Anyone got any idea what is going on with Westvale Abbey? The price is rising really fast and it doesn't seem like it would be a first pick for modern, at least. Maybe people are banking on the midrange deck dominance coming in the next standard and the sheer volume of token makers?
That isn't to say I don't want one just to throw into my BW tokens or dredge deck to try out, though.
B/W Control looks to be the front-runner control deck for standard; Secure the Wastes,Gideon's Oath, and Gideon himself all work in the deck and turn Westvale Abbey on. Plus G/W Humans can get pretty wide quickly with the transform, token-making creature, which can also feed itself and its cultist to the demon land. The land can pretty much slot into a few decks as a big finisher without taking up any room(Control decks can run more removal and aggro can get the land without drawing their big creature too early.
Someone explain to me the bear case on Duskwatch Recruiter please. Its not Tarmogoyf, but I don't get to play 12 of those.
On the front side, it is a 2/2 that is somewhat ignorable, but with a built in card draw mana sink which can be awfully useful and makes it a reasonable top deck. If it flips, you get the going rate body you'd expect for Modern (a 3/3 for 2 mana), we all know mana reduction abilities are very good. It dies to all the removal, but only at a net cost of 1 mana. It seems good as a 1-2 of in decks that play 20+ creatures.
Beware--I'm testing Duskwatch Recruiter in 29-creature Melira Company and I probably whiff 1/4 to 1/3 of the time. It's nice to have CA that doesn't rely on the graveyard, but Duskwatch Recuiter needs an insane number of creatures to still not be broken.
Traverse is like a green Serum Visions. Only a tad stronger.
To be honest, I find an sentence like this downright insulting and fitting of a mod-warning, since it's a 1-liner, makes no sense, and doesn't even explain the resoning behind it.
I really dont know if Traverse will be good or not, but a Serum Visions? A card that lets you tutor for any creature or land in a 60 card deck, versus a card that draws a card and lets you see 2 cards... what in the earth have they in common? Seriously, I want to know.
Anyone got any idea what is going on with Westvale Abbey? The price is rising really fast and it doesn't seem like it would be a first pick for modern, at least. Maybe people are banking on the midrange deck dominance coming in the next standard and the sheer volume of token makers?
That isn't to say I don't want one just to throw into my BW tokens or dredge deck to try out, though.
Given the number of ways to search for or recur land in Modern, how easy it is to generate creatures in bulk and the strong payoff its an easy card to like.
I'm not sure if Westvale Abbey will be modern playable at all. This format has many types of removal that make a 0cmc creature never get its payoff. Path to Exile or simple removal as Vapor Snag or Repeal leads to blowouts where only one mana has to be paid to dilute the expenses of 5 creatures and 5 mana. I can't imagine it being fast enough either to be effective against decks that run low on removal or have no efficient removal against the demon since it will still be good enough to kill the creatures required to summon it.
It may be viable in some Token decks. But as I said, only against few decks that don't run white or blue. Often you are able to win the game by itself if you are banking 5 creatures. Please think about it.
No I agree, it feels very risky against anything that has exile or bounce effects to remove creatures. It's strong against black, red, and green removal due to indestructible, so I'd imagine it would fair better vs those decks that focus into those colors.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
GW and BW decks have Gavony Township and Vault of the Archangel to turn a bunch of tokens/mana dorks into a win. If you have 5 Spirit tokens, you can activate Vault and get 10 power of flying lifelink creatures for the turn, or activate Abbey and get one 9/7 flying lifelink creature, which is indestructible, but Pathable.
Abbey is better if you have 0 creatures (it can act as a bad Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree), but with Bitterblossom and PWs it's unlikely to happen.
On paper, Abbey will beat sweepers. Realistically, almost all your token makers are sorcery-speed, so you'll play a token maker and pass the turn with 5 tokens. Your opponent will then go "oh *****, looks like I'd better blow this Wrath now" and sweep your board.
Also, if you're playing Tokens, you have anthems. It doesn't make sense to throw away your tokens for one non-token creature and lose the anthem boost.
Young Pyromancer makes a lot of otherwise relatively worthless creatures pretty easily. We've all died under an avalanche of 1/1 elementals before, where I am going is to say YP decks don't tend to run Anthem effects or other token support, but still can generate a lot of creatures. There may be other incidental engines also.
Of course a reasonable case can be made that if you get 5 YP tokens on the board you're in pretty good shape regardless. Also, current YP shells don't get to 5 mana easily.
Young Pyromancer makes a lot of otherwise relatively worthless creatures pretty easily. We've all died under an avalanche of 1/1 elementals before, where I am going is to say YP decks don't tend to run Anthem effects or other token support, but still can generate a lot of creatures. There may be other incidental engines also.
Of course a reasonable case can be made that if you get 5 YP tokens on the board you're in pretty good shape regardless. Also, current YP shells don't get to 5 mana easily.
If you have five YP tokens and haven't won, Ormendahl isn't saving you. It's hard to lose with three of those tokens on the board in shells that support YP, let alone five.
I really like Abbey and Ormendahl, but I struggle to think of a deck that would win with Ormendahl that wouldn't have won with the five tokens AND is somehow better than BW Tokens.
Young Pyromancer makes a lot of otherwise relatively worthless creatures pretty easily. We've all died under an avalanche of 1/1 elementals before, where I am going is to say YP decks don't tend to run Anthem effects or other token support, but still can generate a lot of creatures. There may be other incidental engines also.
Of course a reasonable case can be made that if you get 5 YP tokens on the board you're in pretty good shape regardless. Also, current YP shells don't get to 5 mana easily.
If you have five YP tokens and haven't won, Ormendahl isn't saving you. It's hard to lose with three of those tokens on the board in shells that support YP, let alone five.
I really like Abbey and Ormendahl, but I struggle to think of a deck that would win with Ormendahl that wouldn't have won with the five tokens AND is somehow better than BW Tokens.
I am 100% with you. My first inclination is if a midrange BW Eldrazi shell survives the bans (which it very well may even if both Temple and Eye are gone). It will need more <C> lands going forward and the deck's current iteration has 8 cards that pump out 4 bodies in Lingering Souls and Blight Herder. Currently I am looking at Abbey as essentially Wrath of God insurance because those types of cards already hurt the archetype a bit. Now you can sac off your board and have a 9/7 Flying Indestructible Lifelink creature. Because the deck will need to stall faster decks even more than before, I am considering adding in something like Bitterblossom and while 5 1/1's means you are likely winning.. this gets you life back if it's killing you. I'm not 100% sold on it yet but it does provide some utility at next to 0 cost in that kind of deck that wants colorless mana anyway.
So far Traverse the Ulvenwald seems like the only card that has real potential. It might help Bant or Sultai mid-range/control decks helping them hit early land drops then transitioning into copy x of any given chosen finisher.
I think in the right shell Thing in the Ice has it too as well as Avacyn Archangel in UWx control and possibly Asylum Visitor but you have to build your deck around it to work properly.
Does anyone think Mindwrack Demon could see play as an option for midrange decks like Abzan or GB? A 4/5 flyer w/trample for four is a good deal, and delirium is not very hard to hit in those colors, especially if you run Oath of Nissa as a ponder effect. Besides this the binning 4 on etb can grow goyfs and reveal lingering souls. I don't feel it's a 4 of but I think it might be decent as a 1-2?
I don't think Mindwrack Demon is good enough to see play in GBx decks especially since it's a 4 drop and these already have plenty of good 4 drops while this one doesn't seem better than any of them.
I really don't think thing in the ice will be that good in modern. dies all day to abrupt decay and even to twisted image. The type of decks that would want it are things like delver and if delver decks had the means to protect early threats it would already be better than tier 3; BGx affinity UWcontrol GWUco-co all have MD options that it pairs badly with.
I think Archangel Avacyn will probably be a SB card 5c.c. is a big investment if you flash it at end of their turn they simply kill it on your upkeep; play it during yours its getting removed before you untap. UW already is deep on the man land plan for victory and they don't really need to invest more space for more threats.
Asylum Visitor will likely see play as a budget version of DC but the contingency on being hellbent for it to be effective i think will prove to be a little to much variance to rely on it as a source of CA. Im of the opinion that after the bannings that Sea Gate Wreckage will see more play in mid-range/control decks. maybe it will see sideboard play as a card to bring in against BGx decks so a mirror breaker? if your opponent lands a lilly and you get to madness this out when your already going hellbent on the attrition mirror it could be good but even then you need to hit another threat to protect it from her sac ability on the following turn.
I feel like Wizards have missed a great opportunity to push 3 cmc counterspells. A simple design like "Counter target spell. Investigate" is actually pretty good and it will push players to play a 3 cmc counterspell because drawing a card is always encouraging. Oh well, maybe if they keep the Investigate mechanic in Eldrich Moon? I have hope.
I really don't think thing in the ice will be that good in modern. dies all day to abrupt decay and even to twisted image. The type of decks that would want it are things like delver and if delver decks had the means to protect early threats it would already be better than tier 3; BGx affinity UWcontrol GWUco-co all have MD options that it pairs badly with.
I think Archangel Avacyn will probably be a SB card 5c.c. is a big investment if you flash it at end of their turn they simply kill it on your upkeep; play it during yours its getting removed before you untap. UW already is deep on the man land plan for victory and they don't really need to invest more space for more threats.
Asylum Visitor will likely see play as a budget version of DC but the contingency on being hellbent for it to be effective i think will prove to be a little to much variance to rely on it as a source of CA. Im of the opinion that after the bannings that Sea Gate Wreckage will see more play in mid-range/control decks. maybe it will see sideboard play as a card to bring in against BGx decks so a mirror breaker? if your opponent lands a lilly and you get to madness this out when your already going hellbent on the attrition mirror it could be good but even then you need to hit another threat to protect it from her sac ability on the following turn.
Or you just kill Avacyn in response to her trigger. I agree with that thought process. Folks still play Resto-angel as a reactive "save my thing" but that helps dodge path, costs 1 less, has only 1 less power and is more restrictive on what it can blink. I don't know if you want to spend 1 more mana for Avacyn. I'd think you'd almost have to be able to flip her reliably and that will require too much work (not to mention most sacrifice oriented decks (like Aristocrats variants) don't want to get Angered for free on the next upkeep. If Avacyn hit just your opponents creatures then maybe. As she stands, she'll likely clear your own board as well.
I feel like Wizards have missed a great opportunity to push 3 cmc counterspells. A simple design like "Counter target spell. Investigate" is actually pretty good and it will push players to play a 3 cmc counterspell because drawing a card is always encouraging. Oh well, maybe if they keep the Investigate mechanic in Eldrich Moon? I have hope.
I'm still really peeved about this. Going to be on the lookout for the design article that inevitably says something annoying about how they tried it but it was too strong/inappropriate for Standard.
I feel like Wizards have missed a great opportunity to push 3 cmc counterspells. A simple design like "Counter target spell. Investigate" is actually pretty good and it will push players to play a 3 cmc counterspell because drawing a card is always encouraging. Oh well, maybe if they keep the Investigate mechanic in Eldrich Moon? I have hope.
I'm still really peeved about this. Going to be on the lookout for the design article that inevitably says something annoying about how they tried it but it was too strong/inappropriate for Standard.
I expect them stating as much too though I disagree. You are spending 3 CMC to counter the spell and then 2 additional mana to draw a card at a later date. (and that card draw can be neutralized with artifact hate... granted there isn't a ton of that in standard).
How's the testing with Thing in The Ice been going for you? I started it with moderate expectations since it's the typical card that seems much better on paper than on real games, and it's fallen within the "average" range.
I still need to try it much more, but overall I've felt that, indeed, 4 triggers can be quite card to pull off (and as a comparison by the time you get 4 tokens with Pyromancer you are already very ahead). It is true that bolt immunity is very relevant, but the fact that it doesnt hit for 2 and still gets decayed, etc, it's concerning.
As for the transformation itself, I've felt it's very powerful, but even more because you get to return your Snapcasters than anything else, hah. And it can "help" the opponent this way sometimes. The body is amazing though, 7/8 is huuuge.
I think if this thing (pun indended) triggered like Prowess (Baubles included) it would be a top-tier card. As of now, I think I may be playable but I'm not convinced yet.
How's the testing with Thing in The Ice been going for you? I started it with moderate expectations since it's the typical card that seems much better on paper than on real games, and it's fallen within the "average" range.
I still need to try it much more, but overall I've felt that, indeed, 4 triggers can be quite card to pull off (and as a comparison by the time you get 4 tokens with Pyromancer you are already very ahead). It is true that bolt immunity is very relevant, but the fact that it doesnt hit for 2 and still gets decayed, etc, it's concerning.
As for the transformation itself, I've felt it's very powerful, but even more because you get to return your Snapcasters than anything else, hah. And it can "help" the opponent this way sometimes. The body is amazing though, 7/8 is huuuge.
I think if this thing (pun indended) triggered like Prowess (Baubles included) it would be a top-tier card. As of now, I think I may be playable but I'm not convinced yet.
I've gone as far as to build a deck around Thing and I've been extremely impressed, but I definitely think that it takes it's own special kind of shell. YP is definitely an interesting comparison because YP thrives on decks that can enable it and it in return gives passive advantage, meaning a deck doesn't have to be geared to protecting YP to get value out of it - as you pointed out though this isn't the case with Thing as it's all or nothing for those triggers, so the support shell around it needs to be changed up a bit. I DO feel like it's worth it though because the raw power level is through the roof. People jamming 4 of them into non 'thing' optimized shells though are going to be pretty let down.
Well, now it's the waiting game until the set gets released this coming April. Got all the bits and bobs I want from it pre-ordered and shipping on the 8th of April, and waiting until probably April 15th to really look at the mythics and rares. I've got a feeling a lot of top dollar cards will lose value once the drafting is underway.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
So far Traverse the Ulvenwald seems like the only card that has real potential. It might help Bant or Sultai mid-range/control decks helping them hit early land drops then transitioning into copy x of any given chosen finisher.
I think in the right shell Thing in the Ice has it too as well as Avacyn Archangel in UWx control and possibly Asylum Visitor but you have to build your deck around it to work properly.
Does anyone think Mindwrack Demon could see play as an option for midrange decks like Abzan or GB? A 4/5 flyer w/trample for four is a good deal, and delirium is not very hard to hit in those colors, especially if you run Oath of Nissa as a ponder effect. Besides this the binning 4 on etb can grow goyfs and reveal lingering souls. I don't feel it's a 4 of but I think it might be decent as a 1-2?
I don't think Mindwrack Demon is good enough to see play in GBx decks especially since it's a 4 drop and these already have plenty of good 4 drops while this one doesn't seem better than any of them.
I really don't think thing in the ice will be that good in modern. dies all day to abrupt decay and even to twisted image. The type of decks that would want it are things like delver and if delver decks had the means to protect early threats it would already be better than tier 3; BGx affinity UWcontrol GWUco-co all have MD options that it pairs badly with.
I think Archangel Avacyn will probably be a SB card 5c.c. is a big investment if you flash it at end of their turn they simply kill it on your upkeep; play it during yours its getting removed before you untap. UW already is deep on the man land plan for victory and they don't really need to invest more space for more threats.
Asylum Visitor will likely see play as a budget version of DC but the contingency on being hellbent for it to be effective i think will prove to be a little to much variance to rely on it as a source of CA. Im of the opinion that after the bannings that Sea Gate Wreckage will see more play in mid-range/control decks. maybe it will see sideboard play as a card to bring in against BGx decks so a mirror breaker? if your opponent lands a lilly and you get to madness this out when your already going hellbent on the attrition mirror it could be good but even then you need to hit another threat to protect it from her sac ability on the following turn.
We live in a world where UW is playing Gideon, Dragonlord Ojutai, Sun Titan and Elspeth Sun's Champion so 5-6 mana isn't unreasonable since UW needs to get to that point to win the game anyhow. Avacyn also has flash which negates so much clunkiness that these cards have. "killing avacyn at upkeep" is pretty difficult to do since UW control decks run tons of counterspells (typcally 6-10 plus snap) so good luck with doing that. Avacyn is the next Resto in terms of what she does for UW control decks. 5 mana indestructible so they have to wait to your upkeep to kill it, flips off of a killed lingering soul token dying/snap dying, serra angel stats. Idk what more this card needs.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Just noticed that Harness the Storm doesn't exile cards cast from the graveyard. Any chance it'll replace Past in Flames? It looks playable in storm at least.
Just noticed that Harness the Storm doesn't exile cards cast from the graveyard. Any chance it'll replace Past in Flames? It looks playable in storm at least.
Nah. Past in Flames gives you like 7+ re-uses out of your spells. Harness the Storm won't be able to match that number.
Harness the Storm is amazing in a slower format. I'm not sure if it's worth it in modern unless we see a more midrange spell heavy deck form and right now Modern is just insanely fast. It feels like an enchantment someone would want one turn earlier than turn 3 is the problem, and the only way to do that is to ramp into it. One play I could see being done is build around using manamorphosedesperate Ritual, power out the enchantment, then run another Desperate Ritual to explode into something big.
The other option is run token producing spells like Hordeling Outburst. It basically doubles the value from the card late game so that you end up with a six token rush instead of a three token rush. Add in Young Pyromancer and Goblin Dark-dwellers and things start looking interesting. Heck, it makes Dragon fodder a 4 cmc make 4 1/1 goblin tokens.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Harness the Storm is amazing in a slower format. I'm not sure if it's worth it in modern unless we see a more midrange spell heavy deck form and right now Modern is just insanely fast. It feels like an enchantment someone would want one turn earlier than turn 3 is the problem, and the only way to do that is to ramp into it. One play I could see being done is build around using manamorphosedesperate Ritual, power out the enchantment, then run another Desperate Ritual to explode into something big.
The other option is run token producing spells like Hordeling Outburst. It basically doubles the value from the card late game so that you end up with a six token rush instead of a three token rush. Add in Young Pyromancer and Goblin Dark-dwellers and things start looking interesting. Heck, it makes Dragon fodder a 4 cmc make 4 1/1 goblin tokens.
This card is complete garbage because in order to use it you need a copy of a card in your graveyard. That would be fine if the card was copied for free but the fact that you have to pay the mana cost, it makes this card so bad. Put it this way imagine your opponent has a scavenging ooze or a relic of progenitus out, it makes this card beyond useless.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Harness the Storm is amazing in a slower format. I'm not sure if it's worth it in modern unless we see a more midrange spell heavy deck form and right now Modern is just insanely fast. It feels like an enchantment someone would want one turn earlier than turn 3 is the problem, and the only way to do that is to ramp into it. One play I could see being done is build around using manamorphosedesperate Ritual, power out the enchantment, then run another Desperate Ritual to explode into something big.
The other option is run token producing spells like Hordeling Outburst. It basically doubles the value from the card late game so that you end up with a six token rush instead of a three token rush. Add in Young Pyromancer and Goblin Dark-dwellers and things start looking interesting. Heck, it makes Dragon fodder a 4 cmc make 4 1/1 goblin tokens.
This card is complete garbage because in order to use it you need a copy of a card in your graveyard. That would be fine if the card was copied for free but the fact that you have to pay the mana cost, it makes this card so bad. Put it this way imagine your opponent has a scavenging ooze or a relic of progenitus out, it makes this card beyond useless.
That's why it's costed where it's at, most likely. I'm thinking of decks that force discard for card draw, which is common for red via cards like faithless looting. If someone wasn't running those, then they'd have to have already cast some of the spells in question. Personally, I don't think it's a garbage card for play, it's just that any deck that can make use of it probably has a better option available right now in modern.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Harness the Storm is amazing in a slower format. I'm not sure if it's worth it in modern unless we see a more midrange spell heavy deck form and right now Modern is just insanely fast. It feels like an enchantment someone would want one turn earlier than turn 3 is the problem, and the only way to do that is to ramp into it. One play I could see being done is build around using manamorphosedesperate Ritual, power out the enchantment, then run another Desperate Ritual to explode into something big.
The other option is run token producing spells like Hordeling Outburst. It basically doubles the value from the card late game so that you end up with a six token rush instead of a three token rush. Add in Young Pyromancer and Goblin Dark-dwellers and things start looking interesting. Heck, it makes Dragon fodder a 4 cmc make 4 1/1 goblin tokens.
This card is complete garbage because in order to use it you need a copy of a card in your graveyard. That would be fine if the card was copied for free but the fact that you have to pay the mana cost, it makes this card so bad. Put it this way imagine your opponent has a scavenging ooze or a relic of progenitus out, it makes this card beyond useless.
That's why it's costed where it's at, most likely. I'm thinking of decks that force discard for card draw, which is common for red via cards like faithless looting. If someone wasn't running those, then they'd have to have already cast some of the spells in question. Personally, I don't think it's a garbage card for play, it's just that any deck that can make use of it probably has a better option available right now in modern.
Modern is a very fast format that demands that you answer decks that want to kill you fast. The only way that this card is playable is if it gave you the card for free. Because it doesn't reward you for getting the card on the battlefield at all. The best thing you can do is get a repeat bolt in the graveyard. Like brain in a jar it takes to much setup to be good. If you want a better card isochron scepter is a lot better and requires a lot less setup.
B/W Control looks to be the front-runner control deck for standard; Secure the Wastes,Gideon's Oath, and Gideon himself all work in the deck and turn Westvale Abbey on. Plus G/W Humans can get pretty wide quickly with the transform, token-making creature, which can also feed itself and its cultist to the demon land. The land can pretty much slot into a few decks as a big finisher without taking up any room(Control decks can run more removal and aggro can get the land without drawing their big creature too early.
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Standard Deck:
BUPirates
Modern Deck:
B8-Rack
Beware--I'm testing Duskwatch Recruiter in 29-creature Melira Company and I probably whiff 1/4 to 1/3 of the time. It's nice to have CA that doesn't rely on the graveyard, but Duskwatch Recuiter needs an insane number of creatures to still not be broken.
To be honest, I find an sentence like this downright insulting and fitting of a mod-warning, since it's a 1-liner, makes no sense, and doesn't even explain the resoning behind it.
I really dont know if Traverse will be good or not, but a Serum Visions? A card that lets you tutor for any creature or land in a 60 card deck, versus a card that draws a card and lets you see 2 cards... what in the earth have they in common? Seriously, I want to know.
Demonic Tutor is also a Ponder.
Given the number of ways to search for or recur land in Modern, how easy it is to generate creatures in bulk and the strong payoff its an easy card to like.
No I agree, it feels very risky against anything that has exile or bounce effects to remove creatures. It's strong against black, red, and green removal due to indestructible, so I'd imagine it would fair better vs those decks that focus into those colors.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Abbey is better if you have 0 creatures (it can act as a bad Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree), but with Bitterblossom and PWs it's unlikely to happen.
On paper, Abbey will beat sweepers. Realistically, almost all your token makers are sorcery-speed, so you'll play a token maker and pass the turn with 5 tokens. Your opponent will then go "oh *****, looks like I'd better blow this Wrath now" and sweep your board.
Also, if you're playing Tokens, you have anthems. It doesn't make sense to throw away your tokens for one non-token creature and lose the anthem boost.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Of course a reasonable case can be made that if you get 5 YP tokens on the board you're in pretty good shape regardless. Also, current YP shells don't get to 5 mana easily.
If you have five YP tokens and haven't won, Ormendahl isn't saving you. It's hard to lose with three of those tokens on the board in shells that support YP, let alone five.
I really like Abbey and Ormendahl, but I struggle to think of a deck that would win with Ormendahl that wouldn't have won with the five tokens AND is somehow better than BW Tokens.
I am 100% with you. My first inclination is if a midrange BW Eldrazi shell survives the bans (which it very well may even if both Temple and Eye are gone). It will need more <C> lands going forward and the deck's current iteration has 8 cards that pump out 4 bodies in Lingering Souls and Blight Herder. Currently I am looking at Abbey as essentially Wrath of God insurance because those types of cards already hurt the archetype a bit. Now you can sac off your board and have a 9/7 Flying Indestructible Lifelink creature. Because the deck will need to stall faster decks even more than before, I am considering adding in something like Bitterblossom and while 5 1/1's means you are likely winning.. this gets you life back if it's killing you. I'm not 100% sold on it yet but it does provide some utility at next to 0 cost in that kind of deck that wants colorless mana anyway.
I really don't think thing in the ice will be that good in modern. dies all day to abrupt decay and even to twisted image. The type of decks that would want it are things like delver and if delver decks had the means to protect early threats it would already be better than tier 3; BGx affinity UWcontrol GWUco-co all have MD options that it pairs badly with.
I think Archangel Avacyn will probably be a SB card 5c.c. is a big investment if you flash it at end of their turn they simply kill it on your upkeep; play it during yours its getting removed before you untap. UW already is deep on the man land plan for victory and they don't really need to invest more space for more threats.
Asylum Visitor will likely see play as a budget version of DC but the contingency on being hellbent for it to be effective i think will prove to be a little to much variance to rely on it as a source of CA. Im of the opinion that after the bannings that Sea Gate Wreckage will see more play in mid-range/control decks. maybe it will see sideboard play as a card to bring in against BGx decks so a mirror breaker? if your opponent lands a lilly and you get to madness this out when your already going hellbent on the attrition mirror it could be good but even then you need to hit another threat to protect it from her sac ability on the following turn.
RBUGrixis ControlUBR
GUSimic MerfolkUG
WUUW ControlUW
RBUGrixis ControlUBR
BUUB MillUB
Colorless Eldrazi Tron
WRBurnRW
GUSimic MerfolkUG
UMono U TurnsU
WGGenesis Wave EnchantressGW
Or you just kill Avacyn in response to her trigger. I agree with that thought process. Folks still play Resto-angel as a reactive "save my thing" but that helps dodge path, costs 1 less, has only 1 less power and is more restrictive on what it can blink. I don't know if you want to spend 1 more mana for Avacyn. I'd think you'd almost have to be able to flip her reliably and that will require too much work (not to mention most sacrifice oriented decks (like Aristocrats variants) don't want to get Angered for free on the next upkeep. If Avacyn hit just your opponents creatures then maybe. As she stands, she'll likely clear your own board as well.
I'm still really peeved about this. Going to be on the lookout for the design article that inevitably says something annoying about how they tried it but it was too strong/inappropriate for Standard.
I expect them stating as much too though I disagree. You are spending 3 CMC to counter the spell and then 2 additional mana to draw a card at a later date. (and that card draw can be neutralized with artifact hate... granted there isn't a ton of that in standard).
I still need to try it much more, but overall I've felt that, indeed, 4 triggers can be quite card to pull off (and as a comparison by the time you get 4 tokens with Pyromancer you are already very ahead). It is true that bolt immunity is very relevant, but the fact that it doesnt hit for 2 and still gets decayed, etc, it's concerning.
As for the transformation itself, I've felt it's very powerful, but even more because you get to return your Snapcasters than anything else, hah. And it can "help" the opponent this way sometimes. The body is amazing though, 7/8 is huuuge.
I think if this thing (pun indended) triggered like Prowess (Baubles included) it would be a top-tier card. As of now, I think I may be playable but I'm not convinced yet.
I've gone as far as to build a deck around Thing and I've been extremely impressed, but I definitely think that it takes it's own special kind of shell. YP is definitely an interesting comparison because YP thrives on decks that can enable it and it in return gives passive advantage, meaning a deck doesn't have to be geared to protecting YP to get value out of it - as you pointed out though this isn't the case with Thing as it's all or nothing for those triggers, so the support shell around it needs to be changed up a bit. I DO feel like it's worth it though because the raw power level is through the roof. People jamming 4 of them into non 'thing' optimized shells though are going to be pretty let down.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
If not: UU counter target 3CMC or less spell.
We live in a world where UW is playing Gideon, Dragonlord Ojutai, Sun Titan and Elspeth Sun's Champion so 5-6 mana isn't unreasonable since UW needs to get to that point to win the game anyhow. Avacyn also has flash which negates so much clunkiness that these cards have. "killing avacyn at upkeep" is pretty difficult to do since UW control decks run tons of counterspells (typcally 6-10 plus snap) so good luck with doing that. Avacyn is the next Resto in terms of what she does for UW control decks. 5 mana indestructible so they have to wait to your upkeep to kill it, flips off of a killed lingering soul token dying/snap dying, serra angel stats. Idk what more this card needs.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
The other option is run token producing spells like Hordeling Outburst. It basically doubles the value from the card late game so that you end up with a six token rush instead of a three token rush. Add in Young Pyromancer and Goblin Dark-dwellers and things start looking interesting. Heck, it makes Dragon fodder a 4 cmc make 4 1/1 goblin tokens.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
This card is complete garbage because in order to use it you need a copy of a card in your graveyard. That would be fine if the card was copied for free but the fact that you have to pay the mana cost, it makes this card so bad. Put it this way imagine your opponent has a scavenging ooze or a relic of progenitus out, it makes this card beyond useless.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
That's why it's costed where it's at, most likely. I'm thinking of decks that force discard for card draw, which is common for red via cards like faithless looting. If someone wasn't running those, then they'd have to have already cast some of the spells in question. Personally, I don't think it's a garbage card for play, it's just that any deck that can make use of it probably has a better option available right now in modern.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Modern is a very fast format that demands that you answer decks that want to kill you fast. The only way that this card is playable is if it gave you the card for free. Because it doesn't reward you for getting the card on the battlefield at all. The best thing you can do is get a repeat bolt in the graveyard. Like brain in a jar it takes to much setup to be good. If you want a better card isochron scepter is a lot better and requires a lot less setup.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)