Trying to treat this deck like it's Tron is a good way to find out how it feels to sign a 0-2 match slip. It has elements of Jund-y midrange decks, elements of big mana decks, and stuff you've probably never seen before.
Usually, they are very scarce on boardwipes, while Tron runs a minimum of 7 (O-stone/Pyroclasm). Instead, they want to play a strategy with lots of Thoughtseize effects (5 maindeck for BW). BW doesn't run much in the way of 2-drops, so you'll be looking dumb if you don't sideboard out Spell Snare. Unlike Tron, they are not complete pushovers against fast aggro. They can slow you down with Path and use Wasteland Strangler to make space.
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These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Very well put sir. I too am like you, I love this time currently in Magic getting to watch this break through deck develop overnight and all the buzz it's causing. People are jumping on the bandwagon or crying "ban list!" and its funny to see all the card price spikes. One part of me loves that some dollar rares (aside from oblivion sower) all started this. At first it looked like a draft deck but it means business. After all the talk that BFZ was garbage this deck emerged, so that's cool. Yet another part of me is worried to see how over time this deck can be exploited even further. The processor version is very graveyard oppressive which is very "format warping" for many modern decks. Either way we will see. I play burn so it doesn't matter much to me other than not having lavamancer targets.
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Standard // nRG Aggro
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
Stoney Silence could be good, Affinity is popular, too, so that's a 2 for 1
I get the feeling BWx Eldrazi will be the deck of choice. Lingering souls works against aggro and Affinity, discard helps against combo and aggro
It's looking solid, and I very much would keep my eye on the BW version
Silance destroys all the processor type decks. I tend to think thats the first itteration of the deck, and as the hive mind turns its gears it will tune out that route for a more streamlined route.
The only good thing about this deck is that it should (at least in theory) keep Griselhoard and the likes in check...
Other than that it is extremely powerful across the field, against the so-called "fair decks" - aka snapcaster blue, and gbx combination.
Main problem with the deck is similar to that of playing against Amulet Bloom - attacking mana base is the suggested route, but this deck doesn't really need colored mana, and can operate with fair lands. Thus attacking lands is only postponing the unavoidable - the Eldrazi's will eventually come into play, meaning that this angle of attack is only available to some fringe goyf/zoo tempo decks at best. My playtesting group tried lots of thing and there isn't a card that "hates" Eldrazi deck one can put into his sideboard and be done with it. Basically you either play a deck that has a chance to beat them by being faster (combo decks, affinity, burn, infect) or just fold to them.
Will be interesting to see what will happen with the addition of new cards for the deck in OGW.
ps. we tried to play some kind of UWx control against the deck, and basically the cards that you fold to is Eye of Ugin. You can't keep up with it and is the heart and soul of the Eldrazi deck offering both acceleration and tutoring mid/lategame.
There is always a sideboard card. Every deck in modern will have a sideboard card to silver bullet it. Thats how metas work. The reason there isnt one right now is because until oath comes out, the deck will have many different forms. But I guarantee you, the deck will streamline, and all the other variations will give way to one core.
When that core exists, then people will find the correct sideboard. The millions of different kinds thing wont last forever, since eventually the advantage of "avoiding dedicated side hate" will be less than "Having a stream lined deck that is consistent."
That also depends, each of the different iterations have different game plans and functionality and equally whenever we get the third Eldrazi set/block also gives an additional move towards what Emrakul's lineage means for the deck. If you look at the Sliver decks, the game plan is more open ended and there are different constructs because of the diverse nature that slivers has and that there are fewer people refining the list than others.
Eldrazi is different that is has a flavor of the month appeal combined with some strong hate against graveyard decks. However, the issue is linking up specific cards. There could just as well be two or three different decks using a slightly altered core but different contingent spells.
The Eldrazi are fairly varied between the three boards, which culminates into a different aspects that makes it more hydra possibilities as compared to certain decks with a longer history and a more varied approach to metas. The closest, nearest approximation is Slivers followed by Humans as a tribe. Everything else is linear or mono color to consider tribal comparisons or are not a part of the decks.
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Life is a beautiful engineer, yet a brutal scientist.
Honestly, a lot of people complaining about these decks are the committed midrange players who are afraid to play without their security blanket of 8+ maindeck removal spells and goodstuff creatures. I like to play this type of deck too, but there are just some decks that prey on it, like Eldrazi. Many journeyman midrange/control players are scared to go aggro or combo because you just get blown out on occasion and have no means of recovery.
However, there are meta calls where it is highly in your advantage to play something other than midrange. To grow as a player, sometimes you have to pick up the robots or bolts and start throwing them at people.
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These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
I dont think people can claim that. There isnt enough data, nor any big wins.
Look, Ive been playing the deck because I want to give it a fair shot. Its a very very real deck. But while it KILLS midrange/late game decks, it completely folds to fast combo (that can slip past 1/2 discard spells) and early game decks in general. Even Naya company can beat it pretty easily and thats the slowest aggro deck around.
Why people are freaking out is simple. Its a new deck that wins against tier 1 decks. Its healthy because it actually makes tier 2 decks that were held down by jund and twins rein viable.
Does anyone think the printing of Stormchaser Mage will make Delver a viable deck again? Would Delver even have a good match up with these Eldrazi decks?
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"We have always counted time with sand; this pinch is your meaningless life."
I dont think people can claim that. There isnt enough data, nor any big wins.
Look, Ive been playing the deck because I want to give it a fair shot. Its a very very real deck. But while it KILLS midrange/late game decks, it completely folds to fast combo (that can slip past 1/2 discard spells) and early game decks in general. Even Naya company can beat it pretty easily and thats the slowest aggro deck around.
Why people are freaking out is simple. Its a new deck that wins against tier 1 decks. Its healthy because it actually makes tier 2 decks that were held down by jund and twins rein viable.
The post you're replying to (I think) is about what will happen when Oath of the Gatewatch hits, which has the potential to totally shake up the lists. TBH I suspect the current Eldrazi Processors lists won't emerge as the dominant pile within the archetype.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
I dont think people can claim that. There isnt enough data, nor any big wins.
Look, Ive been playing the deck because I want to give it a fair shot. Its a very very real deck. But while it KILLS midrange/late game decks, it completely folds to fast combo (that can slip past 1/2 discard spells) and early game decks in general. Even Naya company can beat it pretty easily and thats the slowest aggro deck around.
Why people are freaking out is simple. Its a new deck that wins against tier 1 decks. Its healthy because it actually makes tier 2 decks that were held down by jund and twins rein viable.
The post you're replying to (I think) is about what will happen when Oath of the Gatewatch hits, which has the potential to totally shake up the lists. TBH I suspect the current Eldrazi Processors lists won't emerge as the dominant pile within the archetype.
I'm actually thinking the same, though I honestly don't know how it will shake out. It will probably still use aggro/discard/graveyard hate but some of the processing mechanics seem clunky. Maybe the winner will be Heartless? Personally I'm more partial to B/R right now because it is the best against aggro while being pretty good against the rest of the field.
Does anyone think the printing of Stormchaser Mage will make Delver a viable deck again? Would Delver even have a good match up with these Eldrazi decks?
Delver right now as it is beats Eldrazi. Anything aggressive is pretty good against them. Hell, twin beating down is pretty good at killing them. Twin playing slow isnt, but in my testing any twin player in the know has been bolting turn 1, casting snapcaster on turn 2, casting pester on turn 3 to slow mana, and just beating to death.
I dont think people can claim that. There isnt enough data, nor any big wins.
Look, Ive been playing the deck because I want to give it a fair shot. Its a very very real deck. But while it KILLS midrange/late game decks, it completely folds to fast combo (that can slip past 1/2 discard spells) and early game decks in general. Even Naya company can beat it pretty easily and thats the slowest aggro deck around.
Why people are freaking out is simple. Its a new deck that wins against tier 1 decks. Its healthy because it actually makes tier 2 decks that were held down by jund and twins rein viable.
The post you're replying to (I think) is about what will happen when Oath of the Gatewatch hits, which has the potential to totally shake up the lists. TBH I suspect the current Eldrazi Processors lists won't emerge as the dominant pile within the archetype.
I wasnt actually. The deck really (at least in my opinion and testing) 1.5 new cards to use. Thought knot is the real deal, and helps medicate that fast combo matchup, but nothing helps the aggro matchup. Reality Smasher (probably doesnt make the cut) closes out the game against reactive decks faster. Something they can use, but they already are good against late game decks. Warping Wail helps against aggro, but really only stops affinity... once. Affinity doesnt lose to spot removal, it shows that time and time again. New Kozi basically insures game wins late game... which again, doesnt help against the current bad matchups. Return of Kozi actually kills off affinity, but red also opens it up to a world of pain, making any aggression more likely to kill it (so even twin/jund beats now have a shot) Endbringer likely doesnt actually do anything, since it gets cast turnnnn 3 earliest? and thats with everything going right. Drawing isnt all that good because conduit tutors, tapping isnt good because youre being swarmed, 1 damage is pretty bad.
And if you're playing cheaper cmc eldrazi youre playing bad merfolk.
I cant say for sure if heartless or processor is going to be top dog next round, but it still doesnt solve the aggro/combo matchup nearly as much as people seem to think. Its a rock deck, and beats midgame and late game decks, but loses to early game decks. Which is GOOD for the meta, because the early game decks lose to midgame decks.
Still, it's not like the aggro matchups are unwinnable. By far the worst are Elves and Affinity but in my testing Merfolk is almost favorable now with Seer as their only really impactful cards against us are Vial and Seas. Really if you can keep them off Seas and T1 vial via discard it is a blowout as they can't do anything to remove the big creatures and most of the time they will be bigger than the fish attacking. Burn is still unfavorable but not to the level Tron is against them... maybe 60/40? Eidilon usually hurts them more than us and they have to use two bolts to get rid of the creatures. Lavamancer is usually worthless as well. Post board they have Paths and nothing else. I imagine Infect is also going to be in that range as well although I haven't done much testing against them (it's probably 70/30 in their favor). This all probably changes depending on how you splash (for instance BW is better equipped to handle Affinity). Tron is another one that it depends on the version you are running, but Mono B<> with 4-6 land destruction effects and discard makes a huge difference. Depending on what happens with Bloom, it will have decent matchups against most of the field.
Seer is going to be huge for this deck for sure, and maybe Smasher depending on which direction the build takes. IMO he's either a 4-of or a none-of and there are arguments for both sides. But I agree with you on Wail... I could see Eldrazi, Affinity, and Tron running it in the side though.
The current builds are going to change drastically. Jacob Baugh added Kozilek's Channeler, as I did, because it taps for 2 mana.
Add Thought-Knot Seer, and drop the number of Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek in half. You now have that many more slots. Kozilek's Return utterly destroys board state, but may not be necessary after Ulamog comes down.
[card]Conduit of Ruin[/card has a lot of potential, as well. Since so many Eldrazi have so many capabilities, I think a lot of the selection will come down to mainboard and sideboard metagaming.
I'm debating using those extra Thoughtseize spaces to throw in some anti anti-eldrazi stuff. Or more creatures. Hmmmm. Is Vesuva Modern legal?
Sure, but he's going straight up ramp/aggro into Ulamog with Heartless Summoning. In the end he might be right, but my problem with that particular build is that it makes everything a lot more vulnerable to Bolt. I mean, TKS becomes a lot less awesome when Bolt can kill it. Also it still has problems against fast aggro. Like I said, that may be the best version in the end but in my testing it is much less consistent and much more glass cannon.
1: Eye of Ugin only lowers the costs of Eldrazi, not all colorless creatures. Eldrazi Temple only taps for 2 mana if you play an Eldrazi with that mana. What you are looking for is a Shields of Velis Vel type effect, and they will only affect cards already in play. I doubt there is a Mycosynth Lattice type enchantment that will give all creatures in hand, library and graveyard a specific creature type.
2: Colorless is not a color.
What you want is more akin to Mirror Entity, but that only targets creatures already in play. Once they are down, we don't care what they are. We only care that they are Eldrazi when deployed to get the bonuses in extra mana and cheaper casting cost.
Even if Painter's Servant did allow you to choose colorless as a color, the only use would be to allow you to pay 7 and search for a creature with Eye of Ugin.
EDIT: After thinking some, you may be intending to use PS as anti-Eldrazi tech by giving them a color, and thus negating Eye of Ugin and Eldrazi Temple, which only target colorless Eldrazi. This may work with generically colorless eldrazi, but unless I am missing something, it will not work with devoid Eldrazi, as they specifically reassert their devoid status.
Effectively de-powers Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Conduit of Ruin (and All is dust, if anyone plays that). And Ancient Stirrings against green. It's something.
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MODERN Blue Lantern, UBx Tezzerator. OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
1: Eye of Ugin only lowers the costs of Eldrazi, not all colorless creatures. Eldrazi Temple only taps for 2 mana if you play an Eldrazi with that mana. What you are looking for is a Shields of Velis Vel type effect, and they will only affect cards already in play. I doubt there is a Mycosynth Lattice type enchantment that will give all creatures in hand, library and graveyard a specific creature type.
2: Colorless is not a color.
What you want is more akin to Mirror Entity, but that only targets creatures already in play. Once they are down, we don't care what they are. We only care that they are Eldrazi when deployed to get the bonuses in extra mana and cheaper casting cost.
Even if Painter's Servant did allow you to choose colorless as a color, the only use would be to allow you to pay 7 and search for a creature with Eye of Ugin.
EDIT: After thinking some, you may be intending to use PS as anti-Eldrazi tech by giving them a color, and thus negating Eye of Ugin and Eldrazi Temple, which only target colorless Eldrazi. This may work with generically colorless eldrazi, but unless I am missing something, it will not work with devoid Eldrazi, as they specifically reassert their devoid status.
Effectively de-powers Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Conduit of Ruin (and All is dust, if anyone plays that). And Ancient Stirrings against green. It's something.
Eh, unless I'm missing something it has a similar effect to Blood Moon. It hurts, yes, but it can be played through and it's easy to interact with. I could see a deck running Chord using it to stall for a turn or so but unless you need to turn off colorless for something specific that turn I don't see it making much of an impact. Could be wrong though.
Painter's Servant seems like a much narrower Blood Moon to me. Roughly the same effect (but doesn't turn off other utility lands, waste-mana lands, or tutor on Eye), one less mana, but also easier to remove. The real question though is: is Eldrazi really going to be big enough to run such a narrow card anywhere in your 75 against it when there are other options that are useful in all sorts of matchups?
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
I don't think it's worth running specific hate like Painter's Servant or splashing red specifically for Blood Moon/Magus JUST to stop Eldrazi when they really don't do much and there are much better card with much broader applications. Artifact hate, Leyline of Sanctity, Tec Edge/Fulminator, etc are all much better options. Plus keep in mind that it is mostly a fair deck with a pseudo combo in hardcasting Ulamog (sometimes T4). The main game plan is almost the same as Jund... Heavy discard backed up by good beaters.
I think you are not giving enough importance to Servant being 1) a creature (not an enchanment or artifact that can't atack) and 2) colorless (so it fits in EVERY deck, including decks that can't play Moon, Leyline, etc...)
Not saying that it is good, but it is certainly a tool.
I mean, I guess it warrants testing but IMO it is far too narrow of an application especially since it doesn't do much to stop the deck unless it comes down T2-3. Even then, it only delays it a turn if it even survives. I'm just saying if you are going to do something like that you'd be better off running Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker and name Relic/Claws or Expedition Map. Needle could even name Eye to shut down tutoring (though that would probably be a mistake).
It's a good combination of early preassure and land denyal...on paper at least. Still haven't played with it but seems reasonable Mu. Do you think i'm wrong?
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My Decks on Paper: UWR Control/Midrange/Delver UWR Twin Miss you GBWJunk (still semi-budget; 3 tarmo only) GWAura Hexproof GWHatebears
Usually, they are very scarce on boardwipes, while Tron runs a minimum of 7 (O-stone/Pyroclasm). Instead, they want to play a strategy with lots of Thoughtseize effects (5 maindeck for BW). BW doesn't run much in the way of 2-drops, so you'll be looking dumb if you don't sideboard out Spell Snare. Unlike Tron, they are not complete pushovers against fast aggro. They can slow you down with Path and use Wasteland Strangler to make space.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Very well put sir. I too am like you, I love this time currently in Magic getting to watch this break through deck develop overnight and all the buzz it's causing. People are jumping on the bandwagon or crying "ban list!" and its funny to see all the card price spikes. One part of me loves that some dollar rares (aside from oblivion sower) all started this. At first it looked like a draft deck but it means business. After all the talk that BFZ was garbage this deck emerged, so that's cool. Yet another part of me is worried to see how over time this deck can be exploited even further. The processor version is very graveyard oppressive which is very "format warping" for many modern decks. Either way we will see. I play burn so it doesn't matter much to me other than not having lavamancer targets.
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
That also depends, each of the different iterations have different game plans and functionality and equally whenever we get the third Eldrazi set/block also gives an additional move towards what Emrakul's lineage means for the deck. If you look at the Sliver decks, the game plan is more open ended and there are different constructs because of the diverse nature that slivers has and that there are fewer people refining the list than others.
Eldrazi is different that is has a flavor of the month appeal combined with some strong hate against graveyard decks. However, the issue is linking up specific cards. There could just as well be two or three different decks using a slightly altered core but different contingent spells.
The Eldrazi are fairly varied between the three boards, which culminates into a different aspects that makes it more hydra possibilities as compared to certain decks with a longer history and a more varied approach to metas. The closest, nearest approximation is Slivers followed by Humans as a tribe. Everything else is linear or mono color to consider tribal comparisons or are not a part of the decks.
Modern
Commander
Cube
<a href="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-lists/588020-unpowered-themed-enchantment-an-enchanted-evening">An Enchanted Evening Cube </a>
However, there are meta calls where it is highly in your advantage to play something other than midrange. To grow as a player, sometimes you have to pick up the robots or bolts and start throwing them at people.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Look, Ive been playing the deck because I want to give it a fair shot. Its a very very real deck. But while it KILLS midrange/late game decks, it completely folds to fast combo (that can slip past 1/2 discard spells) and early game decks in general. Even Naya company can beat it pretty easily and thats the slowest aggro deck around.
Why people are freaking out is simple. Its a new deck that wins against tier 1 decks. Its healthy because it actually makes tier 2 decks that were held down by jund and twins rein viable.
The post you're replying to (I think) is about what will happen when Oath of the Gatewatch hits, which has the potential to totally shake up the lists. TBH I suspect the current Eldrazi Processors lists won't emerge as the dominant pile within the archetype.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Delver right now as it is beats Eldrazi. Anything aggressive is pretty good against them. Hell, twin beating down is pretty good at killing them. Twin playing slow isnt, but in my testing any twin player in the know has been bolting turn 1, casting snapcaster on turn 2, casting pester on turn 3 to slow mana, and just beating to death.
I wasnt actually. The deck really (at least in my opinion and testing) 1.5 new cards to use. Thought knot is the real deal, and helps medicate that fast combo matchup, but nothing helps the aggro matchup. Reality Smasher (probably doesnt make the cut) closes out the game against reactive decks faster. Something they can use, but they already are good against late game decks. Warping Wail helps against aggro, but really only stops affinity... once. Affinity doesnt lose to spot removal, it shows that time and time again. New Kozi basically insures game wins late game... which again, doesnt help against the current bad matchups. Return of Kozi actually kills off affinity, but red also opens it up to a world of pain, making any aggression more likely to kill it (so even twin/jund beats now have a shot) Endbringer likely doesnt actually do anything, since it gets cast turnnnn 3 earliest? and thats with everything going right. Drawing isnt all that good because conduit tutors, tapping isnt good because youre being swarmed, 1 damage is pretty bad.
And if you're playing cheaper cmc eldrazi youre playing bad merfolk.
I cant say for sure if heartless or processor is going to be top dog next round, but it still doesnt solve the aggro/combo matchup nearly as much as people seem to think. Its a rock deck, and beats midgame and late game decks, but loses to early game decks. Which is GOOD for the meta, because the early game decks lose to midgame decks.
Eldrazi>midgame>early game>eldrazi.
Seer is going to be huge for this deck for sure, and maybe Smasher depending on which direction the build takes. IMO he's either a 4-of or a none-of and there are arguments for both sides. But I agree with you on Wail... I could see Eldrazi, Affinity, and Tron running it in the side though.
Add Thought-Knot Seer, and drop the number of Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek in half. You now have that many more slots.
Kozilek's Return utterly destroys board state, but may not be necessary after Ulamog comes down.
[card]Conduit of Ruin[/card has a lot of potential, as well. Since so many Eldrazi have so many capabilities, I think a lot of the selection will come down to mainboard and sideboard metagaming.
I'm debating using those extra Thoughtseize spaces to throw in some anti anti-eldrazi stuff. Or more creatures. Hmmmm. Is Vesuva Modern legal?
1: Eye of Ugin only lowers the costs of Eldrazi, not all colorless creatures. Eldrazi Temple only taps for 2 mana if you play an Eldrazi with that mana. What you are looking for is a Shields of Velis Vel type effect, and they will only affect cards already in play. I doubt there is a Mycosynth Lattice type enchantment that will give all creatures in hand, library and graveyard a specific creature type.
2: Colorless is not a color.
What you want is more akin to Mirror Entity, but that only targets creatures already in play. Once they are down, we don't care what they are. We only care that they are Eldrazi when deployed to get the bonuses in extra mana and cheaper casting cost.
Even if Painter's Servant did allow you to choose colorless as a color, the only use would be to allow you to pay 7 and search for a creature with Eye of Ugin.
EDIT: After thinking some, you may be intending to use PS as anti-Eldrazi tech by giving them a color, and thus negating Eye of Ugin and Eldrazi Temple, which only target colorless Eldrazi. This may work with generically colorless eldrazi, but unless I am missing something, it will not work with devoid Eldrazi, as they specifically reassert their devoid status.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
Painter's Servant overrides Devoid.
http://magicjudge.tumblr.com/post/129378307907/how-does-painters-servant-interact-with-devoid
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
UWR Control/Midrange/Delver
UWR TwinMiss youGBWJunk (still semi-budget; 3 tarmo only)
GWAura Hexproof
GWHatebears
UWR Control/Midrange/Delver
UWR TwinMiss youGBWJunk (still semi-budget; 3 tarmo only)
GWAura Hexproof
GWHatebears
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