There have been a few brews floating around. The core problem for modern is that BUG lacks Bolt for reach. Delve and Delirium do not play that well together that well either. You end up having to Delve away cards you need for Delirium. There have been some theory crafting on a 4 color deck that splashes R for bolt / terminate though.
There may be a more discard heavy BUG list that use Whispers of Emrakul, Traverse, and flayer.
You can just play disfigure to deal with early creatures since there actually aren't that many 3 toughness creatures in modern. You don't have to play Tasigur since you have so many 4 power creatures now for the denial.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
You can just play disfigure to deal with early creatures since there actually aren't that many 3 toughness creatures in modern. You don't have to play Tasigur since you have so many 4 power creatures now for the denial.
The creature removal sweat for BUG is good. You have Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, Murderous cut, Nameless Inversion, Disfigure, Doom Blade, and Go for the throat. Bolt is not just to kill creatures though. It gives you reach. Bolt + snap gives you a way to close out games. That is why Jund does better then Junk, despite Junk having Path to Exile.
I really want BUG to be a deck. I played Team America in Legacy for a while. Modern is a Bolt format though. If you are not running it, you need to have a good reason not to.
I just want to make a statement, which many people will be surprised:
Grim Flayer wins easier than Bob if uncontested. Bob draws 2 cards per turn, Flayer between 2 and 3 basically while being a faster clock (normally, after you connect once he is a 4/4). Furthermore, he has the keyword "Trample" which so many people do not respect at all. It gives you "reach" in a colours, where you traditionally lacked them (BG Rock and BUG). We tested him quite a lot and it was just disgusting what he was capable of doing ^^
There have been a few brews floating around. The core problem for modern is that BUG lacks Bolt for reach. Delve and Delirium do not play that well together that well either. You end up having to Delve away cards you need for Delirium. There have been some theory crafting on a 4 color deck that splashes R for bolt / terminate though.
There may be a more discard heavy BUG list that use Whispers of Emrakul, Traverse, and flayer.
You can just play disfigure to deal with early creatures since there actually aren't that many 3 toughness creatures in modern. You don't have to play Tasigur since you have so many 4 power creatures now for the denial.
You know what is better than Disfigure? Dead Weight
It is better in the Midrange Mirror (cause it breaks the Goyf stalemates open), is still a 1 Mana "removal" spell when you really need it, it supports delirium quite nicely and it just laughs at Infect (the Infecter will die regardless of what the opponent does BUT when he has a Vines/Blessing or Manland, which is a pain either way).
So yeah, we were really surprised how good that card actually is.
Tested roughly 15 pre board match-ups vs each of them (but Faeries, here only 8). The deck is really robust and due to the Bolt proof aspect of it (every creature is Bolt proof if you have Delirum), Bolt becomes kinda silly vs you.
So yeah, I rate the card really high. Due to Grim Flayer, there might be a competitive BUG deck.
Greetings,
Kathal
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Dead Weight is an interesting card to use. I was looking at Nameless Inversion to fill the same spot. Have you looked any of the cycle cards like Architects of Will? They get you 2 types in the yard. If you fetched you are at 3 types on turn 1. Makes getting Delirium very easy at that point.
The problem with Architect of Will is, that you are starting to play bad cards just to enable a good card, when you do not need the bad cards to begin with.
That is the main beef I have with most Grim Flayer lists. They start to run way to many bad cards (and don't get me wrong, something like Bubble, Dead Weight, Architect of Will, Tarfire, Seal of Fire,... ARE bad cards) to enable a strategy. However, at that point you have to ask yourself, if the pay off is worth the investment. Most of the times the question can be answered with: no.
So, pls stop to play such gimmick cards like Architect, which is just garbage.
As for the deck you posted, you deck misses at least 1 land, more likely 2. Travers as playset is not good (especially in such a shell) + you have not a single utility card, which is not good. Wwhen you run Traverse, you do it for two reasons: land fixing (fetching a basic) and grabbing utility cards. When you kick it for one reason (grabbing utility creatures), than it loses quite a lot of strength. Hence, something like 1 Mandrills/Tasigur/Clique/Finks/... would be ideally MD (just as a pre board bullet vs rough match-ups).
