Well I'm having a blast in standard at the moment, and I'm hoping to see a lot of cards from the current standard find a home in modern. I've rarely been impressed enough to really lay money into the game all at once, but delirium and spirits have been just way too much fun and I've already ended up buying into liliana, grim flayer, etc. I'm still not sure how and where all the good cards will find a modern home, but I find it hard to believe that grim flayer, Sylvan advocate, and even the new Liliana wont find something somewhere.
Emerge seems like the broken mechanic of the set for modern as an alternative form of ramp.
Unfortunately, I don't think Sylvan Advocate has a home in modern. I mean, he's not horrible by any means, but he's a 2/2 for 2 until after turn 6, at which point he's a 4/5 for 2, which is quite good. The problem is that I can't possibly think of a situation where I wouldn't rather just run Goyf (maybe sideboard against decks with lots of gy hate?) and I don't think any deck needs both. The new lili isn't horrible though.
As for Flayer in Jund, I think he can possibly take the slot of lavamancer, and maybe drop scooze to a singleton plus one scooze in SB
To be honest, Khaos, I don't see a lot of people running Goyf simply because he costs so much for so little gain over the alternatives. I suppose if someone is in a cutthroat meta where everyone is running super optimized decks that it would be an issue, but Sylvan advocate would definitely work in some builds. He pumps man-lands including Blinkmoth Nexus and Inkmoth nexus.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
True, and when he's good he's great, especially when he pumps up some other manlands. I suppose I was talking about in a competitive sense Advocate probably won't make many top 8 lists. I think Grim Flayer might though.
I really want to see him in Modern. I actually was thinking in a GB Aggro direction, but there really isn't a place for a strictly creature-based aggro plan.
How would you get delirium in a strictly creature-based aggro plan?
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I really want to see him in Modern. I actually was thinking in a GB Aggro direction, but there really isn't a place for a strictly creature-based aggro plan.
How would you get delirium in a strictly creature-based aggro plan?
I never said it would be a good deck
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"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
I really want to see him in Modern. I actually was thinking in a GB Aggro direction, but there really isn't a place for a strictly creature-based aggro plan.
How would you get delirium in a strictly creature-based aggro plan?
I never said it would be a good deck
But what's the point of playing Grim Flayer if you can't reach delirium?
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
So grim flayer + courser of kruphix possibly enables entreat the angels and terminus? Might need to run Satyr Wayfinders to enable delirium consistently though.
So grim flayer + courser of kruphix possibly enables entreat the angels and terminus? Might need to run Satyr Wayfinders to enable delirium consistently though.
Flayer + Courser + Terminus seems like a huge nonbo, but Entreat may be worth considering.
By that logic why not run Mystic Speculation? Back on topic, perhaps we focusing too much on graveyard interaction and not enough on stacking the deck? Also, NZB2323 you're totally right. I was focusing too much on the graveyard.
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So grim flayer + courser of kruphix possibly enables entreat the angels and terminus? Might need to run Satyr Wayfinders to enable delirium consistently though.
Flayer + Courser + Terminus seems like a huge nonbo, but Entreat may be worth considering.
I mean if you're seriously behind on board and will gain cards by terminusing, I don't see a huge risk. Especially if you're in a traverse shell where you can traverse for your threats you put back in the deck.
I think it'd probably be a sideboard card.
Still, jamming 4 entreats feels like potentially gross with courser and flayer. They're super powerful and courser helps turn on flayer for delirium too. resolving an entreat for 3 feels likely to be game over for most decks.
The big difference between flayer and advocate is that it's much harder to reach 6 lands in modern than in standard, but it's much easier in modern to get delerium.
Its not as hard as it seems to get six lands in modern. Youll play three or four easy, theyll Path to Exile you a few times and youll have it. And if youre playing Advocate, ramping into Primeval Titan will turn six lands on real quick. Which you can do on turn three.
You guys do remember your crappy 2/2 has to HIT the opponent in order to manipulate the library right? its just a pipe dream
Late-game Grim Flayers are 4/4's, not 2/2's, so they're no longer crappy.
