Good news: Junk may have been 30% of the PT metagame, but that share never carried over into Paper or MTGO! Today, it's just 15%! So things aren't necessarily as bad as they seem.
Bad news: Junk's prevalence in the winner's bracket might not actually represent the true prevalence. Some people believe it is much higher.
Bad news part 2: Even if Junk's share isn't as high as people claim, it still might feel very high.
Bad news part 3: The Junk may not be as bad as Skullclamp Elf and Nail or Ca-caw ca-caw Blade, but it's still not the most joyful deck to play against.
Bad news part 4: Tasigur is making waves...
These are just some of the reasons why people are more than a little unhappy with Junk's presence in Modern. But we aren't here just to talk about how unhappy we are, to rage at anyone who has ever cast Inquisition of Kozilek, and to lament the downfall of all things Modern. We are here to beat the ***** out of Junk (because no anti-Junk thread is complete without some choice words).
So, how do we wreck those pesky Junk mages (using cards, not by flaming)? Here are some ideas to kick things off.
So many options! So little sideboard/maindeck space!
Before we dive into the obliteration of all things Junk, let's remember the following:
1. NO FLAMING. I know these kind of threads can be problematic, but we already shut down one because of flaming. Let's keep this strategic.
2. NO BAN TALK. If you want to talk about how the way to beat Junk is to ban Lily and Goyf, take it to the ban thread.
3. REPORT; DON'T RESPOND. If someone is breaking rules or causing trouble, just report them. Don't start a fight.
-ktkenshinx-
My gut says that absolutely no good can come out of this. But as usual, I'll ignore that and let this ride to see where it goes.
EDIT: That said, I'm editing part of the first thread so it doesn't have misinformation. The OP missed some key references in the post he is trying to emulate and it comes off as misleading in this post.
Smiter and Baloth both turn off Lily+1, and can even be forced into play from TS/IoK (lacking another option in-hand). Dodeca should certainly be there!
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Chain raw card advantage/card draw. Cryptic Command, Sphinx's Revelation, Esper Charm, Jace's Ingenuity, etc. Abzan plans to play a ton of 1 for 1's and end with the biggest threat, the best way to beat them is with raw card advantage and better bombs.
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I know this is a thread inception, but I'll respond anyway.
Bg/x is actually very fragile once you understand it. It attempts to trade resources one for one and win with superior top decks. Break open either or both of those and you beat it.
Because it is really built to beat Liliana of the Veil, which is not a great plan.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I know this is a thread inception, but I'll respond anyway.
Bg/x is actually very fragile once you understand it. It attempts to trade resources one for one and win with superior top decks. Break open either or both of those and you beat it.
Yeah, I think we already know how to beat Junk. Just play super linear and/or redundant decks that invalidate the one-for-one removal of Abzan. We've basically known this since last summer when Burn rose from tier 2-3 casual status to take down GP Kobe. The recent PT and GP both confirmed that this was a good approach, adding different decks alongside the traditional nemesis to BGx.
If you really don't know how to beat junk (doubtful) it is very easy actually.
You can go under them with super fast decks like Affinity or Burn. You can go over them with big threats like Wurmcoil Engine, Batterskull using a Control or Tron deck.
You can cast Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre out of the sideboard like my opponent did last night (Both Paths had took out Wurmcoils )
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Abzan tends to win by pushing 1 for 1s while sticking quality hard to answer creatures. The deck can either go big with stuff like Tasigur, Rhino, Tarmogoyf or it can go wide with Lingering Souls or Voice of Resurgence. This means that depending on their plan in any specific game you need to have some very specific answers which will likely get snatched out of your hand by Thoughtseize/Duress/Inquisition. I do agree that quality removal and card draw go a long way in beating them but all that 1 mana discard is really difficult to deal with. I think negating the targeted discard is the first step in really beating abzan.
Unfortunately every try hard from Sacramento to Shanghai preaches from the top of their 27 lands + Mana Reflection that Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch are fine to play in the same turn but Armageddon is unfair.
To be fair Abzan can beat Burn and Affinity if they drag the game to turn 5, or clear the first hand, respectively.
It's a very sturdy deck that has game even against it's bad matches.
Bigger threats seems like the best option if you're not playing aggrocombo, rather than trying to adopt their speed into your gameplan.
