am i the only one who thinks that it's not a fact of broken cards (pod&TC) but a fact of popularity? it's been 3 f****g months you all kept saying TC should be banned and POD is becoming oppressive cause of TC, and pros have helped amplyifing this thing (ASCENDANCY DOOM!!! where!?!??!). And keeping whining it became a plague on the modern format, in the US! Fact is that US keep and allways kept playing delver, fact is that you made magic a game of business where STC channel fireball and pros in general manipulate the people's minds for business, and you follow them like fishes. In EU delver and pod are decks like the others and have been omogenized with the other decks. Want proof? look at these modern events, and you'll find that here we don't give a clue of all these delvers TC pods ascendacy whines. Wake up and play some magic with you own creativity!
well, epic fail by me,actually nevermind that link, they didnt updated all the decklists of the PPTQ (40+ players) from italy, there were 10+ events but it seems they didn't want to record them on the website, so my link is useless
ppS: I'm not completely happy with the metagame by myself too, is still to BGx / UR centric, but i think the solution are unbans and new card printed, not bans, because in my opinion-> bans = you have the next spell as the most played // unbans/new cards = increase the popularity of that new card/unbanned card (if its power is adeguate) and decrease the older one, plus it shakes up the format)
and i still think the problem was wizard from the beginning: why the hell they printed a card with delve to draw 3?? was it so hard to figure that people would start playing it yealling "oh my god i can play ancestral recall in modern!!" when it's totally different?? was it hard to make it cost 2 less and draw 2? -.-
Do you think they should ban Siege Rhino in standard? People are talking about how diverse the format is but it's still very much built around 1 card that has even worse day 2 percentages than what you are bringing up here.
Standard is obviously a very different format from Modern for a number of reasons. As is Legacy. As is Vintage. So the way that we interpret their metagames would be very different from the way we might interpret ours. Would there be similarities? Sure! Would it be done in an identical way? Probably not.
All I know is that when Modern GPs look like this for a few months in a row, Wizards isn't happy. I would still like to see the T16, but that day 2 metagame is just horrible and it's hard to get around that fact.
So let's say the Tron raises as one of the top decks because it's an hard counter to pod and the 45% is dived between 3 decks, is the format still unhealthy?
Would need more information than just that. If we had a weird rock paper scissors metagame of Pod, Delver, and Tron, that wouldn't be that terrible. But the rest of the decks would matter too.
Pod isn't even broken, its very unlikely to be banned. Its an enabler that adds more to the format than what would replace it the second it leaves.
Except that it pushes out almost all creature decks because it's just better.
Not really true, but it is the only deck in the format that can run 30 creatures. You have to expect the best decks against it aren't other creature strategies because they will eventually run out of steam. It, however, embodies everything Wizards and most pro players expect and want from a format. Its a grindy deck that uses value and sometimes a combo to win. It is, however, not OP or too good, rather just consistent and most decks have a hard time keeping up that level of consistency.
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Active Modern Decks
U Tron GW Bogles RG Loam UR Blue Breach RBU Grixis Goryo BRU Grixis Delver GBR Jund GBW Junk
Are there really no vods for a wizards GP AGAIN????? I seriously wish Wizards could get their s*** together for once in their life and actually stream a GP with some degree of competency.
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Modern UMerfolk GBWMelira PodRIP GBW Abzan Midrange GBR Jund Midrange
The more I look at this T8, the less diverse it looks. Merfolk, Amulet, and Zoo are cool, but RG Tron and Valakut Breach have no business both being in a T8. That's a serious sign of warpage. Don't get me wrong; I like those decks and would love for them to be competitive. But the reason they are competitive is not because of a cyclical metagame. It's because of a tier 0.5 metagame of Pod and Delver.
That seems like an extremely unfair criticism of RG Tron and Valakut Breach. They are both decks with pro-active game plans that can make strong plays. What makes them any less worthy than Merfolk or Bloom Titan? Regardless of the "Tier 0.5 metagame", both of those decks could do fine against an open field.
You really can't deny it being a diverse Top 8, regardless of the lopsided Day 2 meta. The Day 2 meta is still cause for concern, but don't discredit deck types on a whim.
(If the Bloom Titan player had realized that he had the win for Game 2, even the finals of this event might have turned out differently.)
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The Modern Perspective - an article series all about Modern brought to you by PureMTGO.com
The more I look at this T8, the less diverse it looks. Merfolk, Amulet, and Zoo are cool, but RG Tron and Valakut Breach have no business both being in a T8. That's a serious sign of warpage. Don't get me wrong; I like those decks and would love for them to be competitive. But the reason they are competitive is not because of a cyclical metagame. It's because of a tier 0.5 metagame of Pod and Delver.
What makes Amulet different from RG Tron and Breach? All three of them try to win by going "over the top" of conventional strats. four aggro decks were represented in the top 8 and Pod was the only midrange deck. Despite the fact that their portion of the day 2 meta was small 3 of them managed to top 8. It looks like the "over the top" strategy was effective against the field.
Saying that the success of these decks is a sign of a warped metagame misses an important point. Nobody can deny the field is different than pre-Ktk and so I don't think its possible to say that a cyclical metagame could have even developed by this point due to the massive shakeup Delver has caused so I think it makes sense to see such large numbers of the "deck to beat" and pod. That said, couldn't these results be one of the first signs that decks exist that can bring the pair into check? If going over the top is as effective as it appears from this top 8 then I'd speculate that the popularity of those decks is sure to increase and bring a whole other set of predators (control?) with them which should supply plenty of variety, and isn't that how a cyclical metagame is supposed to start?
Compare this to the metagame of earlier this year which had a healthy exchange between Affinity, Twin, Scapeshift, BGx Midrange, Pod, etc. Now, we have a GP where 40% of the day2 metagame is either TC decks or decks that beat TC decks.
Have you checked your calendar lately? On topic the meta is healthy, this is a small sample size.
No, this is yet another data point that confirms that the metagame is unhealthy. Delver has never dropped below about 17% of the metagame since October, and Pod has been rising since mid-October from about 2-3% of the paper metagame to 17%+. That is not healthy and it's all on the back of TC and Delver. This metagame is just another degree worse than the day 2 metagames at the previous two GPs.
And why has it to be Delver's fault for being good and not Pod's fault for being the only deck that can beat any flavor of the month AND a plethora of other decks, at the same time?
Anything comes into popularity, and be it popular or not, Pod still shows up in the brackets because it's nearly impossible to sideboard against it and against any other archetype at the same time.
That seems like an extremely unfair criticism of RG Tron and Valakut Breach. They are both decks with pro-active game plans that can make strong plays. What makes them any less worthy than Merfolk or Bloom Titan?
They beat Pod. People in this site don't seem to like decks that beat Pod being viable competitors.
Pre-KTK Twin beat Pod? The meta is broken. Now Delver dies to Pod? The meta is still broken and it's Delver's fault because Pod IS Modern.
That seems like an extremely unfair criticism of RG Tron and Valakut Breach. They are both decks with pro-active game plans that can make strong plays. What makes them any less worthy than Merfolk or Bloom Titan?
They beat Pod. People in this site don't seem to like decks that beat Pod being viable competitors.
Pre-KTK Twin beat Pod? The meta is broken. Now Delver dies to Pod? The meta is still broken and it's Delver's fault because Pod IS Modern.
? Since when was the pre-KTK meta broken because Twin was beating Pod?
ktkenshinx I find it REALLY hard to keep defending Pod. You can say that Pod is only good right now now because it's metagaming against Delver, but take a look at the following 12 GP winners since the Second Sunrise ban.
GP Portland - May 11-12: Pod
GP Kansas City - July 6-7: Pod
GP Detroit - September 14-15: Pod
GP Brisbane - October 5-6: Affinity
GP Antwerp - October 26-27: Twin
GP Prague - January 10-12: UWR Midrange
GP Richmond - March 7-8: Pod
GP Boston - July 25-27: Junk
GP Kobe - August 22-24: Burn
GP Madrid - November 14-16: RUG Delver
GP Milan - December 13-14: Pod
GP Omaha - January 10-11: Pod
Pod has won SIX out of the last 12 GP's. NO OTHER DECK HAS ABOVE ONE WIN. Affinity, RUG Delver, Burn, UWR Midrange, Twin, and Junk each have one. Pre-KTK or post-KTK, Pod has take more wins than any other deck by far, and it's never in its existence been the most played deck in Modern. If I ever want to win a GP, I'd be stupid not to play Pod.