With that being said, I've tested Grim Flayer in a Jund mirror and Scavenging Ooze does a great job of shrinking Grim Flayers back down to 2/2's. That's a fairly big strike against Flayer, and some of why I'm still uncomfortable with the card outside of Suicide Zoo (where a 2/2 with Trample built-in is great, especially in a deck where every single creature has a "Kill Me" sign on it, and connecting once is likely game over and easier to do with pump spells).
True, and when he's good he's great, especially when he pumps up some other manlands. I suppose I was talking about in a competitive sense Advocate probably won't make many top 8 lists. I think Grim Flayer might though.
Hes not good then either. The only reason to run man lands in modern is either for over running, or attrition. When over running, like for example, affinity, you will never hit the 6 lands, because you want to win the game fast. they still also play it because mostly the second point, attrition. For the removal deck (jund/junk) it lets you keep up removal, then use man lands if you dont have creatures, and for the non removal deck (zoo, affinity) it lets you win attrition, because when you get one for oned, you still can beat down.
Either way, you wont have 6 lands or he wont be alive. Advocate is bad.
You guys do remember your crappy 2/2 has to HIT the opponent in order to manipulate the library right? its just a pipe dream
Late-game Grim Flayers are 4/4's, not 2/2's, so they're no longer crappy.
With that being said, I've tested Grim Flayer in a Jund mirror and Scavenging Ooze does a great job of shrinking Grim Flayers back down to 2/2's. That's a fairly big strike against Flayer, and some of why I'm still uncomfortable with the card outside of Suicide Zoo (where a 2/2 with Trample built-in is great, especially in a deck where every single creature has a "Kill Me" sign on it, and connecting once is likely game over and easier to do with pump spells).
This is really the only way its getting used. It will only ever see play in a grave deck, that wants stuff in its yard while being aggressive, or it wants to be in a aggressive deck that doesnt mind the sorting. Grave decks got better options, even at two mana, as we can see dredge filling those slots with free creatures, or ways to dredge harder. If it said draw, it might see play in dredgevine, as a way to activate vine. Death shadow zoo decks MIGHT want him since trample and Become Immense delves, and he sets up some stuff for them. You have to compare him to steppe lynx, which is more damage short term, nacatl, and even Gnarlwood Dryad, which can be a 5-8 nacatl for that deck... all of which is at 1 mana. And in terms of raw damage, goyf still might win there because its 4/5 or higher even when flayer is 4/4.
The midrange decks will always run goyf over it. Can it set up some cool stuff for them, maybe even enable dredge or lingering souls? Yes. But if you ask any junk, jund, bug players about this or goyf, they will pick goyf because goyf blocks aggro and wins, and can do more damage more reliably than him against control.
And I know... WHY NOT RUN GOYF AND THIS?! the answer is simple. Because you'll run tasigur or angler over this. Well he sets up dredge, so run all 3. Well no, you'll want ooze over this. It shrinks mirror goyfs and tasigurs down, while hurting grave decks and snapcaster. And why not run all of them? Because you need slots for removal too. At the end of the day, this is a card that COULD be strong enough to see play, but you'll never run it because it has better options in all the decks that would run it. Its not that it doesnt have a home. It does, but those decks are too advanced to run it.
And I know... WHY NOT RUN GOYF AND THIS?! the answer is simple. Because you'll run tasigur or angler over this. Well he sets up dredge, so run all 3. Well no, you'll want ooze over this. It shrinks mirror goyfs and tasigurs down, while hurting grave decks and snapcaster. And why not run all of them? Because you need slots for removal too. At the end of the day, this is a card that COULD be strong enough to see play, but you'll never run it because it has better options in all the decks that would run it. Its not that it doesnt have a home. It does, but those decks are too advanced to run it.
I think in a "traditional" G/B/X Delve centered list Grim Flayer is not the card you want. In a list that wants Delirium, he is. You are able to run traverse along side him for no additional deck building costs. Traverse even helps to turn on Delirium if need be. If you are in R, then Bedlam Reveler can come along for the ride as well.
The question that remains is, what is a better shell? The Delve or the Delirium one.
