well, I'm clearly wrong then. I played extensively then and was going off memory. I certainly remember junk rites but can't recall ever seeing DRS.
I'd still dispute the "extremely potent" comment but that's more subjective and doesn't have anything to do with modern.
That's cuz you weren't wrong. I played that Standard heavily as well. The GP deck that won was not the "dominating" Junk Rites later. The Junk Rites that became dominating was the one that eventually became a reanimator/value deck with Resto Angel, Thragtusk, Angel of Serenity, Acidic Slime. I remember it got so bad people began using Acidic Slime to LD each other. DRS was in one of my sideboards as a GY hate card. If you look at Martin Jùza's sideboard in that winning GP deck, it's that sideboard that actually became the default best Junk Rites setup.
DRS in standard could not ramp properly. That's what kept it back from being Arbor Elf and Avacyn's Pilgrim. In Modern, it's the secret ramp card because of the fetches. You can even put it in a Grixis deck (like Grixis Delver) and it'll do great. The main problem with DRS in Modern however is it just flat out shuts down Snapcaster Mage and lets Black (or basically GBX decks) turn spells into 2dmg burn clocks. I don't think blue needs to be whipped any more.
So what are peoples opinions of the new Nissa, Vital Force? I've been milling about in standard mostly right now, but she feels pretty solid as far as Planeswalkers are concerned. She seems like a strict upgrade over Nissa, Worldwaker, though I have no idea where she's played.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
So what are peoples opinions of the new Nissa, Vital Force? I've been milling about in standard mostly right now, but she feels pretty solid as far as Planeswalkers are concerned. She seems like a strict upgrade over Nissa, Worldwaker, though I have no idea where she's played.
She has some potential for Green Devotion decks, but aside from that she's much too slow. 5 mana is one check against her, and requiring double green is another. She'd be best in a control/midrange shell that doesn't mind the mana cost and could benefit from the draw, and so she could possibly see play in Jund/Junk since she can +1 and then defend herself until Ulting for some serious draw power, but they have better draw power with Dark Confidant and she doesn't play nice with bob as it is. Being green makes her unlikely to appear in many other control/midrange shells.
Death Cloud might be able to use her since they used Worldwaker as a one-of in the best. The deck is super fringe though, but other than maybe a sideboard slot for Jund/Junk (A few people used Ob Nixilis, seems they'd compete for the slot).
Devotion decks might too since this Nissa will untap Nykthos.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
So what are peoples opinions of the new Nissa, Vital Force? I've been milling about in standard mostly right now, but she feels pretty solid as far as Planeswalkers are concerned. She seems like a strict upgrade over Nissa, Worldwaker, though I have no idea where she's played.
It MIGHT be okay in Valakut type decks because they can turn 3 it.
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I am not sure if it has been discussed already (without more digging through the last 25-ish pages) but Dubious Challenge has some neat interactions with flicker effects. Pulling off some huge creature (ie: Emrakul) and a flicker effect (ie: Flickerwisp, or worse Eldrazi Displacer, Faceless Butcher, Fiend Hunter, Mistmeadow Witch) then you can just flicker whatever card they choose and have your big wincon back at the end of the turn. Seems like an interesting interaction and doesn't restrict your deck to cmc<=3. Worth exploring?
On Nissa, Vital Force: After messing about with her for a week now, I would compare her to Koth of the Hammer. He comes down a turn earlier, but Nissa's ultimate is much, much stronger and she's got much more utility in her -3. If you ulti her, you've actually won the game, and you can do that the turn after you drop her. Getting a free, uncounterable Divination every turn is obscene. She is a must answer card and she can protect herself fairly well against most threats. Koth has seen only fringe play because the deck support for him just isn't that good. He wants to be in a "Big Red" style mountains matter deck, but it's just not supported well in Modern. Nissa's problem is her Mana cost, but I don't think it's as big a hurdle as people are implying. Her best friends are Fetches, Life from the Loam, Splendid Reclamation, Explore, Stubborn Denial, Deprive, Coiling Oracle, and Snapcaster Mage. This means that she wants to be in a UGx controlling shell. I suspect she'll find an early home in sideboards of UGR Scapeshift, to mixed success- since she basically is designed to win against the decks they're already quite good against. BGx midrange might pick her up, but they can't really protect her against her main threats- top-decked burn spells, Maelstrom Pulse, and Path to Exile. To the best of my knowledge, Sultai or Temur control is ultimately where she wants to be, but I don't know if she'll push it into viability.