Abzan/junk is the deck that responds to more other decks better than everyone else. That's why it's resilient. How do you want to beat them? Go bigger with wurmcoils? How about go faster with affinity or burn? How about out-value them with sweepers? Land disruption with blood moon? All in all junk is a fair deck, so to beat them you play something that beats fair decks. Two decks that drill junk are living end and gifts. I'm sure there are other bad matchups for them, bogles maybe? The issue on tour is to top 8 you need to beat junk and twin, a tall order for any single deck.
Another part of the question here is where are we drawing the line at what is "junk" or abzan. The little kid junk is a much different build from abzan with liliana, in fact LKJ beats up abzan. Are we trying to beat both?
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Modern UB Tezzerator UBW Gifts B 8Rack
Legacy RB Goblins
I know this is a thread inception, but I'll respond anyway.
Bg/x is actually very fragile once you understand it. It attempts to trade resources one for one and win with superior top decks. Break open either or both of those and you beat it.
Yeah, I think we already know how to beat Junk. Just play super linear and/or redundant decks that invalidate the one-for-one removal of Abzan. We've basically known this since last summer when Burn rose from tier 2-3 casual status to take down GP Kobe. The recent PT and GP both confirmed that this was a good approach, adding different decks alongside the traditional nemesis to BGx.
I don't think that's necessarily fair to sum up beating junk as: play linear, non-interactive decks. These weren't the answers that people wanted in the burn thread (e.g. telling someone to play not-Grixis Delver was not well received) and it led to (in my opinion) decent discussionthere. And I think we could have the same thing here.
Monastery Siege can be potentially useful, making them spend more on stuff until they remove it, and making their abrupt decay cost cmc 4 to use on it, if you land 2 monastery sieges in that mode, suddenly their AD's cost cmc 6 and their targeted discard cost 5! If they are discarding it, they aren't discarding your gas. More of a sideboard card of course in most cases, but potentially mainboard in combo decks that want to use it's other mode to dig faster.
AD can't deal with indestructible enchantments like the Theros gods Thassa, although they are still vulnerable to being discarded of course.
Goyf is of course somewhat vulnerable to graveyard hate, including Relic mentioned in the OP, as well as Rest in Peace if you aren't worried about your own graveyard and are in white, although don't forget they can hit it with Abrupt Decay and immediately get enchantment and instant into the graveyards as a result, so keep an eye on the combat math in that way.
Leyline of Sanctity shouldn't be underestimated, not only does it stop most of their discard and Lili's -2, but it also is immune to Abrupt Decay due to being a cmc 4 spell, and thus it can be protected by your counterspells against Maelstrom Pulses.
Goyf has no evasion, and the deck is pretty reliant on discard, so Lingering Souls can be useful to create chump blockers vs. Goyf, although don't forget Maelstrom Pulses will get rid of them all at once.
Remember that they are often relatively creature light and Goyf remains vulnerable to most non-burn removal, while Lily can be attacked or burned directly, so a high number of removal spells that can get rid of Goyf can help you if you push through their discard.
I quite like UWR control's position over junk. Game one isn't even that bad unless they go discard into goyf into liliana.
Electrolyze trades favourably with souls
With so few creatures hitting the graveyard ooze likely just dies to a bolt/helix
Path + snapcaster give you 8 hard answers to their 12 5 toughness creatures and even a bolt + electrolyze is a straight 1 for 1. There's plenty of other creative options using snapcaster and bolts as well.
They are only playing 1 or 2 lands less than you so in top deck mode they can hit (give or take) 7 discard spells and 7 removal spells which makes for 14 potential dead draws. Your 'dead' draws like burn can just go the face if needed. I guess the only true dead card is mana leak after they hit 7 lands. Then ofc there's the fact you have a gameover topdeck of revelation for 6 or something. The worst thing for you is if they hit a rhino or something but you'll still have a few turns to draw an answer.
I actually hate postboard games though. decklists are so wildly different. I've had decks that then board in a bunch of extra discard, decks that board in thruns, land destruction, batterskull, choke. Having answers to all this is not fun.
I generally board in 2 celestial purge as answers for liliana, rhino and tasigur.
2 wrath of god come in and if there is thrun great if not it still clears the board and gets past any potential golari charm
Lastly 1 wear/tear comes in as a catch all to any potential artifact/enchantment problem and if I actually see a choke or something the 2nd comes in for game 3.
That being said control is very much a gamblers deck it's a case of needing the right answers at the right time. Keeping a solid hand in the dark say 3 lands, snapaster, mana leak, cryptic and a bolt will just get wrecked by discard. If I know it's junk I would much rather keep a 6 lander and just hope the top of the deck has the right answers since answers in my hand will likely get discarded anyway.
Option 1: Play extremely fast aggro.
Option 2: Play a fair deck that is extremely redundant.
Option 3: Play a deck that tries to take advantage of the discard Junk will be throwing at you.
Option 4: Play Blood Moon.
Burn and Affinity both cover steps one and two, while Little Kid covers two and three. My pet deck also covers two and three while also running Liliana, so there is that. A number of rouge decks could afford to main deck Blood Moon, which can be an absolute beating for Junk, which is part of the reason Twin has started running them. With Junk you either out value them, manage to gain CA, or you attack their weak point, which is their lands. If you can find a way to gain card advantage through all the discard, you've probably won. If you can 2-1 them better than they can 2-1 you, your ahead. If you can punish their greedy mana base your doing well for yourself.
Junk and Jund are really good at what they do, but they are far from unbeatable. You have several avenues to explore when attempting to beat them, which leaves you with several options for sideboards, depending on the deck.
To be honest I think this "line" of threads is a bit silly but I just wanted to add that saying "oh just play x card" is a bit unfair. Junk is very much a goodstuff deck and by design doesn't roll over to a single resolved hate spell (well, maybe Blood Moon if they can't take it with hand disruption). There are some decks that have a good matchup against it, maybe even slightly advantageous, but there is no deck in Modern that can honestly say that Junk is an easy matchup or a bye.
In fairness, an early Stony Silence from Abzan has usually been game over for tron in my experience. That said RG tron is one of the decks that can just obliterate abzan.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
To be honest I think this "line" of threads is a bit silly but I just wanted to add that saying "oh just play x card" is a bit unfair. Junk is very much a goodstuff deck and by design doesn't roll over to a single resolved hate spell (well, maybe Blood Moon if they can't take it with hand disruption). There are some decks that have a good matchup against it, maybe even slightly advantageous, but there is no deck in Modern that can honestly say that Junk is an easy matchup or a bye.
RG Tron says hi!
While I certainly understand that RG Tron should be difficult for Junk/Jund, I have a winning record against it, and it's a fairly wide margin. There aren't many Tron players where I'm from, though, so maybe if it were more popular my record would even out. But I'm posting this basically to just reinforce that even that matchup can't be considered a "bye."
RG Tron isn't quite as favored against Junk as it was against Jund to begin with, but the struggle for Tron is that Junk has a lot of nasty hate cards it can board in, and are likely to have in the board because they know Tron is a poor matchup. Kinda like how even if Scapeshift is advantaged against Tron normally, it basically dies to a Slaughter Games from that Tron deck.
I've been thinking about this, how to beat Abzan, since here in Belgium the meta is infested with it.
Uwr really does not have a good matchup against Abzan, I don care if you have Souls for Lilli and Elecrtolyze for opposing Souls, the deck is too reactive.
Honestly I think BW tokens looks favored against Abzan, as does Liege Abzan. RG Tron has a less good matchup against Abzan because Abzan can deal with Wurmcoil with Path, and they board in Stony Silence and Fulminator Mage. I would say the best bet to beat Abzan midrange is Tokens or Liege Abzan, both for te same reason: Abzan tries to trade 1 for 1 with resources and those decks just overwhelm Abzan, tokens does it with tokens, and Liege has Finks/Souls/Smiter/Liege. All of Abzan's removal looks like utter garbage against those decks.
UWR has not a good matchup since Lightning Bolt, Electrolyze and Lightning Helix don't do anything versus Tarmogoyf, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Siege Rhino and all the other stuff there are playing.
Might as well point them all at their dome since that is still better than 2-for-1ing yourself on pretty much everything they are playing.
Because it is really built to beat Liliana of the Veil, which is not a great plan.