Delve gives you :
Tasigur
Angler
Murderous cut
At the cost of sometimes shrinking your Goyf.
Delirium gives you:
Grim Flayer
Traverse
Bedlam Reveler
A little better Goyf support
At the cost of being weaker to GY and running some less then ideal cards like Bauble and Tarfire.
Delve is the better one, always. Delve is cost reduction. Delirium is a slightly better addition for jumping through hoops. Delve doesnt care whats in the grave, and loves fetchlands. Delirium sees fetches as 1/4th.
Its not a contest. My point remains. All of the cards listed are all worse then their already existing counterparts.
Delve is the better one, always. Delve is cost reduction. Delirium is a slightly better addition for jumping through hoops. Delve doesnt care whats in the grave, and loves fetchlands. Delirium sees fetches as 1/4th.
Its not a contest. My point remains. All of the cards listed are all worse then their already existing counterparts.
That is what people where saying when the dredge cards where fist being built around. Especial in Grix Delver. Though Scour is a crappy card in any other deck. In U based Delve decks it makes them work.
I am not saying 1 is better the the other for sure. Grim flayer is def weaker then goyf once you get over 5 types in the GY. I would never suggest that Grim Flayer is a replacement. I would say that it can help you have Goyf 5-8 in decks that want that type of thing. Traverse is an amazing card once you Delirium. It become a slightly worse Green Suns Zenith. Bedlam Reveler is an amazing card when you can play and get the full impact.
What I am saying the jury is still out. Bauble may end up filling the Thought Sour roll in the Delirium shell. Architects of Will might work out as well. Personally I could see a R/G/X Delirium shell and a G/B/X shell going in and out of favor as the meta shift.
Almost everybody in the Jund thread is running him now, with lots of people raving about him in the deck. We're also seeing him pop up in published winning MODO Jund lists.
Almost everybody in the Jund thread is running him now, with lots of people raving about him in the deck. We're also seeing him pop up in published winning MODO Jund lists.
If lots of people are raving about Grim Flayer in Jund, has anyone besides me tried the 4 Eternal Scourge-2 Memoricide equivalent package in Jund? I've found that the package gives Jund an insane late-game and more resistance to Blood Moon. I suspect it gives up a little early game compared to Grim Flayer, but the late-game is so insane that it generally beats Grim Flayer.
That's another reason why I'm convinced Jund's a fairly bad deck for Grim Flayer--it's tough to turn on Delirium by Turn 5 in Jund, I tend to stack planeswalkers on TOP with Flayer strikes so Flayer stays shrunk, and I suspect Jund is better off with the Eternal Scourge package.
Almost everybody in the Jund thread is running him now, with lots of people raving about him in the deck. We're also seeing him pop up in published winning MODO Jund lists.
If lots of people are raving about Grim Flayer in Jund, has anyone besides me tried the 4 Eternal Scourge-2 Memoricide equivalent package in Jund? I've found that the package gives Jund an insane late-game and more resistance to Blood Moon. I suspect it gives up a little early game compared to Grim Flayer, but the late-game is so insane that it generally beats Grim Flayer.
That's another reason why I'm convinced Jund's a fairly bad deck for Grim Flayer--it's tough to turn on Delirium by Turn 5 in Jund, I tend to stack planeswalkers on TOP with Flayer strikes so Flayer stays shrunk, and I suspect Jund is better off with the Eternal Scourge package.
With the testing I've done and with actual results confirming that Grim is at least potentially viable in competitive Jund I'm having a hard time understanding the negativity that Flayer is taking here. Flayer has been great in testing for me, Delirium isn't that difficult to switch on in an actual "non goldfish" game of MTG when playing Jund. I've noticed most of the people here criticizing Flayer seem to literally just be pointing out faults of the card which those of us thought about it before testing it out for ourselves. Later, when actually testing it, most of us found it to be much more resilient than theorycrafting the negatives led us to believe. Test the card out for yourselves guys, seriously.
I'll playtest some more Jund mirrors tonight (Jund with Grim Flayer vs. Jund with my Eternal Scourge package), but in my testing, the Jund mirror was actually a fairly bad matchup for Jund Grim Flayer because of opposing Scavenging Ooze reliably eliminating Delirium. ...Let alone all the removal flying around and Goyfs set up to block.
I suspect that Grim Flayer performs better against combo and hyper-aggro-that-doesn't-block-Flayer (such as Affinity and Infect). Eternal Scourge is probably slower in those match-ups.
In my experience, Grim Flayer's trigger doesn't turn on his own Delirium unless all I'm missing are lands, sorceries, and/or instants. I don't tend to reliably get Delirium in any deck that doesn't self-mill with unconditional cards and doesn't play artifacts, enchantments, or tribal until Turn 8.
Got in 20 Grim Flayer Jund vs. Eternal Scourge Jund pre-board games (against myself), loser goes first in the next game. Spoiler alert: I'm surprised at the results.
Here are the results of the first 20 straight games. Assume that "Scourge wins" means Scourge Jund wins, "Flayer wins" means Flayer Jund wins, and both Memoricide and Cranial Extraction get called "Cranial":
G1: Scourge wins, Cranial Extraction, Flayer didn't matter--too many attackers
G2: Flayer wins, no Cranial, no Scourge, Flayer came too late to matter
G3: Flayer wins, no Flayer, no Cranial, Team Scourge was mana-screwed, Scourge was marked for death
G4: Scourge wins, Cranial, no Flayer
G5: Flayer wins, 2 Flayers neutralized by blockers and Ooze for nearly all of the game, no Cranial, Scourge gets sacced to Lili, but Bob and Tireless Tracker run away with the game for Team Flayer
G6: Flayer wins, no Flayer, no Cranial, no Scourge
G7: Scourge wins, no Cranial, Scourge came too late to matter, Flayer stays a 2/2 for much of the game but gets several hits in (took around 3 turns to hit Delirium with Flayer triggers), Flayer died before the end of the game and Team Scourge turned it around, Ooze was pretty good against Flayer
G8: Scourge wins, Flayer never got Delirium or connected, Cranial arguably didn't matter
G9: Scourge wins, Cranial, no Flayer
G10: Flayer wins, Cranial, no Flayer, but Team Flayer out-tempos Team Scourge and Team Scourge can't put out 2 or more blockers a turn
G11: Flayer wins, Team Scourge was mana-screwed and behind an active Lili, Scourge got discarded, Cranial got discarded, Lili ulted, no Flayer
G12: Flayer wins, Flayer started with Delirium on and connected several times, Flayer didn't mill or reorder much, Cranial got discarded, no Scourge
G13: Scourge wins, no Cranial, no Scourge, Flayer got sacced by Lili immediately
G14: Flayer wins, Cranial, Flayer got Delirium the turn it connected, Team Flayer out-tempos Team Scourge and sticks 2 Bobs
G15: Flayer wins, no Cranial, no Scourge, no Flayer
G16: Flayer wins, no Cranial, Flayer was sandbagged until it ETB with Delirium, Flayer connected once, Scourge couldn't block it well enough
G17: Flayer wins, no Cranial, Flayer ETB with Delirium and connected several times, Scourge got discarded and sacced to Lili
G18: Flayer wins, Cranial, Flayer ETB with Delirium, Team Flayer plowed through 4 Scourges
G19: Scourge wins, Cranial, Flayer got discarded to own Lili to keep Tireless Trackers in hand
G20: Flayer wins, Cranial, Flayer ETB with Delirium and connected once, Team Flayer plowed through 4 Scourges
A summary of the above:
Scourge Jund won only 7 out of 20 games, which was pretty surprising to me.
Notably, Scourge Jund got mana-screwed twice, while Flayer Jund didn't get mana-screwed a single time. Perhaps a subtle advantage of Grim Flayer is that it only costs 2 mana, thus driving down average mana costs and reducing the chance of mana screw.
Flayer Jund out-tempos a resolved Cranial naming Eternal Scourge four times. Two of those times, Flayer Jund plowed through all 4 Scourges.
Grim Flayer looks fairly good whenever it has Delirium and an opposing Scavenging Ooze doesn't show up. Opposing Ooze ruins Flayer, though.
Scourge has a nasty habit of dying in combat or Lili, and whenever Flayer Jund is pretty far ahead, it also has a nasty habit of getting hit by removal.
This is very commendable. Most players don't want to admit when they're wrong and it impedes them becoming a better player some day. This was a very good and thorough analysis and reminds me of a Karsten-like or ktkenshinx type analysis. Good on you!
I think that Grim Flayer is good in Jund and I didn't know where it would fit. I didn't know what would get cut, but now that I can see a list, it is interesting to see them get a new tool.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
There have been a few brews floating around. The core problem for modern is that BUG lacks Bolt for reach. Delve and Delirium do not play that well together that well either. You end up having to Delve away cards you need for Delirium. There have been some theory crafting on a 4 color deck that splashes R for bolt / terminate though.
There may be a more discard heavy BUG list that use Whispers of Emrakul, Traverse, and flayer.
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Unfortunately, I don't think Sylvan Advocate has a home in modern. I mean, he's not horrible by any means, but he's a 2/2 for 2 until after turn 6, at which point he's a 4/5 for 2, which is quite good. The problem is that I can't possibly think of a situation where I wouldn't rather just run Goyf (maybe sideboard against decks with lots of gy hate?) and I don't think any deck needs both. The new lili isn't horrible though.
As for Flayer in Jund, I think he can possibly take the slot of lavamancer, and maybe drop scooze to a singleton plus one scooze in SB
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
How would you get delirium in a strictly creature-based aggro plan?
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
But what's the point of playing Grim Flayer if you can't reach delirium?
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I mean if you're seriously behind on board and will gain cards by terminusing, I don't see a huge risk. Especially if you're in a traverse shell where you can traverse for your threats you put back in the deck.
I think it'd probably be a sideboard card.
Still, jamming 4 entreats feels like potentially gross with courser and flayer. They're super powerful and courser helps turn on flayer for delirium too. resolving an entreat for 3 feels likely to be game over for most decks.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Late-game Grim Flayers are 4/4's, not 2/2's, so they're no longer crappy.
With that being said, I've tested Grim Flayer in a Jund mirror and Scavenging Ooze does a great job of shrinking Grim Flayers back down to 2/2's. That's a fairly big strike against Flayer, and some of why I'm still uncomfortable with the card outside of Suicide Zoo (where a 2/2 with Trample built-in is great, especially in a deck where every single creature has a "Kill Me" sign on it, and connecting once is likely game over and easier to do with pump spells).
Hes not good then either. The only reason to run man lands in modern is either for over running, or attrition. When over running, like for example, affinity, you will never hit the 6 lands, because you want to win the game fast. they still also play it because mostly the second point, attrition. For the removal deck (jund/junk) it lets you keep up removal, then use man lands if you dont have creatures, and for the non removal deck (zoo, affinity) it lets you win attrition, because when you get one for oned, you still can beat down.
Either way, you wont have 6 lands or he wont be alive. Advocate is bad.
This is really the only way its getting used. It will only ever see play in a grave deck, that wants stuff in its yard while being aggressive, or it wants to be in a aggressive deck that doesnt mind the sorting. Grave decks got better options, even at two mana, as we can see dredge filling those slots with free creatures, or ways to dredge harder. If it said draw, it might see play in dredgevine, as a way to activate vine. Death shadow zoo decks MIGHT want him since trample and Become Immense delves, and he sets up some stuff for them. You have to compare him to steppe lynx, which is more damage short term, nacatl, and even Gnarlwood Dryad, which can be a 5-8 nacatl for that deck... all of which is at 1 mana. And in terms of raw damage, goyf still might win there because its 4/5 or higher even when flayer is 4/4.
The midrange decks will always run goyf over it. Can it set up some cool stuff for them, maybe even enable dredge or lingering souls? Yes. But if you ask any junk, jund, bug players about this or goyf, they will pick goyf because goyf blocks aggro and wins, and can do more damage more reliably than him against control.
