1) Bring to Light seems like an amazing addition to the deck since it becomes Madcap Experiment 5-8.
2) We don't want it removed by targeted removal. Now I know it's 4 mana, but I'm going to suggest Padeem, Consul of Innovation. (Also there's the aura that gives the creature defender and forces enemy removal to hit the opposing creature - could potentially be good against rock-style decks as we really want Emperion to last. Of course it most probably costs too much! Just wanted to namedrop it...) Padeem dodges Abrupt Decay and may draw cards.
I think people are going on the wrong angle with the madcap + emperium package. This is not an all-in combo that must be protected at any cost. Having your Emperium killed is not the end of the workd, you didn't lost card advantage, all you lost was a 4CMC spell and a card from the deck (one that you might not even have drawn anyway).
I see this as a CMC 4 8/8 that protects you. Add it as an alternative in a deck that already wins by other means and just throw the problem at the hands of the opponent. One approach that I did see being commented is throwing it on Rg Valakut decks, those decks have a strong win con a and ramps a lot, wich means that the emperium can be even hard cast eventually if the valakut don't kills the opponent.
Think about it against some decks such as burn, death shadow, bogles and other removal light decks that wins with damage. A turn 3 (with ramp) emperium is basically auto lose for them, and then they need to bring hard removal against a deck where those are bad (path vs. valakut? thank you).
So in my opinion, you get a deck that is already solid, has some free slots and don't have counter synergies with the 'mademperium package' and just add it to have a new (and strong) alternative angle to attack.
Not all this garbage such as not of this world, padeem and such.
Does Madcap Experiment target yourself for damage or not? As worded it seems not but someone help me out.
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
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Not all this garbage such as not of this world, padeem and such.
Yea I understand he's a farfetched suggestion. He folds to black removal and path of exile. But he doesn't against Bolt and Abrupt Decay. So I was curious of which removal denial density he would be effective against. I don't have Magic software so I can't outright test him. Also isn't he a cheap card tixwise?
You are most probably right (like chances are my suggestions are pointless here, I totally agree) but I'd try to build and test a combo centric deck if I had the money myself.
Yea I understand he's a farfetched suggestion. He folds to black removal and path of exile. But he doesn't against Bolt and Abrupt Decay. So I was curious of which removal denial density he would be effective against. I don't have Magic software so I can't outright test him. Also isn't he a cheap card tixwise?
The problem is how bad those cards are without the Emperuim already in play (padeem is a 4CMC 1/4 that gives draws to your opponent if he has an artifact and Not of this World is uncastable), and since emperiums are the only artifacts/cratures with 7 power on the deck, those cards are basically dead cards until you have a madcap experiment.
It makes sense to run cards that would be otherwise bad to protect a combo when the combo wins the game right away (for example Angel's Grace on Ad Nauseam) but this is not the case, you are comminting a lot of slots to protect a non evasive 8/8 that don't win the game for you (it just prevent you from losing to damage)
I've also tried a couple of Temur Battle Rage to help close the game but ultimately decided to cut them as they were bad draws if I didn't have the combo.
Yea I understand he's a farfetched suggestion. He folds to black removal and path of exile. But he doesn't against Bolt and Abrupt Decay. So I was curious of which removal denial density he would be effective against. I don't have Magic software so I can't outright test him. Also isn't he a cheap card tixwise?
The problem is how bad those cards are without the Emperuim already in play (padeem is a 4CMC 1/4 that gives draws to your opponent if he has an artifact and Not of this World is uncastable), and since emperiums are the only artifacts/cratures with 7 power on the deck, those cards are basically dead cards until you have a madcap experiment.
It makes sense to run cards that would be otherwise bad to protect a combo when the combo wins the game right away (for example Angel's Grace on Ad Nauseam) but this is not the case, you are comminting a lot of slots to protect a non evasive 8/8 that don't win the game for you (it just prevent you from losing to damage)
Beware: I've tested against Bogles with my build. I need an enchantment sweeper (I prefer Back to Nature, but I guess you can try Engineered Explosives) or the match-up is hell. Platinum Emperion does not stop Lifelink's life gain, and Bogles can generally find redundant Daybreak Coronets faster than I can blow them up maindeck. Bogles with redundant Coronets on also tend to be bigger than Emperion.
I'm curious how is this a 'combo'. Its a 4 mana 8/8. Which is great, but doesn't exactly win the game, which plenty of decks can do on that same turn.
It's a 4 mana 8/8 that means you can't lose the game versus most decks until its dealt with, and you're playing lots of cards that protect it. Significant difference.
Right, but its a combo you're sort of building a deck around. I mean granted, not entirely, but still. Twin was so strong because it won the game on the spot. This just gives you an out to damage-based decks with a huge "Path/Terminate/Ancient Grudge Me" sticky note on it. I don't think it's strong enough to be playable as a mainboard strategy, but instead should be a 5 card sideboard option that slots into Red decks that reach 4 mana easily. It hoses Affinity and Suicide Zoo and all that, but its just not a strong enough plan to be worth building around as a mainboard strategy in a world where Affinity and Infect and Jund and Junk and Jeskai Nahiri and a million other decks have tons of outs to it. Hell, Merfolk wins against this with a Vapor Snag.
Jund/Junk/UWR Nahiri have loads of outs to Emperion, true.
Infect ignores Emperion's hosing, so I tend to prioritize killing their stuff instead.
Affinity's only maindeck outs are double Galvanic Blast or Inkmoth Nexus. Double Blast has never occurred in my testing so far, and if you play your deck well, Inkmoth is Public Enemy No. 1 (I typically have one more removal spell in hand by default after the first Emperion, and guess who bites the dust with it).
Merfolk's Snag and Bounce plan may work against 3-4 Madcap builds (I need further testing there), but I can typically play around it with my 8 Madcap build.
Not all this garbage such as not of this world, padeem and such.
Yea I understand he's a farfetched suggestion. He folds to black removal and path of exile. But he doesn't against Bolt and Abrupt Decay. So I was curious of which removal denial density he would be effective against. I don't have Magic software so I can't outright test him. Also isn't he a cheap card tixwise?
You are most probably right (like chances are my suggestions are pointless here, I totally agree) but I'd try to build and test a combo centric deck if I had the money myself.
There are many decks that the combo is good against game 1: Burn, affinity, bant eldrazi, dredge, elves, merfolk, death's shadow, kiki chord, RG breech, and abzan company since those decks don't play much removal. (burn has to use 3 burn spells on it before they side in artifact hate)
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Beware: I've tested against Bogles with my build. I need an enchantment sweeper (I prefer Back to Nature, but I guess you can try Engineered Explosives) or the match-up is hell. Platinum Emperion does not stop Lifelink's life gain, and Bogles can generally find redundant Daybreak Coronets faster than I can blow them up maindeck. Bogles with redundant Coronets on also tend to be bigger than Emperion.
Well boogles wouldn't be an issue game 1, yes you can't kill them, but neither they can. so against a boogle deck all you need is to draw less than they will and just wait until they deck themselves. (or, if the opponent is smart, concede)
Beware: I've tested against Bogles with my build. I need an enchantment sweeper (I prefer Back to Nature, but I guess you can try Engineered Explosives) or the match-up is hell. Platinum Emperion does not stop Lifelink's life gain, and Bogles can generally find redundant Daybreak Coronets faster than I can blow them up maindeck. Bogles with redundant Coronets on also tend to be bigger than Emperion.
Well boogles wouldn't be an issue game 1, yes you can't kill them, but neither they can. so against a boogle deck all you need is to draw less than they will and just wait until they deck themselves. (or, if the opponent is smart, concede)
One, Bogles uses Path, or at least I have. Two, Spirit Mantle. Games 2 and 3, I run artifact hate if it's an issue. But 4 Paths won me more games than anything my opponent could do. It was always important to Path an infect creature or Ulamog if the need ever arises. Though, Tron kills Bogles on turn 4 if they live that long.
The most solid Madcap Emperion deck I've encountered thus far was in a Skred Red shell. SSG to power out early blood moon/emperions with some removal back up and the PW plan B seemed solid, mostly because blood moon is currently really well positioned in the metagame, while also removing non-basic white mana to prevent paths on your 8/8.
Beware: I've tested against Bogles with my build. I need an enchantment sweeper (I prefer Back to Nature, but I guess you can try Engineered Explosives) or the match-up is hell. Platinum Emperion does not stop Lifelink's life gain, and Bogles can generally find redundant Daybreak Coronets faster than I can blow them up maindeck. Bogles with redundant Coronets on also tend to be bigger than Emperion.
Well boogles wouldn't be an issue game 1, yes you can't kill them, but neither they can. so against a boogle deck all you need is to draw less than they will and just wait until they deck themselves. (or, if the opponent is smart, concede)
In testing with my build, I generally have fewer cards in my deck than my Bogles opponent does once I've played the second Emperion all game, so if it comes down to a decking war, I lose. In the meantime, Bogles can easily gain 10 or more life per turn while I'm trying to find Emperion #2.
Thought of another card that might be worth mentioning - Favor of the Mighty. Against most decks, a Platinum Angel / Platinum Emperion will be the most expensive creature on the field and thus it shuts off most of the answers to those cards.
This, again, falls on the "bad without emperium in play" field. It even prevents you from using removal on the opponents creatures if you don't have something bigger.
Im currently running Madcap Emperion in my UR Breach deck. I run 4 TTB, 4 Emrakul, with 4 Madcap, 2 Platinum Emperion in the sideboard for an aggressive plan B. I took out the Cryptic Commands and a couple Snapcasters for a set of Seas/Blood Moon main. Its so strong. People die to 1 combo then die to the next. People get salty, ask what the **** i am playing, stare in awe, and cry in the absence of Twin. But at 7-1 in paper events i would say im pretty pleased.
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Active Modern Decks
U Tron GW Bogles RG Loam UR Blue Breach RBU Grixis Goryo BRU Grixis Delver GBR Jund GBW Junk
^^
Sounds rather interesting, can you share your list ?
I dont have my cards near me at the moment, but if you look up UR Through the Breach in Modern, you get a pretty good idea of what the deck looks like. You play things like Serum Visions, Bolt, Remand, Charms, Electrolyze, sometimes Cryptic, Blood Moon, Spreading Seas, Anger of the Gods, with a combo kill of Through the Breach and Emrakul. SB used to focus on a Blue Moon style control deck but i took out the Keranos, Jace and the Wurmcoil/Pia&Kirans in favor of the Madcap Emperion combo. Its good when decks dont have removal or board it out after seeing us play no creatures besides Emrakul and sometimes Snapcaster. Its also incredible at just breaking the bad matchups. The difference between Emrakul and Emperion is often a turn or two.
Seems bad against control but its one of our better matchups. Pre SB we have the advantage of the surprize kill, can even TTB on end step if they have Remand. After SB we have the Emperion Combo to get them to tap low so we can get there with Breach. We also have Gigadrowse, Dispels for the blue.
Jund is favorable. It all depends on the way both players SB. Sometimes Jund takes out all their bad removal because it cant hit Emrakul. Sometimes their Inquisitions cant hit TTB, Madcap, Cryptic. They need Thoughtseize or something out of the sb to hit our combo with discard.
Aggro decks are no contest. We have 4 Bolt, 3 Izzet Charm, 1 Electrolyze, 2 Anger of the Gods plus our counters and Snaps get pesky. Spreading Seas/Moon are decent here at slowing them down. Sometimes i wish we had Roast in the deck.
Combo decks are the best deck we can sit across from. Just sit on your Charms, Remands, Cryptics, Snaps, whatever youre running. Then after SB bring in your Dispels/Negates and often the Madcap Combo and viola, nigh-impossible to lose matchups.
Although its been good to me, i can see times where the deck is just a half turn too slow. The deck is strong but it isnt the best. I often let someone else on the team play it at events while i rock Jund or Bogles, but between all of us using it in tournaments we have only ever not placed 2 times with it out of at least a dozen trips and those losses were from a guy playing in his first and second Magic events. For example, he doesnt quite get Blue and likes to tap out when its often incorrect.
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Active Modern Decks
U Tron GW Bogles RG Loam UR Blue Breach RBU Grixis Goryo BRU Grixis Delver GBR Jund GBW Junk
I think the Madcap Experiment combo has the potential to become a tier 1 metagame defining deck, but it faces two issues
1. dies to path to exile
2. "just" a 4 mana platinum emperion is not enough to base a gameplan on
Because of how low the investment of the combo is, I think it would be at its strongest as an addition to already existing lists that can
1. benefit from or overload path to exile
2. already have a strong gameplan of their own that benefits from adding the combo
3. don't need to run any other artifact
What comes to mind for me are either Chord of Calling decks that can benefit from path to exile until very late into the game, or a jund build that can benefit with strong manlands (you would however probably have to cut bob).
You will be a sad panda if you flip Colossus over a Madcap, since it will not protect you from the damage. In short: you can't have artifacts other than emperiom/platinum angel on the deck, otherwise you put yourself on the risk of dying to madcap damage.
You got splice wrong. It won't make Through the Breach uncounterable, The effect of the splice spell is added to the spell cast as it resolves. If the original spell don't resolve, the spliced will also not. You just don't lose the card in the case of a counter.
I meant that Peer through Depths is much less likely to get countered and even if it does you can still keep your Through the Breach.
I probably phrased it wrong.
I meant that Peer through Depths is much less likely to get countered and even if it does you can still keep your Through the Breach.
I probably phrased it wrong.
Once people ask about Splice Onto Arcane, they'll counter everything with Through the Breach Spliced onto it. The Grishoalbrand people mainly take advantage of the fact they don't lose Breach itself when they Splice it onto Nourishing Shoal and make the Shoal massive counter bait.
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2) We don't want it removed by targeted removal. Now I know it's 4 mana, but I'm going to suggest Padeem, Consul of Innovation. (Also there's the aura that gives the creature defender and forces enemy removal to hit the opposing creature - could potentially be good against rock-style decks as we really want Emperion to last. Of course it most probably costs too much! Just wanted to namedrop it...) Padeem dodges Abrupt Decay and may draw cards.
I see this as a CMC 4 8/8 that protects you. Add it as an alternative in a deck that already wins by other means and just throw the problem at the hands of the opponent. One approach that I did see being commented is throwing it on Rg Valakut decks, those decks have a strong win con a and ramps a lot, wich means that the emperium can be even hard cast eventually if the valakut don't kills the opponent.
Think about it against some decks such as burn, death shadow, bogles and other removal light decks that wins with damage. A turn 3 (with ramp) emperium is basically auto lose for them, and then they need to bring hard removal against a deck where those are bad (path vs. valakut? thank you).
So in my opinion, you get a deck that is already solid, has some free slots and don't have counter synergies with the 'mademperium package' and just add it to have a new (and strong) alternative angle to attack.
Not all this garbage such as not of this world, padeem and such.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Yea I understand he's a farfetched suggestion. He folds to black removal and path of exile. But he doesn't against Bolt and Abrupt Decay. So I was curious of which removal denial density he would be effective against. I don't have Magic software so I can't outright test him. Also isn't he a cheap card tixwise?
You are most probably right (like chances are my suggestions are pointless here, I totally agree) but I'd try to build and test a combo centric deck if I had the money myself.
It makes sense to run cards that would be otherwise bad to protect a combo when the combo wins the game right away (for example Angel's Grace on Ad Nauseam) but this is not the case, you are comminting a lot of slots to protect a non evasive 8/8 that don't win the game for you (it just prevent you from losing to damage)
I've also tried a couple of Temur Battle Rage to help close the game but ultimately decided to cut them as they were bad draws if I didn't have the combo.
Again, you're most probably completely correct
Jund/Junk/UWR Nahiri have loads of outs to Emperion, true.
Infect ignores Emperion's hosing, so I tend to prioritize killing their stuff instead.
Affinity's only maindeck outs are double Galvanic Blast or Inkmoth Nexus. Double Blast has never occurred in my testing so far, and if you play your deck well, Inkmoth is Public Enemy No. 1 (I typically have one more removal spell in hand by default after the first Emperion, and guess who bites the dust with it).
Merfolk's Snag and Bounce plan may work against 3-4 Madcap builds (I need further testing there), but I can typically play around it with my 8 Madcap build.
1 Academy Ruins
1 Desolate Lighthouse
7 Island
2 Mountain
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Spirebluff Canal
3 Platinum Emperion
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
Instants and Sorceries:
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Cryptic Command
2 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Madcap Experiment
4 Mana Leak
2 See Beyond
4 Serum Visions
4 Blood Moon
There ya go!
As for 8/8... Kessig Wolf Run maybe?
There are many decks that the combo is good against game 1: Burn, affinity, bant eldrazi, dredge, elves, merfolk, death's shadow, kiki chord, RG breech, and abzan company since those decks don't play much removal. (burn has to use 3 burn spells on it before they side in artifact hate)
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
One, Bogles uses Path, or at least I have. Two, Spirit Mantle. Games 2 and 3, I run artifact hate if it's an issue. But 4 Paths won me more games than anything my opponent could do. It was always important to Path an infect creature or Ulamog if the need ever arises. Though, Tron kills Bogles on turn 4 if they live that long.
In testing with my build, I generally have fewer cards in my deck than my Bogles opponent does once I've played the second Emperion all game, so if it comes down to a decking war, I lose. In the meantime, Bogles can easily gain 10 or more life per turn while I'm trying to find Emperion #2.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
Sounds rather interesting, can you share your list ?
I dont have my cards near me at the moment, but if you look up UR Through the Breach in Modern, you get a pretty good idea of what the deck looks like. You play things like Serum Visions, Bolt, Remand, Charms, Electrolyze, sometimes Cryptic, Blood Moon, Spreading Seas, Anger of the Gods, with a combo kill of Through the Breach and Emrakul. SB used to focus on a Blue Moon style control deck but i took out the Keranos, Jace and the Wurmcoil/Pia&Kirans in favor of the Madcap Emperion combo. Its good when decks dont have removal or board it out after seeing us play no creatures besides Emrakul and sometimes Snapcaster. Its also incredible at just breaking the bad matchups. The difference between Emrakul and Emperion is often a turn or two.
Seems bad against control but its one of our better matchups. Pre SB we have the advantage of the surprize kill, can even TTB on end step if they have Remand. After SB we have the Emperion Combo to get them to tap low so we can get there with Breach. We also have Gigadrowse, Dispels for the blue.
Jund is favorable. It all depends on the way both players SB. Sometimes Jund takes out all their bad removal because it cant hit Emrakul. Sometimes their Inquisitions cant hit TTB, Madcap, Cryptic. They need Thoughtseize or something out of the sb to hit our combo with discard.
Aggro decks are no contest. We have 4 Bolt, 3 Izzet Charm, 1 Electrolyze, 2 Anger of the Gods plus our counters and Snaps get pesky. Spreading Seas/Moon are decent here at slowing them down. Sometimes i wish we had Roast in the deck.
Combo decks are the best deck we can sit across from. Just sit on your Charms, Remands, Cryptics, Snaps, whatever youre running. Then after SB bring in your Dispels/Negates and often the Madcap Combo and viola, nigh-impossible to lose matchups.
Although its been good to me, i can see times where the deck is just a half turn too slow. The deck is strong but it isnt the best. I often let someone else on the team play it at events while i rock Jund or Bogles, but between all of us using it in tournaments we have only ever not placed 2 times with it out of at least a dozen trips and those losses were from a guy playing in his first and second Magic events. For example, he doesnt quite get Blue and likes to tap out when its often incorrect.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/deck-of-the-day-modern-through-the-breach/
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-ur-breach
It is a rather old build (before the last bans) but is a rather decent baseline to start from.
Also, what about using Blightsteel Colossus over Emrakul as it doesn't shuffle your own GY and non-bo's with Snapcaster Mage ?
(It can also be tutored for with Treasure Mage/Fabricate)
I like Peer Through Depths (can be used to splice Through the Breach to be uncounterable) over Sleight of Hand and would probably cut the Repeal for more removal (Flame Slash/Roast) and maindeck a couple of Anger of the Gods (I guess that the deck can function with 22-23 lands as well).
1. dies to path to exile
2. "just" a 4 mana platinum emperion is not enough to base a gameplan on
Because of how low the investment of the combo is, I think it would be at its strongest as an addition to already existing lists that can
1. benefit from or overload path to exile
2. already have a strong gameplan of their own that benefits from adding the combo
3. don't need to run any other artifact
What comes to mind for me are either Chord of Calling decks that can benefit from path to exile until very late into the game, or a jund build that can benefit with strong manlands (you would however probably have to cut bob).
You got splice wrong. It won't make Through the Breach uncounterable, The effect of the splice spell is added to the spell cast as it resolves. If the original spell don't resolve, the spliced will also not. You just don't lose the card in the case of a counter.
I meant that Peer through Depths is much less likely to get countered and even if it does you can still keep your Through the Breach.
I probably phrased it wrong.
Once people ask about Splice Onto Arcane, they'll counter everything with Through the Breach Spliced onto it. The Grishoalbrand people mainly take advantage of the fact they don't lose Breach itself when they Splice it onto Nourishing Shoal and make the Shoal massive counter bait.