The next problem with your shell is:
It is a Midrange deck (Inqui and Whispers), while it tries to play the Delver game (Delver, Goyf, Denial, Leak). However, those two strategies cannot be mashed together in Modern when playing the BUG colours.
The thing, on what Delver decks excel at is, that you deploy a threat and you can interact with the opponent with very cheap spells, which lose quite some value over the game (Spell Pierce, Denial, Remand, Leak, Spell Snare, just to name a couple).
However, when implementing Discard, you suddenly have to play in your turn (even worse, in your mainphase), which makes the classic reactive style of Delver impossible. Hence, you want to keep Mana up (for counters and removal), but need to tap out due to the discard spells (or rather the high amount of Sorcs you are playing). Thus, you will have always the struggle of keeping your creatures alive while trying to interact with your opponent.
BUG Delver is because of this exact reason not modern viable, or let say it this way, as long as DRS is banned it is not viable. DRS fixed the 2 major problems you have: Mana (cause of the many Sorcs you want to play) and reach (no Burn).
Greetings,
Kathal
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I just want to make a statement, which many people will be surprised:
Grim Flayer wins easier than Bob if uncontested. Bob draws 2 cards per turn, Flayer between 2 and 3 basically while being a faster clock (normally, after you connect once he is a 4/4). Furthermore, he has the keyword "Trample" which so many people do not respect at all. It gives you "reach" in a colours, where you traditionally lacked them (BG Rock and BUG). We tested him quite a lot and it was just disgusting what he was capable of doing ^^
There have been a few brews floating around. The core problem for modern is that BUG lacks Bolt for reach. Delve and Delirium do not play that well together that well either. You end up having to Delve away cards you need for Delirium. There have been some theory crafting on a 4 color deck that splashes R for bolt / terminate though.
There may be a more discard heavy BUG list that use Whispers of Emrakul, Traverse, and flayer.
You can just play disfigure to deal with early creatures since there actually aren't that many 3 toughness creatures in modern. You don't have to play Tasigur since you have so many 4 power creatures now for the denial.
You know what is better than Disfigure? Dead Weight
It is better in the Midrange Mirror (cause it breaks the Goyf stalemates open), is still a 1 Mana "removal" spell when you really need it, it supports delirium quite nicely and it just laughs at Infect (the Infecter will die regardless of what the opponent does BUT when he has a Vines/Blessing or Manland, which is a pain either way).
So yeah, we were really surprised how good that card actually is.
Tested roughly 15 pre board match-ups vs each of them (but Faeries, here only 8). The deck is really robust and due to the Bolt proof aspect of it (every creature is Bolt proof if you have Delirum), Bolt becomes kinda silly vs you.
So yeah, I rate the card really high. Due to Grim Flayer, there might be a competitive BUG deck.
Greetings,
Kathal
Dead weight seems good nice find!!!, mana leak doesn't seem good when you have 8 two drops in your deck (where is Scooze?), Tasigur seems like anti synergy to delirium, New liliana seems decent as a 1 of main and 1 side (2 in 75), and personally I would play snare and up your denial count to three.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
The problem with Architect of Will is, that you are starting to play bad cards just to enable a good card, when you do not need the bad cards to begin with.
That is the main beef I have with most Grim Flayer lists. They start to run way to many bad cards (and don't get me wrong, something like Bubble, Dead Weight, Architect of Will, Tarfire, Seal of Fire,... ARE bad cards) to enable a strategy. However, at that point you have to ask yourself, if the pay off is worth the investment. Most of the times the question can be answered with: no.
So, pls stop to play such gimmick cards like Architect, which is just garbage.
As for the deck you posted, you deck misses at least 1 land, more likely 2. Travers as playset is not good (especially in such a shell) + you have not a single utility card, which is not good. Wwhen you run Traverse, you do it for two reasons: land fixing (fetching a basic) and grabbing utility cards. When you kick it for one reason (grabbing utility creatures), than it loses quite a lot of strength. Hence, something like 1 Mandrills/Tasigur/Clique/Finks/... would be ideally MD (just as a pre board bullet vs rough match-ups).