And I know... WHY NOT RUN GOYF AND THIS?! the answer is simple. Because you'll run tasigur or angler over this. Well he sets up dredge, so run all 3. Well no, you'll want ooze over this. It shrinks mirror goyfs and tasigurs down, while hurting grave decks and snapcaster. And why not run all of them? Because you need slots for removal too. At the end of the day, this is a card that COULD be strong enough to see play, but you'll never run it because it has better options in all the decks that would run it. Its not that it doesnt have a home. It does, but those decks are too advanced to run it.
I think in a "traditional" G/B/X Delve centered list Grim Flayer is not the card you want. In a list that wants Delirium, he is. You are able to run traverse along side him for no additional deck building costs. Traverse even helps to turn on Delirium if need be. If you are in R, then Bedlam Reveler can come along for the ride as well.
The question that remains is, what is a better shell? The Delve or the Delirium one.
Delve gives you :
Delirium gives you:
Its not a contest. My point remains. All of the cards listed are all worse then their already existing counterparts.
That is what people where saying when the dredge cards where fist being built around. Especial in Grix Delver. Though Scour is a crappy card in any other deck. In U based Delve decks it makes them work.
I am not saying 1 is better the the other for sure. Grim flayer is def weaker then goyf once you get over 5 types in the GY. I would never suggest that Grim Flayer is a replacement. I would say that it can help you have Goyf 5-8 in decks that want that type of thing. Traverse is an amazing card once you Delirium. It become a slightly worse Green Suns Zenith. Bedlam Reveler is an amazing card when you can play and get the full impact.
What I am saying the jury is still out. Bauble may end up filling the Thought Sour roll in the Delirium shell. Architects of Will might work out as well. Personally I could see a R/G/X Delirium shell and a G/B/X shell going in and out of favor as the meta shift.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
If lots of people are raving about Grim Flayer in Jund, has anyone besides me tried the 4 Eternal Scourge-2 Memoricide equivalent package in Jund? I've found that the package gives Jund an insane late-game and more resistance to Blood Moon. I suspect it gives up a little early game compared to Grim Flayer, but the late-game is so insane that it generally beats Grim Flayer.
That's another reason why I'm convinced Jund's a fairly bad deck for Grim Flayer--it's tough to turn on Delirium by Turn 5 in Jund, I tend to stack planeswalkers on TOP with Flayer strikes so Flayer stays shrunk, and I suspect Jund is better off with the Eternal Scourge package.
I'll playtest some more Jund mirrors tonight (Jund with Grim Flayer vs. Jund with my Eternal Scourge package), but in my testing, the Jund mirror was actually a fairly bad matchup for Jund Grim Flayer because of opposing Scavenging Ooze reliably eliminating Delirium. ...Let alone all the removal flying around and Goyfs set up to block.
I suspect that Grim Flayer performs better against combo and hyper-aggro-that-doesn't-block-Flayer (such as Affinity and Infect). Eternal Scourge is probably slower in those match-ups.
In my experience, Grim Flayer's trigger doesn't turn on his own Delirium unless all I'm missing are lands, sorceries, and/or instants. I don't tend to reliably get Delirium in any deck that doesn't self-mill with unconditional cards and doesn't play artifacts, enchantments, or tribal until Turn 8.
Assume the decklists are the same (24 lands, 4 Bobs, 4 Goyfs, 2 Scavenging Oozes, 3 Lilianas, 3 Inquisition of Kozilek, 2 Kolaghan's Command, etc.) with the following changes from Flayer Jund to Scourge Jund:
Here are the results of the first 20 straight games. Assume that "Scourge wins" means Scourge Jund wins, "Flayer wins" means Flayer Jund wins, and both Memoricide and Cranial Extraction get called "Cranial":
A summary of the above:
I think that Grim Flayer is good in Jund and I didn't know where it would fit. I didn't know what would get cut, but now that I can see a list, it is interesting to see them get a new tool.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
There have been a few brews floating around. The core problem for modern is that BUG lacks Bolt for reach. Delve and Delirium do not play that well together that well either. You end up having to Delve away cards you need for Delirium. There have been some theory crafting on a 4 color deck that splashes R for bolt / terminate though.
There may be a more discard heavy BUG list that use Whispers of Emrakul, Traverse, and flayer.