I'm really not convinced a 2 mana, Sorcery speed Disfigure will help you much against aggro.
Seems just SOOO much worse.
2 mana, a lot more narrow Duress seems not super hype either, but... ok I guess.
And draining 2 for a card or for 2 is just really bad and only useful in very niche cases. :/
I guess it becomes ok if you escalate it actually hit with the Duress mode, making it just a sorcery speed disfigure and narrower Duress.
But that still seems not overly amazing.
Perhaps the flexibility will make it worth it though.
Do you know what's worse than a 2 mana sorcery speed duress? A 3 mana instant that shocks and does raven's crime. Super unplayable. It's strictly a worse blightning and that doesn't even see play. I remember when you guys said that when Kolaghan's command was spoiled and I was laughing as a I bought a playset for $4. Evaluating a versatile card for one of it's abilities is a trap. I feel like people will fall into the trap again by saying that new liliana isn't very good when she is.
I feel like the real value in this card is abusing the discard escalate "cost." Decks that run things like bloodghast, lingering souls, life from the loam, or even ensnaring bridge will be able to abuse the heck out of this card. Not to mention graveyard combo decks like Goryo's Vengeance decks. There is a lot of potential synergy with this downside of this card.
It costs 2 mana, and it is easily splashable. Definitely versatile in it's modes.
Even if you aren't abusing the discard cost, the modes make it easy to 2-for-1 in many matchups early game. Late game it will be less relevant, but still useful.
Will not be so good against control decks with lots of counterspells. Getting an escalated spell remanded will hurt a lot.
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For collective brutality, what does it replace? Is it out right better than any single card currently being played? I think the current answer is no. Versatility is amazing. We see it work often. K command and A command are two recent examples. CB I can only really see being relevant in a deck that can abuse the discard. Whether that is madness or delirium or loam/pox/vines variants or whatever. Discard is a rough drawback when your deck isn't tuned entirely for it. Further, the limited scope that CB brings makes the options available pretty meh. The discard is suboptimal, only hitting instants and sorceries. The removal is suboptimal hitting T2 or less. And the drain is suboptimal because it doesn't hit walkers. Having 3 suboptimal abilities on a single card doesn't make it an optimal card. I feel like people are judging this like a planeswalker but planeswalkers are permanents. Lets face it, almost every planeswalker's are, for the single abilities, suboptimal. Take LotV. Would you pay 3 mana for a card that read each player discards a card? How about 3 mana for a sac effect? They're not good alone. What makes them good is A they are together and B they are repeatable. CB is a one trick pony. It feels way to weak for modern.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
For collective brutality, what does it replace? Is it out right better than any single card currently being played? I think the current answer is no. Versatility is amazing. We see it work often. K command and A command are two recent examples. CB I can only really see being relevant in a deck that can abuse the discard. Whether that is madness or delirium or loam/pox/vines variants or whatever. Discard is a rough drawback when your deck isn't tuned entirely for it. Further, the limited scope that CB brings makes the options available pretty meh. The discard is suboptimal, only hitting instants and sorceries. The removal is suboptimal hitting T2 or less. And the drain is suboptimal because it doesn't hit walkers. Having 3 suboptimal abilities on a single card doesn't make it an optimal card. I feel like people are judging this like a planeswalker but planeswalkers are permanents. Lets face it, almost every planeswalker's are, for the single abilities, suboptimal. Take LotV. Would you pay 3 mana for a card that read each player discards a card? How about 3 mana for a sac effect? They're not good alone. What makes them good is A they are together and B they are repeatable. CB is a one trick pony. It feels way to weak for modern.
I really don't feel you need to 'abuse' the discard, I just think you need to retool your deck around it. For instance, we're talking about running it in faeries and in doing so we're looking to up our copies of cards that can clog up your hand but are still powerful - cards like Ancestral Vision and Vendilion Clique.
Isn't faeries a tempo style deck though? Aren't sorceries frowned upon in tempo based strategies?
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Off topic but since I see your association with the Gate Primer I have to ask: what is the name derived from? I like to think its from the '80s horror flick but never found out for certain. For reference: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093075/
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Isn't faeries a tempo style deck though? Aren't sorceries frowned upon in tempo based strategies?
Just because a deck is tempo based doesn't mean you can't use sorcery speed things - after all, Goyf and Delver are the two best tempo creatures of all time and they're both played during the main phase exclusively. It's the way your deck is built and the way you try to stay ahead of opponents that builds tempo - it just happens that instants make this easier than normal. Pitching an extra V-Clique to kill a Goblin Guide and drain 2 sounds like a pretty fine deal to me in many situations. If you also consider the new Liliana as a viable card then you see more synergy for the deck as those pitched faeries can come right back to hand.
Note: I'm not trying to say that these are ideal situations, merely that I think eventually they can be something and we don't really have any way to 'abuse' the synergies in the same way that something like Dredge would.
On the Collective Brutality discussion; I play a deck chalk full of cards I'd rather discard than cast, and can't wait to try this card. You almost never want to hard cast a Bloodghast or Gravecrawler, so quality discard outlets are a must. Even with a full complement of Lotleth Trolls and LotV, I can find myself with these cards stranded in hand, along with late game Thoughtseizes or Inquisition of Kozileks. CB looks like it could generate a lot of value for this deck, and any other deck that wants to selectively discard it's own cards. I can easily imagine dredge or Grishoalbrand running some number of CB to fight through hate while progressing their game plan.
I also really want to try out one or two Bedlam Reveler in Storm. It would be super janky, but the potential to draw three for RR is there, and looks like fun. The deck is already fringe and low tiered, so why not have some fun with it. Curious Homunculus also looks really fun for the deck. It's a strictly worse Goblin Electromancer for the deck, but like I said you've got to have some fun with lower tiered decks.
Not sure creatures was what I was talking about there. Of course creatures are primarily main phase but even then tempo does like flash on its creatures. I think the new Lilly is pretty janky. She makes life tough on T1 creatures but that isn't gonna keep her alive in a lot of MUs. Affinity, Zoo and Fish could care less about her abilities.
As to abusability, being sorcery speed kinda trashes any hope of that. Like I said before, its three suboptimal plays slapped on a sorcery speed card.Even if you do all three modes, it's still pretty meh. I would rather have a card with one of CB's abilities done optimally than the option to do three jobs half assed.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
In this situation, sure CB might be something you're looking for. If you can abuse the discard function, it is a better card. But really, how many decks are looking to do that?
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
In this situation, sure CB might be something you're looking for. If you can abuse the discard function, it is a better card. But really, how many decks are looking to do that?
Not many to be sure, but I could easily see a copy or two pop up in Jund, Azban, or other decks that run a medium to large suit of discard. Turning your late game Tseize into a Duress+spot removal or drain could be useful. For something like 8rack or maybe even Lantern I could see an argument for the card, helping you get hellbent to make full use of Ensnaring Bridge. It's going to be a niche card for sure, but I do think it has it's place in Modern. I really do wish that Escalate worked more like the Confluences from the recent commander decks. If only.
i'm in Temur mood atm and i'm testing Bedlam Reveler a bit, having 6 spells after delving for mandrills is not easy, but i think he can make a solid 1-2 off as a late game refill, even if you do pay 1RR or 2RR it's fine if you have no hand anyway
sometimes he brings up TC memories,ofc he's alot harder to cast than TC so not really comparable, but still the card is definately viable
I'm glad he plays almost as good as he looks as a 1-2 of. I mean, an unboltable prowess dude that ancestral recalls for RR seems pretty busted, so i'm not surprised. I'm sure it sometimes is a bit clunky, costs more, makes you discard when you don't want, etc, but still seems very very solid for RUG.
Isn't faeries a tempo style deck though? Aren't sorceries frowned upon in tempo based strategies?
It's a bit more accurate to call Faeries a midrange deck with control and tempo attributes.
Also sorcery-speed effects are employed when they're deemed to be a sufficient mix of low cost, high impact, and/or value generating. The idea that Faeries is an archetype that purely plays on the opponent's end step is somewhat of a trap mentality, Faeries will take advantage of any opening to turn the corner from control to beatdown back to control.
I se you have a lot of talk about collective brutalaty. All speculation is good, but I do not think it is very good.
As a budget magic player I have tryed to play duress and it is not very good. Often you would play it and you would se a 3 mana cost creature you needed to kill (goyf comes to mind). Also not being able to remove snapcaster mage is bad, as he will often buy back whatever you chose to discard.
The -2/-2 is not that impressive. It does not kill wild nacatel among other things.
Draining 2 life is not that impressive. The card gets better if you have something to gain from discarding. Take Inventory comes to mind.
I do not think a combined fisfigure and duress is that good.
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I have dyslexia, no I am not going to spell check for you, yes you have to live with the horrors of it.
I think the vast majority of decks that would consider CB would likely only play 1 or 2 main deck, if not religating it to the sideboard entirely. To me, that isn't a "good" card. Good is something that has a home in a couple of decks or could inspire its own. This is mediocre to playable in the right deck. May be there is something there with delirium or madness but that is a big maybe.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Re: Eldritch Evolution + Allosaurus Rider, I don't see any universe where a 4-for-1 is going to end up good for you. You lose the Allosaurus you sacrificed to EE, two cards from your hand, and if EE gets remanded, you're just out. You can get 5-for-1'd if they Terminate your Elesh Norn.
If youre refering to situation I described above, where you sac a Revilark for Elesh Norn, how are you getting 5-for-1'd when they terminate Elesh Norn?
5 cards - Allosaurus, the two cards you pitched to it, eldritch evolution, and the Elesh Norn - your opponent spent a terminate.
The Reveillark example is MUCH less of a blowout but still not great.
Ah ok I see where you were coming from now.
I have no intention of trying the Allosauras combo. I think this card will shine in Chord-like decks, not cause of an all in turn 1/2 combo, though I wouldnt be surprised if that deck put up some results once or twice.
I'm really not convinced a 2 mana, Sorcery speed Disfigure will help you much against aggro.
Seems just SOOO much worse.
2 mana, a lot more narrow Duress seems not super hype either, but... ok I guess.
And draining 2 for a card or for 2 is just really bad and only useful in very niche cases. :/
I guess it becomes ok if you escalate it actually hit with the Duress mode, making it just a sorcery speed disfigure and narrower Duress.
But that still seems not overly amazing.
Perhaps the flexibility will make it worth it though.
Do you know what's worse than a 2 mana sorcery speed duress? A 3 mana instant that shocks and does raven's crime. Super unplayable. It's strictly a worse blightning and that doesn't even see play. I remember when you guys said that when Kolaghan's command was spoiled and I was laughing as a I bought a playset for $4. Evaluating a versatile card for one of it's abilities is a trap. I feel like people will fall into the trap again by saying that new liliana isn't very good when she is.
And that's why Player Shock + Discard is one of the modes I use the least with Kolaghan's Command.
I initially thought Kolaghan's Command was better than Blightning because KC can actually hit creatures, and creatures with toughness 2 or less can be fairly good.
Admittedly, I'm currently thinking that Collective Brutality is maindeckable because I'm surprised how much I'm willing to discard to Liliana in BGx Midrange. Thus, I think people will discard a large variety of cards to their own Collective Brutality, so Escalating it is no obstacle, even in goodstuffs like BGx Midrange. And it's nice to have targeted discard that isn't dead late-game...that's also removal that isn't dead against many combo decks.
I'm really not convinced a 2 mana, Sorcery speed Disfigure will help you much against aggro.
Seems just SOOO much worse.
2 mana, a lot more narrow Duress seems not super hype either, but... ok I guess.
And draining 2 for a card or for 2 is just really bad and only useful in very niche cases. :/
I guess it becomes ok if you escalate it actually hit with the Duress mode, making it just a sorcery speed disfigure and narrower Duress.
But that still seems not overly amazing.
Perhaps the flexibility will make it worth it though.
Do you know what's worse than a 2 mana sorcery speed duress? A 3 mana instant that shocks and does raven's crime. Super unplayable. It's strictly a worse blightning and that doesn't even see play. I remember when you guys said that when Kolaghan's command was spoiled and I was laughing as a I bought a playset for $4. Evaluating a versatile card for one of it's abilities is a trap. I feel like people will fall into the trap again by saying that new liliana isn't very good when she is.
And that's why Player Shock + Discard is one of the modes I use the least with Kolaghan's Command.
I initially thought Kolaghan's Command was better than Blightning because KC can actually hit creatures, and creatures with toughness 2 or less can be fairly good.
Admittedly, I'm currently thinking that Collective Brutality is maindeckable because I'm surprised how much I'm willing to discard to Liliana in BGx Midrange. Thus, I think people will discard a large variety of cards to their own Collective Brutality, so Escalating it is no obstacle, even in goodstuffs like BGx Midrange. And it's nice to have targeted discard that isn't dead late-game...that's also removal that isn't dead against many combo decks.
The drain mode makes it playable since you can run it as a 1-2 of and have the card not be dead late game. (also snap + brutality can end games)
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
What really amazes me is that people is trying to evaluate CB's modes separately. If you look at all the commands or the charms, all the effects are not that powerful by themselves, but when you look at the card as a whole, understanding that you have a CHOICE between what mode to use accordingly to the situation you're in, then they become powerful and versatile. With CB you have to evaluate it thinking about situations where the mode or modes can be relevant, plus it allows you to discard for free practically.
So imo is wrong to asses the card like that because players are going to use it when the -2/-2 IS relevant, or when the drain is important, or when any mode matters and also they want to get something in the GY. So the real question is how often will the card, and by that i mean any mode and/or the discard, be relevant in an specific deck.
Does Eldritch Evolution have a place in modern? Also Lupine Prototype in 8rack?
A lot of people think Evolution is the next coming of Pod, but I'm not one of them. The words "as an additional cost to cast ~, sacrifice..." give me the heebie-jeebies. Cards like these are counterspell bait and set you up to get 2-for-1ed - see Harrow. At least with Pod, your opponent needed extremely specialized, virtually unplayed counterspells to stop the Pod activation, and even if they did, the Pod stayed on the field so it was a 1-for-1.
The last great card with sac-as-cost was Reshape, and it was OK because it was in a combo deck. If they had a counterspell in hand and didn't use it on your Reshape, you would have lost anyway when they used it on your Sunrise.
Lupine Prototype goes against the plan of hiding behind Ensnaring Bridge. I think Bridge is the better card since you can hide behind a Bridge much better than you can hide behind a Prototype. Prototype can attack for 5 but you're already playing 8 Rack effects for damage.
What really amazes me is that people is trying to evaluate CB's modes separately. If you look at all the commands or the charms, all the effects are not that powerful by themselves, but when you look at the card as a whole, understanding that you have a CHOICE between what mode to use accordingly to the situation you're in, then they become powerful and versatile. With CB you have to evaluate it thinking about situations where the mode or modes can be relevant, plus it allows you to discard for free practically.
So imo is wrong to asses the card like that because players are going to use it when the -2/-2 IS relevant, or when the drain is important, or when any mode matters and also they want to get something in the GY. So the real question is how often will the card, and by that i mean any mode and/or the discard, be relevant in an specific deck.
it should be noted, however, that the charms and commands take your mana and nothing else. Collective Brutality demands cards instead of mana, which is a different animal altogether. You're discarding a card to drain 2, or -2/-2 a creature and so on. Most times the card will offer a 2-for-2, but thats the best it will do; other times u may be inclined to use the drain mode and 2 for 1 yourself, unless you're fighting burn in which case lifegain is as good as a card.
Flexibility is always good; however, the cost is something we have to examine as well. This is a sorcery speed charm, except at the time u cast it, u get to "replicate" it for one of the other modes by discarding.
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Yeah, you're right, but we have to assume that Collective Brutality will be used in decks that can take advantage of that discard, so the cost becomes an advantage, otherwise the card may be somewhat dangerous. I doubt Madness is strong enough to put up a competitive deck, even at tier 2, but in that eventual shell or in dredge may sinergize well with the discard. I don't have my hopes too high but in the right deck could be a thing, we haven't seen a serious build yet.
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I feel like the real value in this card is abusing the discard escalate "cost." Decks that run things like bloodghast, lingering souls, life from the loam, or even ensnaring bridge will be able to abuse the heck out of this card. Not to mention graveyard combo decks like Goryo's Vengeance decks. There is a lot of potential synergy with this downside of this card.
It costs 2 mana, and it is easily splashable. Definitely versatile in it's modes.
Even if you aren't abusing the discard cost, the modes make it easy to 2-for-1 in many matchups early game. Late game it will be less relevant, but still useful.
Will not be so good against control decks with lots of counterspells. Getting an escalated spell remanded will hurt a lot.
Collective Brutality is currently undervalued IMO.
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I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I really don't feel you need to 'abuse' the discard, I just think you need to retool your deck around it. For instance, we're talking about running it in faeries and in doing so we're looking to up our copies of cards that can clog up your hand but are still powerful - cards like Ancestral Vision and Vendilion Clique.
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I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
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I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Just because a deck is tempo based doesn't mean you can't use sorcery speed things - after all, Goyf and Delver are the two best tempo creatures of all time and they're both played during the main phase exclusively. It's the way your deck is built and the way you try to stay ahead of opponents that builds tempo - it just happens that instants make this easier than normal. Pitching an extra V-Clique to kill a Goblin Guide and drain 2 sounds like a pretty fine deal to me in many situations. If you also consider the new Liliana as a viable card then you see more synergy for the deck as those pitched faeries can come right back to hand.
Note: I'm not trying to say that these are ideal situations, merely that I think eventually they can be something and we don't really have any way to 'abuse' the synergies in the same way that something like Dredge would.
Tempo is not necessarily reactive. In fact being proactive is stronger but harder.
I also really want to try out one or two Bedlam Reveler in Storm. It would be super janky, but the potential to draw three for RR is there, and looks like fun. The deck is already fringe and low tiered, so why not have some fun with it. Curious Homunculus also looks really fun for the deck. It's a strictly worse Goblin Electromancer for the deck, but like I said you've got to have some fun with lower tiered decks.
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As to abusability, being sorcery speed kinda trashes any hope of that. Like I said before, its three suboptimal plays slapped on a sorcery speed card.Even if you do all three modes, it's still pretty meh. I would rather have a card with one of CB's abilities done optimally than the option to do three jobs half assed.
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I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
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GBW Ghave
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I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Not many to be sure, but I could easily see a copy or two pop up in Jund, Azban, or other decks that run a medium to large suit of discard. Turning your late game Tseize into a Duress+spot removal or drain could be useful. For something like 8rack or maybe even Lantern I could see an argument for the card, helping you get hellbent to make full use of Ensnaring Bridge. It's going to be a niche card for sure, but I do think it has it's place in Modern. I really do wish that Escalate worked more like the Confluences from the recent commander decks. If only.
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I'm glad he plays almost as good as he looks as a 1-2 of. I mean, an unboltable prowess dude that ancestral recalls for RR seems pretty busted, so i'm not surprised. I'm sure it sometimes is a bit clunky, costs more, makes you discard when you don't want, etc, but still seems very very solid for RUG.
It's a bit more accurate to call Faeries a midrange deck with control and tempo attributes.
Also sorcery-speed effects are employed when they're deemed to be a sufficient mix of low cost, high impact, and/or value generating. The idea that Faeries is an archetype that purely plays on the opponent's end step is somewhat of a trap mentality, Faeries will take advantage of any opening to turn the corner from control to beatdown back to control.
As a budget magic player I have tryed to play duress and it is not very good. Often you would play it and you would se a 3 mana cost creature you needed to kill (goyf comes to mind). Also not being able to remove snapcaster mage is bad, as he will often buy back whatever you chose to discard.
The -2/-2 is not that impressive. It does not kill wild nacatel among other things.
Draining 2 life is not that impressive. The card gets better if you have something to gain from discarding. Take Inventory comes to mind.
I do not think a combined fisfigure and duress is that good.
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I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Ah ok I see where you were coming from now.
I have no intention of trying the Allosauras combo. I think this card will shine in Chord-like decks, not cause of an all in turn 1/2 combo, though I wouldnt be surprised if that deck put up some results once or twice.
Considering that we run 5-6 discard, Ashiok in the sideboard, as well as Ancestral Vision, it's not all that uncommon.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
And that's why Player Shock + Discard is one of the modes I use the least with Kolaghan's Command.
I initially thought Kolaghan's Command was better than Blightning because KC can actually hit creatures, and creatures with toughness 2 or less can be fairly good.
Admittedly, I'm currently thinking that Collective Brutality is maindeckable because I'm surprised how much I'm willing to discard to Liliana in BGx Midrange. Thus, I think people will discard a large variety of cards to their own Collective Brutality, so Escalating it is no obstacle, even in goodstuffs like BGx Midrange. And it's nice to have targeted discard that isn't dead late-game...that's also removal that isn't dead against many combo decks.
The drain mode makes it playable since you can run it as a 1-2 of and have the card not be dead late game. (also snap + brutality can end games)
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
So imo is wrong to asses the card like that because players are going to use it when the -2/-2 IS relevant, or when the drain is important, or when any mode matters and also they want to get something in the GY. So the real question is how often will the card, and by that i mean any mode and/or the discard, be relevant in an specific deck.
The last great card with sac-as-cost was Reshape, and it was OK because it was in a combo deck. If they had a counterspell in hand and didn't use it on your Reshape, you would have lost anyway when they used it on your Sunrise.
Lupine Prototype goes against the plan of hiding behind Ensnaring Bridge. I think Bridge is the better card since you can hide behind a Bridge much better than you can hide behind a Prototype. Prototype can attack for 5 but you're already playing 8 Rack effects for damage.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
it should be noted, however, that the charms and commands take your mana and nothing else. Collective Brutality demands cards instead of mana, which is a different animal altogether. You're discarding a card to drain 2, or -2/-2 a creature and so on. Most times the card will offer a 2-for-2, but thats the best it will do; other times u may be inclined to use the drain mode and 2 for 1 yourself, unless you're fighting burn in which case lifegain is as good as a card.
Flexibility is always good; however, the cost is something we have to examine as well. This is a sorcery speed charm, except at the time u cast it, u get to "replicate" it for one of the other modes by discarding.
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