I see what youre going for but what i am unclear on is why is this better than a Jund deck adding Experiment? Its basically a RB deck with some bad cantrips and worse mana. Platinum Angel is a worse Emperion in every way. What decks does this deck beat up on? Right now the teir 1 decks are killing you incredibly quickly. They have disruption. You wont always find Madcap on time. Blue doesnt add too much to the deck. You tap out to sort of manipulate your deck and then die. Or you grind the aggro decks and they Infect you after you land Emperion. You get Emperion and bank on it winning and then Terminate hits it. Path hits it. Artifact hate hits it and i dont know what decks dont have a way to stop artifacts. But you dont seem to have another RELIABLE way to win. And that is the glaring flaw to me.
I truly believe just jamming this combo into a midrange deck isnt where it wants to be.
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U Tron GW Bogles RG Loam UR Blue Breach RBU Grixis Goryo BRU Grixis Delver GBR Jund GBW Junk
I see what youre going for but what i am unclear on is why is this better than a Jund deck adding Experiment? Its basically a RB deck with some bad cantrips and worse mana. Platinum Angel is a worse Emperion in every way. What decks does this deck beat up on? Right now the teir 1 decks are killing you incredibly quickly. They have disruption. You wont always find Madcap on time. Blue doesnt add too much to the deck. You tap out to sort of manipulate your deck and then die. Or you grind the aggro decks and they Infect you after you land Emperion. You get Emperion and bank on it winning and then Terminate hits it. Path hits it. Artifact hate hits it and i dont know what decks dont have a way to stop artifacts. But you dont seem to have another RELIABLE way to win. And that is the glaring flaw to me.
I truly believe just jamming this combo into a midrange deck isnt where it wants to be.
When I tried Madcap Emperion Jund, the draw power never felt as good without Bob. Grim Flayer can't get Delirium fast enough in my experience. 3-mana draw engines felt slower and clunkier. Add in that Jund's one of the best decks against Madcap Emperion (i.e. that's not the way to win the mirror) and that's how I felt that Madcap Jund didn't feel as powerful as regular old Bob Jund.
I was pleasantly surprised how much of a boost Snapcaster Mage gave to Madcap Experiment. In Grixis and UWR, I tended to get out 1.5 Emperions per game instead of Jund's 1 because Tiago could flash back Madcap. Recurring Madcap Experiment felt pretty good.
I'm using the same recur-happy principles in my current Madcap Emperion deck. It runs 4 Madcap, 4 Bring to Light, 2 Eternal Witness, and 3 Platinum Emperion. I tend to get out at least 2, probably closer to 2.3 Emperions per game. It should be on Page 1 of this thread. Based on my experiences testing against Infect, it's capable of winning without Emperion, and based on my testing against Bogles, I should be able to handle 1 Grafdigger's Cage per game in a timely fashion.
(I use decimals to express averages--i.e. I actually expect to get out 3 Emperions per 2 games or 23 Emperions per 10 games IRL.)
I see what youre going for but what i am unclear on is why is this better than a Jund deck adding Experiment? Its basically a RB deck with some bad cantrips and worse mana. Platinum Angel is a worse Emperion in every way. What decks does this deck beat up on? Right now the teir 1 decks are killing you incredibly quickly. They have disruption. You wont always find Madcap on time. Blue doesnt add too much to the deck. You tap out to sort of manipulate your deck and then die. Or you grind the aggro decks and they Infect you after you land Emperion. You get Emperion and bank on it winning and then Terminate hits it. Path hits it. Artifact hate hits it and i dont know what decks dont have a way to stop artifacts. But you dont seem to have another RELIABLE way to win. And that is the glaring flaw to me.
I truly believe just jamming this combo into a midrange deck isnt where it wants to be.
Every grixis jace list is a "RB deck with blue added." My mana base has been fine, plat angel comes in the infect matchup, blue adds jace/snap which is VERY important lol, all other tier 1-2 decks actually run very little removal right now besides jund/abzan/jeskai, Tasigur/tar pit has been a solid backup plan. Out of all of the "artifact hate" most decks actually run stony silence and they don't run artifact removal itself. Madcap on turn 4 and flashing it back is definitely a reliable way to win. Something tells me that you haven't played grixis jace before based on your comments. I also side in Chandra, torch of defiance and sideout the combo against jund/jeskai/abzan.
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I see what youre going for but what i am unclear on is why is this better than a Jund deck adding Experiment? Its basically a RB deck with some bad cantrips and worse mana. Platinum Angel is a worse Emperion in every way. What decks does this deck beat up on? Right now the teir 1 decks are killing you incredibly quickly. They have disruption. You wont always find Madcap on time. Blue doesnt add too much to the deck. You tap out to sort of manipulate your deck and then die. Or you grind the aggro decks and they Infect you after you land Emperion. You get Emperion and bank on it winning and then Terminate hits it. Path hits it. Artifact hate hits it and i dont know what decks dont have a way to stop artifacts. But you dont seem to have another RELIABLE way to win. And that is the glaring flaw to me.
I truly believe just jamming this combo into a midrange deck isnt where it wants to be.
When I tried Madcap Emperion Jund, the draw power never felt as good without Bob. Grim Flayer can't get Delirium fast enough in my experience. 3-mana draw engines felt slower and clunkier. Add in that Jund's one of the best decks against Madcap Emperion (i.e. that's not the way to win the mirror) and that's how I felt that Madcap Jund didn't feel as powerful as regular old Bob Jund.
I was pleasantly surprised how much of a boost Snapcaster Mage gave to Madcap Experiment. In Grixis and UWR, I tended to get out 1.5 Emperions per game instead of Jund's 1 because Tiago could flash back Madcap. Recurring Madcap Experiment felt pretty good.
I'm using the same recur-happy principles in my current Madcap Emperion deck. It runs 4 Madcap, 4 Bring to Light, 2 Eternal Witness, and 3 Platinum Emperion. I tend to get out at least 2, probably closer to 2.3 Emperions per game. It should be on Page 1 of this thread. Based on my experiences testing against Infect, it's capable of winning without Emperion, and based on my testing against Bogles, I should be able to handle 1 Grafdigger's Cage per game in a timely fashion.
(I use decimals to express averages--i.e. I actually expect to get out 3 Emperions per 2 games or 23 Emperions per 10 games IRL.)
It doesn't make sense in Jund because jund has numerous ways to win the game and it doesn't have many spots in it's deck. Grixis has always had issues winning the game in a timely matter. The madcap combo has been a great help in that regard.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
I played this list versus Burn ~10 times to get an idea of whether this was a viable deck. I thought it would be a fairly difficult matchup, and surprisingly I did not lose a single game, so maybe this is a real deck that needs further testing.
I found it fairly easy to combo off on turn 3/4 and be able to protect the angel long enough to win. I'm not sure though if Swan Song is really what we want as the second counter - it's great for making sure Madcap Experiment resolves as well as protecting the angel, but also makes it much harder to attack with the angel. Perhaps Stubborn Denial is good enough? I think I could move the third Platinum Angel to the board as normally I want to gain more life off Pact. Also think the manabase needs to be redone - realized during testing that fetches don't work when you have negative life total and makes it harder to cast Hive Mind. Maybe 4-6 of them at most. Casting Madcap Experiment with Hive Mind in play is often an automatic win; no need for pacts as most decks will take their library count in damage and die immediately.
I played this list versus Burn ~10 times to get an idea of whether this was a viable deck. I thought it would be a fairly difficult matchup, and surprisingly I did not lose a single game, so maybe this is a real deck that needs further testing.
I found it fairly easy to combo off on turn 3/4 and be able to protect the angel long enough to win. I'm not sure though if Swan Song is really what we want as the second counter - it's great for making sure Madcap Experiment resolves as well as protecting the angel, but also makes it much harder to attack with the angel. Perhaps Stubborn Denial is good enough? I think I could move the third Platinum Angel to the board as normally I want to gain more life off Pact. Also think the manabase needs to be redone - realized during testing that fetches don't work when you have negative life total and makes it harder to cast Hive Mind. Maybe 4-6 of them at most. Casting Madcap Experiment with Hive Mind in play is often an automatic win; no need for pacts as most decks will take their library count in damage and die immediately.
This is the first non-Emperion list I like. I do find the wincon questionable however; Hive Mind will make you unable to protect Platinum Angel as your opponent will get a copy of your counterspells. If you're at negative life, that will mean the end.
Also, the counterspell you're looking for is Stubborn Denial
I'd just run 4x Stubborn Denial, as it also stops non-targeting removal like LotV and wraths. I'm also still skeptical about Hive Mind as the wincon as it stops you from protecting platinum angel, even though the multifunctionality of it together with the pacts and madcap experiment is really cool; I'm guessing that against most decks, forcing your opponent to cast madcap experiment will kill them
The problem that I have with these kinds of control-based lists is that if Platinum Emperion is the first big thing you drop, the odds of your opponent having Path to Exile (or postboard artifact hate) are just incredibly high. And snapping back Madcap Experiment is nice and all but you only get two shots to cast it anyways, and after that you have a control deck with subpar removal and no wincon. I really don't like these all-in lists where the second Path to Exile reads "target opponent loses the game".
A proper control player should only go for the combo with counter backup unless it is the only way to not lose the game.
That is not how control pans out, however. You're asking to get to turn 5 stopping your opponent's gameplan, with Madcap Experiment in hand, no missed landdrops, and at least one Dispel to protect your wincon; that is already more cards than you will realistically have. Then you have to get two unblocked hits in (assuming you got 4 chip damage in somehow) with your creature with no evasion, hoping your opponent does not just have another removal spell in the at least two untap steps they get, whilst they never really had to spend any earlier in the game and could have just saved them up. Oh, and Ancient Grudge is legal in the format.
Considering there are plenty of decks now that win on turn 4 with interaction, "a proper control player" is not going to have all those stars aligned for them unless "proper" means "drew extra cards when noone was looking"
Looks like a fun combo. For now, I'm trying to add it to Living End. - 4 something -2 Architects of Will +2 Platinum Angel +4 Madcap. Don't have Empyrions, so using Platinum Angels to test. Not a very powerful combo, does not win the game on the spot, but still surprised some opponents. It's most effective against Burn players because they often don't expect an artifact that they need to kill in a Living End deck. Would probably be better if I had Empyrions, because using madcap to find the Angel often deals a lot of damage to me. ><
Maybe if there's a URW deck that wants to use the combo could also use Leonin Abunas in addition to counterspells? At 5 toughness, the leonin is a decent blocker to help stall while the madcap combo is being setup. If they kill the Abunas, that's one less kill spell for Empyrion.
Maybe if there's a URW deck that wants to use the combo could also use Leonin Abunas in addition to counterspells? At 5 toughness, the leonin is a decent blocker to help stall while the madcap combo is being setup. If they kill the Abunas, that's one less kill spell for Empyrion.
Would you ever run a white Rotted Hulk in modern? As the people suggested the Padeem, the card is just plain bad without the emperium already in play. You're commiting too many slots for a 'combo' that don't even wins you the game on the spot. Using otherwise bad cards can be justified to protect an auto-win combo, but emperium is far from being an auto-win as an artifact creature without evasion and built-in protection.
The idea on living end is something more realistic. There, people already have to worry about the Living End itself, and adding somthing else that attacks from a different angle can be good. This even makes their post board game worse, since now they have to hate both the grave AND bring spot removal against creatures/artifacts (something that is bad vs. living end Plan A of swarming with big creatures).
My greatest success with the combo has been this aggressively orientated Jund list. If I had the dough I would've bought it irl already
This is what I belive should be the approach for Mademperuim. A deck that can be good without emperium and that can put pressure on opponents removal so they can't just hold them for the emperium to the point that you need to aggressively protect it.
Adding a bit of unfair element to the fairest of all tier 1 decks might help it to regain some of it's lost space.
My greatest success with the combo has been this aggressively orientated Jund list. If I had the dough I would've bought it irl already
This is what I belive should be the approach for Mademperuim. A deck that can be good without emperium and that can put pressure on opponents removal so they can't just hold them for the emperium to the point that you need to aggressively protect it.
Adding a bit of unfair element to the fairest of all tier 1 decks might help it to regain some of it's lost space.
Yes, exactly. The combo is too weak to build around on its own; Platinum Emperion is fairly easy to answer. After an onslaught of discard and Tarmogoyfs however, topdecking out of an 8 power clock is very difficult. Jund works extra well with it as discarding Emperion off LotV or "dredging" it away with Grim Flayer is a very effective way of turning on delirium and making massive Goyfs
I just wanted to share a really derpy move I made when sideboarding against tron. Mental note: don't side in the Pithing Needles when running a Madcap package...uhg.
I just wanted to share a really derpy move I made when sideboarding against tron. Mental note: don't side in the Pithing Needles when running a Madcap package...uhg.
I keep thinking "hey, Spellskite would really help protecting Emperion!" and add it to my list for a good 5 seconds
http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/grixis-experiment-2/
It's been going pretty good. I do need to tune this list a lot better but the potential is there in this build.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
I truly believe just jamming this combo into a midrange deck isnt where it wants to be.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
When I tried Madcap Emperion Jund, the draw power never felt as good without Bob. Grim Flayer can't get Delirium fast enough in my experience. 3-mana draw engines felt slower and clunkier. Add in that Jund's one of the best decks against Madcap Emperion (i.e. that's not the way to win the mirror) and that's how I felt that Madcap Jund didn't feel as powerful as regular old Bob Jund.
I was pleasantly surprised how much of a boost Snapcaster Mage gave to Madcap Experiment. In Grixis and UWR, I tended to get out 1.5 Emperions per game instead of Jund's 1 because Tiago could flash back Madcap. Recurring Madcap Experiment felt pretty good.
I'm using the same recur-happy principles in my current Madcap Emperion deck. It runs 4 Madcap, 4 Bring to Light, 2 Eternal Witness, and 3 Platinum Emperion. I tend to get out at least 2, probably closer to 2.3 Emperions per game. It should be on Page 1 of this thread. Based on my experiences testing against Infect, it's capable of winning without Emperion, and based on my testing against Bogles, I should be able to handle 1 Grafdigger's Cage per game in a timely fashion.
(I use decimals to express averages--i.e. I actually expect to get out 3 Emperions per 2 games or 23 Emperions per 10 games IRL.)
Every grixis jace list is a "RB deck with blue added." My mana base has been fine, plat angel comes in the infect matchup, blue adds jace/snap which is VERY important lol, all other tier 1-2 decks actually run very little removal right now besides jund/abzan/jeskai, Tasigur/tar pit has been a solid backup plan. Out of all of the "artifact hate" most decks actually run stony silence and they don't run artifact removal itself. Madcap on turn 4 and flashing it back is definitely a reliable way to win. Something tells me that you haven't played grixis jace before based on your comments. I also side in Chandra, torch of defiance and sideout the combo against jund/jeskai/abzan.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
It doesn't make sense in Jund because jund has numerous ways to win the game and it doesn't have many spots in it's deck. Grixis has always had issues winning the game in a timely matter. The madcap combo has been a great help in that regard.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Curious--how often did you run into a Skullcrack or Atarka's Command that hit in response to Intervention Pact, and how often did you counter it? Those 2 spells continuously hitting that Pact (and thus making my Burn match-up suck) is partially why I gave up making Madcap Experiment into Aetherflux Reservoir work.
Your list does mitigate that problem by introducing (slower) alternate win cons that don't depend on life gain or damage prevention.
This is the first non-Emperion list I like. I do find the wincon questionable however; Hive Mind will make you unable to protect Platinum Angel as your opponent will get a copy of your counterspells. If you're at negative life, that will mean the end.
Also, the counterspell you're looking for is Stubborn Denial
http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/writers/hapless-researcher/wild-research-madcap-moon
I'd just run 4x Stubborn Denial, as it also stops non-targeting removal like LotV and wraths. I'm also still skeptical about Hive Mind as the wincon as it stops you from protecting platinum angel, even though the multifunctionality of it together with the pacts and madcap experiment is really cool; I'm guessing that against most decks, forcing your opponent to cast madcap experiment will kill them
The problem that I have with these kinds of control-based lists is that if Platinum Emperion is the first big thing you drop, the odds of your opponent having Path to Exile (or postboard artifact hate) are just incredibly high. And snapping back Madcap Experiment is nice and all but you only get two shots to cast it anyways, and after that you have a control deck with subpar removal and no wincon. I really don't like these all-in lists where the second Path to Exile reads "target opponent loses the game".
That is not how control pans out, however. You're asking to get to turn 5 stopping your opponent's gameplan, with Madcap Experiment in hand, no missed landdrops, and at least one Dispel to protect your wincon; that is already more cards than you will realistically have. Then you have to get two unblocked hits in (assuming you got 4 chip damage in somehow) with your creature with no evasion, hoping your opponent does not just have another removal spell in the at least two untap steps they get, whilst they never really had to spend any earlier in the game and could have just saved them up. Oh, and Ancient Grudge is legal in the format.
Considering there are plenty of decks now that win on turn 4 with interaction, "a proper control player" is not going to have all those stars aligned for them unless "proper" means "drew extra cards when noone was looking"
Maybe if there's a URW deck that wants to use the combo could also use Leonin Abunas in addition to counterspells? At 5 toughness, the leonin is a decent blocker to help stall while the madcap combo is being setup. If they kill the Abunas, that's one less kill spell for Empyrion.
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The idea on living end is something more realistic. There, people already have to worry about the Living End itself, and adding somthing else that attacks from a different angle can be good. This even makes their post board game worse, since now they have to hate both the grave AND bring spot removal against creatures/artifacts (something that is bad vs. living end Plan A of swarming with big creatures).
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Flayer
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Thoughtseize
3 Terminate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Seal of Fire
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Madcap Experiment
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Blood Crypt
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Raging Ravine
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Twilight Mire
Adding a bit of unfair element to the fairest of all tier 1 decks might help it to regain some of it's lost space.
Yes, exactly. The combo is too weak to build around on its own; Platinum Emperion is fairly easy to answer. After an onslaught of discard and Tarmogoyfs however, topdecking out of an 8 power clock is very difficult. Jund works extra well with it as discarding Emperion off LotV or "dredging" it away with Grim Flayer is a very effective way of turning on delirium and making massive Goyfs
I keep thinking "hey, Spellskite would really help protecting Emperion!" and add it to my list for a good 5 seconds
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1. RG Ponza - https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/506255
2. UR Blue Moon - https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/506260
Here are some videos with a very similar build:
http://www.numotgaming.com/modern-monday-madcap-jund/
I quite like it though Jund is so expensive to buy into...
I wonder if it wouldn't work even better in the newer "Blood Moon Jund" variants of the deck.