The next problem with your shell is:
It is a Midrange deck (Inqui and Whispers), while it tries to play the Delver game (Delver, Goyf, Denial, Leak). However, those two strategies cannot be mashed together in Modern when playing the BUG colours.
The thing, on what Delver decks excel at is, that you deploy a threat and you can interact with the opponent with very cheap spells, which lose quite some value over the game (Spell Pierce, Denial, Remand, Leak, Spell Snare, just to name a couple).
However, when implementing Discard, you suddenly have to play in your turn (even worse, in your mainphase), which makes the classic reactive style of Delver impossible. Hence, you want to keep Mana up (for counters and removal), but need to tap out due to the discard spells (or rather the high amount of Sorcs you are playing). Thus, you will have always the struggle of keeping your creatures alive while trying to interact with your opponent.
BUG Delver is because of this exact reason not modern viable, or let say it this way, as long as DRS is banned it is not viable. DRS fixed the 2 major problems you have: Mana (cause of the many Sorcs you want to play) and reach (no Burn).
Greetings,
Kathal
Like I said, it was just a quick idea, not a real deck. I don't think BUG delver is a shell that will work in Modern personally. Definitely not a list like I posted. If anything a 4 color shell would have a better shot.
As for playing bad cards to enable things, that was the same thing said about Thought Scour. It is a bad card in most decks. It was not played at all for a long time. In a Delve shell, it is good. Architects of Will cantrips at instant speed and gets you 2 types into the yard for U/B. That is 1/2 of Delirium in 1 card. With that said, Mishra's Bauble is probably a better card in this slot.
Dead weight seems good nice find!!!, mana leak doesn't seem good when you have 8 two drops in your deck (where is Scooze?), Tasigur seems like anti synergy to delirium, New liliana seems decent as a 1 of main and 1 side (2 in 75), and personally I would play snare and up your denial count to three.
Mana Leak is great in that shell, though Spell Snare might be even better. No Scooze cause to clunky for the Manabase + dies to Bolt (which the remaining creas do not). Delver and delirium is not a problem, as long as you do not overload on Delve. Furthermore, Flayer enables Delve quite nice ^^
Regarding Denial suggestion, if you could name me a slot, which we could cut, go ahead (you really do not want to run 61 cards). That is also the reason, why there are no Travers in the deck, we have no room for them :/
Like I said, it was just a quick idea, not a real deck. I don't think BUG delver is a shell that will work in Modern personally. Definitely not a list like I posted. If anything a 4 color shell would have a better shot.
As for playing bad cards to enable things, that was the same thing said about Thought Scour. It is a bad card in most decks. It was not played at all for a long time. In a Delve shell, it is good. Architects of Will cantrips at instant speed and gets you 2 types into the yard for U/B. That is 1/2 of Delirium in 1 card. With that said, Mishra's Bauble is probably a better card in this slot.
The difference is, that Thought Scour also helps out K. Command and Snapcaster, so it is not as bad as Architect ^^
Greetings,
Kathal
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
The difference is, that Thought Scour also helps out K. Command and Snapcaster, so it is not as bad as Architect ^^
Architects of Will helps out Grim Flayer, Goyf, and Traverse. All 4 ofs in most decks. But like I said, Bauble is probably the better card. The only reason I am even looking at it I am having a hard time trading for Baubles right now.
Dead weight seems good nice find!!!, mana leak doesn't seem good when you have 8 two drops in your deck (where is Scooze?), Tasigur seems like anti synergy to delirium, New liliana seems decent as a 1 of main and 1 side (2 in 75), and personally I would play snare and up your denial count to three.
Mana Leak is great in that shell, though Spell Snare might be even better. No Scooze cause to clunky for the Manabase + dies to Bolt (which the remaining creas do not). Delver and delirium is not a problem, as long as you do not overload on Delve. Furthermore, Flayer enables Delve quite nice ^^
Regarding Denial suggestion, if you could name me a slot, which we could cut, go ahead (you really do not want to run 61 cards). That is also the reason, why there are no Travers in the deck, we have no room for them :/
Like I said, it was just a quick idea, not a real deck. I don't think BUG delver is a shell that will work in Modern personally. Definitely not a list like I posted. If anything a 4 color shell would have a better shot.
