So I'm wondering what the average number of Fetches people run are. I don't think I'm running enough... I've been scoping out decks with similar builds. I know there are lots of variables:
What Archetype are you running?
Number of Colors run along with intensity. How many of those colors have double (or even triple) colored mana casting costs?
Are you running on color fetches or not?
Fewer fetches might leave you better against Burn but worse off against Blood Moons (I've been seeing a lot T2 Blood Moon lately...)
I've been running 4-6 in two color maybe with a light 3rd splash in Mid-rangy or Control builds. 8-10 seems to be what people are running.
Basically what pizzap stated. Generally it's four of the fetch that can get all land types needed in the deck, and then one to three of the next best thing if the deck is really color intensive. Enemy fetches tend to be favored over the allied versions.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The general rule of thumb is 8 fetches for any 3 color deck with an overlap of your strongest colors. In Grixis for example, it is very common to run 4 Scalding Tarn and 4 Polluted Delta because Island is the most important land you need to get. If you find the need for additional thinning or just need more untapped lands guaranteed, Bloodstained Mire comes in for fetch #9-10. In my current Grixis Delver, I run a 4/4/1 split of Tarn, Delta, Mire.
It's an interesting question, and one that I'm about 99% certain people are getting wrong in deck construction. Which isn't to say I have the right answer either.
There's a few factors to look at, the first is how color intensive your deck is. The more colors your deck has, the stronger fetches become. Another factor is how many basics you need access to. Even in a 2 color deck where ample fixing is easy, fetches provide the opportunity for basics which helps to make your manabase more resilient.
Another interesting thing I've been playing with lately is goldfishing aggressive decks in a computer simulator I wrote. The low curve decks like Burn and Infect performed best with 25 lands containing 7 fetches (Infect was able to sub 4 lands for 4 hierarchs though), over an average of 1 million games. Such a list is only viable for 1 and 2 color decks though.
Lots has been written on hitting your color sources on time, and how many lands you need for that. My suggestion is to look at those lists, figure out how many you need, and then add a couple more lands beyond that.
As for my personal preferecnces, I usually run 1-2 and extra, and I make them a mix between fetches and basics. Take Jund which I've been playing lately, my manabase is:
Unconventional for sure since it's 2 higher than normal, but that just gives me the consistency to curve early, and convert unneeded lands to Liliana loyalty later.
Most of the time 7 or 8 is enough. Clearly there are exceptions, like if you're playing Affinity or if you have Leonin Arbiter in your deck, but I believe you can figure those out yourself. Erring on the high side is OK if you have cards that work well with fetches (Grim Lavamancer, Groundswell, Become Immense).
For 2 color decks I start with 8 fetches, 3 shocks, 3 basics of the main color and 1 of the secondary color (main = what I want to play on turn 1). If the deck is fast and is in an allied color pair, add 4 Scars lands. Otherwise add 2 checklands. A notable, easily confused exception is if your deck is actually "one color with a splash" (or two splashes!) - in that case you can do without the basic in the splash color. Infect doesn't play basic Island and Dredge doesn't play basic Forest, for example.
For 3 color decks I start with 8 fetches, 2 shocks in the main color pair, 1 of each other shock, 1 basic of each color.
If you have a card that costs 2+ mana of the same color, consider 1 filterland, or Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth if the color is black.
Counter Cat: 17-18 lands (18th would be the basic Forest), UGrw, 11 fetchlands, 5 shocks, 1 Island
BR Griselbrand: 19 lands, 7 Fetchlands (4 B/R, 3 B/x)
Next Level Loam (Jund colours): 10 fetchlands (since I want them for Loam)
UW Control: Between 4-8 (depending if B splash or not for Lingering Souls)
UR Delver: 8 Fetchlands (at 18 lands)
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
already been stated but usually around 8, overlapping on the most important colour. For example, in Grixis control I run 4 scalding tarns and 4 polluted deltas as blue is the most important colour.
some will go as high as 10 but I feel sometimes even with 8 I get stuck with more fetches than fetchable lands back in my deck.
Yeah, there's this curve of the fetches necessary for hitting all your colors optimally vs the number of basics you run. Some 5-color good stuff decks don't even bother with basics. The problem is a T2 blood moon. What would a Jund mana base look like knowing it would always be on the draw and it would always face a T2 Blood Moon? Or Burn.... As always, it's a balance.
Yeah, there's this curve of the fetches necessary for hitting all your colors optimally vs the number of basics you run. Some 5-color good stuff decks don't even bother with basics. The problem is a T2 blood moon. What would a Jund mana base look like knowing it would always be on the draw and it would always face a T2 Blood Moon? Or Burn.... As always, it's a balance.
sometimes that's just a price you have to pay to play modern
how badly do you need your mana to face losing to blood moon?
how much of a problem with burn do you have o change your mana base?
It really depends on the deck to be honest. For example, Scapeshift only plays 4 Misty Rainforest because it needs room for mountains. And Grishoalbrand only plays 5 - 6 fetches because it needs life to combo off.
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Modern RGTron UGInfect URStorm WUBRAd Nauseam BRGrishoalbrand URGScapeshift WBGAbzan Company WUBRGAmulet Titan BRGLiving End WGBogles
Per usual Izzetmage has it pretty much correct. I like to fun a few more fetches than needed, mostly due to Blood Moon and the ability to aggressively fetch basics in a deck that doesn't run many.
Izzetmage, you should really just do a "How to build a Modern Deck: 101" at this point.
Yeah, there's this curve of the fetches necessary for hitting all your colors optimally vs the number of basics you run. Some 5-color good stuff decks don't even bother with basics. The problem is a T2 blood moon. What would a Jund mana base look like knowing it would always be on the draw and it would always face a T2 Blood Moon? Or Burn.... As always, it's a balance.
sometimes that's just a price you have to pay to play modern
how badly do you need your mana to face losing to blood moon?
how much of a problem with burn do you have o change your mana base?
In a vacuum, I'd prefer to run 2 colors. It's a slight dip in overall raw power but it's a hedge against Blood Moon and I think you'll have a bit of a smoother go against burn. I was thinking that since the mana requirements weren't so great you could cut back on 1 or 2 fetches. But from what people are saying, that might be incorrect. I'll think I'll go up to 8 and see how it goes.
Yeah, there's this curve of the fetches necessary for hitting all your colors optimally vs the number of basics you run. Some 5-color good stuff decks don't even bother with basics. The problem is a T2 blood moon. What would a Jund mana base look like knowing it would always be on the draw and it would always face a T2 Blood Moon? Or Burn.... As always, it's a balance.
sometimes that's just a price you have to pay to play modern
how badly do you need your mana to face losing to blood moon?
how much of a problem with burn do you have o change your mana base?
In a vacuum, I'd prefer to run 2 colors. It's a slight dip in overall raw power but it's a hedge against Blood Moon and I think you'll have a bit of a smoother go against burn. I was thinking that since the mana requirements weren't so great you could cut back on 1 or 2 fetches. But from what people are saying, that might be incorrect. I'll think I'll go up to 8 and see how it goes.
testing would be the best option, sometimes you may find you may have too many but whatever works for your deck
Per usual Izzetmage has it pretty much correct. I like to fun a few more fetches than needed, mostly due to Blood Moon and the ability to aggressively fetch basics in a deck that doesn't run many.
Izzetmage, you should really just do a "How to build a Modern Deck: 101" at this point.
Well, thanks, but really, anyone can figure this sort of stuff out by spending enough time looking at decklists, noticing patterns, and asking yourself "why did he play this?"
I can't build decks unless they involve playing 4 copies of each spell or close to it
Per usual Izzetmage has it pretty much correct. I like to fun a few more fetches than needed, mostly due to Blood Moon and the ability to aggressively fetch basics in a deck that doesn't run many.
Izzetmage, you should really just do a "How to build a Modern Deck: 101" at this point.
Well, thanks, but really, anyone can figure this sort of stuff out by spending enough time looking at decklists, noticing patterns, and asking yourself "why did he play this?"
I can't build decks unless they involve playing 4 copies of each spell or close to it
I don't remember where I saw it or who said it but the gist is that basically the first 70 cards speak to how good a deck builder you are. The last 5 speak to how good a deck tuner you are. I figure let the tuners shave the odd 4th copy for something 2-4% better.
EDIT: Maybe Chapin's Next Level Deckbuilding?
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What Archetype are you running?
Number of Colors run along with intensity. How many of those colors have double (or even triple) colored mana casting costs?
Are you running on color fetches or not?
Fewer fetches might leave you better against Burn but worse off against Blood Moons (I've been seeing a lot T2 Blood Moon lately...)
I've been running 4-6 in two color maybe with a light 3rd splash in Mid-rangy or Control builds. 8-10 seems to be what people are running.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
There's a few factors to look at, the first is how color intensive your deck is. The more colors your deck has, the stronger fetches become. Another factor is how many basics you need access to. Even in a 2 color deck where ample fixing is easy, fetches provide the opportunity for basics which helps to make your manabase more resilient.
Another interesting thing I've been playing with lately is goldfishing aggressive decks in a computer simulator I wrote. The low curve decks like Burn and Infect performed best with 25 lands containing 7 fetches (Infect was able to sub 4 lands for 4 hierarchs though), over an average of 1 million games. Such a list is only viable for 1 and 2 color decks though.
Lots has been written on hitting your color sources on time, and how many lands you need for that. My suggestion is to look at those lists, figure out how many you need, and then add a couple more lands beyond that.
As for my personal preferecnces, I usually run 1-2 and extra, and I make them a mix between fetches and basics. Take Jund which I've been playing lately, my manabase is:
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
4 Raging Ravine
1 Treetop Village
2 Forest
2 Swamp
Unconventional for sure since it's 2 higher than normal, but that just gives me the consistency to curve early, and convert unneeded lands to Liliana loyalty later.
For 2 color decks I start with 8 fetches, 3 shocks, 3 basics of the main color and 1 of the secondary color (main = what I want to play on turn 1). If the deck is fast and is in an allied color pair, add 4 Scars lands. Otherwise add 2 checklands. A notable, easily confused exception is if your deck is actually "one color with a splash" (or two splashes!) - in that case you can do without the basic in the splash color. Infect doesn't play basic Island and Dredge doesn't play basic Forest, for example.
For 3 color decks I start with 8 fetches, 2 shocks in the main color pair, 1 of each other shock, 1 basic of each color.
If you have a card that costs 2+ mana of the same color, consider 1 filterland, or Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth if the color is black.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
BR Griselbrand: 19 lands, 7 Fetchlands (4 B/R, 3 B/x)
Next Level Loam (Jund colours): 10 fetchlands (since I want them for Loam)
UW Control: Between 4-8 (depending if B splash or not for Lingering Souls)
UR Delver: 8 Fetchlands (at 18 lands)
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
some will go as high as 10 but I feel sometimes even with 8 I get stuck with more fetches than fetchable lands back in my deck.
sometimes that's just a price you have to pay to play modern
how badly do you need your mana to face losing to blood moon?
how much of a problem with burn do you have o change your mana base?
Jund:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
Coco:
4 Catacombs
4 Windswept heath
1 Marsh flats
Decks
Modern
BGR Jund RGB
BW Eldrazi and Taxes WB
BWGAbzan Company GWB
Mtgo Modern
G Company Elves G
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
Modern - Burn
EDH - Neheb the Eternal
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
Izzetmage, you should really just do a "How to build a Modern Deck: 101" at this point.
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
In a vacuum, I'd prefer to run 2 colors. It's a slight dip in overall raw power but it's a hedge against Blood Moon and I think you'll have a bit of a smoother go against burn. I was thinking that since the mana requirements weren't so great you could cut back on 1 or 2 fetches. But from what people are saying, that might be incorrect. I'll think I'll go up to 8 and see how it goes.
testing would be the best option, sometimes you may find you may have too many but whatever works for your deck
I can't build decks unless they involve playing 4 copies of each spell or close to it
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
I don't remember where I saw it or who said it but the gist is that basically the first 70 cards speak to how good a deck builder you are. The last 5 speak to how good a deck tuner you are. I figure let the tuners shave the odd 4th copy for something 2-4% better.
EDIT: Maybe Chapin's Next Level Deckbuilding?