I don't understand why people are using this card for its ultimate. A lot of planewalkers will basically win you the game on the spot if you can ultimate them, but let's be honest, how often does that actually happen? I get that the looting is good but is jamming Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Nahiri, the Harbinger into any random deck really a viable strategy?
Because her ultimate ticks up so fast and basically reads for the opponent "deal with me in your next two turns or you lose". Her +1 is good, but for a four mana investment is just ok I think (provides a way to put Emmy back in your deck if you draw her, but would be twice as good if you drew and then discarded.
Her -2 is also good, but is somewhat conditional.
Overall none of her abilities are bad and she just ultimates so much faster than any other walker. From the games I've seen with the deck and streams I've also watched it doesn't seem uncommon for her to ultimate every 2-4 games easily. Plus it provides an alternate wincon for minimal card investment to a deck (UWR) that sometimes has trouble closing game out if it doesn't draw into bolts + snaps or has its man lands dealt with.
She is a must answer card and that is why she is so powerful in my opinion.
I've really liked her from the start when she was spoiled. However if her rise in popularity continues it makes me wonder how modern sideboards will adjust to fight her.
Fog might be the most interesting one mana answer to her ultimate, since most of the time your opponent will -8 her when she's at 8 loyalty and all you really have to do is survive that combat step. Other options include Trickbind which uncounterably counters her ability, Hallowed Moonlight is another answer that also stops CoCo/persist shenanigans. Then there is Slaughter Games and/or Infinite Obliteration that can remove Emrakul from the deck before Nahiri can bring her in.
I've really liked her from the start when she was spoiled. However if her rise in popularity continues it makes me wonder how modern sideboards will adjust to fight her.
Fog might be the most interesting one mana answer to her ultimate, since most of the time your opponent will -8 her when she's at 8 loyalty and all you really have to do is survive that combat step. Other options include Trickbind which uncounterably counters her ability, Hallowed Moonlight is another answer that also stops CoCo/persist shenanigans. Then there is Slaughter Games and/or Infinite Obliteration that can remove Emrakul from the deck before Nahiri can bring her in.
I'm not sure that nahiri warrents dedicated hate, but regardless, this right here gives me hopes for modern becoming a true "rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock" format between midrange, combo, aggro, control, and miscellaneous. I am fine with nahiri jeskai (or mardu) being hateable: people tune their boards to beat nahiri, become weaker to tron or company or aggro or whatever, get pushed out or readjust, and the cycle continues. I think nahiri could add jeskai to the tier 1 carousel, and that is sweet.
With cards like Tormenting Voice, Nahiri, Faithless Looting, Fiery Temper, the new Alms of the Vein, and some sort of suite of lightning bolts, silver bullets and the like, there is a lot of fun synergy here...
Unsure of the creature base myself, as to quantities and make up... Do we use typical burn creature base (Guide, Swiftspear, Eidolon), which is a consisent and known component (if boring in this new shell) or do we forge something new? Been working on this idea in my head lately.
I've really liked her from the start when she was spoiled. However if her rise in popularity continues it makes me wonder how modern sideboards will adjust to fight her.
Fog might be the most interesting one mana answer to her ultimate, since most of the time your opponent will -8 her when she's at 8 loyalty and all you really have to do is survive that combat step. Other options include Trickbind which uncounterably counters her ability, Hallowed Moonlight is another answer that also stops CoCo/persist shenanigans. Then there is Slaughter Games and/or Infinite Obliteration that can remove Emrakul from the deck before Nahiri can bring her in.
I don't think Fog is the card you're looking for. The damage by Emrakul isn't necessarily the death knell. It's that pesky Annihilator 6 that often wins the game.Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Every other card on your list would work though. Personally I'm surprised Hallowed Moonlight isn't more played as it just destroys all of the Collected Company, Grishoalbrand and Living End decks
I would not try to sideboard anything that stops the attack or the search or whatever. Remember they've been looting for 3 turns and are untapped, and it's probably a control deck.
I'm expecting pithing needles for days. My 16 man FNM had 4 nahiri decks (3 chord, 1 jeskai) and everyone was whining about it
isn't necessarily the death knell. It's that pesky Annihilator 6 that often wins the game.Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Every other card on your list would work though. Personally I'm surprised Hallowed Moonlight isn't more played as it just destroys all of the Collected Company, Grishoalbrand and Living End decks
Hoogland's UWR list ran one Hallowed Moonlight. It's kind of hit or miss, but rarely terrible. I tested a bit with that version.
@Pokken - Yes, I can foresee an uptick in Pithing Needle. It's rarely a dead card anyway against certain decks.
*I posted this in the Prices thread, but I want to reiterate if someone is searching for Nahiri, the Harbinger, you probably shouldn't have waited for this weekend. It has seen some camera time. It could spike to $35, which I don't think will be a long-term number.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
isn't necessarily the death knell. It's that pesky Annihilator 6 that often wins the game.Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Every other card on your list would work though. Personally I'm surprised Hallowed Moonlight isn't more played as it just destroys all of the Collected Company, Grishoalbrand and Living End decks
Hoogland's UWR list ran one Hallowed Moonlight. It's kind of hit or miss, but rarely terrible. I tested a bit with that version.
@Pokken - Yes, I can foresee an uptick in Pithing Needle. It's rarely a dead card anyway against certain decks.
*I posted this in the Prices thread, but I want to reiterate if someone is searching for Nahiri, the Harbinger, you probably shouldn't have waited for this weekend. It has seen some camera time. It could spike to $35, which I don't think will be a long-term number.
I think long term she will be $30 plus since she slots into RG scapeshift, mardu, kiki chord, and Jeskai very well. She will be around for awhile.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Yeah, it's very possible that I'm underestimating the long-term price.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
His list is pretty bad. The Anticipates show a lack of understanding of how this deck works. Any number of AV or Serum Visions would be vastly superior to Anticipate.
People are in general playing not enough card draw spells with Nahiri in my opinion. Gerry T's list with 4 AV is the closest I've seen, but I believe some number of Wall of Omens or Think Twice to be right. It's a control deck, not a combo deck, and it wants to be drawing cards not cantripping.
People are in general playing not enough card draw spells with Nahiri in my opinion. Gerry T's list with 4 AV is the closest I've seen, but I believe some number of Wall of Omens or Think Twice to be right. It's a control deck, not a combo deck, and it wants to be drawing cards not cantripping.
I think cantripping is alright if it's a Serum Visions because you are setting up future draws. Anticipate is silly. I don't think that Think Twice is particularly playable in these builds either, but who knows.
People are in general playing not enough card draw spells with Nahiri in my opinion. Gerry T's list with 4 AV is the closest I've seen, but I believe some number of Wall of Omens or Think Twice to be right. It's a control deck, not a combo deck, and it wants to be drawing cards not cantripping.
I think cantripping is alright if it's a Serum Visions because you are setting up future draws. Anticipate is silly. I don't think that Think Twice is particularly playable in these builds either, but who knows.
These are my thoughts exactly. Serum Visions is great because of Cantrip+Filtering. We all know that control decks can struggle with finding the correct answers at any given time. Serum Visions helps you find the "right half" of the deck much faster and easier than we can do with raw card advantage in modern. Now I do think that it's the only cantrip these Uxx decks should be playing. SV+AV+Nahiri's +1 makes for a deck that can really power through it's own cards once you get into the late game and beyond.
Now the challenge is figuring out the right balance between SV and AV. Currently I think that Uxx control should be playing more SVs than AVs, but that is my opinion.
The beauty is that you can build around both AV and SV.
I'm thinking about a split of 4 AV 2 SV to start and to see where the matchups take me from there. I think the splits can largely be dependent on matchups. Against Tron I prefer more SV against control I prefer more AV. Builds are matchup dependent.
Keep that in mind. Build with who you expect to play in mind!
The beauty is that you can build around both AV and SV.
I'm thinking about a split of 4 AV 2 SV to start and to see where the matchups take me from there. I think the splits can largely be dependent on matchups. Against Tron I prefer more SV against control I prefer more AV. Builds are matchup dependent.
Keep that in mind. Build with who you expect to play in mind!
That's true but I still think in grindy control deck AV is better.
in certain match-ups the raw cards + time weighted is less effective than the quick cantrip, card selection. Sometimes you don't need to grind. For example against Affinity if you have a couple bolts and a path in your top 9-10 cards you will usually win fairly easily. So in that case the effect of SV is likely better because they aren't grinding you out. Against a deck like Jund the raw card count of AV is so much better because it can defeat their one for one discard/removal strategy in conjunction with Snapcaster.
His list is pretty bad. The Anticipates show a lack of understanding of how this deck works. Any number of AV or Serum Visions would be vastly superior to Anticipate.
Heavily disagree. Visions is just okay in control lists because they are sorcery speed. Anticipate is better than think twice and faster at finding nahiri than ancestral is.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
His list is pretty bad. The Anticipates show a lack of understanding of how this deck works. Any number of AV or Serum Visions would be vastly superior to Anticipate.
Heavily disagree. Visions is just okay in control lists because they are sorcery speed. Anticipate is better than think twice and faster at finding nahiri than ancestral is.
Being sorcery speed has never made Serum Visions "just ok" in control decks, nor combo decks. Twin typically ran 4 copies of Serum Visions (very rarely ran Anticipate, never ran TT) it was good preboard with combo and post board without combo. Anticipate cannot set up future draws and sees just as many cards as SV.
His list is pretty bad. The Anticipates show a lack of understanding of how this deck works. Any number of AV or Serum Visions would be vastly superior to Anticipate.
Heavily disagree. Visions is just okay in control lists because they are sorcery speed. Anticipate is better than think twice and faster at finding nahiri than ancestral is.
Being sorcery speed has never made Serum Visions "just ok" in control decks, nor combo decks. Twin typically ran 4 copies of Serum Visions (very rarely ran Anticipate, never ran TT) it was good preboard with combo and post board without combo. Anticipate cannot set up future draws and sees just as many cards as SV.
Twin is not a control deck. It's a combo deck that played a tempo game. Jeskai needs to leave up mana to interact with their opponent until they can deploy Nahiri. That said playing a style where you don't want to tap out is fine and it has results.
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Serums Visions is not particularly good in control, cantrip spells never were really good in control. Cantrip spells are good for faster decks (tempo and combo) that needs to set up their draws and so card selection is important to them. In slower decks (control, midrange) card draw is better and as that AV is better in Jeskai control than Serums Visions, you need card advantage not card selection.
Serums Visions is not particularly good in control, cantrip spells never were really good in control. Cantrip spells are good for faster decks (tempo and combo) that needs to set up their draws and so card selection is important to them. In slower decks (control, midrange) card draw is better and as that AV is better in Jeskai control than Serums Visions, you need card advantage not card selection.
Selection is fine. Watch Legacy sometime.
I've been playing Legacy for several years so I know how things works there but this is Modern not Legacy and we don't have Brainstorm or Ponder. SV is fine against control, I didn't say it isn't but it's not nearly as good in control as it is in combo decks. If I had to choose between AV and SV in a control I would go with AV any day but it's I think the best line is to play some mix of them both.
I don't disagree with that. I was disagreeing that you "need" a lot of card draw. Cantrips can be more than fine, if Ponder and Preordain were legal they would be heavily played in Control.
I don't believe there's one right way to build it. The differences you see with av,sv,think twice, and anticipate most likely boil down to decisions based on playstyle.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Because her ultimate ticks up so fast and basically reads for the opponent "deal with me in your next two turns or you lose". Her +1 is good, but for a four mana investment is just ok I think (provides a way to put Emmy back in your deck if you draw her, but would be twice as good if you drew and then discarded.
Her -2 is also good, but is somewhat conditional.
Overall none of her abilities are bad and she just ultimates so much faster than any other walker. From the games I've seen with the deck and streams I've also watched it doesn't seem uncommon for her to ultimate every 2-4 games easily. Plus it provides an alternate wincon for minimal card investment to a deck (UWR) that sometimes has trouble closing game out if it doesn't draw into bolts + snaps or has its man lands dealt with.
She is a must answer card and that is why she is so powerful in my opinion.
Onto the important thing: I can't find a shell where the deck doesn't ouright loses to TRON (or MongoNoSkillTron as I like to refer it to).
Fog might be the most interesting one mana answer to her ultimate, since most of the time your opponent will -8 her when she's at 8 loyalty and all you really have to do is survive that combat step. Other options include Trickbind which uncounterably counters her ability, Hallowed Moonlight is another answer that also stops CoCo/persist shenanigans. Then there is Slaughter Games and/or Infinite Obliteration that can remove Emrakul from the deck before Nahiri can bring her in.
I'm not sure that nahiri warrents dedicated hate, but regardless, this right here gives me hopes for modern becoming a true "rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock" format between midrange, combo, aggro, control, and miscellaneous. I am fine with nahiri jeskai (or mardu) being hateable: people tune their boards to beat nahiri, become weaker to tron or company or aggro or whatever, get pushed out or readjust, and the cycle continues. I think nahiri could add jeskai to the tier 1 carousel, and that is sweet.
With cards like Tormenting Voice, Nahiri, Faithless Looting, Fiery Temper, the new Alms of the Vein, and some sort of suite of lightning bolts, silver bullets and the like, there is a lot of fun synergy here...
Unsure of the creature base myself, as to quantities and make up... Do we use typical burn creature base (Guide, Swiftspear, Eidolon), which is a consisent and known component (if boring in this new shell) or do we forge something new? Been working on this idea in my head lately.
I don't think Fog is the card you're looking for. The damage by Emrakul isn't necessarily the death knell. It's that pesky Annihilator 6 that often wins the game.Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Every other card on your list would work though. Personally I'm surprised Hallowed Moonlight isn't more played as it just destroys all of the Collected Company, Grishoalbrand and Living End decks
I'm expecting pithing needles for days. My 16 man FNM had 4 nahiri decks (3 chord, 1 jeskai) and everyone was whining about it
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Hoogland's UWR list ran one Hallowed Moonlight. It's kind of hit or miss, but rarely terrible. I tested a bit with that version.
@Pokken - Yes, I can foresee an uptick in Pithing Needle. It's rarely a dead card anyway against certain decks.
*I posted this in the Prices thread, but I want to reiterate if someone is searching for Nahiri, the Harbinger, you probably shouldn't have waited for this weekend. It has seen some camera time. It could spike to $35, which I don't think will be a long-term number.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I think long term she will be $30 plus since she slots into RG scapeshift, mardu, kiki chord, and Jeskai very well. She will be around for awhile.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)http://articles.mtgcardmarket.com/nahiri-emrakul-in-modern/
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
His list is pretty bad. The Anticipates show a lack of understanding of how this deck works. Any number of AV or Serum Visions would be vastly superior to Anticipate.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I think cantripping is alright if it's a Serum Visions because you are setting up future draws. Anticipate is silly. I don't think that Think Twice is particularly playable in these builds either, but who knows.
These are my thoughts exactly. Serum Visions is great because of Cantrip+Filtering. We all know that control decks can struggle with finding the correct answers at any given time. Serum Visions helps you find the "right half" of the deck much faster and easier than we can do with raw card advantage in modern. Now I do think that it's the only cantrip these Uxx decks should be playing. SV+AV+Nahiri's +1 makes for a deck that can really power through it's own cards once you get into the late game and beyond.
Now the challenge is figuring out the right balance between SV and AV. Currently I think that Uxx control should be playing more SVs than AVs, but that is my opinion.
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I'm thinking about a split of 4 AV 2 SV to start and to see where the matchups take me from there. I think the splits can largely be dependent on matchups. Against Tron I prefer more SV against control I prefer more AV. Builds are matchup dependent.
Keep that in mind. Build with who you expect to play in mind!
in certain match-ups the raw cards + time weighted is less effective than the quick cantrip, card selection. Sometimes you don't need to grind. For example against Affinity if you have a couple bolts and a path in your top 9-10 cards you will usually win fairly easily. So in that case the effect of SV is likely better because they aren't grinding you out. Against a deck like Jund the raw card count of AV is so much better because it can defeat their one for one discard/removal strategy in conjunction with Snapcaster.
Heavily disagree. Visions is just okay in control lists because they are sorcery speed. Anticipate is better than think twice and faster at finding nahiri than ancestral is.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Being sorcery speed has never made Serum Visions "just ok" in control decks, nor combo decks. Twin typically ran 4 copies of Serum Visions (very rarely ran Anticipate, never ran TT) it was good preboard with combo and post board without combo. Anticipate cannot set up future draws and sees just as many cards as SV.
Twin is not a control deck. It's a combo deck that played a tempo game. Jeskai needs to leave up mana to interact with their opponent until they can deploy Nahiri. That said playing a style where you don't want to tap out is fine and it has results.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Selection is fine. Watch Legacy sometime.
I don't disagree with that. I was disagreeing that you "need" a lot of card draw. Cantrips can be more than fine, if Ponder and Preordain were legal they would be heavily played in Control.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero