Also I dont know why people reject ugin for his +1 cost over karn. When the deck plays overcosted eldrazis in his main. And Ugin is way better than karn in the current modern meta.
Karn can be played on turn three in Tron, Ugin not.
- L
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
Could someone crunch the numbers so that we can see what the statistical chance of landing Karn on turn 3 is? Like, with land fetching and the like.
Because while dropping a turn 3 Karn is backbreaking, if it's only like a 5% chance (numbers pulled out of thin air), I could see the argument for replacing Karn with Ugin, depending on the meta.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
The magic number for CMCs in Tron is 7. That's how much mana the full Tron gives you. You know how the magic toughness for creatures is 4 and the magic life total against Scapeshift is 19 or 37? Same concept.
You can play Karn on turn 3 if you assemble Tron on that turn. Can't do that with Ugin or any other 8-drop.
Ugin vs Karn/Wurmcoil is no contest, Ugin loses because he costs 8 instead of 7. Ugin vs Emrakul/Ulamog/Sundering Titan (all of these guys are 1-ofs at most, precisely because they cost more than 7), well, Ugin still loses because he can't be searched for with his Eye. How ironic.
I could see the argument for replacing Karn with Ugin, depending on the meta.
Remember that Delver runs so many cheap threats, all of which get hit by Ugin's boardwipe? Karn comes down and -3's some target permanent or +4s to disrupt their hand. Ugin comes down and -3s their whole ****ing board. Its a massive card advantage play, even if it does have to be on turn 4. If anything turn 4 is actually better, as long as we assume both spells resolve, since they will have deployed even more to the field to get wiped.
So Ugin is exponentially better for Tron against Delver as long as both spells resolve (which is still a problem for Karn regardless, so I don't think that's a fair point to criticize).
I could see the argument for replacing Karn with Ugin, depending on the meta.
Remember that Delver runs so many cheap threats, all of which get hit by Ugin's boardwipe? Karn comes down and -3's some target permanent or +4s to disrupt their hand. Ugin comes down and -3s their whole ****ing board. Its a massive card advantage play, even if it does have to be on turn 4. If anything turn 4 is actually better, as long as we assume both spells resolve, since they will have deployed even more to the field to get wiped.
So Ugin is exponentially better for Tron against Delver as long as both spells resolve (which is still a problem for Karn regardless, so I don't think that's a fair point to criticize).
You know what else destroys Delver's board? All Is Dust. You know what can be cast off of a full Tron? Not Ugin.
You know what else destroys Delver's board? All Is Dust. You know what can be cast off of a full Tron? Not Ugin.
You know what will directly win you the game after casting it and wiping the board? Ugin. You know what won't win you the game after casting it? All is Dust.
You know what else destroys Delver's board? All Is Dust. You know what can be cast off of a full Tron? Not Ugin.
You know what will directly win you the game after casting it and wiping the board? Ugin. You know what won't win you the game after casting it? All is Dust.
Because obviously you're going to cast All Is Dust without any backup at all. Of course a board sweeper isn't going to win you the game on the spot. However, it will destroy any aggro deck's board state a turn earlier than Ugin will, which gives you plenty of breathing room to actually play something that will end the game (like Karn or a Wurmcoil Engine).
The fact that you can wipe the board two turns in a row and still end up with 3-4 loyalties seems potentially powerful. Or more likely wipe the board and then kill the next dude with his +2 (leaving him with 7-8 loyalties.)
He also seems like a much more reliable win condition than both Wurmcoil and Karn. Karn can restart the game after you've +4'ed him twice, but you'll probably not getting anything interesting into play. Ugin can also ultimate after two turns but his ultimate will probably win you the games most of the time(+ his +2 also protects him, which makes it harder for your opponent to slow him down). Karn works his way into hard lock mode though, by eating lands and hellbenting the opponent, but that's a slow grind and often needs a preemptive strike from an O-Stone or two to do his work in peace. Ugin has a much higher chance of working on his own I reckon.
I don't think you can dismiss him entirely just yet.
Anyone whos going "Lets debate Karn vs Ugin" is doing it wrong. Thats basicly saying "Lets debate Lava spike and Lingering souls" They are both sorceries, yes, but have different roles.
Karn and ugin are planeswalkers, sure, but Karn flat out is a win con that can exile stuff. Win con first, exile second. And his magical cost is 7, which is perfect tron mana.
Ugin is more akin to Ostone than anyother card outta the deck. The difference between those two cards should be where the debate lies. Heres what they share:
Both "cost" 8 to wipe.
Mighta been a little short list, but realistically, thats the exact reason they can be debated. Now lets go over pros and cons:
Pros of O stone over ugin:
You can play it over 2 turns, relievent in a mana screw, land destruction or blood moon.
Hits ALL things, regardless of cost... on the off chance someone gifted for an iona or something.
Pros of Ugin over Ostone:
Isnt dead against any deck because at least it can bolt and eventually win the game
Can wipe twice, or at least wipes and sticks around to be able to do it again.
Cant be hated on easily (lookin' at you stony silence)
After wiping can become a potential win con
For those reasons, I'll say well see some ugins in tron over o stone.
CMC of the Stone is 8 most of time, since normally you won't play it unless you're going to use it immediately.
wat. The whole point of OStone is that you can pay it in installments.
Any good tron player knows doing that is a liability. You can get away with it some times but most of the time you want to play and pop it right away so that it doesn't get destroyed before you can board wipe. It costs 8.
We shouldn't be discussing replacing any of these cards with Ugin, rather, playing him with them. Karn, Ugin, WCE, O-stone.
Edit: I should correct myself, there are times you play O-stone and don't pop it. Those situations are where the board is not a threat to you and you want to start putting fate counters on your stuff so that you can wipe later and still have a better board. For the purpose of this discussion thou I think we are looking at a board state that we want to wipe as soon as possible.
I can't belief you all forget that Blood Moon is a card. O-stone is the king because you have a realistic chance of killing that thing. Good luck trying it with Ugin.
RG Tron is one of my gauntlet decks I maintain on Cockatrice to test against other decks. In particular, if a combo deck consistently beats it, it's in OK shape, and if a midrange deck beats it somewhat often, it's in good shape.
From smashing RG Tron against a ton of other decks, Karn Liberated is a 4-of irreplaceable in it because he's 2 Stone Rains and a possible hand mugger at worst against combo, a Vindicate and a partial Fog/Bolt lure at worst against aggro, takes over the game without ulting in more cases, and costs a mere 7 mana, so I can cast him on Turn 3. I tend to have Turn 3 Karn about 20% of the time--that's a lot. Multiple Karns in a game can steal wins against combo decks that you have no right having good match-ups against.
Oblivion Stone is similarly nearly irreplaceable because it can nuke stuff at instant speed (sure, it's telegraphed, but they have to blow it up or lure it by playing combo pieces), it costs 3 + 5 mana, so you can pay that in instalments to blow up Blood Moon fast or dodge Mana Leak, and at least I can cast it on Turn 4 for the full 8 mana.
I've already mentioned that Ugin's in the All Is Dust slot.
If anything, I'm most prone to dropping Wurmcoil Engine numbers for Ugin. Wurmcoil may cost only 6 mana (so it's a Turn 3 play, and it's barely playable against Blood Moon + no pressure) and be searchable with Eye of Ugin, but it's enormous Path to Exile bait and combo plain doesn't care about it. I'll never go below 1 Wurmcoil, but Ugin at least snipes combo pieces opponents already played (such as Exarchs, Pod combo critters, Pyromancer Ascension), and Ugin threatens to ult and summon O. Stone/Karn/maybe Emrakul 2 turns after he ETB if he's not pressured. Ugin gaining life 1+ turns later than Wurmcoil does bites, though.
I don't buy the argument that Ugin is good because it acts as a wincon after you wipe the board. Suppose you're playing some kind of white control deck and you need a board wipe, are you going to play Wrath of God or Phyrexian Rebirth? The answer should be clear - it doesn't matter if Rebirth gives you a wincon after it wipes the board, Wrath is going to be better basically all the time because it's cheaper and you can actually cast it before dying to your opponent's creatures.
I don't buy the argument that Ugin is good because it acts as a wincon after you wipe the board. Suppose you're playing some kind of white control deck and you need a board wipe, are you going to play Wrath of God or Phyrexian Rebirth? The answer should be clear - it doesn't matter if Rebirth gives you a wincon after it wipes the board, Wrath is going to be better basically all the time because it's cheaper and you can actually cast it before dying to your opponent's creatures.
Okay, but ugin is a win con last. Hes recurring board wipe first. Then he can snipe new critters your opponent plays. Then if theres nothing else to do, bolt your opponent.
Imagine if rebirth cost 5 instead of 6 (wrath+1/allisdust+1) & the token from rebirth could snipe other creatures, was immune to path, and could recast rebirth. thats wat ugin does
Imagine if rebirth cost 5 instead of 6 (wrath+1/allisdust+1) & the token from rebirth could snipe other creatures, was immune to path, and could recast rebirth. thats wat ugin does
Or maybe a better way to put would be if Ostone was repeatable and could Bolt your opponent if you didn't need the boardwipe. Yes, Ostone is payable in installments which is helpful, but you will never have the wipe until turn 4 no matter what you do thanks to the way Tron's mana scales.
That is really the reason I dislike the WrathVsRebirth comparison, since one of those cards will always get cast turn 4, the other will always be cast turn 6. Not only is that a two turn difference to UginVsOstone&Karn's one, but Ostone can't even be activated on that turn regardless of whether you play it on turn 3 or not.
Combine that with the fact that you don't need to get only two uses out of Ugin. As long as he's out, you get to Bolt your opponent whenever you donb't need the wipe, and you get hold the wipe over you opponent's head. They can bait Ostone. They can never bait Ugin, because Ugin will always be there, threatening both their board and their life total.
So, can anybody tell me what matchups Ugin will be improving and how this will help Tron? The card is absolutely bombastic, and I really want it to be playable, but I can think of many decks that I want Ugin against considering the standardized list.
Spirit Dragon looks awesome in against Junk and Pod, but these are already favorable matchups. The exile effect would be really helpful against Boggles. He doesn't help me find Tron. He doesn't help me play around hate in a timely manner. He doesn't help me recover after I just got Tec Edge'd. He isn't very good with a blood moon on the table. He doesn't help me when I'm on 6 life and it's Turn 4 against red decks. He doesn't disrupt scapeshfit. 8 mana is way to slow against Burn, maybe a little more useful against Delver. The sorcery speed is terrible against Jeskai Ascendancy and Storm. He doesn't do anything about Twin combos. Obv bad against affinity. Irrelevant against infect. Am I missing anything here?
My prediction: Ugin will spur new found interest in Tron decks and will undoubtedly find his way into some lists (some may even be successful), but Spirit Dragon will not improve Trons bad matchups or remedy its current problems. The deck needs ways to improve its consistency, ease the pain of disruption, stabilize against fast aggro/red decks, or disrupt faster combo decks. I really do want to live the dream of T3 Karn, T4 Ugin. Too cool.
Also why are they reprinting lands that were in the previous set? For limited/sealed? wtf?
The aggro matchup. Tron loses to a race (sure clasm, but that doesnt hit everything, zoo and boogles for one) but this keeps the board dead. Long dead.
Im really curious if we get a new Nicol Bolas card and how he will turn out.
Karn can be played on turn three in Tron, Ugin not.
- L
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
Because while dropping a turn 3 Karn is backbreaking, if it's only like a 5% chance (numbers pulled out of thin air), I could see the argument for replacing Karn with Ugin, depending on the meta.
You can play Karn on turn 3 if you assemble Tron on that turn. Can't do that with Ugin or any other 8-drop.
Ugin vs Karn/Wurmcoil is no contest, Ugin loses because he costs 8 instead of 7. Ugin vs Emrakul/Ulamog/Sundering Titan (all of these guys are 1-ofs at most, precisely because they cost more than 7), well, Ugin still loses because he can't be searched for with his Eye. How ironic.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Remember that Delver runs so many cheap threats, all of which get hit by Ugin's boardwipe? Karn comes down and -3's some target permanent or +4s to disrupt their hand. Ugin comes down and -3s their whole ****ing board. Its a massive card advantage play, even if it does have to be on turn 4. If anything turn 4 is actually better, as long as we assume both spells resolve, since they will have deployed even more to the field to get wiped.
So Ugin is exponentially better for Tron against Delver as long as both spells resolve (which is still a problem for Karn regardless, so I don't think that's a fair point to criticize).
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
You know what else destroys Delver's board? All Is Dust. You know what can be cast off of a full Tron? Not Ugin.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
You know what will directly win you the game after casting it and wiping the board? Ugin. You know what won't win you the game after casting it? All is Dust.
Because obviously you're going to cast All Is Dust without any backup at all. Of course a board sweeper isn't going to win you the game on the spot. However, it will destroy any aggro deck's board state a turn earlier than Ugin will, which gives you plenty of breathing room to actually play something that will end the game (like Karn or a Wurmcoil Engine).
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
He also seems like a much more reliable win condition than both Wurmcoil and Karn. Karn can restart the game after you've +4'ed him twice, but you'll probably not getting anything interesting into play. Ugin can also ultimate after two turns but his ultimate will probably win you the games most of the time(+ his +2 also protects him, which makes it harder for your opponent to slow him down). Karn works his way into hard lock mode though, by eating lands and hellbenting the opponent, but that's a slow grind and often needs a preemptive strike from an O-Stone or two to do his work in peace. Ugin has a much higher chance of working on his own I reckon.
I don't think you can dismiss him entirely just yet.
wat. The whole point of OStone is that you can pay it in installments.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Karn and ugin are planeswalkers, sure, but Karn flat out is a win con that can exile stuff. Win con first, exile second. And his magical cost is 7, which is perfect tron mana.