I gather that Wizards will keep defending Pod because it's a midrange deck, which they like, and doesn't violate the turn 4 rule. I think this deck has been broken for far too long, and the sooner we let it go, the better everyone will be.
ktkenshinx I find it REALLY hard to keep defending Pod. You can say that Pod is only good right now now because it's metagaming against Delver, but take a look at the following 12 GP winners since the Second Sunrise ban.
GP Portland - May 11-12: Pod
GP Kansas City - July 6-7: Pod
GP Detroit - September 14-15: Pod
GP Brisbane - October 5-6: Affinity
GP Antwerp - October 26-27: Twin
GP Prague - January 10-12: UWR Midrange
GP Richmond - March 7-8: Pod
GP Boston - July 25-27: Junk
GP Kobe - August 22-24: Burn
GP Madrid - November 14-16: RUG Delver
GP Milan - December 13-14: Pod
GP Omaha - January 10-11: Pod
Pod has won SIX out of the last 12 GP's. NO OTHER DECK HAS ABOVE ONE WIN. Affinity, RUG Delver, Burn, UWR Midrange, Twin, and Junk each have one. Pre-KTK or post-KTK, Pod has take more wins than any other deck by far, and it's never in its existence been the most played deck in Modern.
I gather that Wizards will keep defending Pod because it's a midrange deck, which they like, and doesn't violate the turn 4 rule. I think this deck has been broken for far too long, and the sooner we let it go, the better everyone will be.
I just don't care too much about GP T8s. I think I used to care more about them before we had access to more data. These days, I personally care much more about metagame prevalence. That includes both overall metagame shares across paper/online events, and also day 2 metagames at major events. It is unclear which one Wizards cares about more, or if they are equally important for them. One is obviously more high profile, even if the other is probably more representative. But in a game that is all about high profile events, it is possible that the profile of a deck matters more than its format-wide prevalence.
ktkenshinx I find it REALLY hard to keep defending Pod. You can say that Pod is only good right now now because it's metagaming against Delver, but take a look at the following 12 GP winners since the Second Sunrise ban.
GP Portland - May 11-12: Pod
GP Kansas City - July 6-7: Pod
GP Detroit - September 14-15: Pod
GP Brisbane - October 5-6: Affinity
GP Antwerp - October 26-27: Twin
GP Prague - January 10-12: UWR Midrange
GP Richmond - March 7-8: Pod
GP Boston - July 25-27: Junk
GP Kobe - August 22-24: Burn
GP Madrid - November 14-16: RUG Delver
GP Milan - December 13-14: Pod
GP Omaha - January 10-11: Pod
Pod has won SIX out of the last 12 GP's. NO OTHER DECK HAS ABOVE ONE WIN. Affinity, RUG Delver, Burn, UWR Midrange, Twin, and Junk each have one. Pre-KTK or post-KTK, Pod has take more wins than any other deck by far, and it's never in its existence been the most played deck in Modern. If I ever want to win a GP, I'd be stupid not to play Pod.
I gather that Wizards will keep defending Pod because it's a midrange deck, which they like, and doesn't violate the turn 4 rule. I think this deck has been broken for far too long, and the sooner we let it go, the better everyone will be.
and yet we have people here defending pod and stating pod isn't too strong, isn't oped when results of almost all the GP have clearly stated the opposite.. i can't help but be amused at the hypocrisy at times..
I think it's worth pointing out that during this time DRS was banned which did somewhat significantly affect the midrange power of Pod, and Pod is weaker now than it was before that ban. We should consider what the deck currently looks like when considering whether or not pod should be banned, not on its history where DRS was still legal.
Furthermore you're missing GP Minneapolis in 2014, so the list of modern GP winners since the banning of DRS is actually:
GP Richmond - March 7-8: Pod
GP Minneapolis - May 9-11: Scapeshift
GP Boston - July 25-27: Junk
GP Kobe - August 22-24: Burn
GP Madrid - November 14-16: RUG Delver
GP Milan - December 13-14: Pod
GP Omaha - January 10-11: Pod
Now the winrate of Pod at GPs is 3/7, two of which are during the current era of busted cruise decks in which Pod happens to beat the best deck in the format pretty consistently. Just to further that point, I think the 3 recent GP winners being Delver, Pod, Pod goes to show that the current meta mostly boils down to playing Delver or playing pod to beat delver.
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Modern UMerfolk GBWMelira PodRIP GBW Abzan Midrange GBR Jund Midrange
That seems like an extremely unfair criticism of RG Tron and Valakut Breach. They are both decks with pro-active game plans that can make strong plays. What makes them any less worthy than Merfolk or Bloom Titan?
They beat Pod. People in this site don't seem to like decks that beat Pod being viable competitors.
Pre-KTK Twin beat Pod? The meta is broken. Now Delver dies to Pod? The meta is still broken and it's Delver's fault because Pod IS Modern.
? Since when was the pre-KTK meta broken because Twin was beating Pod?
You may not have complained about it personally but in the threads in this forums and LGS one of the most popular topics was how much people hated Twin and how Pod always shows up.
Pod used to have some mysticism about it because it was hard to play, but now, **** it, it's Cali Nightmare/Zur the Enchanter all over again.
ktkenshinx I find it REALLY hard to keep defending Pod. You can say that Pod is only good right now now because it's metagaming against Delver, but take a look at the following 12 GP winners since the Second Sunrise ban.
GP Portland - May 11-12: Pod
GP Kansas City - July 6-7: Pod
GP Detroit - September 14-15: Pod
GP Brisbane - October 5-6: Affinity
GP Antwerp - October 26-27: Twin
GP Prague - January 10-12: UWR Midrange
GP Richmond - March 7-8: Pod
GP Boston - July 25-27: Junk
GP Kobe - August 22-24: Burn
GP Madrid - November 14-16: RUG Delver
GP Milan - December 13-14: Pod
GP Omaha - January 10-11: Pod
Pod has won SIX out of the last 12 GP's. NO OTHER DECK HAS ABOVE ONE WIN. Affinity, RUG Delver, Burn, UWR Midrange, Twin, and Junk each have one. Pre-KTK or post-KTK, Pod has take more wins than any other deck by far, and it's never in its existence been the most played deck in Modern.
I gather that Wizards will keep defending Pod because it's a midrange deck, which they like, and doesn't violate the turn 4 rule. I think this deck has been broken for far too long, and the sooner we let it go, the better everyone will be.
I just don't care too much about GP T8s. I think I used to care more about them before we had access to more data. These days, I personally care much more about metagame prevalence. That includes both overall metagame shares across paper/online events, and also day 2 metagames at major events. It is unclear which one Wizards cares about more, or if they are equally important for them. One is obviously more high profile, even if the other is probably more representative. But in a game that is all about high profile events, it is possible that the profile of a deck matters more than its format-wide prevalence.
So the problem is that Delver is popular, not that Pod wins half the tournaments wether it's popular or not?
I thought metagame discussions were biased against decks being overpowered and opressive, not against decks being beloved.
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Latina, Oedipus, loquituri id?
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http://www.metagame.it/liste-mazzi-modern.html
well, epic fail by me,actually nevermind that link, they didnt updated all the decklists of the PPTQ (40+ players) from italy, there were 10+ events but it seems they didn't want to record them on the website, so my link is useless
ppS: I'm not completely happy with the metagame by myself too, is still to BGx / UR centric, but i think the solution are unbans and new card printed, not bans, because in my opinion-> bans = you have the next spell as the most played // unbans/new cards = increase the popularity of that new card/unbanned card (if its power is adeguate) and decrease the older one, plus it shakes up the format)
The top 10 spells all being in MBD would be accurate too.
Would need more information than just that. If we had a weird rock paper scissors metagame of Pod, Delver, and Tron, that wouldn't be that terrible. But the rest of the decks would matter too.
"OMG mah brahken tut0rz might get banhammerzed!! T.T".
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
... Yep, I believe you are right.
Except that it pushes out almost all creature decks because it's just better.
Not really true, but it is the only deck in the format that can run 30 creatures. You have to expect the best decks against it aren't other creature strategies because they will eventually run out of steam. It, however, embodies everything Wizards and most pro players expect and want from a format. Its a grindy deck that uses value and sometimes a combo to win. It is, however, not OP or too good, rather just consistent and most decks have a hard time keeping up that level of consistency.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
You really can't deny it being a diverse Top 8, regardless of the lopsided Day 2 meta. The Day 2 meta is still cause for concern, but don't discredit deck types on a whim.
(If the Bloom Titan player had realized that he had the win for Game 2, even the finals of this event might have turned out differently.)
What makes Amulet different from RG Tron and Breach? All three of them try to win by going "over the top" of conventional strats. four aggro decks were represented in the top 8 and Pod was the only midrange deck. Despite the fact that their portion of the day 2 meta was small 3 of them managed to top 8. It looks like the "over the top" strategy was effective against the field.
Saying that the success of these decks is a sign of a warped metagame misses an important point. Nobody can deny the field is different than pre-Ktk and so I don't think its possible to say that a cyclical metagame could have even developed by this point due to the massive shakeup Delver has caused so I think it makes sense to see such large numbers of the "deck to beat" and pod. That said, couldn't these results be one of the first signs that decks exist that can bring the pair into check? If going over the top is as effective as it appears from this top 8 then I'd speculate that the popularity of those decks is sure to increase and bring a whole other set of predators (control?) with them which should supply plenty of variety, and isn't that how a cyclical metagame is supposed to start?
And why has it to be Delver's fault for being good and not Pod's fault for being the only deck that can beat any flavor of the month AND a plethora of other decks, at the same time?
Anything comes into popularity, and be it popular or not, Pod still shows up in the brackets because it's nearly impossible to sideboard against it and against any other archetype at the same time.
They beat Pod. People in this site don't seem to like decks that beat Pod being viable competitors.
Pre-KTK Twin beat Pod? The meta is broken. Now Delver dies to Pod? The meta is still broken and it's Delver's fault because Pod IS Modern.
? Since when was the pre-KTK meta broken because Twin was beating Pod?
GP Portland - May 11-12: Pod
GP Kansas City - July 6-7: Pod
GP Detroit - September 14-15: Pod
GP Brisbane - October 5-6: Affinity
GP Antwerp - October 26-27: Twin
GP Prague - January 10-12: UWR Midrange
GP Richmond - March 7-8: Pod
GP Boston - July 25-27: Junk
GP Kobe - August 22-24: Burn
GP Madrid - November 14-16: RUG Delver
GP Milan - December 13-14: Pod
GP Omaha - January 10-11: Pod
Pod has won SIX out of the last 12 GP's. NO OTHER DECK HAS ABOVE ONE WIN. Affinity, RUG Delver, Burn, UWR Midrange, Twin, and Junk each have one. Pre-KTK or post-KTK, Pod has take more wins than any other deck by far, and it's never in its existence been the most played deck in Modern. If I ever want to win a GP, I'd be stupid not to play Pod.
I gather that Wizards will keep defending Pod because it's a midrange deck, which they like, and doesn't violate the turn 4 rule. I think this deck has been broken for far too long, and the sooner we let it go, the better everyone will be.
I just don't care too much about GP T8s. I think I used to care more about them before we had access to more data. These days, I personally care much more about metagame prevalence. That includes both overall metagame shares across paper/online events, and also day 2 metagames at major events. It is unclear which one Wizards cares about more, or if they are equally important for them. One is obviously more high profile, even if the other is probably more representative. But in a game that is all about high profile events, it is possible that the profile of a deck matters more than its format-wide prevalence.
Furthermore you're missing GP Minneapolis in 2014, so the list of modern GP winners since the banning of DRS is actually:
GP Richmond - March 7-8: Pod
GP Minneapolis - May 9-11: Scapeshift
GP Boston - July 25-27: Junk
GP Kobe - August 22-24: Burn
GP Madrid - November 14-16: RUG Delver
GP Milan - December 13-14: Pod
GP Omaha - January 10-11: Pod
Now the winrate of Pod at GPs is 3/7, two of which are during the current era of busted cruise decks in which Pod happens to beat the best deck in the format pretty consistently. Just to further that point, I think the 3 recent GP winners being Delver, Pod, Pod goes to show that the current meta mostly boils down to playing Delver or playing pod to beat delver.
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
You may not have complained about it personally but in the threads in this forums and LGS one of the most popular topics was how much people hated Twin and how Pod always shows up.
Pod used to have some mysticism about it because it was hard to play, but now, **** it, it's Cali Nightmare/Zur the Enchanter all over again.
So the problem is that Delver is popular, not that Pod wins half the tournaments wether it's popular or not?
I thought metagame discussions were biased against decks being overpowered and opressive, not against decks being beloved.