Delver: Delver, Snap, Young Peezy, Swiftspear, Thought Scour, Cruise, Dig, Pillar, Anger, (less known but still present) Swan Song, budget fetches, Izzet Charm, Magma Jet, Magma Spray.
Scapeshift: Most of the above mentioned cards and reprints.
Control: Trick question! Control doesnt exist! But, again, most of the above like Anger and Song.
Delver, Thought Scout and Snapcaster Mage were not in the last three blocks. Dig Through Time? Magma Jet? Anger of the Gods? Swan Song? Pillar of Flame? Magma Spray? The first two are just wrong, and the rest make occasional sideboard appearances. You're comparing these to five or more maindeck slots in every Pod deck putting up results (Voice of Resurgence, Sin Collector, Scavenging Ooze, Archangel of Thune, Siege Rhino, Abrupt Decay, Reclamation Sage, Eidolon of Rhetoric). It would be a serious understatement to say you're stretching the truth here.
That seems to be his MO.
"Pod didn't get anything new! Tt will go back to 2% when Delver is gone despite now playing 3x of the most pushed 4 drop in a while".
"Delver will be fine without Treasure Cruise, it's not like it wasn't Tier 2 before TC added mid-game survival to it's strenghts".
I simply cannot believe it's not entirely self interest anymore.
I never once claimed it would be back to 2%, not once. This is entirely exaggerating everything I have claimed. And Cruise will be just fine gone, Snapcasters are better IMO but more expensive. Dig is probably better, but costs more mana. It is a fair exchange when regarding a format's health.
However my claims were that without this much Delver we would still see a reasonable amount everywhere we turn. Pod too, though it would be balanced out by all the Twin, Affinity, Junk and other variety of teir 1 decks that exist. Its not like it will become some Jund like monsters, and don't compare it to this yet, its JUST reached over 20% for the first time and only due to Delver being so popular. When the time comes for the ban, ban it, but that time isn't now. Its holding the format together.
The whole GOAL of Tempo and Aggressive decks is they are SUPPOSED to get weaker the longer the games go on for. That's the reasoning behind Midrange being good at the mid/late game and NOT being good in the early game. That's the POINT. When a deck can handle all 3 spots of a game without blinking it causes problems for other decks and other goals it suppresses.
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Active Modern Decks
U Tron GW Bogles RG Loam UR Blue Breach RBU Grixis Goryo BRU Grixis Delver GBR Jund GBW Junk
Pod is more opressive in Modern than Stoneblade is in Legacy.
And Stoneblade runs Stoneforge, Batterskull, Jitte, Jace and True-Name Nemesis.
Keep on believing your deck is inoffensive.
From religiously reading tournament and Daily results, Pod is currently significantly more oppressive in Modern than Stoneblade is in Legacy. To me, Stoneblade doesn't look oppressive at all from its current results, while you can make valid arguments that Pod is currently oppressive (although I think the arguments that UR Delver is oppressive in both formats and Vintage are even more valid).
Now, does Pod cross the so-oppressive-that-something-in-it-must-be-banned line? Based on tournament results, I don't think so. I believe Wizards will leave the meta teetering on a less diverse edge for at least another set and ban/unban nothing--UR Delver performs surprisingly poorly in GP Top 8's, while I think Pod only got 3+ decks in the Top 8 in one post-KTK GP. The smaller tournaments that I've read about--and the Dailies--do look more unhealthy, though, although Delver generally dominates different tournaments from Pod from what I've read on TC Decks.
Sirius, you can't really define oppressive *in an MTG context* so I think a statement like "X is more oppressive than Y" is totally useless. Furthermore almost every pro would agree that Delver is the oppressive deck in modern right now, not Pod.
And Pod hasn't really seen that many more new additions in the last three blocks than Delver I would argue when you consider that two of the cards you listed were only briefly played in Pod and another 2-3 were VERY marginal improvements over cards that already existed.
Pod improvements: Decay, Shaman (which was quickly banned for being too good in every deck), Voice, Sin Collector, Eidolon, Sage (those last three cards being tiny improvements over pre-existing cards like harmonic sliver and canonist), Archangel, Rhino
Pod is like the Brainstorm of Modern. It helps different combo and midrange strategies be more consistent without being a win condition in and of itself. I dig it.
