**THIS THREAD IS NOT TO DISCUSS WHAT SHOULD AND SHOULD NOT BE BANNED IN MODERN! SAVE THAT FOR THIS THREAD.**
In my local area the topic of a "Modern tournament without the ban list" is being discussed. If you had the opportunity to play in this, what would you play?
It'd be a terrible, uninteractive format. Even more so than it is now. Because there's no Force of Will or Wasteland, every single Modern game would be a combo deck trying to goldfish before the other combo deck can goldfish.
**THIS THREAD IS NOT TO DISCUSS WHAT SHOULD AND SHOULD NOT BE BANNED IN MODERN! SAVE THAT FOR THIS THREAD.**
In my local area the topic of a "Modern tournament without the ban list" is being discussed. If you had the opportunity to play in this, what would you play?
It would be a scary field to play in! What would you be sleeving up?
We started playing this at my local meta however the only other person that played was playing birthing pod rather than chord toolbox.
I tested out UR delver and it sucked. Even with ponders/preordains/mental misstep, it couldn't beat down consistently. I scrapped it.
Against that pod deck I used merfolks mimicking legacy with mental misstep and disrupting shoal;
game 1, I lost to the combo
game 2, I overwhelmed quickly 8 9/9s
game 3, I lost to finks lifegain and I didn't have spreading seas to close the deal so he chumped all day...
So lessons learned:
- no-ban modern is not like legacy, creatures and blocking matters more than I thought.
- mental misstep was not as useful as I thought. It dealt with 2 paths to exile but most of the time it didn't do much.
- combos that can be easily enabled would probably do better
Personally I am rebuilding birthing pod and grixis twin with the ponders/preordain.
I think pod with the proper tools can deal with anything while also containing 3 creature combos. In addition, pod using outs and cascade creatures is quite strong.
Twin will be the default against other decks.
I personally want to build stoneforge taxes as it nerfs any opposing comboes while allowing early batterskull.
It'd be a terrible, uninteractive format. Even more so than it is now. Because there's no Force of Will or Wasteland, every single Modern game would be a combo deck trying to goldfish before the other combo deck can goldfish.
Except it wouldn't. And if having 8 different combo decks competing for the top is worse than 32 eldrazi variants, then you probably had fun once and it was horrible...
Randy Buehler has also been running a "modern unbanned gauntlet" on youtube, it's an interesting series although I don't like the way they played some of the decks, looks like death & taxes is quite strong, as well as twin and elves
My biggest issue with the gauntlet is the tiers the decks started in and which decks they faced. I mean, the first match storm gets is death and taxes and it's eliminated?! Also they misplay hard or they keep really really bad hands.
I commend them for doing the tournament but I wish they actually played all decks against each other instead.
It's actually not as powerful as you would think. Not saying it should be unbanned or anything, but in any games I've played in no-ban modern, Skullclamp has been a pretty fair card to be honest. In a format like this, grinding out games with incremental card-advantage cards like Skullclamp isn't that game-breaking. Keep in mind, it's a big tempo loss to keep sacrificing your creatures, so the only really busted application to use this is when you can use it in a deck like Affinity or Elves to combo out.
Another thing worth mentioning is that there would be a LOT of artifact hate in a format like this. You pretty much have to have tons of artifact hate since decks like Affinity, Eggs, and others are hypothetically huge parts of it, not to mention more fair decks like Stoneblade and thopter-sword decks being relevant.
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We started playing this at my local meta however the only other person that played was playing birthing pod rather than chord toolbox.
I tested out UR delver and it sucked. Even with ponders/preordains/mental misstep, it couldn't beat down consistently. I scrapped it.
Against that pod deck I used merfolks mimicking legacy with mental misstep and disrupting shoal;
game 1, I lost to the combo
game 2, I overwhelmed quickly 8 9/9s
game 3, I lost to finks lifegain and I didn't have spreading seas to close the deal so he chumped all day...
This makes me sad to hear, I was so certain that it would be a blast to play! I would have thought that all of those cheap/free spells and Treasure Cruise would be phenomenal!
It'd be a terrible, uninteractive format. Even more so than it is now. Because there's no Force of Will or Wasteland, every single Modern game would be a combo deck trying to goldfish before the other combo deck can goldfish.