I would say that the smaller more aggro versions of abzan are clearly geared toward beating the bigger more mid range junk decks. They are packing playsets of hierarchs plus gavony township as well as the cards the poop on liliana.
WIth that being said, "little abzan" as called in this thread has almost zero game vs any of the better combo decks in the format. Very little removal, very little diruption. Splinter twin eats these kinds of decks fro breakfast. Id rather be playing the thoughseize/kill everything/play big dumb animals deck that abzan is....and its very good at that.
I haven't actually tried it, but for your consideration, I hear good things about Blood Baron of Vizkopa out of the sideboard against Junk. It blanks all their removal except Liliana, and has protection against every creature except Goyf and Ooze. Not sure if those rates will cut it.
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Bad news: Junk's prevalence in the winner's bracket might not actually represent the true prevalence. Some people believe it is much higher.
Bad news part 2: Even if Junk's share isn't as high as people claim, it still might feel very high.
Bad news part 3: The Junk may not be as bad as Skullclamp Elf and Nail or Ca-caw ca-caw Blade, but it's still not the most joyful deck to play against.
Bad news part 4: Tasigur is making waves...
These are just some of the reasons why people are more than a little unhappy with Junk's presence in Modern. But we aren't here just to talk about how unhappy we are, to rage at anyone who has ever cast Inquisition of Kozilek, and to lament the downfall of all things Modern. We are here to beat the ***** out of Junk (because no anti-Junk thread is complete without some choice words).
So, how do we wreck those pesky Junk mages (using cards, not by flaming)? Here are some ideas to kick things off.
So many options! So little sideboard/maindeck space!
Before we dive into the obliteration of all things Junk, let's remember the following:
1. NO FLAMING. I know these kind of threads can be problematic, but we already shut down one because of flaming. Let's keep this strategic.
2. NO BAN TALK. If you want to talk about how the way to beat Junk is to ban Lily and Goyf, take it to the ban thread.
3. REPORT; DON'T RESPOND. If someone is breaking rules or causing trouble, just report them. Don't start a fight.
-ktkenshinx-
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
EDIT: That said, I'm editing part of the first thread so it doesn't have misinformation. The OP missed some key references in the post he is trying to emulate and it comes off as misleading in this post.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Aetherling is actually sweet against them if you can stick it. Elspeth, Sun's Champion trounces them. White Sun's Zenith is sweet in esper for grinding them out.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Bg/x is actually very fragile once you understand it. It attempts to trade resources one for one and win with superior top decks. Break open either or both of those and you beat it.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Because it is really built to beat Liliana of the Veil, which is not a great plan.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Yeah, I think we already know how to beat Junk. Just play super linear and/or redundant decks that invalidate the one-for-one removal of Abzan. We've basically known this since last summer when Burn rose from tier 2-3 casual status to take down GP Kobe. The recent PT and GP both confirmed that this was a good approach, adding different decks alongside the traditional nemesis to BGx.
You can go under them with super fast decks like Affinity or Burn. You can go over them with big threats like Wurmcoil Engine, Batterskull using a Control or Tron deck.
You can cast Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre out of the sideboard like my opponent did last night (Both Paths had took out Wurmcoils )
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
It's a very sturdy deck that has game even against it's bad matches.
Bigger threats seems like the best option if you're not playing aggrocombo, rather than trying to adopt their speed into your gameplan.
Another part of the question here is where are we drawing the line at what is "junk" or abzan. The little kid junk is a much different build from abzan with liliana, in fact LKJ beats up abzan. Are we trying to beat both?
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
I don't think that's necessarily fair to sum up beating junk as: play linear, non-interactive decks. These weren't the answers that people wanted in the burn thread (e.g. telling someone to play not-Grixis Delver was not well received) and it led to (in my opinion) decent discussionthere. And I think we could have the same thing here.
EDH: Xenagos, God of Revels.
AD can't deal with indestructible enchantments like the Theros gods Thassa, although they are still vulnerable to being discarded of course.
Hexproof and protection can stop Abrupt Decay, so things like Mizzium Skin, Gods Willing, Display of Dominance and Simic Charm can stop it where counterspells won't.
Goyf is of course somewhat vulnerable to graveyard hate, including Relic mentioned in the OP, as well as Rest in Peace if you aren't worried about your own graveyard and are in white, although don't forget they can hit it with Abrupt Decay and immediately get enchantment and instant into the graveyards as a result, so keep an eye on the combat math in that way.
Leyline of Sanctity shouldn't be underestimated, not only does it stop most of their discard and Lili's -2, but it also is immune to Abrupt Decay due to being a cmc 4 spell, and thus it can be protected by your counterspells against Maelstrom Pulses.
Goyf has no evasion, and the deck is pretty reliant on discard, so Lingering Souls can be useful to create chump blockers vs. Goyf, although don't forget Maelstrom Pulses will get rid of them all at once.
Remember that they are often relatively creature light and Goyf remains vulnerable to most non-burn removal, while Lily can be attacked or burned directly, so a high number of removal spells that can get rid of Goyf can help you if you push through their discard.
Electrolyze trades favourably with souls
With so few creatures hitting the graveyard ooze likely just dies to a bolt/helix
Path + snapcaster give you 8 hard answers to their 12 5 toughness creatures and even a bolt + electrolyze is a straight 1 for 1. There's plenty of other creative options using snapcaster and bolts as well.
They are only playing 1 or 2 lands less than you so in top deck mode they can hit (give or take) 7 discard spells and 7 removal spells which makes for 14 potential dead draws. Your 'dead' draws like burn can just go the face if needed. I guess the only true dead card is mana leak after they hit 7 lands. Then ofc there's the fact you have a gameover topdeck of revelation for 6 or something. The worst thing for you is if they hit a rhino or something but you'll still have a few turns to draw an answer.
I actually hate postboard games though. decklists are so wildly different. I've had decks that then board in a bunch of extra discard, decks that board in thruns, land destruction, batterskull, choke. Having answers to all this is not fun.
I generally board in 2 celestial purge as answers for liliana, rhino and tasigur.
2 wrath of god come in and if there is thrun great if not it still clears the board and gets past any potential golari charm
Lastly 1 wear/tear comes in as a catch all to any potential artifact/enchantment problem and if I actually see a choke or something the 2nd comes in for game 3.
That being said control is very much a gamblers deck it's a case of needing the right answers at the right time. Keeping a solid hand in the dark say 3 lands, snapaster, mana leak, cryptic and a bolt will just get wrecked by discard. If I know it's junk I would much rather keep a 6 lander and just hope the top of the deck has the right answers since answers in my hand will likely get discarded anyway.
Option 2: Play a fair deck that is extremely redundant.
Option 3: Play a deck that tries to take advantage of the discard Junk will be throwing at you.
Option 4: Play Blood Moon.
Burn and Affinity both cover steps one and two, while Little Kid covers two and three. My pet deck also covers two and three while also running Liliana, so there is that. A number of rouge decks could afford to main deck Blood Moon, which can be an absolute beating for Junk, which is part of the reason Twin has started running them. With Junk you either out value them, manage to gain CA, or you attack their weak point, which is their lands. If you can find a way to gain card advantage through all the discard, you've probably won. If you can 2-1 them better than they can 2-1 you, your ahead. If you can punish their greedy mana base your doing well for yourself.
Junk and Jund are really good at what they do, but they are far from unbeatable. You have several avenues to explore when attempting to beat them, which leaves you with several options for sideboards, depending on the deck.
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
UWR has not a good matchup since Lightning Bolt, Electrolyze and Lightning Helix don't do anything versus Tarmogoyf, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Siege Rhino and all the other stuff there are playing.
Might as well point them all at their dome since that is still better than 2-for-1ing yourself on pretty much everything they are playing.
I would say that the smaller more aggro versions of abzan are clearly geared toward beating the bigger more mid range junk decks. They are packing playsets of hierarchs plus gavony township as well as the cards the poop on liliana.
WIth that being said, "little abzan" as called in this thread has almost zero game vs any of the better combo decks in the format. Very little removal, very little diruption. Splinter twin eats these kinds of decks fro breakfast. Id rather be playing the thoughseize/kill everything/play big dumb animals deck that abzan is....and its very good at that.
BUGShardless SultaiBUG
Modern
URSplinter TwinUR
BWGAbzan MidrangeBWG
Standard
URWJeskai TokensURW