Sirius, you can't really define oppressive *in an MTG context* so I think a statement like "X is more oppressive than Y" is totally useless. Furthermore almost every pro would agree that Delver is the oppressive deck in modern right now, not Pod.
And Pod hasn't really seen that many more new additions in the last three blocks than Delver I would argue when you consider that two of the cards you listed were only briefly played in Pod and another 2-3 were VERY marginal improvements over cards that already existed.
Pod improvements: Decay, Shaman (which was quickly banned for being too good in every deck), Voice, Sin Collector, Eidolon, Sage (those last three cards being tiny improvements over pre-existing cards like harmonic sliver and canonist), Archangel, Rhino
And that doesn't even mention the fact that if you go back just 1 more block Delver gets even more than Pod.
Completely ignoring the fact that Pod has been Tier one since day 1 and keep getting stronger, while Delver was Tier 2 before KTK.
Ban Delver (because banning Treasure Cruise is banning delver), just don't cry that you have to play Tron or Pod next season, because the former meta is never coming back. Pod isn't the mystifying hard-skill-high-reward midrange combo deck it was. Junk Pod is a brute power toolbox, it's our Zur the Enchanter and will have the same effect he had on Duel Commander completely dying in America.
Hell next season people will be crying Ugin is OP and needs to be banned.
9. Burn (3 TC)
10. Angel Pod
11. Scapeshift
12. UR Delver
13. Angel Pod
14. Infect
15. Domain Zoo (Rhino + Tribal Flames)
16. UR Delver
17. RUG Twin
18. Burn (3 TC)
19. Affinity
20. Junk Pod
21. Merfolk
22. UR Delver
23. Angel Pod
24. Junk Pod
25. Junk Pod
26. Angel Pod
27. Angel Pod
28. Affinity
29. Scapeshift
30. Angel Pod
31. Bogles
32. UWR Delver
dat. is. a lot. of Pod.
1 in the T8
2 in the T16
7 in the T32
We know that there were 31 Pod decks in the day 2 metagame, accounting for 23% of the GP. With 10 Pods in the Top 32, that's a higher than expected performance rate (31% of the top 32 compared to 23% of the day 2 meta). Of course, it could be well within the acceptable range, statistically speaking. But statistics aside, that's definitely a lot o' Pod.
Anyone crying that Tron or Ugin is OP is an idiot. Banning cruise solves many problems in my opinion, it lets Delver play Dig and continue to be powerful but it hopefully pushes delver out of OP range which should give room for Tron to slide back into the meta and significantly lower the winrate of pod.
And I also don't really see the relevance of when these decks came to fruition in Tier 1. All that says to me is that Delver got enough new material between Innistrad and now to go from not existing to being the best deck in the format while Pod has stayed consistently strong because pod is just a fundamentally powerful card as long as there are creatures with valuable ETB effects.
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Modern UMerfolk GBWMelira PodRIP GBW Abzan Midrange GBR Jund Midrange
We know that there were 31 Pod decks in the day 2 metagame, accounting for 23% of the GP. With 10 Pods in the Top 32, that's a higher than expected performance rate (31% of the top 32 compared to 23% of the day 2 meta). Of course, it could be well within the acceptable range, statistically speaking. But statistics aside, that's definitely a lot o' Pod.
Wasn't 26% "problematic" when it was about Delver?
Are we moving goalposts?
We know that there were 31 Pod decks in the day 2 metagame, accounting for 23% of the GP. With 10 Pods in the Top 32, that's a higher than expected performance rate (31% of the top 32 compared to 23% of the day 2 meta). Of course, it could be well within the acceptable range, statistically speaking. But statistics aside, that's definitely a lot o' Pod.
Wasn't 26% "problematic" when it was about Delver?
Are we moving goalposts?
I would say that 26% would be problematic for the format meta, but top8 metas are often skewed a bit.
Granted, I'm not sure if that was what ktkenshinx was referring to or not.
If you banned Pod and nothing else tomorrow, I'd just replace my Pods with some more siege rhinos and resto angels and not feel particularly worse for wear.
Fallacy.
Take pod away from pod decks and all you have is a junk deck with birds and finks instead of goyfs and lilianas. Enjoy your losses.
If you banned Pod and nothing else tomorrow, I'd just replace my Pods with some more siege rhinos and resto angels and not feel particularly worse for wear.
I haven't followed the GP but I've heard that Ben Stark said some offensive things and him and Brian David Marshall apologized in camera. What was that exactly about?
9. Burn (3 TC)
10. Angel Pod
11. Scapeshift
12. UR Delver
13. Angel Pod
14. Infect
15. Domain Zoo (Rhino + Tribal Flames)
16. UR Delver
17. RUG Twin
18. Burn (3 TC)
19. Affinity
20. Junk Pod
21. Merfolk
22. UR Delver
23. Angel Pod
24. Junk Pod
25. Junk Pod
26. Angel Pod
27. Angel Pod
28. Affinity
29. Scapeshift
30. Angel Pod
31. Bogles
32. UWR Delver
dat. is. a lot. of Pod.
1 in the T8
2 in the T16
7 in the T32
We know that there were 31 Pod decks in the day 2 metagame, accounting for 23% of the GP. With 10 Pods in the Top 32, that's a higher than expected performance rate (31% of the top 32 compared to 23% of the day 2 meta). Of course, it could be well within the acceptable range, statistically speaking. But statistics aside, that's definitely a lot o' Pod.
where is Green white hatebear (however you spell the name of that lock down deck) to stop all of these birthing pod decks?
A couple anti burn can anti graveyard cards and its got a 50/50 for fighting delver as well.
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If you banned Pod and nothing else tomorrow, I'd just replace my Pods with some more siege rhinos and resto angels and not feel particularly worse for wear.
Fallacy.
Take pod away from pod decks and all you have is a junk deck with birds and finks instead of goyfs and lilianas. Enjoy your losses.
And a lot less consistency.
- L
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"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
? Since when was the pre-KTK meta broken because Twin was beating Pod?
Many people here on this forum were complaining for a Splinter Twin ban because it was "a consistent turn 4 win" deck that every deck has to "warp" their whole game plan around. I never have seen so much complaining about how broken Twin was, at least before Pre-Rhino Junk started gaining popularity and Abrupt Decay kept Twin down. People here even almost had me convinced that Twin should be banned (almost). Yet, certain places that I play at, Twin has a horrible time.
I agree with what Sirius said. RG Tron beats Pod because it goes over it and is redundant (4 Karns, 4 Wurmcoil Engines). RG Breach also goes over Pod, not bothering with the midrange battles, just trying to combo out. Pod pretty much has to win games 2 and 3 after 4 Thoughtseize, a 2nd Sin Collector, an Entomber Exarch, 2 Slaughter Games, and whatever else they have, comes in against RG Breach.
I will say that I would be pretty upset if Birthing Pod is banned. Even though Rhino is what made Pod ridiculous (and mainboarding Abrupt Decay over Chord of Calling), a Rhino banning would be even more stupid. I honestly don't know what the answer is other than more people playing Combo decks and Tron to beat Pod up. Part of the reason that Pod does well in my opinion is that it is a deck that has been around since the inception of Modern and people have the most play experience with it. Just look at known Pod gurus like LSV, Pardee, Jacob Wilson, and Josh McClain. Twin has what, one guy known like that? Other decks don't have guys that have stuck with a Modern deck for over a year.
While I agree with some of this, Affinity has Frank Karsten, who has been playing it for a while.
There is also Willy Edel for BG/x Midrange and Shaun McLaren for UWR.
If you banned Pod and nothing else tomorrow, I'd just replace my Pods with some more siege rhinos and resto angels and not feel particularly worse for wear.
Fallacy.
Take pod away from pod decks and all you have is a junk deck with birds and finks instead of goyfs and lilianas. Enjoy your losses.
Funny. We have seen Pod players side out Pods and still win games in events, yet you think removing Pod weakens the deck. You do understand the Junk deck that doesnt run Pods is on the rise also. I think its the 3rd deck in the format as of late.
I am by no means saying Pod should or will be banned.
I thought you knew more about magic my friend.
Of course you increase your win% if you side out Pod in certain matchups. So what? What counts is your overall win% against the field...
Pod dies with pod banned. It's obvious. If you want to play Abzan goodstuff you play what is known as Junk nowadays.
We know that there were 31 Pod decks in the day 2 metagame, accounting for 23% of the GP. With 10 Pods in the Top 32, that's a higher than expected performance rate (31% of the top 32 compared to 23% of the day 2 meta). Of course, it could be well within the acceptable range, statistically speaking. But statistics aside, that's definitely a lot o' Pod.
Wasn't 26% "problematic" when it was about Delver?
Are we moving goalposts?
T8 percentages are obviously judged differently than metagame perecentages. UR Delver was 25% of the GP Omaha T8 metagame. If UR Delver were 25% of the overall metagame throughout the format, then that would be BBE Jund levels of bad. But Delver is really only about 16% of the overall metagame, which is true both on day 2 at Omaha and true when you look at all paper events in the last 3-4 months.
Pod is like the Brainstorm of Modern. It helps different combo and midrange strategies be more consistent without being a win condition in and of itself. I dig it.
What different combo and midrange strategies is Birthing Pod helping? Kiki Pod is pretty much gone, so at this point there is essentially one pod list. It runs various combinations of combos or none at all, but all of them are BGW, all of them share about 70 cards, and all of them function exactly the same way save for the combo of choice. Worse than that, the Melira combo has pretty much fallen off the map which further homogenizes both deck lists and how the deck is played. Birthing Pod is not helping different combo and midrange strategies. It is making exactly one strategy very, very strong.
I haven't followed the GP but I've heard that Ben Stark said some offensive things and him and Brian David Marshall apologized in camera. What was that exactly about?
EDIT: it was apparently a case of joking around without knowing there was an open microphone.
Thanks. If I remember correctly Ben Stark also had a similar issue back in 2013. Did he stay on the mic after that? I'm not portuguese nor french but I could see people from both countries wanting to punch him in the face
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I never once claimed it would be back to 2%, not once. This is entirely exaggerating everything I have claimed. And Cruise will be just fine gone, Snapcasters are better IMO but more expensive. Dig is probably better, but costs more mana. It is a fair exchange when regarding a format's health.
However my claims were that without this much Delver we would still see a reasonable amount everywhere we turn. Pod too, though it would be balanced out by all the Twin, Affinity, Junk and other variety of teir 1 decks that exist. Its not like it will become some Jund like monsters, and don't compare it to this yet, its JUST reached over 20% for the first time and only due to Delver being so popular. When the time comes for the ban, ban it, but that time isn't now. Its holding the format together.
The whole GOAL of Tempo and Aggressive decks is they are SUPPOSED to get weaker the longer the games go on for. That's the reasoning behind Midrange being good at the mid/late game and NOT being good in the early game. That's the POINT. When a deck can handle all 3 spots of a game without blinking it causes problems for other decks and other goals it suppresses.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
From religiously reading tournament and Daily results, Pod is currently significantly more oppressive in Modern than Stoneblade is in Legacy. To me, Stoneblade doesn't look oppressive at all from its current results, while you can make valid arguments that Pod is currently oppressive (although I think the arguments that UR Delver is oppressive in both formats and Vintage are even more valid).
Now, does Pod cross the so-oppressive-that-something-in-it-must-be-banned line? Based on tournament results, I don't think so. I believe Wizards will leave the meta teetering on a less diverse edge for at least another set and ban/unban nothing--UR Delver performs surprisingly poorly in GP Top 8's, while I think Pod only got 3+ decks in the Top 8 in one post-KTK GP. The smaller tournaments that I've read about--and the Dailies--do look more unhealthy, though, although Delver generally dominates different tournaments from Pod from what I've read on TC Decks.
And Pod hasn't really seen that many more new additions in the last three blocks than Delver I would argue when you consider that two of the cards you listed were only briefly played in Pod and another 2-3 were VERY marginal improvements over cards that already existed.
Pod improvements: Decay, Shaman (which was quickly banned for being too good in every deck), Voice, Sin Collector, Eidolon, Sage (those last three cards being tiny improvements over pre-existing cards like harmonic sliver and canonist), Archangel, Rhino
Delver improvements: swiftspear, dig, cruise, pyromancer, keranos, izzet staticaster, electrickery, izzet charm
And that doesn't even mention the fact that if you go back just 1 more block Delver gets even more than Pod.
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
Completely ignoring the fact that Pod has been Tier one since day 1 and keep getting stronger, while Delver was Tier 2 before KTK.
Ban Delver (because banning Treasure Cruise is banning delver), just don't cry that you have to play Tron or Pod next season, because the former meta is never coming back. Pod isn't the mystifying hard-skill-high-reward midrange combo deck it was. Junk Pod is a brute power toolbox, it's our Zur the Enchanter and will have the same effect he had on Duel Commander completely dying in America.
Hell next season people will be crying Ugin is OP and needs to be banned.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpoma15/top-16-decklists-2015-01-11
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpoma15/top-32-decklists-2015-01-11
9. Burn (3 TC)
10. Angel Pod
11. Scapeshift
12. UR Delver
13. Angel Pod
14. Infect
15. Domain Zoo (Rhino + Tribal Flames)
16. UR Delver
17. RUG Twin
18. Burn (3 TC)
19. Affinity
20. Junk Pod
21. Merfolk
22. UR Delver
23. Angel Pod
24. Junk Pod
25. Junk Pod
26. Angel Pod
27. Angel Pod
28. Affinity
29. Scapeshift
30. Angel Pod
31. Bogles
32. UWR Delver
dat. is. a lot. of Pod.
1 in the T8
2 in the T16
7 in the T32
We know that there were 31 Pod decks in the day 2 metagame, accounting for 23% of the GP. With 10 Pods in the Top 32, that's a higher than expected performance rate (31% of the top 32 compared to 23% of the day 2 meta). Of course, it could be well within the acceptable range, statistically speaking. But statistics aside, that's definitely a lot o' Pod.
And I also don't really see the relevance of when these decks came to fruition in Tier 1. All that says to me is that Delver got enough new material between Innistrad and now to go from not existing to being the best deck in the format while Pod has stayed consistently strong because pod is just a fundamentally powerful card as long as there are creatures with valuable ETB effects.
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
Wasn't 26% "problematic" when it was about Delver?
Are we moving goalposts?
I would say that 26% would be problematic for the format meta, but top8 metas are often skewed a bit.
Granted, I'm not sure if that was what ktkenshinx was referring to or not.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Fallacy.
Take pod away from pod decks and all you have is a junk deck with birds and finks instead of goyfs and lilianas. Enjoy your losses.
Curious, what fallacy is he using?
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
And a lot of TC.
where is Green white hatebear (however you spell the name of that lock down deck) to stop all of these birthing pod decks?
A couple anti burn can anti graveyard cards and its got a 50/50 for fighting delver as well.
Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
---------------------------------------------------
Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
And a lot less consistency.
- L
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
There is also Willy Edel for BG/x Midrange and Shaun McLaren for UWR.
Funny. We have seen Pod players side out Pods and still win games in events, yet you think removing Pod weakens the deck. You do understand the Junk deck that doesnt run Pods is on the rise also. I think its the 3rd deck in the format as of late.
I am by no means saying Pod should or will be banned.
Of course you increase your win% if you side out Pod in certain matchups. So what? What counts is your overall win% against the field...
Pod dies with pod banned. It's obvious. If you want to play Abzan goodstuff you play what is known as Junk nowadays.
EDIT - Found it, January 19th.
T8 percentages are obviously judged differently than metagame perecentages. UR Delver was 25% of the GP Omaha T8 metagame. If UR Delver were 25% of the overall metagame throughout the format, then that would be BBE Jund levels of bad. But Delver is really only about 16% of the overall metagame, which is true both on day 2 at Omaha and true when you look at all paper events in the last 3-4 months.
What different combo and midrange strategies is Birthing Pod helping? Kiki Pod is pretty much gone, so at this point there is essentially one pod list. It runs various combinations of combos or none at all, but all of them are BGW, all of them share about 70 cards, and all of them function exactly the same way save for the combo of choice. Worse than that, the Melira combo has pretty much fallen off the map which further homogenizes both deck lists and how the deck is played. Birthing Pod is not helping different combo and midrange strategies. It is making exactly one strategy very, very strong.
'78 CB750F, '09 CBR600RR
Thanks. If I remember correctly Ben Stark also had a similar issue back in 2013. Did he stay on the mic after that? I'm not portuguese nor french but I could see people from both countries wanting to punch him in the face