I had 4x goblin guide, eidolon, 2 fetches against legacy ANT last time I played burn--and I died before I got to cast the first one. There's unfortunately only a couple decks in the modern format that can do that to burn, but there are decks that can beat the nuts.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I've faced the quadruple Goblin Guide hand once. I was on UWR Midrange on a mulligan to 5 on the draw (game 3) keeping a hand of fetch, Bolt, Snap, Snap, Geist hoping I could use Guide against my opponent. I won, Guides constantly flipped lands, drew me out of the mulligans (I got something like 6 or 7 cards over the game with them), and combined with a defensive Geist of Saint Traft and some good old Bolt/Snap/Bolt action plus Timely Reinforcements I took the game.
This game was one of the few times I've seen an opponent get legitimately pissed off in a game of Magic.
Nice. Must have felt good.
The problem that I have with Goblin Guide is that the card is too good against me. It basically is a 2/2 haste creature for R that shows my opponent what's in my hand time after time. For me, it hardly ever reveals lands. Part of this is because I play Combo decks with light land counts usually, but part is just poor variance. Also I haven't used Serum Visions for probably close to half a year. A card like that with no drawbacks (if you never reveal a land) is broken.
You guys know me as a Burn hater. That and the printing of Eidolon of the Great Revel (with 8 Skullcrack) hasn't helped me like it any more; it being a deck that I've hated ever since Ice Age times when I used to play 10 player free-for-alls at my college and multiple opponents would send Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Incinerate all my way, not to mention the Ball Lightnings. I don't think I ever made it to turn 3 unless I cast multiple Time Walk when it was on me.
Although Warmth seems a bit too good, I don't see a problem with Chill, although we have seen Wizard's reluctance to reprint such hate cards.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
It's an example of why you should always play it out. Even if you're .01% to win that's still 1 in 1000 which if you play 25 games a week, is going to come up more than once a year.
Chill is a bit too good in my opinion, it really requires a card like Red Elemental Blast in it's counter mode to fight against and I think we all know that's not going to reappear in Standard/Modern. Red hate these days is more along the lines of Destructive Revelry so any answer needs to be a bit more fair when it initially comes down.
They seem to be moving away from cards that hose individual colors and move into cards that are more/less powerful in a matchup.
I think they made a good attempt at a Modern Chill with Monastery Siege. Not only is it the same ballpark in function but it's modal so it helps to address the sideboard slot issue of having narrow cards, and can potentially even find it's way MB (if you can answer the problem of dying on 4 because you tapped out on 3).
I've experimented with Siege a lot in Modern using Grixis Control and I really like it, but it's still a bit underpowered, I'm possibly not building the rest of my deck right with it, or it could just be too weak. Blue, filters draws, enables Snapcaster, enables Delve, protects me/creatures, tough to remove, there's a lot to like there.
Although Warmth seems a bit too good, I don't see a problem with Chill, although we have seen Wizard's reluctance to reprint such hate cards.
I'd actually be very much in favor of Chill entering Modern not because of Burn, but to balance out Boil. The Boil "equivalent" for Blue is... wait for it... Wrath of Marit Lage. Yeah. Kind of a big disparity in power there. Even ignoring the high mana cost, Wrath of Marit Lage isn't even relevant against a lot of Red decks. I think Blue getting Chill would help to fix this discrepancy.
Unfortunately, as you noted, they don't seem to like printing powerful color hosers anymore, so you get situational stuff like Rending Volley instead. Though I guess Surge of Righteousness (the White card in that cycle) is okay against Burn...
So don't give Blue Chill and keep losing I suppose. I don't understand these arguments. People want to beat burn, and blue and white have been the go to colors for it, but Chill is too powerful? Really? But you want Monastery Siege to help at 3 mana lol. Blue can't have the tools it needs to actually Police anything aka Counterbalance+Sdtop etc because its deemed to powerful or "time consuming". I suppose, then why cry about losing to Burn? More anti life gain cards have brought Burn to the top. I mean what now? A hexproof ivory mask 2 drop? Blue, the traditional enemy of Red cannot have Chill, nor counterspell, nor Counter Top, so Burn will continue to kill a lot of decks and innovation. Ok, so now what? Print stronger hate versus Burn? But this allegedly violated WOTC apparent dislike for strong color hosers. At some point isn't just becoming stupid? I mean, honestly.
Surge sucks and it's no secret. The problem with Burn is that the deck runs 4-8 maindeck counter-hate cards in the form of Skullcrack effects. We need a Burn hoser that isn't shut down by these cards.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
It's called Chill and efficient broad countermagic (counterspell) or CounterTop. Now let the blue tears begin and all the bologna as to why it's too powerful or "not new Blue" traditional rhetoric. This should be good.........
Surge sucks and it's no secret. The problem with Burn is that the deck runs 4-8 maindeck counter-hate cards in the form of Skullcrack effects. We need a Burn hoser that isn't shut down by these cards.
The conversation on this thread is silly. A single tournament happens and everyone thinks the format is warped forever and going to hell. Come on guys, the meta always balances itself out.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
I think it's fine. I just hate Burn. But the main problem with Kor Firewalker is the double White and that you have to have that available on turn 2, which means damage from your lands. Honestly there were at least a few games I watched the 2nd place finisher going first where a turn 2 Kor Firewalker wouldn't have won for the opponent.
(But yes, I do realize that it is a single tournament. I even made a reply to someone that within 1-2 tournaments, Burn will be hated out again. Pendulums...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
As to Counterspell, it's just a matter of time before it's in Modern. They've already said that it's in the same category as Lightning Bolt. Something they're willing to put into Standard in the right environment but even Counterspell isn't all that good against Burn. You spend 2 mana to stop their Bolt, and then they just cast another. The best answer to burn is to play red yourself.
Would counterspell really be all that better against burn than Pierce or Dispel (which is main board and sideboard material already if we are honest here).
Would counterspell really be all that better against burn than Pierce or Dispel (which is main board and sideboard material already if we are honest here).
I mean this is really nothing new. Red decks heavy on burn have been beating blue decks since forever, unless they are combo decks. The problem is the midrange in this tourney was weak sauce. Also zoo is not exactly burn and you want to tackle it in a different way than other aggro decks. Mainly cards like grim lavamancer being a blank is a big deal. Also Lilly is weak sauce against a board full of dudes. The standard removal package is all wrong if you want to fight zoo. It is interesting to note that G/B/w made top 8 which is much better positioned to fight zoo then G/B/r. The main deck is about as good as you can reasonably expect, the problem is the celestial purge which is too techy of a card, just run the 4th path. Also I expect more damnation to be in sideboards. If you don't have a board sweeper dude decks run over you.
Maybe Modern is the format that exemplifies WotC's desire for the game the most, what you draw in your opener is the most important thing, lots of randomness, lots of creatures. People love playing the lottery, look at how Expeditions have sold.
Why do people always overreact to these tournaments?
Last time it was people saying to ban Lantern, this time people are out for Burn and Zoo. Its not like these two decks are overly new or as if they suddenly are doing something completely busted. People have beat Burn and Zoo for years and Burn hasn't even won all that much even with Atarka's Command and Eidolon. Why not let the format react to these decks being brought out and let it adjust accordingly, it did with the 'big bad boogieman' Amulet Bloom, which people were gunning for, for so long. If in 1 month the format is still completely filled in top 8's with Burn and Zoo then we can talk about it again.
Why do people always overreact to these tournaments?
Last time it was people saying to ban Lantern, this time people are out for Burn and Zoo. Its not like these two decks are overly new or as if they suddenly are doing something completely busted. People have beat Burn and Zoo for years and Burn hasn't even won all that much even with Atarka's Command and Eidolon. Why not let the format react to these decks being brought out and let it adjust accordingly, it did with the 'big bad boogieman' Amulet Bloom, which people were gunning for, for so long. If in 1 month the format is still completely filled in top 8's with Burn and Zoo then we can talk about it again.
The problem is all the decks you mentioned, the constant stream of linear decks that don't really want to interact. At this point in time it's really hard to see how that gets broken up or changes, especially going into a Pro Tour.
Do you happen to have a source on WotC's thoughts about Counterspell?
MaRo has said it on his blog a couple of times. He used to just say it flat out, but now it carries his usual not a developer disclaimer. Read into that however you want.
It's called Chill and efficient broad countermagic (counterspell) or CounterTop. Now let the blue tears begin and all the bologna as to why it's too powerful or "not new Blue" traditional rhetoric. This should be good.........
Counterspell wouldn't have done anything in this tourny anyway, as the decks were just too fast.
I'm not exactly sure Chill would have the desired effect anyway; all of the really good, Modern friendly Sweepers are red. And I'm not sure I WOULDN'T say no to having a Zoo deck postpone Anger of the Gods to T5 by sacrificing a T2.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
For the most part I think ur twin would have been a good deck for this weekend. It flat out wins against the over the top decks (tron/bloom). Twin is just one good sideboard card away from having an even to positive matchup against burn but right now it is slightly unfavored. I think a metagamed twin build with 3 dispels main and nore spell snares and less remands would get there against aggro but I would have to test that and see. The thing is that the interactive decks need to close out the game reasonable fast since burn has inevitability. Hoyf decks just need to plsy their feed the clan and play really tight.
I was there this weekend. I brought a meta-deck expecting grindy midrange decks like Jund and Abzan, and maybe a lot of Tron. End up playing most of my matches against Infect, Burn, and Twin, so went 5-4 and did not make day 2. C'est la vie.
However, I think the fact that it was reasonable to expect something other than this aggro slugfest, based on GP OKC, is at least evidence that the meta is not stagnant and aggro does not need to be banned. My friend came to the event with burn and did make day 2, and was beaten down by several matches in a row against Abzan Company players. The proper response to an outcome like this is for people to play decks with a good burn/aggro matchup (Abzan Company, Soul Sisters, Death & Taxes), not to call for bans or unbans.
when will the modern open that just happened on the 31st be out to watch. also if it didnt top 32, were can i see deck lists or can I. really wanna see that Tooth/nail deck
when will the modern open that just happened on the 31st be out to watch. also if it didnt top 32, were can i see deck lists or can I. really wanna see that Tooth/nail deck
If it didn't top 32 or have a deck-tech there probably won't be a full list from any website. You'll have to reverse-engineer as much of it as you can by watching the coverage. Or you can scour the tooth and nail thread here to see if others know, or maybe even if the pilot posts here.
To watch matches and events that have already happened I like mtgcoverage.com but it usually takes a couple days for the videos to get posted.
Counterspell may not have made all the difference against Burn, I don't doubt that. CounterTop would definitely have hammered Burn.
It's not that no deck can beat Burn, it's that one must play a deck that has to be able to beat Burn AND the other top tier decks as well, and that is a difficult task. This wouldn't be as difficult if color hosers were strong across the board AND Policing blue cards were generic enough to include maindeck AND not be dead in other matches. Sure, you can jam dispels, spell pierces etc but then those are dead in other matches, wheras a generic Counterspell would suffice and be applicable in all matches. Instead why don't we just allow Blue to have Counterspell and actually police efficiently. Now, I know I am a virtual nobody, so my name carries no weight. But I am just looking at things logically. Counterspell or even CounterTop, I don't think will break Modern, but the fear it will and the urban myth that Modern Blue is tempo not control is killing the color Blue's ability to fulfill it's true power but I digress.
CounterTop just seems like a poor idea in Modern. It's great in Legacy because the power level of 1 and 2 drops is through the roof so CounterTop can play lots of 1 and 2 drops and most Top activations will net you a card that can counter what the opponent is playing. In Modern there is a much larger range of viable CMCs. Even just having 1, 2, 3, 4 to worry about is likely too much for CounterTop to be viable.
CounterTop just seems like a poor idea in Modern. It's great in Legacy because the power level of 1 and 2 drops is through the roof so CounterTop can play lots of 1 and 2 drops and most Top activations will net you a card that can counter what the opponent is playing. In Modern there is a much larger range of viable CMCs. Even just having 1, 2, 3, 4 to worry about is likely too much for CounterTop to be viable.
Yeah that is just not true, counter balance top was a fantastic extended deck. You have other counterspells like mana leak to catch cards you can't counter.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Nice. Must have felt good.
The problem that I have with Goblin Guide is that the card is too good against me. It basically is a 2/2 haste creature for R that shows my opponent what's in my hand time after time. For me, it hardly ever reveals lands. Part of this is because I play Combo decks with light land counts usually, but part is just poor variance. Also I haven't used Serum Visions for probably close to half a year. A card like that with no drawbacks (if you never reveal a land) is broken.
You guys know me as a Burn hater. That and the printing of Eidolon of the Great Revel (with 8 Skullcrack) hasn't helped me like it any more; it being a deck that I've hated ever since Ice Age times when I used to play 10 player free-for-alls at my college and multiple opponents would send Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Incinerate all my way, not to mention the Ball Lightnings. I don't think I ever made it to turn 3 unless I cast multiple Time Walk when it was on me.
Although Warmth seems a bit too good, I don't see a problem with Chill, although we have seen Wizard's reluctance to reprint such hate cards.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)It's an example of why you should always play it out. Even if you're .01% to win that's still 1 in 1000 which if you play 25 games a week, is going to come up more than once a year.
Chill is a bit too good in my opinion, it really requires a card like Red Elemental Blast in it's counter mode to fight against and I think we all know that's not going to reappear in Standard/Modern. Red hate these days is more along the lines of Destructive Revelry so any answer needs to be a bit more fair when it initially comes down.
They seem to be moving away from cards that hose individual colors and move into cards that are more/less powerful in a matchup.
I think they made a good attempt at a Modern Chill with Monastery Siege. Not only is it the same ballpark in function but it's modal so it helps to address the sideboard slot issue of having narrow cards, and can potentially even find it's way MB (if you can answer the problem of dying on 4 because you tapped out on 3).
I've experimented with Siege a lot in Modern using Grixis Control and I really like it, but it's still a bit underpowered, I'm possibly not building the rest of my deck right with it, or it could just be too weak. Blue, filters draws, enables Snapcaster, enables Delve, protects me/creatures, tough to remove, there's a lot to like there.
Unfortunately, as you noted, they don't seem to like printing powerful color hosers anymore, so you get situational stuff like Rending Volley instead. Though I guess Surge of Righteousness (the White card in that cycle) is okay against Burn...
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Is there an issue with Kor Firewalker?
The conversation on this thread is silly. A single tournament happens and everyone thinks the format is warped forever and going to hell. Come on guys, the meta always balances itself out.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
(But yes, I do realize that it is a single tournament. I even made a reply to someone that within 1-2 tournaments, Burn will be hated out again. Pendulums...
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)As to Counterspell, it's just a matter of time before it's in Modern. They've already said that it's in the same category as Lightning Bolt. Something they're willing to put into Standard in the right environment but even Counterspell isn't all that good against Burn. You spend 2 mana to stop their Bolt, and then they just cast another. The best answer to burn is to play red yourself.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Spirits
I mean this is really nothing new. Red decks heavy on burn have been beating blue decks since forever, unless they are combo decks. The problem is the midrange in this tourney was weak sauce. Also zoo is not exactly burn and you want to tackle it in a different way than other aggro decks. Mainly cards like grim lavamancer being a blank is a big deal. Also Lilly is weak sauce against a board full of dudes. The standard removal package is all wrong if you want to fight zoo. It is interesting to note that G/B/w made top 8 which is much better positioned to fight zoo then G/B/r. The main deck is about as good as you can reasonably expect, the problem is the celestial purge which is too techy of a card, just run the 4th path. Also I expect more damnation to be in sideboards. If you don't have a board sweeper dude decks run over you.
Last time it was people saying to ban Lantern, this time people are out for Burn and Zoo. Its not like these two decks are overly new or as if they suddenly are doing something completely busted. People have beat Burn and Zoo for years and Burn hasn't even won all that much even with Atarka's Command and Eidolon. Why not let the format react to these decks being brought out and let it adjust accordingly, it did with the 'big bad boogieman' Amulet Bloom, which people were gunning for, for so long. If in 1 month the format is still completely filled in top 8's with Burn and Zoo then we can talk about it again.
The problem is all the decks you mentioned, the constant stream of linear decks that don't really want to interact. At this point in time it's really hard to see how that gets broken up or changes, especially going into a Pro Tour.
MaRo has said it on his blog a couple of times. He used to just say it flat out, but now it carries his usual not a developer disclaimer. Read into that however you want.
Wow, talk about no Chill.....
Counterspell wouldn't have done anything in this tourny anyway, as the decks were just too fast.
I'm not exactly sure Chill would have the desired effect anyway; all of the really good, Modern friendly Sweepers are red. And I'm not sure I WOULDN'T say no to having a Zoo deck postpone Anger of the Gods to T5 by sacrificing a T2.
However, I think the fact that it was reasonable to expect something other than this aggro slugfest, based on GP OKC, is at least evidence that the meta is not stagnant and aggro does not need to be banned. My friend came to the event with burn and did make day 2, and was beaten down by several matches in a row against Abzan Company players. The proper response to an outcome like this is for people to play decks with a good burn/aggro matchup (Abzan Company, Soul Sisters, Death & Taxes), not to call for bans or unbans.
Modern - UG Mana Denial GU
. . . . . . .
WBG Melira Pod GBWCommander - BR Olivia Voldaren RB Vampire Tribal
. . . . . . . . . WUB Sharuum the Hegemon BUW Not-Broken Artifact Midrange
. . . . . . . . . WUG Rafiq of the Many GUW Voltron
. . . . . . . . . . .UB Oona, Queen of the Fae BU No-combo Tempo-Mill
. . . . . . . . . WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic BUW Pillow Fort
To watch matches and events that have already happened I like mtgcoverage.com but it usually takes a couple days for the videos to get posted.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
It's not that no deck can beat Burn, it's that one must play a deck that has to be able to beat Burn AND the other top tier decks as well, and that is a difficult task. This wouldn't be as difficult if color hosers were strong across the board AND Policing blue cards were generic enough to include maindeck AND not be dead in other matches. Sure, you can jam dispels, spell pierces etc but then those are dead in other matches, wheras a generic Counterspell would suffice and be applicable in all matches. Instead why don't we just allow Blue to have Counterspell and actually police efficiently. Now, I know I am a virtual nobody, so my name carries no weight. But I am just looking at things logically. Counterspell or even CounterTop, I don't think will break Modern, but the fear it will and the urban myth that Modern Blue is tempo not control is killing the color Blue's ability to fulfill it's true power but I digress.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Yeah that is just not true, counter balance top was a fantastic extended deck. You have other counterspells like mana leak to catch cards you can't counter.