Droplet.
That card is pretty killer against Burn and can be run in any deck in the format.
Leyline of Sanctity can also theoretically be run in any deck, though it is a bit risky if you're not in White.
I just played a few matches against a burn deck with a well tuned UB tezz deck. In my 2 sideboard games, I was able to resolve 2x sun droplet as well as an elixir of immortality and spellskite. I lost both games. Despite resolving 3-4 hate cards in each game, it still wasn't enough to plow through which is insane.
People need to stop saying unequivocally that any random card that gains you life will beat burn. In order to be good against burn, you need to have at least a 50/50 matchup with them game 1, which is the real issue at hand. If you don't have a solid g1 matchup, you end up losing too many g2/g3 matchups from not finding sideboard hate, them having answers to your hate, or them simply plowing through your hate.
What this thread needs to be about is solid maindeck worthy cards or strategies that aren't entirely narrow against only burn.
Realistically, outside soul sister or martyr strategies, the only card that has consistently been good at gaining life in the meta prior to turn 4 is Lightning Helix, and *maybe* kitchen finks. Anything else is in skullcrack range or means you're simply dead by the time you can resolve it.
Is Rhox War Monk too slow?
Is Pulse of the Fields maindeck worthy in a slower control deck?
Is Tendrils of Corruption worth a look in a UB control variant (despite it's narrow nature)?
Is intervention pact a worthy sideboard card? How about redirect?
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I wonder if everyone realizes theyre all saying white cards... we all know whie has unlimited options. im looking for cards more like suffer thr past
Sun Droplet.
That card is pretty killer against Burn and can be run in any deck in the format.
Leyline of Sanctity can also theoretically be run in any deck, though it is a bit risky if you're not in White.
I just played a few matches against a burn deck with a well tuned UB tezz deck. In my 2 sideboard games, I was able to resolve 2x sun droplet as well as an elixir of immortality and spellskite. I lost both games. Despite resolving 3-4 hate cards in each game, it still wasn't enough to plow through which is insane.
People need to stop saying unequivocally that any random card that gains you life will beat burn. In order to be good against burn, you need to have at least a 50/50 matchup with them game 1, which is the real issue at hand. If you don't have a solid g1 matchup, you end up losing too many g2/g3 matchups from not finding sideboard hate, them having answers to your hate, or them simply plowing through your hate.
What this thread needs to be about is solid maindeck worthy cards or strategies that aren't entirely narrow against only burn.
Realistically, outside soul sister or martyr strategies, the only card that has consistently been good at gaining life in the meta prior to turn 4 is Lightning Helix, and *maybe* kitchen finks. Anything else is in skullcrack range or means you're simply dead by the time you can resolve it.
Is Rhox War Monk too slow?
Is Pulse of the Fields maindeck worthy in a slower control deck?
Is Tendrils of Corruption worth a look in a UB control variant (despite it's narrow nature)?
Is intervention pact a worthy sideboard card? How about redirect?
Rhox War Monk isn't too slow. It just is in the wrong colors for Modern.
Just took the advice of Circle of Protection: Red, as a 2-of in the sideboard. If you are constantly able to produce more mana then burn, you will utterly dismantle them, especially with leyline.
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For blue decks more Negates and Dispels backed up by a decent clock or repeatable lifegain (Batterskull) is quite good, and since you're playing blue, you're probably playing Red and Pyroclasm/Bolt are very good cards against burn. My burn MU is not that bad since I play 3 Mana Leak, 3 Spell Snare, 4 Cryptic, 4 Remand, and 4 Snapcasters main, with Huntmasters + out of SB get another Spell Snare, Dispel, and Negate + 3 Mystic Snakes (and Pyroclasms) + Batterskull. These cards are also good against a variety of MU's so you're not really diluting your SB.
Advice:
Blue decks - play 4 Spell Snare in the 75. Play some Negates and Dispels in the SB. Play something that gives repeatable lifegain like Batterskull. Mana Leak helps bridge you to Cryptic which helps get you to Batterskull without being < 10 life. Game ones can be kind of iffy depending on the draws. Don't durdle around - you have to put some pressure on them. By the way...Remand has gotten a lot better against them due to their inclusion of treasure cruise and a higher mana curve. It's all about surviving to Batterskull
Also, I dont know how positive single instance lifegain effects will be, especially those that are played only because they give you life, because of Skullcrack and Flames of the Bloodhand. So personally I view the burn matchup as a resources game, because they can run out of cards with proper plays from the opponent...which are mostly just keeping their constant damage sources off the board (in black disfigure seems good against Eidolon of the great revel and Goblin Guide here)
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
I've been testing Affinity with 4 Chalice of the Void maindeck (in lieu of Signal Pests) in this Burn/UR Delver meta. Depending on your expected meta Chalice may be a boon or a liability, but against these surging decks it is a house. By turn 2 you should be able to drop Chalice (if not on turn 1) and in game 1 they will be shut out of the game. After sideboard Burn does have some artifact kill, but the top UR Delver list at the last SCG Premier IQ had 0 artifact kill spells in the board, just a lot more burn and counters.
The problem maindecking Chalice against these decks is it doesn't affect the entire field. Here are some decks where Chalice maindeck would hurt you:
Scapeshift
Living End
Mono-U Tron
Merfolk
Pod (all varieties)
Affinity mirror (unless you knew it was the mirror and dropped your 0 cost artifacts first, then dropped a chalice on 0)
In these matches Chalice is just OK maindeck:
UWR Control / midrange
BG / Junk / Jund
Zoo
RG Tron
Twin
In these matches Chalice is nearly game over:
Burn
UR Delver
Infect
Bogles
UR Storm
Jeskai Ascendancy (they will need to Wish into a bounce/kill spell first... and as affinity you should be running them over by that point).
So again, I'm not sure if it is maindeckable, but if the Treasure Cruise trend of decks packed with 1 CC spells continues, it may be.
Edit: Forgot Twin initially (put it in the OK category). Probably forgetting a few other decks too.
Chalice isn't that good vs burn... Lots of burn lists run a ton of 2 drops and they will blow all of their 1 drops if you chalice on 1. Maybe you get a 2 for 1 that costs you 2 mana and them 0. Otherwise it does nothing vs them.
Chalice isn't that good vs burn... Lots of burn lists run a ton of 2 drops and they will blow all of their 1 drops if you chalice on 1. Maybe you get a 2 for 1 that costs you 2 mana and them 0. Otherwise it does nothing vs them.
My testing shows otherwise, both with Treasure Burn lists and Burn lists without Treasure Cruise. It stops the following cards:
Goblin Guide
Monastery Swiftspear
Vexing Devil (falling out of flavor due to MS)
Grim Lavamancer
Lightning Bolt
Lava Spike
Bump in the Night
Shard Volley (my lists ran no more than 2)
Sure they have 2 drop spells, but are 2 drop burn spells enough to beat Affinity? Especially when a Burn player will typically be forced to spend a spell on a Vault Skirge, testing showed that them being unable to cast 1 CC spells will allow Affinity to win most of the time.
Chalice is a bit relevant against Scapeshift; they have Bolt, Sleight of Hand, and sometimes other stuff; against Living End you put it on 0; Merfolk has Vial and Cursecatcher and some sideboard stuff; Pod has mana dorks.
This thread cracks me up. Soul sisters was built as the "anti-zoo" deck, and it's even better vs. burn. Sure, they can skullcrack when you pop your martyr (IF you're on the draw!) but sisters have WAY more lifegain cards than burn has skullcracks. I have 7 sisters, 3 martyr, 4 ascendant, 2 archangel of thune, 2 vault of the archangel, and 3 ranger of eos to find more sisters, martyrs, and ascendants. Burn is a hard matchup to lose with sisters.
I haven't played the matchup yet, but I can imagine sisters is pretty good vs. UR delver, too. My 3x zealous persecution in the board would make it even better. Also solid vs. goblins, zoo, affinity, and really any linear aggro. I'm well aware it's viewed as a "budget" or "noob" deck, or that it's gotten worse over time, but decks come and go in favor. I will say the list gets a LOT better IMO with a black splash for lingering souls & zealous persecution, while others have had good results with a red splash.
We're bad mainboard vs. combo, but being white have amazing board options in RIP, stony silence, suppression field, ect. I would never run auriok champion or kor firewalker in the board because we're already so good vs. burn it's not needed and we need to dedicate precious board slots to bad matchups.
The problem maindecking Chalice against these decks is it doesn't affect the entire field. Here are some decks where Chalice maindeck would hurt you:
Scapeshift
Living End
Mono-U Tron
Merfolk
Pod (all varieties)
Affinity mirror (unless you knew it was the mirror and dropped your 0 cost artifacts first, then dropped a chalice on 0)
Actually, if you have fast mana production, Chalice can destroy Scapeshift. If you can produce 8 mana, it comes down on 4, preventing Scapeshift from resolving and stopping their main answer (Cryptic Command) from removing it. It'd probably be tricky to resolve against it, but if you have the mana production (i.e. playing GR Tron or Monogreen Devotion) it's basically game up on resolution.
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Specifically, resolving Grim Lavamancer first.
BWR THE ARISTAHCRATZ!
Also, another thing I've been wondering about burn decks as of late is why are they playing treasure cruise, I mean yes, obviously the main weakness burn as a deck has is its lack of card draw or in some cases, card efficiency, so I understand the mentality I guess but it just sounds so janky. One of the most underrated cards from KTK howl of the horde fills a similar role in the sense that it shores up that weakness, without burn decks needing to splash an extra color. Simply do the math, howl of the horde + boros charm, thats basically 2 cards for 12 damage, mind you it might not be all that mana efficient but its incredibly card efficient, which again is basically the defining weakness of the deck. Another example would be howl of the horde + searing blood, you can spend 2 cards to kill up to 3 separate creatures, or even just one big one, AND deal 9 damage to the dome, again that just sounds insanely card efficient and it just bogles the mind that its like a $0.75 bulk rare on SCG, maybe I'm just crazy who knows.
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Those are good cards, but at 3 and 4 mana, they're open to getting skullcracked.
Also, that's two separate times someone has mentioned phyrexian unlife...seems janky...but also kinda seems like it reads "gain 10 life. can't be skullcracked"
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That card is pretty killer against Burn and can be run in any deck in the format.
Leyline of Sanctity can also theoretically be run in any deck, though it is a bit risky if you're not in White.
Wouldn't you need to pay 1 for every single Elemental token in addition to the main Pyromancer man?
Just confirm, yes, you would.
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Yes, you can.
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Timely Reinforcements
Sword of War and Peace
Sword of Light and Shadow (not as good)
Various decent lifelink creatures
Spellskite (if you have blue mana)
Sideboard only:
Feed the Clan. That card is just absurd in any Goyf/Snapcaster shell. 5 life early (before Goyf sticks), 10 life late.
Besides, since you don't want to pay 2 life against Burn Extirpate would be better.
You can't use red targeted pumps of Phyrexian Crusader because of Protection from Red.
Bow of Nylea is repeatable. You can't just say that all anti-Burn artifacts and enchantments are bad because of removal and all lifegain cards are bad because of Skullcrack.
How does that work with damage not using the stack?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Treasure Cruise might not have the 12-damage best case scenario to go with it, but in the average game it will do more work. It takes no setup at all beyond casting your spells like normal, and your creatures getting killed will play into Cruise rather than neutering it. You can cast it no matter what your board position or hand size and it works just as well every time. It may only draw you six points of damage, but in a burn deck that's probably enough by the time you're running out of gas. You don't need to get flashy to finish off the opponent, just one or two extra spells is usually plenty.
I just played a few matches against a burn deck with a well tuned UB tezz deck. In my 2 sideboard games, I was able to resolve 2x sun droplet as well as an elixir of immortality and spellskite. I lost both games. Despite resolving 3-4 hate cards in each game, it still wasn't enough to plow through which is insane.
People need to stop saying unequivocally that any random card that gains you life will beat burn. In order to be good against burn, you need to have at least a 50/50 matchup with them game 1, which is the real issue at hand. If you don't have a solid g1 matchup, you end up losing too many g2/g3 matchups from not finding sideboard hate, them having answers to your hate, or them simply plowing through your hate.
What this thread needs to be about is solid maindeck worthy cards or strategies that aren't entirely narrow against only burn.
Realistically, outside soul sister or martyr strategies, the only card that has consistently been good at gaining life in the meta prior to turn 4 is Lightning Helix, and *maybe* kitchen finks. Anything else is in skullcrack range or means you're simply dead by the time you can resolve it.
Is Rhox War Monk too slow?
Is Pulse of the Fields maindeck worthy in a slower control deck?
Is Tendrils of Corruption worth a look in a UB control variant (despite it's narrow nature)?
Is intervention pact a worthy sideboard card? How about redirect?
Rhox War Monk isn't too slow. It just is in the wrong colors for Modern.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Advice:
Blue decks - play 4 Spell Snare in the 75. Play some Negates and Dispels in the SB. Play something that gives repeatable lifegain like Batterskull. Mana Leak helps bridge you to Cryptic which helps get you to Batterskull without being < 10 life. Game ones can be kind of iffy depending on the draws. Don't durdle around - you have to put some pressure on them. By the way...Remand has gotten a lot better against them due to their inclusion of treasure cruise and a higher mana curve. It's all about surviving to Batterskull
Also, I dont know how positive single instance lifegain effects will be, especially those that are played only because they give you life, because of Skullcrack and Flames of the Bloodhand. So personally I view the burn matchup as a resources game, because they can run out of cards with proper plays from the opponent...which are mostly just keeping their constant damage sources off the board (in black disfigure seems good against Eidolon of the great revel and Goblin Guide here)
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
The problem maindecking Chalice against these decks is it doesn't affect the entire field. Here are some decks where Chalice maindeck would hurt you:
Scapeshift
Living End
Mono-U Tron
Merfolk
Pod (all varieties)
Affinity mirror (unless you knew it was the mirror and dropped your 0 cost artifacts first, then dropped a chalice on 0)
In these matches Chalice is just OK maindeck:
UWR Control / midrange
BG / Junk / Jund
Zoo
RG Tron
Twin
In these matches Chalice is nearly game over:
Burn
UR Delver
Infect
Bogles
UR Storm
Jeskai Ascendancy (they will need to Wish into a bounce/kill spell first... and as affinity you should be running them over by that point).
So again, I'm not sure if it is maindeckable, but if the Treasure Cruise trend of decks packed with 1 CC spells continues, it may be.
Edit: Forgot Twin initially (put it in the OK category). Probably forgetting a few other decks too.
My testing shows otherwise, both with Treasure Burn lists and Burn lists without Treasure Cruise. It stops the following cards:
Goblin Guide
Monastery Swiftspear
Vexing Devil (falling out of flavor due to MS)
Grim Lavamancer
Lightning Bolt
Lava Spike
Bump in the Night
Shard Volley (my lists ran no more than 2)
Sure they have 2 drop spells, but are 2 drop burn spells enough to beat Affinity? Especially when a Burn player will typically be forced to spend a spell on a Vault Skirge, testing showed that them being unable to cast 1 CC spells will allow Affinity to win most of the time.
I haven't played the matchup yet, but I can imagine sisters is pretty good vs. UR delver, too. My 3x zealous persecution in the board would make it even better. Also solid vs. goblins, zoo, affinity, and really any linear aggro. I'm well aware it's viewed as a "budget" or "noob" deck, or that it's gotten worse over time, but decks come and go in favor. I will say the list gets a LOT better IMO with a black splash for lingering souls & zealous persecution, while others have had good results with a red splash.
We're bad mainboard vs. combo, but being white have amazing board options in RIP, stony silence, suppression field, ect. I would never run auriok champion or kor firewalker in the board because we're already so good vs. burn it's not needed and we need to dedicate precious board slots to bad matchups.