UWR is nowhere near even with BGx, imo. It has very few ways to interact with their best cards (i.e. Liliana and Rhino) and is at a very real risk of being outgrinded.
Maybe Rhino changes the matchup? I always thought it was rather close before, and the way BGx usually won was to grind out LD and not let me get going. I guess Rhino can't efficiently be removed. I know watching Kentaro and Shuhei play that matchup at the PT, BGx won but it wasn't some sort of crazy stomp, it was somewhat close.
The thing about the red splash is that control really loves Electrolyze. In fact, if what you want to do is not lose to Affinity, Electrolyze is insane. It's often a 3-for-1 in that matchup.
Yes, eletrolyze is really strong although it does only two damage but it's always a 2 to 1. At the moment I don't like lightning helix because is often enough a dead card in hand when you want to have an answer. UW runs 4 seachrome coast that is the same thing
They don't play 4 Seachrome. A typically manabase for UW Control looks like:
Helix isn't any more dead than Bolt is when you need an answer. It may cost more but it does more or less the same job. It happens to be slightly better against some aggro decks like Burn because lifegain is really good.
Is there any reason I should not play Tribal decks in Modern? Because I'm a Legacy player and every time I've tried Modern I can't take it serious for it's bannings and expensive "Modern Only" cards. Every time I joined, they would ban a favourite card in my deck so I'd jump out of the format again. It's happened about 4-5 times. Anyway, I thought I should play tribal decks (Faeries, Elves, Merfolk, Goblins) as I love Synergy over Power (hence why my main Legacy deck is Elves) and there is a really low risk to the cards being banned, with most of the cards they use I already own from Legacy or are cheap to obtain. So is this a good idea to stay in Modern? Just play tribal?
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Modern: U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
Is there any reason I should not play Tribal decks in Modern? Because I'm a Legacy player and every time I've tried Modern I can't take it serious for it's bannings and expensive "Modern Only" cards. Every time I joined, they would ban a favourite card in my deck so I'd jump out of the format again. It's happened about 4-5 times. Anyway, I thought I should play tribal decks (Faeries, Elves, Merfolk, Goblins) as I love Synergy over Power (hence why my main Legacy deck is Elves) and there is a really low risk to the cards being banned, with most of the cards they use I already own from Legacy or are cheap to obtain. So is this a good idea to stay in Modern? Just play tribal?
Merfolk is a viable tribal deck in modern and it hasn't gotten any bannings yet so far and also the art on the cards are pretty nice too. =D
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Standard : What is Stand-tart
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
UTron, burn might be good but I think modern burn is more rdw, to many creature interactions to make it a burn deck(I run Sullivans 1.5 burn to much success).
My meta has burn, boggles, azban, infect, and the modern equiveliant of sneak and show
I tried mono-u tron and 4c Gifts, but it always felt like I was 2 seconds from losing the game...
Was thinking of UW control, but none of the lists seem that powerful...
I've got most of modern staples with exception of noble hierarch, goyf, bob, and 2x cryptic command...
What do you think is the right meta call?
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The very fact that Flamethrowers exist proves that someone somewhere said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire... But I'm just not close enough to do it"
My meta has burn, boggles, azban, infect, and the modern equiveliant of sneak and show
I tried mono-u tron and 4c Gifts, but it always felt like I was 2 seconds from losing the game...
Was thinking of UW control, but none of the lists seem that powerful...
I've got most of modern staples with exception of noble hierarch, goyf, bob, and 2x cryptic command...
What do you think is the right meta call?
Probably UR Twin. Have the combo to beat the fast decks (burn, infect, boggles) then except your game one loss to abzan and have a sideboard that turns your deck into a control deck with blood moon to stomp on abzan in post board games.
If by "Modern equivalent of Sneak and Show" you mean the Goryo's Vengeance/Through the Breach + Griselbrand/Emrakul deck, Twin beats it pretty easily too. If they go for the combo, you flash in Exarch/Pestermite and tap their creature so it can't attack. Then it dies at EOT.