Ultimately, I suspect that unless she ends up being good enough to spawn a new archetype, which I am cautiously optimistic about, she'll run into many of the same issues Koth got stuck with. She's got the prohibitive cost, she's got a similar (though stronger) game ending ulti, she's equally telegraphed, and the deck support is a bit slim. However, she has the advantage of being able to protect herself against creatures, she enables you to protect her against spells, she's got more utility, she's not as narrow as Koth is, and all of her effects are stronger.
I am not sure if it has been discussed already (without more digging through the last 25-ish pages) but Dubious Challenge has some neat interactions with flicker effects. Pulling off some huge creature (ie: Emrakul) and a flicker effect (ie: Flickerwisp, or worse Eldrazi Displacer, Faceless Butcher, Fiend Hunter, Mistmeadow Witch) then you can just flicker whatever card they choose and have your big wincon back at the end of the turn. Seems like an interesting interaction and doesn't restrict your deck to cmc<=3. Worth exploring?
I believe it is being explored with Congregation at Dawn, to set up a turn 4/5 Emrakul. I don't see it working in a deck that doesn't go all in on the combo, though. It kind of sucks as a value engine. I also see it as worse than comparable cards, like Nahiri or Through the Breach because it doesn't give haste.
Exactly. Koths Ultimate wins the game. Nissas Ultimate draws some Cards. Come on . . . you cant be serious
TLDR: I'm actually a great deal more serious than you two appear to be. "Draws some cards" indeed.
I would argue that being 4-8 cards up ends the game just as easily, if not moreso, than being able to ping for 1 with each of your mountains. Yes, you can very easily be 8 cards up with the Nissa emblem. Your opponent can interact with your ability use your lands as a finisher (off the top of my head: Leyline of Sanctity, Runed Halo, Hexproof/Shroud creatures, Creatures with a bigger butt than the number of mountains you've got, Regenerators) and Koth takes two turns to charge up. With Koth ult, you can lose to spell-based combo. That's happened to me before, playing Koth as part of a sideboard in Scapeshift. Playing Nissa... I suppose it's possible to lose when you're that many cards up, but I have yet to see it in my testing. I've got more answers than they have threats, and I can draw more threats than my opponents can answer. I know it seems counter intuitive, but when Nissa goes off, the game is won. It just hasn't ended yet.
Lost legacy keeps me thinking. is 3 mana for the effect... thats under the turn 4 modern deal. Might be worth having as a tool
IMO, it should be the primary Memoricide effect in the sideboard of non-BR, not-extraordinarily-creature-heavy-and-land-light decks. (Slaughter Games is better for BR decks because Scapeshift and Ad Nauseam can't counter it, and Stain the Mind is easier to cast in decks like Elves and Affinity. Additionally, RG Tron can't fix enough mana for Lost Legacy but can fix enough for Slaughter Games.) Being a 3-mana play is hot, hot, hot against increasingly faster combo decks, and opponents drawing at least one card from it is fairly rare. In decks like Melira Company, imagine casting Lost Legacy on Turn 2 on the play before they can counter it...
Not to mention that Lost Legacy lowers the curve of Eternal Scourge decks.
I was looking at Glimmer of Genius again, and I feel like it's surprisingly close to something I'd want for Modern. If energy became a huge thing, or a later set prints a similar card that replaces gaining energy with something more relevant or scrying deeper, I could potentially see it as something to test in Modern if the right deck existed that needed good instant speed dig at 4 cmc (like some kind of high end combo deck, something along the lines of Jeskai Ascendancy decks back during the brief time Modern had Dig Through Time?). It's pretty easy on the color requirements, scrys before drawing, is instant speed so you can wait to play it with answers in hand to play instead if the opponent lays down a major threat on their turn, and does more than just replace itself. I mean, I wish we could get an instant speed Concentrate, but I can't see that happening with how they handle Standard these days, and this is much closer to that than I actually thought they'd be willing to print, so maybe it's a good sign for the future, especially since I seem to recall comments from WotC people about blue needing better draw in Standard lately (so that it doesn't fall behind other colors like green and black).
I've had decent enough times with Steam Augury (even though the fact that it never gave me the best card in the top 5 made it suck against decks like Tron, which demand specific answers) that I've tried Glimmer of Genius in those same decks, even though I don't care about the Energy in them. I like Glimmer of Genius in those decks. The Scry 2 is great at digging for answers, and Tiago and Torrential Gearhulk get to have fun with recurring it.
Scry 2 is better than drawing one extra card (usually land) that you don't need...
Not always, especially in control. The 5th and 6th lands are often significantly harder to hit reliably than the 4th, and control is one of the few archetypes who want to get up to a high number of lands (things like ramp and valakut tend to be the others). Scry 2, thend draw two is probably tons better than draw three in combo, but in control, they're pretty close and draw three might sometimes edge it out, since control both wants more actual cards in hand, rather than just specific pieces, and since control actually likes having more lands mid-late game a lot more than most other decks do, since they often have higher cmc win conditions or want to be able to play multiple answers when the opponents start having enough lands in play to be playing multiple of their lower cmc win conditions.
I was looking at Glimmer of Genius again, and I feel like it's surprisingly close to something I'd want for Modern. If energy became a huge thing, or a later set prints a similar card that replaces gaining energy with something more relevant or scrying deeper, I could potentially see it as something to test in Modern if the right deck existed that needed good instant speed dig at 4 cmc (like some kind of high end combo deck, something along the lines of Jeskai Ascendancy decks back during the brief time Modern had Dig Through Time?). It's pretty easy on the color requirements, scrys before drawing, is instant speed so you can wait to play it with answers in hand to play instead if the opponent lays down a major threat on their turn, and does more than just replace itself. I mean, I wish we could get an instant speed Concentrate, but I can't see that happening with how they handle Standard these days, and this is much closer to that than I actually thought they'd be willing to print, so maybe it's a good sign for the future, especially since I seem to recall comments from WotC people about blue needing better draw in Standard lately (so that it doesn't fall behind other colors like green and black).
If control had an energy payoff card I would be a lot more interested.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Why would you play Glimmer when we have Think Twice which is better against LoTV/Discard decks, is better at hitting land drops, and allows us to be mana efficient per turn than Glimmer? Yes, the scry is nice, but it's not Fact or Fiction which is where a modern playable 4 mana draw spell needs to be imho. I suppose if you get to 6 mana and can snap it back, then it's better, but the floor is so much lower than TT imho. (The comparison is apt considering they're both +1CA)
Honestly, I think that Panharmonicon is another one of those cards that definitely is going to see places in modern after finally toying around with it. It has a Training Grounds kind of feel in that it just makes things that play alongside it better.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Is it ever viable to play Lost Legacy naming Eternal Scourge targeting yourself to effectively draw 8 cards?
Edit: Drawing between 4-8 cards for 1BB in a BGx deck is excellent. It's much more powerful than any other draw spell I can think of.
Is it ever viable to play Lost Legacy naming Eternal Scourge targeting yourself to effectively draw 8 cards?
Edit: Drawing between 4-8 cards for 1BB in a BGx deck is excellent. It's much more powerful than any other draw spell I can think of.
No cause you would need to have 4x Eternal Scourge in your hand which is not very likely and even if it happens you are kind of in the back foot.
Honestly, I think that Panharmonicon is another one of those cards that definitely is going to see places in modern after finally toying around with it. It has a Training Grounds kind of feel in that it just makes things that play alongside it better.
I tried Panharmonicon in Bant Eldrazi (it enables infinite combos there and buffs the ETB-happy Eldrazi). It felt like a waste of a card. I haven't been able to combo off once, and I typically got 0-2 additional triggers from it despite sticking Eldrazi Skyspawner in that deck. Not being to swing or block itself hurt.
Is it ever viable to play Lost Legacy naming Eternal Scourge targeting yourself to effectively draw 8 cards?
Edit: Drawing between 4-8 cards for 1BB in a BGx deck is excellent. It's much more powerful than any other draw spell I can think of.
No cause you would need to have 4x Eternal Scourge in your hand which is not very likely and even if it happens you are kind of in the back foot.
Oh, misread that part. Yeah, it's pretty bad then.
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Modern
Competitive: GW Hatebears - UG Infect - BGW Liege Rhino
Casual: GR Titan Ramp - BR Aggro
WIP: BUW Control Mill
Honestly, I think that Panharmonicon is another one of those cards that definitely is going to see places in modern after finally toying around with it. It has a Training Grounds kind of feel in that it just makes things that play alongside it better.
I tried Panharmonicon in Bant Eldrazi (it enables infinite combos there and buffs the ETB-happy Eldrazi). It felt like a waste of a card. I haven't been able to combo off once, and I typically got 0-2 additional triggers from it despite sticking Eldrazi Skyspawner in that deck. Not being to swing or block itself hurt.
I'm working on building a training grounds / Panharmonicon deck that makes use of Displacer and other flicker cards to trigger ETBs like Reflector Mage. The Panharmonicon basically works like training grounds 5-8 in that deck from how it played in mock up. Also, Gonti, lord of Luxury is bonkers and insanely fun. Played against tron and while it did backfire once, It's surprising how effective it is to go through the top 8 cards of their library and take the best cards away.
Not sure why people think cards at 4 cmc have to win the game outright when you can just slow the game down with the right counter measures.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
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I'd still dispute the "extremely potent" comment but that's more subjective and doesn't have anything to do with modern.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
That's cuz you weren't wrong. I played that Standard heavily as well. The GP deck that won was not the "dominating" Junk Rites later. The Junk Rites that became dominating was the one that eventually became a reanimator/value deck with Resto Angel, Thragtusk, Angel of Serenity, Acidic Slime. I remember it got so bad people began using Acidic Slime to LD each other. DRS was in one of my sideboards as a GY hate card. If you look at Martin Jùza's sideboard in that winning GP deck, it's that sideboard that actually became the default best Junk Rites setup.
DRS in standard could not ramp properly. That's what kept it back from being Arbor Elf and Avacyn's Pilgrim. In Modern, it's the secret ramp card because of the fetches. You can even put it in a Grixis deck (like Grixis Delver) and it'll do great. The main problem with DRS in Modern however is it just flat out shuts down Snapcaster Mage and lets Black (or basically GBX decks) turn spells into 2dmg burn clocks. I don't think blue needs to be whipped any more.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
She has some potential for Green Devotion decks, but aside from that she's much too slow. 5 mana is one check against her, and requiring double green is another. She'd be best in a control/midrange shell that doesn't mind the mana cost and could benefit from the draw, and so she could possibly see play in Jund/Junk since she can +1 and then defend herself until Ulting for some serious draw power, but they have better draw power with Dark Confidant and she doesn't play nice with bob as it is. Being green makes her unlikely to appear in many other control/midrange shells.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
Devotion decks might too since this Nissa will untap Nykthos.
It MIGHT be okay in Valakut type decks because they can turn 3 it.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Ultimately, I suspect that unless she ends up being good enough to spawn a new archetype, which I am cautiously optimistic about, she'll run into many of the same issues Koth got stuck with. She's got the prohibitive cost, she's got a similar (though stronger) game ending ulti, she's equally telegraphed, and the deck support is a bit slim. However, she has the advantage of being able to protect herself against creatures, she enables you to protect her against spells, she's got more utility, she's not as narrow as Koth is, and all of her effects are stronger.
I believe it is being explored with Congregation at Dawn, to set up a turn 4/5 Emrakul. I don't see it working in a deck that doesn't go all in on the combo, though. It kind of sucks as a value engine. I also see it as worse than comparable cards, like Nahiri or Through the Breach because it doesn't give haste.
TLDR: I'm actually a great deal more serious than you two appear to be. "Draws some cards" indeed.
I would argue that being 4-8 cards up ends the game just as easily, if not moreso, than being able to ping for 1 with each of your mountains. Yes, you can very easily be 8 cards up with the Nissa emblem. Your opponent can interact with your ability use your lands as a finisher (off the top of my head: Leyline of Sanctity, Runed Halo, Hexproof/Shroud creatures, Creatures with a bigger butt than the number of mountains you've got, Regenerators) and Koth takes two turns to charge up. With Koth ult, you can lose to spell-based combo. That's happened to me before, playing Koth as part of a sideboard in Scapeshift. Playing Nissa... I suppose it's possible to lose when you're that many cards up, but I have yet to see it in my testing. I've got more answers than they have threats, and I can draw more threats than my opponents can answer. I know it seems counter intuitive, but when Nissa goes off, the game is won. It just hasn't ended yet.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iQ_DCIFlhEuCH_az7dAhsxHdA-TYlGrec5tjArVG7TY/edit#gid=0
Authority of the Consuls 2
Glint-Nest Crane 2
Torrential Garhulk 2
Verdurous Gearhulk 2
Saheeli Rai 2
Unlicensed Disintegration 2
Filigree Familiar 2.14
Smuggler's Copter 2.14
Paradoxical Outcome 2.14
Foundry Inspector 2.29
Voltaic Brawler 2.29
Aetherflux Reservoir 2.43
Cataclysmic Gearhulk 2.43
Fragmentize 2.43
Kambal, Consul of Allocation 2.43
Toolcraft Exemplar 2.57
Madcap Experiment 2.71
Aether Hub 2.71
Inventors' Fair 2.86
Ceremonious Rejection 3
Lost Legacy 3
Blossoming Defense 3.43
Chandra, Torch of Defiance 3.57
Cathartic Reunion 4.14
Botanical Sanctum (UG) 4.14
Concealed Courtyard (BW) 4.14
Inspired Vantage (RW) 4.29
Blooming Marsh (BG) 4.43
Spirebluff Canal (UR) 4.43
Bomat Courier 1.57
Noxious Gearhulk 1.57
Combustible Gearhulk 1.57
Metalwork Colossus 1.71
Dubious Challenge 1.71
Wildest Dreams 1.71
Scrapheap Scrounger 1.86
Dovin Baan 1.86
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
IMO, it should be the primary Memoricide effect in the sideboard of non-BR, not-extraordinarily-creature-heavy-and-land-light decks. (Slaughter Games is better for BR decks because Scapeshift and Ad Nauseam can't counter it, and Stain the Mind is easier to cast in decks like Elves and Affinity. Additionally, RG Tron can't fix enough mana for Lost Legacy but can fix enough for Slaughter Games.) Being a 3-mana play is hot, hot, hot against increasingly faster combo decks, and opponents drawing at least one card from it is fairly rare. In decks like Melira Company, imagine casting Lost Legacy on Turn 2 on the play before they can counter it...
Not to mention that Lost Legacy lowers the curve of Eternal Scourge decks.
Not always, especially in control. The 5th and 6th lands are often significantly harder to hit reliably than the 4th, and control is one of the few archetypes who want to get up to a high number of lands (things like ramp and valakut tend to be the others). Scry 2, thend draw two is probably tons better than draw three in combo, but in control, they're pretty close and draw three might sometimes edge it out, since control both wants more actual cards in hand, rather than just specific pieces, and since control actually likes having more lands mid-late game a lot more than most other decks do, since they often have higher cmc win conditions or want to be able to play multiple answers when the opponents start having enough lands in play to be playing multiple of their lower cmc win conditions.
If control had an energy payoff card I would be a lot more interested.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Edit: Drawing between 4-8 cards for 1BB in a BGx deck is excellent. It's much more powerful than any other draw spell I can think of.
Competitive: GW Hatebears - UG Infect - BGW Liege Rhino
Casual: GR Titan Ramp - BR Aggro
WIP: BUW Control Mill
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
I tried Panharmonicon in Bant Eldrazi (it enables infinite combos there and buffs the ETB-happy Eldrazi). It felt like a waste of a card. I haven't been able to combo off once, and I typically got 0-2 additional triggers from it despite sticking Eldrazi Skyspawner in that deck. Not being to swing or block itself hurt.
Oh, misread that part. Yeah, it's pretty bad then.
Competitive: GW Hatebears - UG Infect - BGW Liege Rhino
Casual: GR Titan Ramp - BR Aggro
WIP: BUW Control Mill
I'm working on building a training grounds / Panharmonicon deck that makes use of Displacer and other flicker cards to trigger ETBs like Reflector Mage. The Panharmonicon basically works like training grounds 5-8 in that deck from how it played in mock up. Also, Gonti, lord of Luxury is bonkers and insanely fun. Played against tron and while it did backfire once, It's surprising how effective it is to go through the top 8 cards of their library and take the best cards away.
Not sure why people think cards at 4 cmc have to win the game outright when you can just slow the game down with the right counter measures.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!