Ugin is more akin to Ostone than anyother card outta the deck. The difference between those two cards should be where the debate lies. Heres what they share:
Mighta been a little short list, but realistically, thats the exact reason they can be debated. Now lets go over pros and cons:
Pros of O stone over ugin:
Pros of Ugin over Ostone:
For those reasons, I'll say well see some ugins in tron over o stone.
Any good tron player knows doing that is a liability. You can get away with it some times but most of the time you want to play and pop it right away so that it doesn't get destroyed before you can board wipe. It costs 8.
We shouldn't be discussing replacing any of these cards with Ugin, rather, playing him with them. Karn, Ugin, WCE, O-stone.
Edit: I should correct myself, there are times you play O-stone and don't pop it. Those situations are where the board is not a threat to you and you want to start putting fate counters on your stuff so that you can wipe later and still have a better board. For the purpose of this discussion thou I think we are looking at a board state that we want to wipe as soon as possible.
From smashing RG Tron against a ton of other decks, Karn Liberated is a 4-of irreplaceable in it because he's 2 Stone Rains and a possible hand mugger at worst against combo, a Vindicate and a partial Fog/Bolt lure at worst against aggro, takes over the game without ulting in more cases, and costs a mere 7 mana, so I can cast him on Turn 3. I tend to have Turn 3 Karn about 20% of the time--that's a lot. Multiple Karns in a game can steal wins against combo decks that you have no right having good match-ups against.
Oblivion Stone is similarly nearly irreplaceable because it can nuke stuff at instant speed (sure, it's telegraphed, but they have to blow it up or lure it by playing combo pieces), it costs 3 + 5 mana, so you can pay that in instalments to blow up Blood Moon fast or dodge Mana Leak, and at least I can cast it on Turn 4 for the full 8 mana.
I've already mentioned that Ugin's in the All Is Dust slot.
If anything, I'm most prone to dropping Wurmcoil Engine numbers for Ugin. Wurmcoil may cost only 6 mana (so it's a Turn 3 play, and it's barely playable against Blood Moon + no pressure) and be searchable with Eye of Ugin, but it's enormous Path to Exile bait and combo plain doesn't care about it. I'll never go below 1 Wurmcoil, but Ugin at least snipes combo pieces opponents already played (such as Exarchs, Pod combo critters, Pyromancer Ascension), and Ugin threatens to ult and summon O. Stone/Karn/maybe Emrakul 2 turns after he ETB if he's not pressured. Ugin gaining life 1+ turns later than Wurmcoil does bites, though.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Okay, but ugin is a win con last. Hes recurring board wipe first. Then he can snipe new critters your opponent plays. Then if theres nothing else to do, bolt your opponent.
Imagine if rebirth cost 5 instead of 6 (wrath+1/allisdust+1) & the token from rebirth could snipe other creatures, was immune to path, and could recast rebirth. thats wat ugin does
Or maybe a better way to put would be if Ostone was repeatable and could Bolt your opponent if you didn't need the boardwipe. Yes, Ostone is payable in installments which is helpful, but you will never have the wipe until turn 4 no matter what you do thanks to the way Tron's mana scales.
That is really the reason I dislike the WrathVsRebirth comparison, since one of those cards will always get cast turn 4, the other will always be cast turn 6. Not only is that a two turn difference to UginVsOstone&Karn's one, but Ostone can't even be activated on that turn regardless of whether you play it on turn 3 or not.
Combine that with the fact that you don't need to get only two uses out of Ugin. As long as he's out, you get to Bolt your opponent whenever you donb't need the wipe, and you get hold the wipe over you opponent's head. They can bait Ostone. They can never bait Ugin, because Ugin will always be there, threatening both their board and their life total.
Spirit Dragon looks awesome in against Junk and Pod, but these are already favorable matchups. The exile effect would be really helpful against Boggles. He doesn't help me find Tron. He doesn't help me play around hate in a timely manner. He doesn't help me recover after I just got Tec Edge'd. He isn't very good with a blood moon on the table. He doesn't help me when I'm on 6 life and it's Turn 4 against red decks. He doesn't disrupt scapeshfit. 8 mana is way to slow against Burn, maybe a little more useful against Delver. The sorcery speed is terrible against Jeskai Ascendancy and Storm. He doesn't do anything about Twin combos. Obv bad against affinity. Irrelevant against infect. Am I missing anything here?
My prediction: Ugin will spur new found interest in Tron decks and will undoubtedly find his way into some lists (some may even be successful), but Spirit Dragon will not improve Trons bad matchups or remedy its current problems. The deck needs ways to improve its consistency, ease the pain of disruption, stabilize against fast aggro/red decks, or disrupt faster combo decks. I really do want to live the dream of T3 Karn, T4 Ugin. Too cool.
Also why are they reprinting lands that were in the previous set? For limited/sealed? wtf?
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG