It's been alright in a Jund shell. Most of the time it just sucks up removal, which is fine because my goyfs get bigger then him. When he survives to swing is when he's incredible. His ability is essentially scry 3 when he does damage, and on a 4/4 with trample for 2, that's nutty. Works great with Bob, letting you stack the lower cmc card for his effect and then higher ones.
Overall, I think he'll see some main deck play. Probably in place of scooze for those that ran it maindeck, and get swapped in matches that need the lifegain/gy shenanigans.
Not sure how good he would be in other decks. My instinct says Junk could use him much the same way as Jund and to similar effect, and I'm sure he'll pop up in other decks. At worst, he soaks removal which isn't bad for a 2 drop. At best, he's a 4/4 trampler with scry 3 attached to his attacks who can make your goyfs bigger and fill your yard if that helps your gameplan.
O rly? The pros that play Standard seem to think that he's worse than Sylvan Advocate.
Every green creature is going to be worse than Sylvan Advocate, it's basically standard's Tarmogoyf but that doesn't mean you can play 6-8 sylvan advocates in one deck, now at least you can pick between Grim Flayer an Duskwatch Recruiter to fill those spots.
Well yeah. Thats an even better standard card. This card will still see a good amount of standard play. Either way hes not good enough for modern.
Excuse me? He's an unboltable 4/4 (certainly not a bear) which Scrys 3 and tramples over random chumpers. For 2 mana. Not Modern playable, are you insane??? :0
I personally see him in a BUG Delirium shell, a bit modified from my trusty RUG Delirium deck:
Either way, he's gonna be a powerhouse. I'm not sure he's gonna be good in Jund, Traverse is terrible in Jund and Junk, and I don't see Grim Flayer being better, honestly.
Well yeah. Thats an even better standard card. This card will still see a good amount of standard play. Either way hes not good enough for modern.
Excuse me? He's an unboltable 4/4 (certainly not a bear) which Scrys 3 and tramples over random chumpers. For 2 mana. Not Modern playable, are you insane??? :0
I personally see him in a BUG Delirium shell, a bit modified from my trusty RUG Delirium deck:
Either way, he's gonna be a powerhouse. I'm not sure he's gonna be good in Jund, Traverse is terrible in Jund and Junk, and I don't see Grim Flayer being better, honestly.
I have been thinking about some of the same lines. It is essentially jumping through some hoops to play '12 goyf'. I think it will be a descent enough strategy but very vunerable vs gravyeard hate. Mostly white decks that play rest in piece. The rise of nahiri/emrakul and dredge makes sure people play gravediggers cage witch is good for Grim Flayer decks.
It is to hear some jund players have had suckes with grim flayer in modern.
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In Jund I don't know if he's just a turn 4 and onward play. If I have a turn 1 IoK/TS, I will often go to turn 2 flayer and then turn 3 Bob,with one mana open for maybe a bolt to clear flayers path, then his scry 3 really works well with Bob and you're off to the races.
Overall I feel like he enables some more aggressive lines of play with Jund. Maybe I'm wrong, and I'll keep testing.
Well yeah. Thats an even better standard card. This card will still see a good amount of standard play. Either way hes not good enough for modern.
Excuse me? He's an unboltable 4/4 (certainly not a bear) which Scrys 3 and tramples over random chumpers. For 2 mana. Not Modern playable, are you insane??? :0
I personally see him in a BUG Delirium shell, a bit modified from my trusty RUG Delirium deck:
Either way, he's gonna be a powerhouse. I'm not sure he's gonna be good in Jund, Traverse is terrible in Jund and Junk, and I don't see Grim Flayer being better, honestly.
I have been thinking about some of the same lines. It is essentially jumping through some hoops to play '12 goyf'. I think it will be a descent enough strategy but very vunerable vs gravyeard hate. Mostly white decks that play rest in piece. The rise of nahiri/emrakul and dredge makes sure people play gravediggers cage witch is good for Grim Flayer decks.
It is to hear some jund players have had suckes with grim flayer in modern.
I agree GY hate wrecks these decks, but then I thought for a little while and I realized this is true for basically all aggro-control (and some midrange) decks in Modern. Grixis Delver? Play a RIP and destroy them, since Tasigur, Angler and Snap are so crucial for their plan. BGx? Goyfs become useless. So, in general, I think RIP is a difficult card to beat, although against other hate like Relic, it is much easier. You can quickly force them to crack it against a huge golf and achieve Delirium ASAP.
And yah, Gravediggers is good for these decks, as it doesn't do much except shut down Snaps.
I also wondered... if you fold to RIP anyways, why not play Dredge which is extremely fast and also folds to it? Well, I think the answer is clear here: that deck, as an obvious combo deck, has near zero interaction (besides conflagrate), which means that decks like Infect or Affinity WILL be faster than you, probably. With an aggro-control strategy you actually have answers and a pretty good matchup against these.
Well if you have abrupt decays, maybe malestorm pulse you do not fold to rest in piece. If they piece you just kill it and goyf is a 2/3 again. G. Flayer never drops below 2/2 and he can refill your yard.
Also gravediggers cage wrecks dredge.
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In Jund I don't know if he's just a turn 4 and onward play. If I have a turn 1 IoK/TS, I will often go to turn 2 flayer and then turn 3 Bob,with one mana open for maybe a bolt to clear flayers path, then his scry 3 really works well with Bob and you're off to the races.
Overall I feel like he enables some more aggressive lines of play with Jund. Maybe I'm wrong, and I'll keep testing.
This feels like a totally legit play. The Flayer seems to want to really be in a Tempo/Tap out control role. Even GF on T2 into LotV T3 seems fantastic. Scry 3 is so much. Except it's better than that with any bit of GY synergy. Seems good.
So everything being equal (opponent's deck notwithstanding), a Jund player with both Grim Flayer and Dark Confidant in hand would curve out Grim Flayer followed by Bob?
I think I'd be pretty happy to see Jund player across the table slow roll bob like that. Give up a card draw for a potential gravescry 3? Sure thing boss.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I'd prolly play Grim Flayer on turn 2 over Bob 9 times out of 10. Grim Flayer needs to connect, so swinging on turn 3 over turn 4 is huge, and if there is removal I would much rather have it hit Flayer over Bob.
I played against a sultai list with him (the delirium list from modern nexus) and I'd say it showed alotta promise.
It was essentially 8 goyfs (flayer makes up for slightly lower raw power by bringing trample and card filtering)
4 stubborn denials (and a couple other counters) to protect, snaps extend the value here.
And the 4 traverses filled out whichever side of the equation you needed. More pressure? Grab a goyf/flayer. More protection/removal? Grab a snap.
Dude was also running the standard discard suite + whispers of emrakuel.
And let me tell you, delirium was pretty consistently active by turn 2 if not 3.
That's probably it's biggest strength, surprisingly enough, it was really consistent. I mean, I still beat the thing, but I was on skred with MD relics and moons.
I've been have a lot of success with a more aggressive Jund build running Faithless Looting to get Delirium for a Turn 2 Whispers of Emrakul. Can be pretty backbreaking. Followed up by Goyf or Grim it's pretty brutal.
The funny thing is that he feels like if Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf had a baby. I could see someone using him in a budget jund build in modern quite easily and it might have a place even in the full deck.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I really want to see him in Modern. I actually was thinking in a GB Aggro direction, but there really isn't a place for a strictly creature-based aggro plan.
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"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
Well I'm having a blast in standard at the moment, and I'm hoping to see a lot of cards from the current standard find a home in modern. I've rarely been impressed enough to really lay money into the game all at once, but delirium and spirits have been just way too much fun and I've already ended up buying into liliana, grim flayer, etc. I'm still not sure how and where all the good cards will find a modern home, but I find it hard to believe that grim flayer, Sylvan advocate, and even the new Liliana wont find something somewhere.
Emerge seems like the broken mechanic of the set for modern as an alternative form of ramp.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Many posters in the Jund thread believe Grim Flayer is a new main deck card.
Ehh you need to cut something for it. I like the card but I feel like it would be better in a graveyard themed deck. Something with Lingering souls/Loam maybe? and other graveyard value. I feel regular Jund can do better with more disruption and the normal creatures
Has anyone tried it yet? What have been your experiences?
Overall, I think he'll see some main deck play. Probably in place of scooze for those that ran it maindeck, and get swapped in matches that need the lifegain/gy shenanigans.
Not sure how good he would be in other decks. My instinct says Junk could use him much the same way as Jund and to similar effect, and I'm sure he'll pop up in other decks. At worst, he soaks removal which isn't bad for a 2 drop. At best, he's a 4/4 trampler with scry 3 attached to his attacks who can make your goyfs bigger and fill your yard if that helps your gameplan.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
I would think that in a Sultai shell he would be good with stubborn denial
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Every green creature is going to be worse than Sylvan Advocate, it's basically standard's Tarmogoyf but that doesn't mean you can play 6-8 sylvan advocates in one deck, now at least you can pick between Grim Flayer an Duskwatch Recruiter to fill those spots.
Excuse me? He's an unboltable 4/4 (certainly not a bear) which Scrys 3 and tramples over random chumpers. For 2 mana. Not Modern playable, are you insane??? :0
I personally see him in a BUG Delirium shell, a bit modified from my trusty RUG Delirium deck:
4 Grim Flayer
4 Architects of Will
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Erayo, Sorarami Ascendant
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Whispers of Emrakul
3 Vapor Snag
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Watery Grave
2 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
Either way, he's gonna be a powerhouse. I'm not sure he's gonna be good in Jund, Traverse is terrible in Jund and Junk, and I don't see Grim Flayer being better, honestly.
I have been thinking about some of the same lines. It is essentially jumping through some hoops to play '12 goyf'. I think it will be a descent enough strategy but very vunerable vs gravyeard hate. Mostly white decks that play rest in piece. The rise of nahiri/emrakul and dredge makes sure people play gravediggers cage witch is good for Grim Flayer decks.
It is to hear some jund players have had suckes with grim flayer in modern.
Overall I feel like he enables some more aggressive lines of play with Jund. Maybe I'm wrong, and I'll keep testing.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I agree GY hate wrecks these decks, but then I thought for a little while and I realized this is true for basically all aggro-control (and some midrange) decks in Modern. Grixis Delver? Play a RIP and destroy them, since Tasigur, Angler and Snap are so crucial for their plan. BGx? Goyfs become useless. So, in general, I think RIP is a difficult card to beat, although against other hate like Relic, it is much easier. You can quickly force them to crack it against a huge golf and achieve Delirium ASAP.
And yah, Gravediggers is good for these decks, as it doesn't do much except shut down Snaps.
I also wondered... if you fold to RIP anyways, why not play Dredge which is extremely fast and also folds to it? Well, I think the answer is clear here: that deck, as an obvious combo deck, has near zero interaction (besides conflagrate), which means that decks like Infect or Affinity WILL be faster than you, probably. With an aggro-control strategy you actually have answers and a pretty good matchup against these.
Also gravediggers cage wrecks dredge.
This feels like a totally legit play. The Flayer seems to want to really be in a Tempo/Tap out control role. Even GF on T2 into LotV T3 seems fantastic. Scry 3 is so much. Except it's better than that with any bit of GY synergy. Seems good.
I can't think of a downside to flayer eating a bolt that would have taken out bobby, at worst he sucks up removal, and at best he's awesome
If he were a 3 drop, he'd be unplayable. But at 2 he's pretty damn good
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
I think I'd be pretty happy to see Jund player across the table slow roll bob like that. Give up a card draw for a potential gravescry 3? Sure thing boss.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
It was essentially 8 goyfs (flayer makes up for slightly lower raw power by bringing trample and card filtering)
4 stubborn denials (and a couple other counters) to protect, snaps extend the value here.
And the 4 traverses filled out whichever side of the equation you needed. More pressure? Grab a goyf/flayer. More protection/removal? Grab a snap.
Dude was also running the standard discard suite + whispers of emrakuel.
And let me tell you, delirium was pretty consistently active by turn 2 if not 3.
That's probably it's biggest strength, surprisingly enough, it was really consistent. I mean, I still beat the thing, but I was on skred with MD relics and moons.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Emerge seems like the broken mechanic of the set for modern as an alternative form of ramp.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Ehh you need to cut something for it. I like the card but I feel like it would be better in a graveyard themed deck. Something with Lingering souls/Loam maybe? and other graveyard value. I feel regular Jund can do better with more disruption and the normal creatures