Not really - formats like these actually promote interactivity since they allow control decks to thrive. Old-extended had some very strong interactive decks like Faeries (often mono-blue) and Tezzerator variants being big as tools that beat up on the combo-heavy meta. Also, there would be a lot more tools to be able to handle combo decks, whether it's a GSZ toolbox, or legal Mental Misstep, or more decks simply maindecking spell pierce with a strong tempo game.
Combo is obviously going to be quite relevant, but I think you would have a LOT of archetypes represented. I honestly think you could have a very diverse meta - all these decks could easily be viable. The supposedly degenerate decks all have viable hate in the format, you don't NEED to have force of will here in my honest opinion. I found in a good amount of testing that people really underestimate the power of hex-depths. Most of the delver-style decks simply aren't equipped to deal with Marit Lage and end up losing to it sooner or later. Similarly, this combo often out-races many of the other combos in the format like Infect, and at times, even storm (especially when backed with a bit of disruption).
Most combo decks in the format get stomped by the tempo decks, regardless of the degenerate cards they do or don't have available to them. Similarly, the tempo decks get stomped by decks like 12post or Jund (especially with punishing fire). Aggro kind of falls in the middle depending on what they're playing vs.
You would likely get lots of combo variants - storm, twin, eggs, dark depths, hypergenesis, Scapeshift, Jeskai Ascendancy, infect.
You would get aggro-combo variants - Affinity, Elves, Dredge, Gx toolbox combos (melira, spike feeder, Knight of the Reliquary combos with dark depths)
You would get pure-aggro decks - namely zoo variants & burn variants
You would get tempo / control variants - Faeries, Delver cruise, stoneblade, merfolk, hatebears, death and taxes
You would probably get straight midrange decks - Jund, Junk, etc
You would probably get some hard control decks - Tezzerator, Next Level Blue, Stoneblade (more controlling versions), Miracles, Counter-Top
You would get ramp variants, most likely all 12post decks, as well as other bigger mana decks like all-in-red.
I would hope nobody would play Eggs, I'd rather lose to anything else.
But Eggs with Artifact lands and Ponder/Preordain!....mmmmm....I did enjoy the Amulet Bloom/Dark Depths deck a friend of mine proxied though too *nods*.
It'd be a terrible, uninteractive format. Even more so than it is now. Because there's no Force of Will or Wasteland, every single Modern game would be a combo deck trying to goldfish before the other combo deck can goldfish.
Not really - formats like these actually promote interactivity since they allow control decks to thrive. Old-extended had some very strong interactive decks like Faeries (often mono-blue) and Tezzerator variants being big as tools that beat up on the combo-heavy meta. Also, there would be a lot more tools to be able to handle combo decks, whether it's a GSZ toolbox, or legal Mental Misstep, or more decks simply maindecking spell pierce with a strong tempo game.
Combo is obviously going to be quite relevant, but I think you would have a LOT of archetypes represented. I honestly think you could have a very diverse meta - all these decks could easily be viable. The supposedly degenerate decks all have viable hate in the format, you don't NEED to have force of will here in my honest opinion. I found in a good amount of testing that people really underestimate the power of hex-depths. Most of the delver-style decks simply aren't equipped to deal with Marit Lage and end up losing to it sooner or later. Similarly, this combo often out-races many of the other combos in the format like Infect, and at times, even storm (especially when backed with a bit of disruption).
Most combo decks in the format get stomped by the tempo decks, regardless of the degenerate cards they do or don't have available to them. Similarly, the tempo decks get stomped by decks like 12post or Jund (especially with punishing fire). Aggro kind of falls in the middle depending on what they're playing vs.
You would likely get lots of combo variants - storm, twin, eggs, dark depths, hypergenesis, Scapeshift, Jeskai Ascendancy, infect.
You would get aggro-combo variants - Affinity, Elves, Dredge, Gx toolbox combos (melira, spike feeder, Knight of the Reliquary combos with dark depths)
You would get pure-aggro decks - namely zoo variants & burn variants
You would get tempo / control variants - Faeries, Delver cruise, stoneblade, merfolk, hatebears, death and taxes
You would probably get straight midrange decks - Jund, Junk, etc
You would probably get some hard control decks - Tezzerator, Next Level Blue, Stoneblade (more controlling versions), Miracles, Counter-Top
You would get ramp variants, most likely all 12post decks, as well as other bigger mana decks like all-in-red.
Except that formats like Vintage and Legacy actually have tools for control to interact early in the game. Modern doesn't have any of this. There is no reliable way for control to deal with combo spells before Turn 2. You basically need Force of Will in the format to prevent fast combo from taking over that format. Nor is there any effective way to deal with broken lands. Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge are vastly inferior compared to Wasteland and Strip Mine.
And what kind of skewed testing have you done exactly? Aggro being able to survive in a Turn-2 kill format? It simply won't happen. In such a format aggro would not even be represented as there would be no point in competing on fair level with such quick combo kills.
I don't see at all how you believe that Zoo, Burn, Junk, Junk, Tezzerator, Stoneblade, and 12post would even survive in this format.
But Eggs with Artifact lands and Ponder/Preordain!....mmmmm....I did enjoy the Amulet Bloom/Dark Depths deck a friend of mine proxied though too *nods*.
What are you talking about??? Eggs needs basic lands and fetchlands, not artifact lands!
Didn't Wizards try this when Modern was first announced? The best deck turns out to be Blazing Shoal Infect.
There were still quite a few bans in that format - no skullclamp, no dark depths, no thopter combo, no mental misstep, no ancestral vision, treasure cruise, no deathrite shaman (wasn't printed yet), no abrupt decay, no stoneforge mystic, no jace, etc etc.
Blazing Shoal infect was more of a metagame call since it was very strong against a 12-post heavy field, which was a deck with virtually no removal maindeck. It was not by any means a definitive best deck. It's actually relatively "meh" when you include a full no-banlist format.
In my local area the topic of a "Modern tournament without the ban list" is being discussed. If you had the opportunity to play in this, what would you play?
It would be a scary field to play in! What would you be sleeving up?
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
I tested out UR delver and it sucked. Even with ponders/preordains/mental misstep, it couldn't beat down consistently. I scrapped it.
Against that pod deck I used merfolks mimicking legacy with mental misstep and disrupting shoal;
game 1, I lost to the combo
game 2, I overwhelmed quickly 8 9/9s
game 3, I lost to finks lifegain and I didn't have spreading seas to close the deal so he chumped all day...
So lessons learned:
- no-ban modern is not like legacy, creatures and blocking matters more than I thought.
- mental misstep was not as useful as I thought. It dealt with 2 paths to exile but most of the time it didn't do much.
- combos that can be easily enabled would probably do better
Personally I am rebuilding birthing pod and grixis twin with the ponders/preordain.
I think pod with the proper tools can deal with anything while also containing 3 creature combos. In addition, pod using outs and cascade creatures is quite strong.
Twin will be the default against other decks.
I personally want to build stoneforge taxes as it nerfs any opposing comboes while allowing early batterskull.
RETIRED - GAME SUCKS
Modern:
UUUMerfolksUUU
RGoblinsR
Ad Nauseam
BR 8 Racks RB
WUB Mill BUW
Legacy:
XOps! All splels! X
What I think of MaRo
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
RETIRED - GAME SUCKS
Modern:
UUUMerfolksUUU
RGoblinsR
Ad Nauseam
BR 8 Racks RB
WUB Mill BUW
Legacy:
XOps! All splels! X
What I think of MaRo
I commend them for doing the tournament but I wish they actually played all decks against each other instead.
RETIRED - GAME SUCKS
Modern:
UUUMerfolksUUU
RGoblinsR
Ad Nauseam
BR 8 Racks RB
WUB Mill BUW
Legacy:
XOps! All splels! X
What I think of MaRo
UB Wight Phantasm
RB Burn
UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
R Burn
CG-Post
It's actually not as powerful as you would think. Not saying it should be unbanned or anything, but in any games I've played in no-ban modern, Skullclamp has been a pretty fair card to be honest. In a format like this, grinding out games with incremental card-advantage cards like Skullclamp isn't that game-breaking. Keep in mind, it's a big tempo loss to keep sacrificing your creatures, so the only really busted application to use this is when you can use it in a deck like Affinity or Elves to combo out.
Another thing worth mentioning is that there would be a LOT of artifact hate in a format like this. You pretty much have to have tons of artifact hate since decks like Affinity, Eggs, and others are hypothetically huge parts of it, not to mention more fair decks like Stoneblade and thopter-sword decks being relevant.
I would hope nobody would play Eggs, I'd rather lose to anything else.
It would basically be like playing Legacy Jund but with more painful mana.
This makes me sad to hear, I was so certain that it would be a blast to play! I would have thought that all of those cheap/free spells and Treasure Cruise would be phenomenal!
I've heard that in these tournaments Clamp-Affinity is usually a force to be reckoned with.
Turn 1 Blood Moons? That makes me feel sick in a format without Force of Will.
Not really - formats like these actually promote interactivity since they allow control decks to thrive. Old-extended had some very strong interactive decks like Faeries (often mono-blue) and Tezzerator variants being big as tools that beat up on the combo-heavy meta. Also, there would be a lot more tools to be able to handle combo decks, whether it's a GSZ toolbox, or legal Mental Misstep, or more decks simply maindecking spell pierce with a strong tempo game.
Combo is obviously going to be quite relevant, but I think you would have a LOT of archetypes represented. I honestly think you could have a very diverse meta - all these decks could easily be viable. The supposedly degenerate decks all have viable hate in the format, you don't NEED to have force of will here in my honest opinion. I found in a good amount of testing that people really underestimate the power of hex-depths. Most of the delver-style decks simply aren't equipped to deal with Marit Lage and end up losing to it sooner or later. Similarly, this combo often out-races many of the other combos in the format like Infect, and at times, even storm (especially when backed with a bit of disruption).
Most combo decks in the format get stomped by the tempo decks, regardless of the degenerate cards they do or don't have available to them. Similarly, the tempo decks get stomped by decks like 12post or Jund (especially with punishing fire). Aggro kind of falls in the middle depending on what they're playing vs.
You would likely get lots of combo variants - storm, twin, eggs, dark depths, hypergenesis, Scapeshift, Jeskai Ascendancy, infect.
You would get aggro-combo variants - Affinity, Elves, Dredge, Gx toolbox combos (melira, spike feeder, Knight of the Reliquary combos with dark depths)
You would get pure-aggro decks - namely zoo variants & burn variants
You would get tempo / control variants - Faeries, Delver cruise, stoneblade, merfolk, hatebears, death and taxes
You would probably get straight midrange decks - Jund, Junk, etc
You would probably get some hard control decks - Tezzerator, Next Level Blue, Stoneblade (more controlling versions), Miracles, Counter-Top
You would get ramp variants, most likely all 12post decks, as well as other bigger mana decks like all-in-red.
Commander
U Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
RG Zilortha, Strength Incarnate
WB Amalia Benavides Aguirre
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/672035-lanterns-modified-banlist-modern-tournament?page=2
Lantern is trying to fire one up.
Speaking of Lantern... I would definitely play Lantern. Would love to test it in a gauntlet of the most "broken" decks.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
MM doesn't stop Blighted Agent or Shoal.
Can even Turn 2 Reality Smasher with Chrome Mox.
Turn 1 - Two Mimics with Chrome Mox
Turn 2 - Lay another Sol land - Reality SMASHER!!!
And I still have an extra card in hand.
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
Except that formats like Vintage and Legacy actually have tools for control to interact early in the game. Modern doesn't have any of this. There is no reliable way for control to deal with combo spells before Turn 2. You basically need Force of Will in the format to prevent fast combo from taking over that format. Nor is there any effective way to deal with broken lands. Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge are vastly inferior compared to Wasteland and Strip Mine.
And what kind of skewed testing have you done exactly? Aggro being able to survive in a Turn-2 kill format? It simply won't happen. In such a format aggro would not even be represented as there would be no point in competing on fair level with such quick combo kills.
I don't see at all how you believe that Zoo, Burn, Junk, Junk, Tezzerator, Stoneblade, and 12post would even survive in this format.
That deck is so ridiculously inconsistent... You could win turn 2, or you could whiff for 5 turns...
RETIRED - GAME SUCKS
Modern:
UUUMerfolksUUU
RGoblinsR
Ad Nauseam
BR 8 Racks RB
WUB Mill BUW
Legacy:
XOps! All splels! X
What I think of MaRo
There were still quite a few bans in that format - no skullclamp, no dark depths, no thopter combo, no mental misstep, no ancestral vision, treasure cruise, no deathrite shaman (wasn't printed yet), no abrupt decay, no stoneforge mystic, no jace, etc etc.
Blazing Shoal infect was more of a metagame call since it was very strong against a 12-post heavy field, which was a deck with virtually no removal maindeck. It was not by any means a definitive best deck. It's actually relatively "meh" when you include a full no-banlist format.