UWR is nowhere near even with BGx, imo. It has very few ways to interact with their best cards (i.e. Liliana and Rhino) and is at a very real risk of being outgrinded.
Maybe Rhino changes the matchup? I always thought it was rather close before, and the way BGx usually won was to grind out LD and not let me get going. I guess Rhino can't efficiently be removed. I know watching Kentaro and Shuhei play that matchup at the PT, BGx won but it wasn't some sort of crazy stomp, it was somewhat close.
The thing about the red splash is that control really loves Electrolyze. In fact, if what you want to do is not lose to Affinity, Electrolyze is insane. It's often a 3-for-1 in that matchup.
Yes, eletrolyze is really strong although it does only two damage but it's always a 2 to 1. At the moment I don't like lightning helix because is often enough a dead card in hand when you want to have an answer. UW runs 4 seachrome coast that is the same thing
They don't play 4 Seachrome. A typically manabase for UW Control looks like:
Helix isn't any more dead than Bolt is when you need an answer. It may cost more but it does more or less the same job. It happens to be slightly better against some aggro decks like Burn because lifegain is really good.
Rhino pretty much made the matchup go in bgx favor. UWR already had a hard time with goyf the only saving grace being spell snare. Now UWR has path way stretched out on important targets that having one discarded hurts a lot. UWR also lacks real card advantage like esper charm from esper control. If UWR wants to win against abzan they cannot rely on damage based removal and they should run more draw spells but then the deck becomes weak to linear aggro decks.
Long time lurker here. I've already posted this in /r/ModernMagic and ended up with either Grixis Delver or Esper Control but I am looking to get more insight.
I am a life time Legacy player (1997-2014). Right when I quit, I sold my entire collection. I used to play RUG, UWR and BURG Delver, Dredge, Nic Fit and some ANT.
As everybody knows, old habits die hard. Am looking to get back into the game but at the moment our local Legacy community is dwindling in number. That being said, Modern seems like the better option at the moment. My question is, can anyone suggest a good meta learning deck that will have the following characteristics:
1. Preferably easy to pickup
2. Maybe hard to master
3. Less than $1000
Long time lurker here. I've already posted this in /r/ModernMagic and ended up with either Grixis Delver or Esper Control but I am looking to get more insight.
I am a life time Legacy player (1997-2014). Right when I quit, I sold my entire collection. I used to play RUG, UWR and BURG Delver, Dredge, Nic Fit and some ANT.
As everybody knows, old habits die hard. Am looking to get back into the game but at the moment our local Legacy community is dwindling in number. That being said, Modern seems like the better option at the moment. My question is, can anyone suggest a good meta learning deck that will have the following characteristics:
1. Preferably easy to pickup
2. Maybe hard to master
3. Less than $1000
Thoughts?
It's kind of hard to recommend stuff if you don't give us much to work with (colours, playstyle, that sort of thing helps). At any rate, I do agree with their assessment that you'd like Grixis Delver. You played a lot of Delver variants in Legacy, so I think you'll find yourself at home playing the same style of deck. It's also a deck that is easy to play at a low level but difficult to play at a good level because there's a lot of small things to know (which I'm sure you probably already know having played it for such a long time). It should be cheap enough for you to build.
The one caveat is that I don't know how good a deck Grixis Delver actually is. The deck is popular, but I don't know if it's going to remain a top tier deck, since it's only been seeing play for a few weeks now. If I didn't recommend Delver, I'd recommend UR Twin. It often plays out a lot like Delver as a tempo deck, except that it has an option to combo win.
The one caveat is that I don't know how good a deck Grixis Delver actually is. The deck is popular, but I don't know if it's going to remain a top tier deck, since it's only been seeing play for a few weeks now.
It's winrate is actually pretty good, and its popularity has only been going up. I think it'll be a thing for awhile.
I also recommend Grixis Delver. It plays the closest to the Legacy tempo/Delver decks. It builds into Twin nicely as well, in case you want a combo finish.
The one caveat is that I don't know how good a deck Grixis Delver actually is. The deck is popular, but I don't know if it's going to remain a top tier deck, since it's only been seeing play for a few weeks now.
It's winrate is actually pretty good, and its popularity has only been going up. I think it'll be a thing for awhile.
I also recommend Grixis Delver. It plays the closest to the Legacy tempo/Delver decks. It builds into Twin nicely as well, in case you want a combo finish.
As the data in Grixis Delver thread showed it has great matchup against Splinter Twin and does decent against the others. It gets wrecked by Abzan though and by Amulet Bloom but that isn't a Tier 1 deck.
I think Delver is lucky though that Abzan is the most expensive Modern deck so it wont be be out there in the numbers it could be if it was cheaper.
I've heard that the all Delve version (the one with Liliana, full 4 Anglers, etc) is actually not bad against Abzan, but the Delver version definitely leaves something to be desired.
I've heard that the all Delve version (the one with Liliana, full 4 Anglers, etc) is actually not bad against Abzan, but the Delver version definitely leaves something to be desired.
That's what I heard too. Many of the lists that put up results on MTGO where the deck is the most prevalent are still on the Young Pyromancer train and not all-in on Delve though.
So only time will tell I guess.
Maybe I will try out one of these Delve lists too tonight or tomorrow.
This is a list from somebody who went 4-0 in a Daily.
That zombie fish is the tits. I printed out the deck and just tested against Little Kid Junk (2-3) but overall it felt like a 50-50, Twin (wrecked Twin 3-1) and Esper Mentor (3-1 or 3-2 I think). Overall deck feels solid being all in on the Delve plan. Note that all these were G1's, I haven't printed the SB's as I like building one myself and today was my first run with it. Took out all Pyros and went with full 4 Delver and SCM, 3 Angler and 2 Tasigur.
That zombie fish is the tits. I printed out the deck and just tested against Little Kid Junk (2-3) but overall it felt like a 50-50, Twin (wrecked Twin 3-1) and Esper Mentor (3-1 or 3-2 I think). Overall deck feels solid being all in on the Delve plan. Note that all these were G1's, I haven't printed the SB's as I like building one myself and today was my first run with it. Took out all Pyros and went with full 4 Delver and SCM, 3 Angler and 2 Tasigur.
I assume those are all single games, at which point going 3-1 in 4 games isn't any sort of significant number because there's too small of a sample set. You're 75% at 3-1, but if you lose the next game, you're only 60%, and lose another goes to 50%. In order for these results to be significant you need either a larger sample set, a higher win ratio (and still probably over more games), or a very bad a priori win ratio (that is, the matchup is supposed to be really bad for you). I just wanted to point this out because you might pick the deck because it seems good in a set that can't adequately tell you if it's good or bad.
I guess short testing can give you an idea of the matchup, but the more you play a certain matchup, the more you learn all of the different dimensions of that matchup. For example, you may win if "so and so happens for you and for the opponent," but if something else happens, it could be different. This helps you also realize what are the "important" cards in the matchup.
(This probably didn't make sense to anybody, but it made sense to me. )
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I guess short testing can give you an idea of the matchup, but the more you play a certain matchup, the more you learn all of the different dimensions of that matchup. For example, you may win if "so and so happens for you and for the opponent," but if something else happens, it could be different. This helps you also realize what are the "important" cards in the matchup.
(This probably didn't make sense to anybody, but it made sense to me. )
That's how matchups tend to go. There are good and bad cards against them, or rather some set of cards that are better than another set of cards against an opponent, and they similarly have a set better against you than other cards. When players draw the better cards, they're going to have a higher probability of winning.
Generally speaking, players unfamiliar with matchups should play a few games in order to find out how they are supposed to play the matchup. It's very easy to play it wrongly and have a false win percentage as a result.
And again, as you pointed out, there are often "important" cards. Sometimes cards can be so significant such that a small sample set can be vastly different from what the actual results should be because of them. A good example is UW Tron vs Infect. UW Tron should theoretically have a bad Infect matchup, but the sample I have of about 10 games shows me being favourable. Why? Because if Elesh Norn resolves, I instantly win the game (they have 0 outs and just scoop). So if I have a set that is dominated by drawing Gifts and reanimating Elesh Norn more than the statistical average, it can sway these results. Over the small set, it makes a huge difference.
That's a good example because I would also assume that Infect crushes UW Tron. Personally, I believe that many people have misconceptions about Bogles being an inconsistent deck. I have played it (mostly with other decks occasionally) for 9 months and I haven't found it any more inconsistent than the average deck. Obviously I know it can't compare with a Serum Visions deck. I always cringe when I see people who have never played the deck make assumptions, but in all honesty, I do the same with UW Tron, a deck that I have no play experience playing it (despite playing against it many, many times).
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
That's a good example because I would also assume that Infect crushes UW Tron. Personally, I believe that many people have misconceptions about Bogles being an inconsistent deck. I have played it (mostly with other decks occasionally) for 9 months and I haven't found it any more inconsistent than the average deck. Obviously I know it can't compare with a Serum Visions deck. I always cringe when I see people who have never played the deck make assumptions, but in all honesty, I do the same with UW Tron, a deck that I have no play experience playing it (despite playing against it many, many times).
Yeah, people make a lot of assumptions about UW Tron. Some people assume it's a Tron deck and complain they're going to lose to Blood Moon or Tec Edge or whatever Tron hate - I win a majority of my games to Gifts Combo. Other people assume it's a Gifts deck and that I lose if they play grave hate. It's not, I checked recently where around half of my game 1 wins were to Emrakul.
On another note about Infect, it's an inconsistent deck. It can lose games to itself, which also contribute to my favourable testing.
Looking for a modern deck that's as competitive as possible for around $200. I'll be lending this deck to a friend, and I want it to be a good deck. I also want the deck to have as many staples as possible, preferably snapcaster mage. And last, I'd prefer, but not require it to not be burn. Thanks in advance guys, you always help me out so please help me out one more time!
Cheap and Tier 1 or at least 1.5 (tier one decks that aren't quite optimized) you got 2 choices.
Burn (R/W, R/B, R/B/W)
or
Mono Green Infect. You can build a pretty damn mono good mono green infect for around 70$ with the infect lands. Or you can build a budget mono green infect with just pump spells, glistener elf, ichorclaw myr , and blight mamba for around 30$.
That came in around 100$ on deck box, but you may be able to find bulk commons at your LGS. Get the rest on line. You can build it cheaper with less powerful pump spells. But these offer the quickest kill conditions.
Otherwise burn can be built for ~200$. Souls sisters I built last year for 174$.
They don't play 4 Seachrome. A typically manabase for UW Control looks like:
4 Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
3 Hallowed Fountain
3 Tectonic Edge
2 Calciform Pool
6 Islands
2 Plains
1 Flex (Seachrome, Fortress, or filter land)
Helix isn't any more dead than Bolt is when you need an answer. It may cost more but it does more or less the same job. It happens to be slightly better against some aggro decks like Burn because lifegain is really good.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
EDH:
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Fighting for Rivendell
WU Brago, King Eternal, Long Live the King
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Worship the Dragon
Merfolk is a viable tribal deck in modern and it hasn't gotten any bannings yet so far and also the art on the cards are pretty nice too. =D
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
UTron, burn might be good but I think modern burn is more rdw, to many creature interactions to make it a burn deck(I run Sullivans 1.5 burn to much success).
I tried mono-u tron and 4c Gifts, but it always felt like I was 2 seconds from losing the game...
Was thinking of UW control, but none of the lists seem that powerful...
I've got most of modern staples with exception of noble hierarch, goyf, bob, and 2x cryptic command...
What do you think is the right meta call?
Probably UR Twin. Have the combo to beat the fast decks (burn, infect, boggles) then except your game one loss to abzan and have a sideboard that turns your deck into a control deck with blood moon to stomp on abzan in post board games.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Rhino pretty much made the matchup go in bgx favor. UWR already had a hard time with goyf the only saving grace being spell snare. Now UWR has path way stretched out on important targets that having one discarded hurts a lot. UWR also lacks real card advantage like esper charm from esper control. If UWR wants to win against abzan they cannot rely on damage based removal and they should run more draw spells but then the deck becomes weak to linear aggro decks.
Long time lurker here. I've already posted this in /r/ModernMagic and ended up with either Grixis Delver or Esper Control but I am looking to get more insight.
I am a life time Legacy player (1997-2014). Right when I quit, I sold my entire collection. I used to play RUG, UWR and BURG Delver, Dredge, Nic Fit and some ANT.
As everybody knows, old habits die hard. Am looking to get back into the game but at the moment our local Legacy community is dwindling in number. That being said, Modern seems like the better option at the moment. My question is, can anyone suggest a good meta learning deck that will have the following characteristics:
1. Preferably easy to pickup
2. Maybe hard to master
3. Less than $1000
Thoughts?
The one caveat is that I don't know how good a deck Grixis Delver actually is. The deck is popular, but I don't know if it's going to remain a top tier deck, since it's only been seeing play for a few weeks now. If I didn't recommend Delver, I'd recommend UR Twin. It often plays out a lot like Delver as a tempo deck, except that it has an option to combo win.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
It's winrate is actually pretty good, and its popularity has only been going up. I think it'll be a thing for awhile.
I also recommend Grixis Delver. It plays the closest to the Legacy tempo/Delver decks. It builds into Twin nicely as well, in case you want a combo finish.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
As the data in Grixis Delver thread showed it has great matchup against Splinter Twin and does decent against the others. It gets wrecked by Abzan though and by Amulet Bloom but that isn't a Tier 1 deck.
I think Delver is lucky though that Abzan is the most expensive Modern deck so it wont be be out there in the numbers it could be if it was cheaper.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
That's what I heard too. Many of the lists that put up results on MTGO where the deck is the most prevalent are still on the Young Pyromancer train and not all-in on Delve though.
So only time will tell I guess.
Maybe I will try out one of these Delve lists too tonight or tomorrow.
This is a list from somebody who went 4-0 in a Daily.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Gurmag Angler
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Vendilion Clique
Spells (28)
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Burst Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
1 Stubborn Denial
4 Terminate
4 Thought Scour
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Darkslick Shores
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Stubborn Denial
4 Blightning
3 Molten Rain
4 Rakdos Charm
That is a sweet looking list. Packed to the brim with cards that I like playing with.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
(This probably didn't make sense to anybody, but it made sense to me. )
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Generally speaking, players unfamiliar with matchups should play a few games in order to find out how they are supposed to play the matchup. It's very easy to play it wrongly and have a false win percentage as a result.
And again, as you pointed out, there are often "important" cards. Sometimes cards can be so significant such that a small sample set can be vastly different from what the actual results should be because of them. A good example is UW Tron vs Infect. UW Tron should theoretically have a bad Infect matchup, but the sample I have of about 10 games shows me being favourable. Why? Because if Elesh Norn resolves, I instantly win the game (they have 0 outs and just scoop). So if I have a set that is dominated by drawing Gifts and reanimating Elesh Norn more than the statistical average, it can sway these results. Over the small set, it makes a huge difference.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)On another note about Infect, it's an inconsistent deck. It can lose games to itself, which also contribute to my favourable testing.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Burn (R/W, R/B, R/B/W)
or
Mono Green Infect. You can build a pretty damn mono good mono green infect for around 70$ with the infect lands. Or you can build a budget mono green infect with just pump spells, glistener elf, ichorclaw myr , and blight mamba for around 30$.
4 Glistener Elf
4 Blight Mamba
4 Ichorclaw Myr
2 Rot Wolf
4 Apostle's Blessing
4 Giant Growth
4 Groundswell
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Predator's Strike
4 Vines of Vastwood
14 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
That came in around 100$ on deck box, but you may be able to find bulk commons at your LGS. Get the rest on line. You can build it cheaper with less powerful pump spells. But these offer the quickest kill conditions.
Otherwise burn can be built for ~200$. Souls sisters I built last year for 174$.
BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect
A playset of NM Snapcaster Mages clocks in at ~$212. It's probably not going to happen.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer