I'll face the inevitable flames and ask if Contaminated Ground would also hose Eldrazi lands? Being a cheaper card, I have a set from the old Gatecrash days.
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I'll face the inevitable flames and ask if Contaminated Ground would also hose Eldrazi lands? Being a cheaper card, I have a set from the old Gatecrash days.
How would Rune Snag be as a counterspell work against the deck? If it gets put into the graveyard from exile, it gets better.
They can probably just work around it and prioritize processing other cards before having to pick Snags. Better off with other counters, and that's not to mention that the triggers are on cast meaning counterspells only take away half the value.
I'll face the inevitable flames and ask if Contaminated Ground would also hose Eldrazi lands? Being a cheaper card, I have a set from the old Gatecrash days.
Evil Presence would be better I think? It's certainly more mana efficient.
Spreading Algae would seem to be the best of that class of cards. Giving them swamps seems pointless. Urborg tends to make their stuff swamps anyway.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Giving them swamps seems pointless. Urborg tends to make their stuff swamps anyway.
No, Urborg makes lands swamps " in addition to its other land types." Contaminated Ground makes them swamps, period, and hence not Eye of Ugins or Eldrazi Temples and so on. I'm just looking at that as a black solution.
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Speaking as a BW eldrazi player, any deck that can go wider than we can is potentially a rough matchup. Merfolk, elves, and even BW tokens can all be hard since they have a wide board of threats w/ which to quickly attack and chump our big threats. This may be less of an issue post oath as we get a big-bodied disrupter in TKS and a big-bodied trampler in Reality Smasher but my experience has been that decks that can quickly produce lots of small creatures tend to be more difficult matchups.
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My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Does anyone fear that Eldrazi will make Modern less diverse? I think Merfolk, Infect, Burn, Tron, Twin and Affinity will be very good picks in GP Bologna. I do not really see anything else to be really worth it, apart from the combo decks. Those decks come in my mind as beating Eldrazi. Space for midrange and alternative control will be limited due to Eldrazi pushing them away.
But it seems EVERYTHING limits midrange/control strategies - that's more a weakness of those strategies and shouldn't be the fault of the newer decks. Eldrazi (and tron) open up TONS of combo, aggro, and tempo decks as viable archetypes - so that makes some BGx decks not 50/50 anymore? I don't care. Such is life.
Eldrazi is more a midrange strat then anything really. The BW version anyways.
Genju of the Fens works if you can handle the creature. Can you pay the cost yourself to turn their land into a creature? I've got this deck, and may pull it out someday if Eldrazi take over too much of the meta.
Does anyone fear that Eldrazi will make Modern less diverse? I think Merfolk, Infect, Burn, Tron, Twin and Affinity will be very good picks in GP Bologna. I do not really see anything else to be really worth it, apart from the combo decks. Those decks come in my mind as beating Eldrazi. Space for midrange and alternative control will be limited due to Eldrazi pushing them away.
But it seems EVERYTHING limits midrange/control strategies - that's more a weakness of those strategies and shouldn't be the fault of the newer decks. Eldrazi (and tron) open up TONS of combo, aggro, and tempo decks as viable archetypes - so that makes some BGx decks not 50/50 anymore? I don't care. Such is life.
Eldrazi is more a midrange strat then anything really. The BW version anyways.
I agree with this whole heartedly, it's like a super Jund in the way it plays most times (at least the non heartless version) - but trying to explain this to people has been difficult at best as everyone seems only interested in lumping it in with Tron.
It doesn't pack as much control as Jund does, which is why the wide tribal decks (Goblins, Elves, Merfolk) have positive matchups against it. Robots are also a viable strategy with a positive winrate in my testing. I have no idea how hatebears do against it because of my flagrant distaste for GW.
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These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
I've played it a handful of times since the Twin ban, and it doesnt seem too hard for Burn. I would agree that wide, or fast decks seem to handle it just fine.
I can see how it gets out of hand though by Turn 5/6.
Act of Treason is cheaper to cast, or easier, if you will, and being from Origins, easier to find.
Works very well with 'sacrifice a creature' abilities you own/control.
Act of Treason is cheaper to cast, or easier, if you will, and being from Origins, easier to find.
Works very well with 'sacrifice a creature' abilities you own/control.
Trample is indeed very relevant. The double RR in the cost might be prohibitive. Since Ulamog or reality smasher are the prime targets, this might prove a difficult task. Especialy in Ulamogs case.
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Thanks to SpiderBoy4 @ High-Light Studio's for the awesome banner
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.” —Volrath
seems like a Crumble to Dust on eye/temple would do the trick for a little bit anyway. One other thing i'm noticing is that aside from Relic/Claws, they don't really have tons of card selection/card draw. So with that in mind, maybe discard effects are a solid play?
It's not like they play counters, and its not like their TKS can do all that much damage to you if you just make them discard it. The only downside is that most discard spells specify "nonland" so you can't grab eyes or temples. But I think discard + land destruction + boardwipes is the way to go.
seems like a Crumble to Dust on eye/temple would do the trick for a little bit anyway. One other thing i'm noticing is that aside from Relic/Claws, they don't really have tons of card selection/card draw. So with that in mind, maybe discard effects are a solid play?
It's not like they play counters, and its not like their TKS can do all that much damage to you if you just make them discard it. The only downside is that most discard spells specify "nonland" so you can't grab eyes or temples. But I think discard + land destruction + boardwipes is the way to go.
Just like with RG Tron, I'm not convinced that discard is strong against them when both RG Tron and Eldrazi Black generally beat BGx Midrange in Game 1, and BGx Midrange plays at least 8 cards that make opponents discard (5 targeted discard + 3 Liliana at bare minimum). Sometimes, the best play against them with your discard is to make them discard land search, not threats/removal that could be clogging their hand.
Discard isn't dead against the eldrazi decks but their manabase is the least stable/redundant thing about them and you usually can't make them discard that. If you just make them discard a threat it might stop the turn 2 TKS but they have plenty of other threats to play. Eye of Ugin tutors at instant speed and conduit of ruin puts the card on top of the library where it doesn't get hit by discard. If you already have discard in your deck it can slow them down but the deck is good at top decking so it doesn't feel too much like an answer. From my experience playing the deck the only discard that was painful was if it was backed up by a combo and they took my answer.
Isochron Scepter with Silence seems like it could work against a lot of decks now since GB looks to be in a rough spot and twin is gone. Ulamog can't answer it since he's not instant speed. Even a removal spell on the scepter could help a fair amount. Nevermore on Ulamog hurts the late game of the deck and as an enchantment it's hard to remove. You would need to back it up with something that could answer the rest of the deck like Ensnaring Bridge. Time Stop answers cast triggers and spells although it's too expensive to use against anything that's not Ulamog. Moonhold is probably unplayable without a way to recur it but it's almost a 3 mana timewalk vs most versions of eldrazi/tron.
Is there a reasonable card to hit within the eldrazi deck in this post gatewatch metagame? (seriously I thought the story was that there were tools to handle the eldrazi but this is ridiculous) Would Infinite Obliteration on oblivion sower or ulamog, the ceaseless hunger in black actually help in black? Is it necessary? It seems like attacking the manabase can seem too slow sometimes
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
Speaking as a BW eldrazi player, any deck that can go wider than we can is potentially a rough matchup. Merfolk, elves, and even BW tokens can all be hard since they have a wide board of threats w/ which to quickly attack and chump our big threats. This may be less of an issue post oath as we get a big-bodied disrupter in TKS and a big-bodied trampler in Reality Smasher but my experience has been that decks that can quickly produce lots of small creatures tend to be more difficult matchups.
Take it from a tokens player, Eldrazi is not a good matchup for us. We've been debating how best to fight it for at least a couple weeks now in the tokens thread. My personal SB choices vs it are Runed Halo, Leyline of Sanctity, Stony Silence, and maybe Pithing Needle. Oblivion Sower targets so anything that gives you hexproof/protection from it can seriously slow them down.
Eldrazi does have counters now. Warping Wail will stop Crumble to Dust and almost all of the discard spells. The only Modern legal discard cards that are instants.are Funeral Charm and Piracy Charm. Neither is optimal since opponent chooses what to discard. All other discard spells are sorceries.
There is a new twist on Eldrazi, though. Don't count on Pithing Needle or Infinite Obliteration to stop them now.
I've got a new version that does not have Ulamog or Oblivion Sower. Instead of going large, it tries to go large and wide.
Essentially, the deck casts for early game tokens. Catacomb Sifter, Blisterpod, Scion Summoner type token creators, as well as Call the Scionsand even Skittering Invasion. So long as I can get tokens, I can chump block large threats, ignore small threats and aim for speed.
Wincon is to cast Deceiver of Form and the next turn, cast Conduit of Ruin.
Conduit looks for either Pathrazer of Ulamog or It That Betrays depending on the threats, and number of threats on the board. With several scions on the board that turn into PoU or ITB, their options at that point are extremely limited.
The bonus is, that should they Crumble/Quarter/Moon the Eldrazi turbolands, it will go off faster than trying to extend to Ulamog, with the tokens giving you blocking space, and Conduit and Deceiver are still decent wincons without comboing off.
Reading all the stuff people are writing up here on taking on the Eldrazi decks is making it apparent that folks don't realize there are multiple different Eldrazi decks out right now and the way to handle each of them is a bit different. Mono-B eldrazi is a far different beast from BW, and BR has the most potential of all of them once people learn how to pilot it.
The fact is, Eldrazi is a very skill intensive deck. It survives by virtue of the deck pilot knowing what is threatening from the other opponent and pre-emptively removing that threat via Thoughtseize, Duress, and Inquisition of Kozilek, then using Extirpate or surgical extraction to pull the rest out from the deck. This makes match ups that have opponents go wide a complete pain for the deck to handle, where as anyone that has to sideboard in answers is going to do poorly (especially with Thought-knot seer on the rise).
So how to fight eldrazi? Don't depend on the graveyard and go wide. Man I hope Shadows over Innistrad saves golgari decks.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
has anybody done any testing with UWR control against the mono black version. It seems like eldrazi just void so many cards in that deck that UWR has no real chance
It's just not quite proactive enough tbh.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Evil Presence would be better I think? It's certainly more mana efficient.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
No, Urborg makes lands swamps " in addition to its other land types." Contaminated Ground makes them swamps, period, and hence not Eye of Ugins or Eldrazi Temples and so on. I'm just looking at that as a black solution.
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Eldrazi is more a midrange strat then anything really. The BW version anyways.
Genju of the Fens works if you can handle the creature. Can you pay the cost yourself to turn their land into a creature? I've got this deck, and may pull it out someday if Eldrazi take over too much of the meta.
I agree with this whole heartedly, it's like a super Jund in the way it plays most times (at least the non heartless version) - but trying to explain this to people has been difficult at best as everyone seems only interested in lumping it in with Tron.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
I can see how it gets out of hand though by Turn 5/6.
Spirits
Works very well with 'sacrifice a creature' abilities you own/control.
Traitorous Blood also gives trample, very relevant.
Trample is indeed very relevant. The double RR in the cost might be prohibitive. Since Ulamog or reality smasher are the prime targets, this might prove a difficult task. Especialy in Ulamogs case.
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
It's not like they play counters, and its not like their TKS can do all that much damage to you if you just make them discard it. The only downside is that most discard spells specify "nonland" so you can't grab eyes or temples. But I think discard + land destruction + boardwipes is the way to go.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
Just like with RG Tron, I'm not convinced that discard is strong against them when both RG Tron and Eldrazi Black generally beat BGx Midrange in Game 1, and BGx Midrange plays at least 8 cards that make opponents discard (5 targeted discard + 3 Liliana at bare minimum). Sometimes, the best play against them with your discard is to make them discard land search, not threats/removal that could be clogging their hand.
Isochron Scepter with Silence seems like it could work against a lot of decks now since GB looks to be in a rough spot and twin is gone. Ulamog can't answer it since he's not instant speed. Even a removal spell on the scepter could help a fair amount.
Nevermore on Ulamog hurts the late game of the deck and as an enchantment it's hard to remove. You would need to back it up with something that could answer the rest of the deck like Ensnaring Bridge.
Time Stop answers cast triggers and spells although it's too expensive to use against anything that's not Ulamog.
Moonhold is probably unplayable without a way to recur it but it's almost a 3 mana timewalk vs most versions of eldrazi/tron.
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
Take it from a tokens player, Eldrazi is not a good matchup for us. We've been debating how best to fight it for at least a couple weeks now in the tokens thread. My personal SB choices vs it are Runed Halo, Leyline of Sanctity, Stony Silence, and maybe Pithing Needle. Oblivion Sower targets so anything that gives you hexproof/protection from it can seriously slow them down.
There is a new twist on Eldrazi, though. Don't count on Pithing Needle or Infinite Obliteration to stop them now.
I've got a new version that does not have Ulamog or Oblivion Sower. Instead of going large, it tries to go large and wide.
Essentially, the deck casts for early game tokens. Catacomb Sifter, Blisterpod, Scion Summoner type token creators, as well as Call the Scionsand even Skittering Invasion. So long as I can get tokens, I can chump block large threats, ignore small threats and aim for speed.
Wincon is to cast Deceiver of Form and the next turn, cast Conduit of Ruin.
Conduit looks for either Pathrazer of Ulamog or It That Betrays depending on the threats, and number of threats on the board. With several scions on the board that turn into PoU or ITB, their options at that point are extremely limited.
The bonus is, that should they Crumble/Quarter/Moon the Eldrazi turbolands, it will go off faster than trying to extend to Ulamog, with the tokens giving you blocking space, and Conduit and Deceiver are still decent wincons without comboing off.
The fact is, Eldrazi is a very skill intensive deck. It survives by virtue of the deck pilot knowing what is threatening from the other opponent and pre-emptively removing that threat via Thoughtseize, Duress, and Inquisition of Kozilek, then using Extirpate or surgical extraction to pull the rest out from the deck. This makes match ups that have opponents go wide a complete pain for the deck to handle, where as anyone that has to sideboard in answers is going to do poorly (especially with Thought-knot seer on the rise).
So how to fight eldrazi? Don't depend on the graveyard and go wide. Man I hope Shadows over Innistrad saves golgari decks.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!