Lightning Bolt is modern most played card. It's a highly efficient removal that can even hit planeswalkers or go to the face.
The 'Bolt Test' is commonly known and defines if a creature is playable in Modern.
But there are quite some creatures that would have lots of modern potencial if Bolt wouldn't be as oppressive as it is (Vampire Nighthawk, Prophetic Flamespeaker, Mantis Rider, Spellheart Chimera just to name a few).
So my idea for this thread is to brainstorm possibilities to lower Lightning Bolts meta share.
We will NOT discuss a banning of Bolt (or any other card) here.
Possibilites could be new mechanics (maybe something like 'this creature can't be dealt noncombat damage'), new cards to be printed to somehow 'hate' on Bolt or something completely different I don't know.
I just think that the format could be way more diverse if Bolt would't be as oppressive as it is and maybe together we can find a 'solution' for this problem.
Fixed Mental Misstep U
Instant
Counter target spell with CMC 1 or less.
No phyrexian mana so you can't cast it for free but this can hit more targets than Mental Misstep.
being able to hit for 0 would really only hit chalice of the void and ornithopter in modern, in legacy and vintage being able to counter a 0 cost spell (for 1 blue which lets be honest just about everyone plays blue) it would really warp the format. Mental Misstep does work already in eternal formats where it's legal, no need to introduce a counter 0 cmc spell.
in fact i don't think there is an issue. if bolt wasn't the benchmark that creatures had to vaguely 'pass', then another card would be, and we'd be having exactly the same conversation except you'd be listing a handful of slightly different creatures which aren't passing this new benchmark.
it's kind of pointless really.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
No card will ever solve the bolt test with instant spells, because it will always be better to play another creature instead. To solve the problem, you need a card that cantrips, a creature that also fixes the problem (hi Mom!) or something that protects multiple creature from removal. Anything else is card disadvantage.
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Things WotC cares about:
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
in fact i don't think there is an issue. if bolt wasn't the benchmark that creatures had to vaguely 'pass', then another card would be, and we'd be having exactly the same conversation except you'd be listing a handful of slightly different creatures which aren't passing this new benchmark.
it's kind of pointless really.
My idea isn't to dethrone Bolt but to create an environment where it's less prevalent. I'm not saying let's print super bolt that just does 4 damage more something like:
Split Card:
Shock / Burst /
Shock
Instant
Shock deals 2 damage to target creature or player
Burst
Instant
Burst deals 4 damage to target creature
I just a rough idea but this doesn't seem stronger than Bolt nor way worse. It kills small critters just as good as Bolt, is worse against 3 toughness guys but is able to kill the magical 4 toughness creatures (note that burst can only target creatures).
Also all the cards you mentioned are completely build around cards (besides hydra, but hydra is aweful). That's not what I'm looking for here because they people won't stop playing Bolts only because they are bad in one MU.
Solve the bolt test? I think the Toughness 3 cards are mere cards you would to play, but just aren't competitive. Replacing bolt will give only give a new predator.
And btw, you could always use some of those cards as sideboard slots against e.g. against Junk and Pod, decks that do not play lightning bolt.
I'm giving this thread 24 hours to become something other than a banlist discussion, a reprint discussion, or a print-new-cards discussion. If it can't, it's getting locked.
I started learning how to play somewhere between M10 and M11, when bolt was still in some sort of Standard environment, and learned from people who played with ridiculous decks - often with old cards, and maybe it is that which makes me have the opinion that, sure, 2CMC counters, 1CMC burn-for-3 spells are annoying, but they really do help shape the game, and are not a real problem in of itself... I dunno how to easily articulate my opinion, but I like that you had options like that...
So when something passes the "bolt test" then it fails the dismember test, or the doomblade test or the go for the throat test or the oblivion stone test or whatever.
Play the damn cards, everything dies.
It's all about timing for value.
So when something passes the "bolt test" then it fails the dismember test, or the doomblade test or the go for the throat test or the oblivion stone test or whatever.
Play the damn cards, everything dies.
It's all about timing for value.
Except that dismember can not hit a planeswalker, or your dome, same for the other cards you mention.
Bolt is too flexible.
Quote from retrigger »
Im being serious : quit. Its a 20 years old card that wasnt OP at any point of history and everything it hits (players and creatures) had gotten powercreeped, whereas bolt keeps on the same level. Its not even fair.
That is not true. It has been the benchmark in every format it has ever been played in. It has warped or narrowed every format its been played in. I dont know how anyone can say it isnt over powered. It does multiple things, keeps cards out of formats, and effects deck building like no other card. That is the definition of over powering. If you figure the card is over powered now, it was broken in the early days of Magic. It kept creature strategies down.
I'm giving this thread 24 hours to become something other than a banlist discussion, a reprint discussion, or a print-new-cards discussion. If it can't, it's getting locked.
Other than banning a card, or printing new cards, is there *any* other way to "fix" *any* modern metagame issue?
In order to make bolt less powerful, and allow 3-toughness cards to see the light of day, they would need to print stronger 1, 2, and 4 damage spells. Force red mages to decide *which* burn spells they want in their deck, but make it so that bolt is not an auto-include. If any of the burn spells become too powerful, one subset of creatures will start to disappear, and that burn spell will then also start to disappear from the metagame until it evens itself out again.
Modern: RW R/W Burn WB B/W TokensXU MonuU Tron // UWX UW Tron R GoblinsW Soul SistersRWG Small ZooWUR WUR Geist/Control/Kiki-Resto Combo/NahiriUR Splinter Twin (90% Japanese)/ Grixis TwinRUB UR Delver / Grixis Delver UR Blue MoonBWU Ad NauseamWDeath and TaxesRUB Grixis ControlUMerfolksX Affinity RGB Living End UR Storm/PiF Combo RGX R/G TRON GWU Bant Eldrazi BW Eldrazi and Taxes RUBGoryos Vengeance UB Faeries Legacy:BRx Renimator Playing right now:Standard: Jeskai Control Modern; GoryosVengeance/UBFaeries/Affinity Legacy: BRx Reanimator Pauper: UR Drake (banned) Commander: Merieke Ri Berit Esper
Yeah, this thread isn't going anywhere productive.
Thread locked
If you want to discuss banning or unbanning cards, do so in the official banlist thread
If you want to discuss printing a new card entirely, do so in the Print This Wizards thread
If you want to discuss reprinting old cards to add to Modern, do so in the Reprint thread
And if you want to discuss metagame adaptations that could be made, head over to the metagame discussion thread
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Over-Extended/Modern Since 2010
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The 'Bolt Test' is commonly known and defines if a creature is playable in Modern.
But there are quite some creatures that would have lots of modern potencial if Bolt wouldn't be as oppressive as it is (Vampire Nighthawk, Prophetic Flamespeaker, Mantis Rider, Spellheart Chimera just to name a few).
So my idea for this thread is to brainstorm possibilities to lower Lightning Bolts meta share.
We will NOT discuss a banning of Bolt (or any other card) here.
Possibilites could be new mechanics (maybe something like 'this creature can't be dealt noncombat damage'), new cards to be printed to somehow 'hate' on Bolt or something completely different I don't know.
I just think that the format could be way more diverse if Bolt would't be as oppressive as it is and maybe together we can find a 'solution' for this problem.
Instant
Counter target spell with CMC 1 or less.
No phyrexian mana so you can't cast it for free but this can hit more targets than Mental Misstep.
being able to hit for 0 would really only hit chalice of the void and ornithopter in modern, in legacy and vintage being able to counter a 0 cost spell (for 1 blue which lets be honest just about everyone plays blue) it would really warp the format. Mental Misstep does work already in eternal formats where it's legal, no need to introduce a counter 0 cmc spell.
trinisphere
slippery bogle
chalice of the void
phytohydra
in fact i don't think there is an issue. if bolt wasn't the benchmark that creatures had to vaguely 'pass', then another card would be, and we'd be having exactly the same conversation except you'd be listing a handful of slightly different creatures which aren't passing this new benchmark.
it's kind of pointless really.
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
My idea isn't to dethrone Bolt but to create an environment where it's less prevalent. I'm not saying let's print super bolt that just does 4 damage more something like:
Split Card:
Shock / Burst /
Shock
Instant
Shock deals 2 damage to target creature or player
Burst
Instant
Burst deals 4 damage to target creature
I just a rough idea but this doesn't seem stronger than Bolt nor way worse. It kills small critters just as good as Bolt, is worse against 3 toughness guys but is able to kill the magical 4 toughness creatures (note that burst can only target creatures).
Also all the cards you mentioned are completely build around cards (besides hydra, but hydra is aweful). That's not what I'm looking for here because they people won't stop playing Bolts only because they are bad in one MU.
Good god no, this would have major impacts on Vintage for the worse. Trying to solve a problem in one format should not mean major harm to another.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
And btw, you could always use some of those cards as sideboard slots against e.g. against Junk and Pod, decks that do not play lightning bolt.
DECKS:
UB Faeries [Midrange/Tempo]
RWUGB Affinity[Aggro]
FAERIES TOO STRONK!!!1111
- Fae Prophecy, 201
5678You missed the steps (1 phyrexian blue)
counter target spell with CMC 1 that is not named ~
it won't. the entire idea is an empty one. "solving" the bolt problem would only create a different "bolt" that the author would likely moan about.
i'd lock it now tbh. nothing going on here.
Play the damn cards, everything dies.
It's all about timing for value.
Not looking too promising so far, I'll admit. Maybe an hour or two to prove me wrong.
Except that dismember can not hit a planeswalker, or your dome, same for the other cards you mention.
Bolt is too flexible.
That is not true. It has been the benchmark in every format it has ever been played in. It has warped or narrowed every format its been played in. I dont know how anyone can say it isnt over powered. It does multiple things, keeps cards out of formats, and effects deck building like no other card. That is the definition of over powering. If you figure the card is over powered now, it was broken in the early days of Magic. It kept creature strategies down.
Other than banning a card, or printing new cards, is there *any* other way to "fix" *any* modern metagame issue?
In order to make bolt less powerful, and allow 3-toughness cards to see the light of day, they would need to print stronger 1, 2, and 4 damage spells. Force red mages to decide *which* burn spells they want in their deck, but make it so that bolt is not an auto-include. If any of the burn spells become too powerful, one subset of creatures will start to disappear, and that burn spell will then also start to disappear from the metagame until it evens itself out again.
RW R/W Burn WB B/W TokensXU MonuU Tron // UWX UW Tron
R GoblinsW Soul SistersRWG Small ZooWUR WUR Geist/Control/Kiki-Resto Combo/NahiriUR Splinter Twin (90% Japanese)/ Grixis TwinRUB UR Delver / Grixis Delver UR Blue MoonBWU Ad NauseamWDeath and TaxesRUB Grixis ControlUMerfolksX Affinity RGB Living End UR Storm/PiF Combo RGX R/G TRON GWU Bant Eldrazi BW Eldrazi and Taxes RUBGoryos Vengeance UB Faeries
Legacy:BRx Renimator
Playing right now: Standard: Jeskai Control Modern; GoryosVengeance/UBFaeries/Affinity Legacy: BRx Reanimator Pauper: UR Drake (banned) Commander: Merieke Ri Berit Esper
Thread locked
If you want to discuss banning or unbanning cards, do so in the official banlist thread
If you want to discuss printing a new card entirely, do so in the Print This Wizards thread
If you want to discuss reprinting old cards to add to Modern, do so in the Reprint thread
And if you want to discuss metagame adaptations that could be made, head over to the metagame discussion thread