I do have to ask: why are people saying Jeskai Control needs another backup wincon? Colonnades + Burn + Snapcasters have traditionally been good enough to get the job done on their own; needling Nahiri hardly solves your problems.
I would have said that if anything jeskai is slightly advantaged; lots of people think Jund has a great fish matchup for a similar reason (tons of spot removal and such) but it does not play out like that in practice. When people say things like "best matchup" in the same statement as decks like merfolk I get titchy because I have played a huge variety of decks and never felt like merfolk was a free win (even with affinity!).
Note, this has gotten kind of off-topic, but the point I was making with Merfolk is that the Jeskai decks look heavily metagamed around a particular type of aggro today, and I'm not sure they are flexible enough to handle the metagame as it evolves.
If you start with 4 snaps/4 bolts/4 path/3 helices/1 electrolyze as your core you're pretty committed to a gameplan.
Note: The most appropriate comparison in terms of flexibility is probably Jund, which has cards like IoK/Thoughtseize/Abrupt Decay/Maelstrom pulse to allow them to deal with whatever comes.
Jeskai decks are made to excel against creatures, and if they choose to run AV they have good Jund match-ups. Now they just have to protect Nahiri a couple turns, which this type of deck is best at doing. And as I already said Merfolk isn't an "easy win", it's one of the best matchups for Jeskai but you still lose something approching 40% of them.
Honestly I think Nahiri is waaaay over hyped right now. She's only in the deck she's in because she presents a reliable endgame, which is something the deck sorely needs. Its pretty new tech and not on folk's radar. Does anybody have the day one deck numbers? 3 Jeskai control decks made day two. How many started? So she made an impact when no one was watching for her. Let's see how she does next weekend. I predict an uptick in the number of negates being played...
I think Nahiri might suffer from being too good. Where LotV is an enabler, NtH is the total win con. Eh, pithing needle is a thing.
I heavily disagree. Control can win the old fashion way through colonnade/snap bolt beats. Keep in mind that they have many ways to answer a resolved needle.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
I do have to ask: why are people saying Jeskai Control needs another backup wincon? Colonnades + Burn + Snapcasters have traditionally been good enough to get the job done on their own; needling Nahiri hardly solves your problems.
It is like twin. Dilute your deck enough to beat the combo and you will lose to plain old abc magic of card advantage and normal battle damage.
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
My 3rd and 4th copy came in the mail today. Gonna see how she runs tonight in this list. Looking forward to it!
Orders were placed last Monday on TCG Player, and in retrospect, $18.50/ea feels like a steal now...
I got mine last week for $23/each and also feeling decent about it. I like the list, though I also like more than 1 Cryptic.
What to cut?
From your list? I'm not sure. I'm not a huge fan of Electrolyze, but many lists are running some so that's not necessarily it. Personally I'm running 3 path main and the 4th in the side.
Pffft, everyone talking about Jeskai. Mardu, Mardu is where Nahiri will will really shine. I'm playing it with Bitterblossom, lingering souls and monastery mentor. That is a meat shield win con. Back up by a ton of disruption, removal and access to quality lifegain. Hold on to your knickers...
Pffft, everyone talking about Jeskai. Mardu, Mardu is where Nahiri will will really shine. I'm playing it with Bitterblossom, lingering souls and monastery mentor. That is a meat shield win con. Back up by a ton of disruption, removal and access to quality lifegain. Hold on to your knickers...
Why on earth would you ever want to discard lingering...souls...
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EDH:ShatterStax, Only The Strong Survive
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
Not gunna lie but a local pro tour player was on the jeskai list last night for an event. I was on a gifts variant. Everyones focusing on having her as a main win con but without any real secondary.
Pffft, everyone talking about Jeskai. Mardu, Mardu is where Nahiri will will really shine. I'm playing it with Bitterblossom, lingering souls and monastery mentor. That is a meat shield win con. Back up by a ton of disruption, removal and access to quality lifegain. Hold on to your knickers...
Why on earth would you ever want to discard lingering...souls...
It's not that you exactly want this but if you do you still get 2 1/1 flying tokens so you don't lose everything if you do so. I mean it's not that bad if you have to discard them but of course it's better to play it from your hand and then flashback and get full value out of it.
Pffft, everyone talking about Jeskai. Mardu, Mardu is where Nahiri will will really shine. I'm playing it with Bitterblossom, lingering souls and monastery mentor. That is a meat shield win con. Back up by a ton of disruption, removal and access to quality lifegain. Hold on to your knickers...
Why on earth would you ever want to discard lingering...souls...
It's not that you exactly want this but if you do you still get 2 1/1 flying tokens so you don't lose everything if you do so. I mean it's not that bad if you have to discard them but of course it's better to play it from your hand and then flashback and get full value out of it.
I think they may have been kidding, lol.
I was...it's the same principle behind LotV. A "value" discard.
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EDH:ShatterStax, Only The Strong Survive
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
Went 2-1-1 with my Jeskai list last night. Probably could have 4-0d with better luck and a faster round 1 opponent.
Round 1: 1-1-1 to Mardu Nahiri. Lingering Souls is effective at stalling and keeping my Nahiri down, but he bricked on drawing his. Also ran Liliana, which was annoying to deal with. I had the upper hand all game 3 and he Slaughter Games'd my Emrakul turn 4 of Extra Turns while I was about to untap with Nahiri on 8. He was at 12 life with an empty board, I was at 18. With several Bolts and Helix in the GY, getting a Snap could have sealed the deal, but I would have needed more than the remaining 1 turn...
Round 2: 2-1 to a BG sacrifice deck. Visera Seer, Blood Artist, and a bunch of Undying creatures. Loss in game 2 came from an unexpected resolved Choke. Won both others with Emrakul and killing creatures.
Round 3: 1-2 to Merfolk. Definitely not a free win by any means, and requires you draw removal and not counterspells. Game 1, I Nahiri quickly and win. Game 2, I mulligan to 6 and don't have the right answers and lose to 2 lords, a mutavault and another merfolk. Game 3 I have to mull to 5, but start with 2 lands, 2 bolts, and a helix. Almost get there because I draw enough removal for his creatures, but he grinds Mutavailt beats for 6-7 turns, doing nothing else while I brick on lands. If I drew any other removal or a 6th land to activate Colonnade, I probably would have won.
Round 3: 2-1 to Affinity. First game lost convincingly after keeping a mediocre hand not knowing what he's on. Games 2 and 3 got extremely lucky with turn 2 Stony Silence, but my hands were extremely good either way.
Interesting deck. Out of the 6 games I won, only 3 of them were with Nahiri/Emrakul, but it was relatively quick and effective once cast. Still not as good as Twin, but better than I thought it would be. I'll probably be playing her for the foreseeable future.
As far as the Mardu Nahiri list, it definitely has merits. I don't know about the Mentor idea, but Souls + discard + Liliana + manlands do quite a bit to stall and protect Nahiri. He told me later he was also running 2 main board Damnation in addition to his playsets of Bolt and Helix. I don't know how I would feel not running counterspells, but the discard + tokens are certainly difficult for many decks to deal with.
It's hard to envision why the Mardu list would be better than the Jeskai list. Jeskai has more game against midrange and Tron, while Mardu is better against aggro. Aggro has really been in the dumpster as of late.
Mardu does give you access to Slaughter Games, which is useful for fighting Scapeshift and in the mirror.
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These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
It's hard to envision why the Mardu list would be better than the Jeskai list. Jeskai has more game against midrange and Tron, while Mardu is better against aggro. Aggro has really been in the dumpster as of late.
Mardu does give you access to Slaughter Games, which is useful for fighting Scapeshift and in the mirror.
Not that I'm promoting either but mardu does have lingering souls which is phenomenal in midrange MU. Both lists can run stony silence, though to be honest I've never actually used it against Tron. Kommand+fulminator is a thing Mardu has as well...in any case both seem viable though Jeskai is certainly more popular.
Also Liliana of the Veil is certainly a plus for Mardu
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EDH:ShatterStax, Only The Strong Survive
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
FWIW and completely anecdotal but I played against Jeskai twice last night and won both times with Mardu...Nahiri ult for 3/4 of those games. Hand disruption and Liliana line up really well against Jeskai counterspells. Lingering souls is a decent clock that people don't really think about until the last few points of burn come through.
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EDH:ShatterStax, Only The Strong Survive
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
Playing them against each other has nothing to do with which one of them is better.
The threats problem is why I splashed 1 green source and added townships (still testing).
Cubetutor Link
Jeskai decks are made to excel against creatures, and if they choose to run AV they have good Jund match-ups. Now they just have to protect Nahiri a couple turns, which this type of deck is best at doing. And as I already said Merfolk isn't an "easy win", it's one of the best matchups for Jeskai but you still lose something approching 40% of them.
I heavily disagree. Control can win the old fashion way through colonnade/snap bolt beats. Keep in mind that they have many ways to answer a resolved needle.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Orders were placed last Monday on TCG Player, and in retrospect, $18.50/ea feels like a steal now...
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
What to cut?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
It is like twin. Dilute your deck enough to beat the combo and you will lose to plain old abc magic of card advantage and normal battle damage.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Why on earth would you ever want to discard lingering...souls...
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
Modern: Fish, JUND/Junk
--------
RIP Twin
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/698772-the-new-mardu-with-nahiri
I think they may have been kidding, lol.
I was...it's the same principle behind LotV. A "value" discard.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
Modern: Fish, JUND/Junk
--------
RIP Twin
Round 1: 1-1-1 to Mardu Nahiri. Lingering Souls is effective at stalling and keeping my Nahiri down, but he bricked on drawing his. Also ran Liliana, which was annoying to deal with. I had the upper hand all game 3 and he Slaughter Games'd my Emrakul turn 4 of Extra Turns while I was about to untap with Nahiri on 8. He was at 12 life with an empty board, I was at 18. With several Bolts and Helix in the GY, getting a Snap could have sealed the deal, but I would have needed more than the remaining 1 turn...
Round 2: 2-1 to a BG sacrifice deck. Visera Seer, Blood Artist, and a bunch of Undying creatures. Loss in game 2 came from an unexpected resolved Choke. Won both others with Emrakul and killing creatures.
Round 3: 1-2 to Merfolk. Definitely not a free win by any means, and requires you draw removal and not counterspells. Game 1, I Nahiri quickly and win. Game 2, I mulligan to 6 and don't have the right answers and lose to 2 lords, a mutavault and another merfolk. Game 3 I have to mull to 5, but start with 2 lands, 2 bolts, and a helix. Almost get there because I draw enough removal for his creatures, but he grinds Mutavailt beats for 6-7 turns, doing nothing else while I brick on lands. If I drew any other removal or a 6th land to activate Colonnade, I probably would have won.
Round 3: 2-1 to Affinity. First game lost convincingly after keeping a mediocre hand not knowing what he's on. Games 2 and 3 got extremely lucky with turn 2 Stony Silence, but my hands were extremely good either way.
Interesting deck. Out of the 6 games I won, only 3 of them were with Nahiri/Emrakul, but it was relatively quick and effective once cast. Still not as good as Twin, but better than I thought it would be. I'll probably be playing her for the foreseeable future.
As far as the Mardu Nahiri list, it definitely has merits. I don't know about the Mentor idea, but Souls + discard + Liliana + manlands do quite a bit to stall and protect Nahiri. He told me later he was also running 2 main board Damnation in addition to his playsets of Bolt and Helix. I don't know how I would feel not running counterspells, but the discard + tokens are certainly difficult for many decks to deal with.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Mardu does give you access to Slaughter Games, which is useful for fighting Scapeshift and in the mirror.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Not that I'm promoting either but mardu does have lingering souls which is phenomenal in midrange MU. Both lists can run stony silence, though to be honest I've never actually used it against Tron. Kommand+fulminator is a thing Mardu has as well...in any case both seem viable though Jeskai is certainly more popular.
Also Liliana of the Veil is certainly a plus for Mardu
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
Modern: Fish, JUND/Junk
--------
RIP Twin
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
Modern: Fish, JUND/Junk
--------
RIP Twin
The threats problem is why I splashed 1 green source and added townships (still testing).