As for playing bad cards to enable things, that was the same thing said about Thought Scour. It is a bad card in most decks. It was not played at all for a long time. In a Delve shell, it is good. Architects of Will cantrips at instant speed and gets you 2 types into the yard for U/B. That is 1/2 of Delirium in 1 card. With that said, Mishra's Bauble is probably a better card in this slot.
The difference is, that Thought Scour also helps out K. Command and Snapcaster, so it is not as bad as Architect ^^
Greetings,
Kathal
Scavenging ooze "dying to bolt" is no excuse to not run the card now that graveyard is so prevalent right now. Dredge is a tier 1 deck right now and that card flat hoses it and other aggro strats that are tier 1/2. Mana Leak is super clunky in that build since you are running so many sorceries/2 drop, and Jace VP is probably better than snap in your list tbh.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Dead weight seems good nice find!!!, mana leak doesn't seem good when you have 8 two drops in your deck (where is Scooze?), Tasigur seems like anti synergy to delirium, New liliana seems decent as a 1 of main and 1 side (2 in 75), and personally I would play snare and up your denial count to three.
Mana Leak is great in that shell, though Spell Snare might be even better. No Scooze cause to clunky for the Manabase + dies to Bolt (which the remaining creas do not). Delver and delirium is not a problem, as long as you do not overload on Delve. Furthermore, Flayer enables Delve quite nice ^^
Regarding Denial suggestion, if you could name me a slot, which we could cut, go ahead (you really do not want to run 61 cards). That is also the reason, why there are no Travers in the deck, we have no room for them :/
Like I said, it was just a quick idea, not a real deck. I don't think BUG delver is a shell that will work in Modern personally. Definitely not a list like I posted. If anything a 4 color shell would have a better shot.
As for playing bad cards to enable things, that was the same thing said about Thought Scour. It is a bad card in most decks. It was not played at all for a long time. In a Delve shell, it is good. Architects of Will cantrips at instant speed and gets you 2 types into the yard for U/B. That is 1/2 of Delirium in 1 card. With that said, Mishra's Bauble is probably a better card in this slot.
The difference is, that Thought Scour also helps out K. Command and Snapcaster, so it is not as bad as Architect ^^
Greetings,
Kathal
Scavenging ooze "dying to bolt" is no excuse to not run the card now that graveyard is so prevalent right now. Dredge is a tier 1 deck right now and that card flat hoses it and other aggro strats that are tier 1/2. Mana Leak is super clunky in that build since you are running so many sorceries/2 drop, and Jace VP is probably better than snap in your list tbh.
BUG lends it self to a more proactive "tap out control" style. So Jace VP may work well in the shell. Much like he works well in the Grix control decks.
Scavenging ooze "dying to bolt" is no excuse to not run the card now that graveyard is so prevalent right now. Dredge is a tier 1 deck right now and that card flat hoses it and other aggro strats that are tier 1/2. Mana Leak is super clunky in that build since you are running so many sorceries/2 drop, and Jace VP is probably better than snap in your list tbh.
If you think, that Ooze is an out vs Dredge you gonna have a bad time.
Heck, Ooze doesn't hose anything. He just does everything medicore, which is still better than nothing when playing against Dredge. If you want to beat Dredge, Surgical, Leyline of the Void and Yixlid Jailer are the cards you want to look at.
Greetings,
Kathal
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Scavenging ooze "dying to bolt" is no excuse to not run the card now that graveyard is so prevalent right now. Dredge is a tier 1 deck right now and that card flat hoses it and other aggro strats that are tier 1/2. Mana Leak is super clunky in that build since you are running so many sorceries/2 drop, and Jace VP is probably better than snap in your list tbh.
If you think, that Ooze is an out vs Dredge you gonna have a bad time.
Heck, Ooze doesn't hose anything. He just does everything medicore, which is still better than nothing when playing against Dredge. If you want to beat Dredge, Surgical, Leyline of the Void and Yixlid Jailer are the cards you want to look at.
Greetings,
Kathal
You're not playing mana dorks so it's different, but the amount of games I've won off of turn 2 Ooze with a mana dork against dredge is crazy. When you're just playing stronger cards, it helps seal a win.
On too of that, a well played ooze is Bolt proof and critically powerful against zoo and BGx. The life gain is so important. The card does nothing mediocre: it's a late game monster that sometimes shows up early. But if you're in green, you probably need to look hard at ooze if you want to play fair magic.
Scavenging ooze "dying to bolt" is no excuse to not run the card now that graveyard is so prevalent right now. Dredge is a tier 1 deck right now and that card flat hoses it and other aggro strats that are tier 1/2. Mana Leak is super clunky in that build since you are running so many sorceries/2 drop, and Jace VP is probably better than snap in your list tbh.
If you think, that Ooze is an out vs Dredge you gonna have a bad time.
Heck, Ooze doesn't hose anything. He just does everything medicore, which is still better than nothing when playing against Dredge. If you want to beat Dredge, Surgical, Leyline of the Void and Yixlid Jailer are the cards you want to look at.
Greetings,
Kathal
It isn't an out against dredge but it's a great mainboard answer to the deck until you bring in the cages.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Scavenging ooze "dying to bolt" is no excuse to not run the card now that graveyard is so prevalent right now. Dredge is a tier 1 deck right now and that card flat hoses it and other aggro strats that are tier 1/2. Mana Leak is super clunky in that build since you are running so many sorceries/2 drop, and Jace VP is probably better than snap in your list tbh.
If you think, that Ooze is an out vs Dredge you gonna have a bad time.
Heck, Ooze doesn't hose anything. He just does everything medicore, which is still better than nothing when playing against Dredge. If you want to beat Dredge, Surgical, Leyline of the Void and Yixlid Jailer are the cards you want to look at.
Greetings,
Kathal
You're not playing mana dorks so it's different, but the amount of games I've won off of turn 2 Ooze with a mana dork against dredge is crazy. When you're just playing stronger cards, it helps seal a win.
On too of that, a well played ooze is Bolt proof and critically powerful against zoo and BGx. The life gain is so important. The card does nothing mediocre: it's a late game monster that sometimes shows up early. But if you're in green, you probably need to look hard at ooze if you want to play fair magic.
As a Dredge player, I second all of the above: Turn 2 Ooze with G open (only possible with Turn 1 mana dork) cracks down on Dredge hard enough to win fairly consistently (get Dredgers if you're lucky, get Narcos and Bloodghasts if you're not, but above all else, get Conflagrate first). Turn 2 Ooze without any mana open risks getting outraced and/or Conflagrated (or even worse, Collective Brutality'd in Game 1).
I really doubt that there will be any Dredge deck in the Top 8 (if any make the Top 8) without Conflagrate. It's a maindeck out against Ooze that's awesome against faster aggro decks and forces Lantern Control to Surgical Extraction it.
Back on topic, I've found that a well-managed Ooze will shut down Delirium for as long as it stays alive. Good luck making Grim Flayer work past that.
Almost everybody in the Jund thread is running him now, with lots of people raving about him in the deck. We're also seeing him pop up in published winning MODO Jund lists.
If lots of people are raving about Grim Flayer in Jund, has anyone besides me tried the 4 Eternal Scourge-2 Memoricide equivalent package in Jund? I've found that the package gives Jund an insane late-game and more resistance to Blood Moon. I suspect it gives up a little early game compared to Grim Flayer, but the late-game is so insane that it generally beats Grim Flayer.
That's another reason why I'm convinced Jund's a fairly bad deck for Grim Flayer--it's tough to turn on Delirium by Turn 5 in Jund, I tend to stack planeswalkers on TOP with Flayer strikes so Flayer stays shrunk, and I suspect Jund is better off with the Eternal Scourge package.
With the testing I've done and with actual results confirming that Grim is at least potentially viable in competitive Jund I'm having a hard time understanding the negativity that Flayer is taking here. Flayer has been great in testing for me, Delirium isn't that difficult to switch on in an actual "non goldfish" game of MTG when playing Jund. I've noticed most of the people here criticizing Flayer seem to literally just be pointing out faults of the card which those of us thought about it before testing it out for ourselves. Later, when actually testing it, most of us found it to be much more resilient than theorycrafting the negatives led us to believe. Test the card out for yourselves guys, seriously.
It's the cards he competes against. Jund has no room at all in their lists for "fun guys" like this usually. Goyf and Scooze take up the lions share of construction space. Dont forget how many amazing cards jund has access to.
So basically, cut dark confidant for grim flayer, and the grim flayer isn't too bad?
Some articles on CFB and SCG have advocated dropping Bob for Flayer and then being able to either go more into Delirium with Bauble and Tarfire or add Bedlam Reveler at the top-end which, without Bob, seems pretty cool.
But I believe that a perfect Jund creature base right now is 4 Bob, 4 Goyf, 2 Scooze, 2 Flayer, 2 Kalitas, 3 Raging Ravine.
It's been a while. And I don't really see Grim Flayer around much anymore; sure, it makes the occasional appearance, but it seems to have been phased out of many standardized lists. For example, most Jund decks don't run it anymore; instead it's some combination of Bloodbraid, Goyf, Bob, and Ooze. Junk, G/B, and some Traverse decks can and do run it on occasion, but even there it seems rare nowadays.
So what's up with this card? Is the format just not right for it right now? Are the spots it would be in being filled by stuff like Ooze because of the prevalence of GY decks? Etc...
Modern deck builders like their novelty and Flayer does show up once in a while. They just don't show up very often anymore in the main stream. I've seen them used heavily in budget lists due to the price of Bob being a barrier. Modern cards hold value the hardest of any format, even legacy. I can easily get into a bidding war on wasteland and get it under the value sold by most stores, but if I run into a bidding war on any of the major players of modern it can turn ugly quickly.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
It's been a while. And I don't really see Grim Flayer around much anymore; sure, it makes the occasional appearance, but it seems to have been phased out of many standardized lists. For example, most Jund decks don't run it anymore; instead it's some combination of Bloodbraid, Goyf, Bob, and Ooze. Junk, G/B, and some Traverse decks can and do run it on occasion, but even there it seems rare nowadays.
So what's up with this card? Is the format just not right for it right now? Are the spots it would be in being filled by stuff like Ooze because of the prevalence of GY decks? Etc...
Flayer was a card filtering plus evasion card. Once Bloodbraid got unbanned the Jund lists streamlined and with her card advantage + Bob you didn't need Flayer's filtering. There was also a long while before Bloodbraid was unbanned where B/G/x decks just weren't good meta calls.
I'm not a Death's Shadow player, but you did make some very interesting points in that article in favor of a Jund build over a Grixis one. I especially like your "Tarmogoyf's Smaller, but Smarter Brother" line to describe Grim Flayer. I also agree with your point about playing Faithless Looting with Grim Flayer being key.
Overall, Grim Flayer just does so much useful stuff that some players don't appreciate and some decks (like traditional Jund midrange perhaps) can't take advantage of. This has me thinking that the real "home" for this card isn't just as a value throw-in to Jund, Abzan, or G/B. No. It's never going to provide more value there than Dark Confidant, Bloodbraid Elf, or Tireless Tracker. Grim Flayer truly shines in decks that use the GY a bit heavier and actually focus on getting Delirium quickly.
You can just play disfigure to deal with early creatures since there actually aren't that many 3 toughness creatures in modern. You don't have to play Tasigur since you have so many 4 power creatures now for the denial.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
The creature removal sweat for BUG is good. You have Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, Murderous cut, Nameless Inversion, Disfigure, Doom Blade, and Go for the throat. Bolt is not just to kill creatures though. It gives you reach. Bolt + snap gives you a way to close out games. That is why Jund does better then Junk, despite Junk having Path to Exile.
I really want BUG to be a deck. I played Team America in Legacy for a while. Modern is a Bolt format though. If you are not running it, you need to have a good reason not to.
Grim Flayer wins easier than Bob if uncontested. Bob draws 2 cards per turn, Flayer between 2 and 3 basically while being a faster clock (normally, after you connect once he is a 4/4). Furthermore, he has the keyword "Trample" which so many people do not respect at all. It gives you "reach" in a colours, where you traditionally lacked them (BG Rock and BUG). We tested him quite a lot and it was just disgusting what he was capable of doing ^^
The shell we were testing: http://deckstats.net/decks/598/542896-bug-pile-1-0/de
The only thing we were unsure is, if the new Lilli is stronger than the old one and how many planeswalker you want to actually run.
You know what is better than Disfigure? Dead Weight
It is better in the Midrange Mirror (cause it breaks the Goyf stalemates open), is still a 1 Mana "removal" spell when you really need it, it supports delirium quite nicely and it just laughs at Infect (the Infecter will die regardless of what the opponent does BUT when he has a Vines/Blessing or Manland, which is a pain either way).
So yeah, we were really surprised how good that card actually is.
Tested against:
Traditional Jund (3 Kalitas)
Grixis Midrange/Control
Faeries
Affinity
Infect
RUG Travers Eternal Ruse
Tested roughly 15 pre board match-ups vs each of them (but Faeries, here only 8). The deck is really robust and due to the Bolt proof aspect of it (every creature is Bolt proof if you have Delirum), Bolt becomes kinda silly vs you.
So yeah, I rate the card really high. Due to Grim Flayer, there might be a competitive BUG deck.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Edit:
Ruff deck idea to show what I was talking about
4 Grim Flayer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Whispers of Emrakul
4 Stubborn Denial
2 Mana Leak
1 Nameless Inversion
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Architects of Will
4 Serum Visions
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Watery Grave
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
That is the main beef I have with most Grim Flayer lists. They start to run way to many bad cards (and don't get me wrong, something like Bubble, Dead Weight, Architect of Will, Tarfire, Seal of Fire,... ARE bad cards) to enable a strategy. However, at that point you have to ask yourself, if the pay off is worth the investment. Most of the times the question can be answered with: no.
So, pls stop to play such gimmick cards like Architect, which is just garbage.
As for the deck you posted, you deck misses at least 1 land, more likely 2. Travers as playset is not good (especially in such a shell) + you have not a single utility card, which is not good. Wwhen you run Traverse, you do it for two reasons: land fixing (fetching a basic) and grabbing utility cards. When you kick it for one reason (grabbing utility creatures), than it loses quite a lot of strength. Hence, something like 1 Mandrills/Tasigur/Clique/Finks/... would be ideally MD (just as a pre board bullet vs rough match-ups).
The next problem with your shell is:
It is a Midrange deck (Inqui and Whispers), while it tries to play the Delver game (Delver, Goyf, Denial, Leak). However, those two strategies cannot be mashed together in Modern when playing the BUG colours.
The thing, on what Delver decks excel at is, that you deploy a threat and you can interact with the opponent with very cheap spells, which lose quite some value over the game (Spell Pierce, Denial, Remand, Leak, Spell Snare, just to name a couple).
However, when implementing Discard, you suddenly have to play in your turn (even worse, in your mainphase), which makes the classic reactive style of Delver impossible. Hence, you want to keep Mana up (for counters and removal), but need to tap out due to the discard spells (or rather the high amount of Sorcs you are playing). Thus, you will have always the struggle of keeping your creatures alive while trying to interact with your opponent.
BUG Delver is because of this exact reason not modern viable, or let say it this way, as long as DRS is banned it is not viable. DRS fixed the 2 major problems you have: Mana (cause of the many Sorcs you want to play) and reach (no Burn).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Dead weight seems good nice find!!!, mana leak doesn't seem good when you have 8 two drops in your deck (where is Scooze?), Tasigur seems like anti synergy to delirium, New liliana seems decent as a 1 of main and 1 side (2 in 75), and personally I would play snare and up your denial count to three.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Like I said, it was just a quick idea, not a real deck. I don't think BUG delver is a shell that will work in Modern personally. Definitely not a list like I posted. If anything a 4 color shell would have a better shot.
As for playing bad cards to enable things, that was the same thing said about Thought Scour. It is a bad card in most decks. It was not played at all for a long time. In a Delve shell, it is good. Architects of Will cantrips at instant speed and gets you 2 types into the yard for U/B. That is 1/2 of Delirium in 1 card. With that said, Mishra's Bauble is probably a better card in this slot.
Mana Leak is great in that shell, though Spell Snare might be even better. No Scooze cause to clunky for the Manabase + dies to Bolt (which the remaining creas do not). Delver and delirium is not a problem, as long as you do not overload on Delve. Furthermore, Flayer enables Delve quite nice ^^
Regarding Denial suggestion, if you could name me a slot, which we could cut, go ahead (you really do not want to run 61 cards). That is also the reason, why there are no Travers in the deck, we have no room for them :/
The difference is, that Thought Scour also helps out K. Command and Snapcaster, so it is not as bad as Architect ^^
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Architects of Will helps out Grim Flayer, Goyf, and Traverse. All 4 ofs in most decks. But like I said, Bauble is probably the better card. The only reason I am even looking at it I am having a hard time trading for Baubles right now.
Scavenging ooze "dying to bolt" is no excuse to not run the card now that graveyard is so prevalent right now. Dredge is a tier 1 deck right now and that card flat hoses it and other aggro strats that are tier 1/2. Mana Leak is super clunky in that build since you are running so many sorceries/2 drop, and Jace VP is probably better than snap in your list tbh.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
BUG lends it self to a more proactive "tap out control" style. So Jace VP may work well in the shell. Much like he works well in the Grix control decks.
If you think, that Ooze is an out vs Dredge you gonna have a bad time.
Heck, Ooze doesn't hose anything. He just does everything medicore, which is still better than nothing when playing against Dredge. If you want to beat Dredge, Surgical, Leyline of the Void and Yixlid Jailer are the cards you want to look at.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
You're not playing mana dorks so it's different, but the amount of games I've won off of turn 2 Ooze with a mana dork against dredge is crazy. When you're just playing stronger cards, it helps seal a win.
On too of that, a well played ooze is Bolt proof and critically powerful against zoo and BGx. The life gain is so important. The card does nothing mediocre: it's a late game monster that sometimes shows up early. But if you're in green, you probably need to look hard at ooze if you want to play fair magic.
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
It isn't an out against dredge but it's a great mainboard answer to the deck until you bring in the cages.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
As a Dredge player, I second all of the above: Turn 2 Ooze with G open (only possible with Turn 1 mana dork) cracks down on Dredge hard enough to win fairly consistently (get Dredgers if you're lucky, get Narcos and Bloodghasts if you're not, but above all else, get Conflagrate first). Turn 2 Ooze without any mana open risks getting outraced and/or Conflagrated (or even worse, Collective Brutality'd in Game 1).
I really doubt that there will be any Dredge deck in the Top 8 (if any make the Top 8) without Conflagrate. It's a maindeck out against Ooze that's awesome against faster aggro decks and forces Lantern Control to Surgical Extraction it.
Back on topic, I've found that a well-managed Ooze will shut down Delirium for as long as it stays alive. Good luck making Grim Flayer work past that.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
But I believe that a perfect Jund creature base right now is 4 Bob, 4 Goyf, 2 Scooze, 2 Flayer, 2 Kalitas, 3 Raging Ravine.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
So what's up with this card? Is the format just not right for it right now? Are the spots it would be in being filled by stuff like Ooze because of the prevalence of GY decks? Etc...
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
http://www.mtgcanada.com/modern/playing-jund-shadow-not-grixis/
Overall, Grim Flayer just does so much useful stuff that some players don't appreciate and some decks (like traditional Jund midrange perhaps) can't take advantage of. This has me thinking that the real "home" for this card isn't just as a value throw-in to Jund, Abzan, or G/B. No. It's never going to provide more value there than Dark Confidant, Bloodbraid Elf, or Tireless Tracker. Grim Flayer truly shines in decks that use the GY a bit heavier and actually focus on getting Delirium quickly.