Where are you seeing Mentor being played in Modern? Love the card and would like it to be viable but it just hasn't stuck yet. I think the CMC coupled with all the main deck removal is what brings both down in this format.
Where are you seeing Mentor being played in Modern? Love the card and would like it to be viable but it just hasn't stuck yet. I think the CMC coupled with all the main deck removal is what brings both down in this format.
Where are you seeing Mentor being played in Modern? Love the card and would like it to be viable but it just hasn't stuck yet. I think the CMC coupled with all the main deck removal is what brings both down in this format.
Both are viable... but neither really see play. In a goblins deck, I can see it doing serious work. But modern goblins doesnt really exist because while they have the beef to battle, they lack the utility like gempalm, or the lockdown with wasteland. If goblins finally got enough support, sure. He would be a key player.
I dont think he does that much work on his own. In red I can kill with swift spears and guides backed up with burn. I can even play nacatl. In standard he did work because that standard was very much a "Pick 3 colors midrange" standard, which there was literally no better option at red. We have better options in modern... most of them happen to just be 2 or less mana. But seriously, in a goblins deck hes freakin' all star. He often makes 2/2 haste tokens, that are fodder for even more stupidity.
Mentor is an odd dude. Hes more "powerful" but sees less play... yet sees ton of it in legacy and vintage... course, the spells in legacy and vintage are all better, and you can tap out there too because of free counterspells. Does he have a home in modern, not at all. We play creatures here. lol. But will he? Sure. Modern slowly is getting "better spells than creatures" Currently Pyromancer is a better choice in tempo, and in control... well control isnt a thing, so lets go with nahiri. I'm optimistic about him. Just not now.
Both will see play. When, depends on what support is printed.
Mentor sees a ton of Vintage play, but not really a ton of Legacy play. I would say that he sees hardly any Legacy play outside of Miracles (which is the most popular deck, so there's that), and there's a few things going for him there that Modern can't replicate:
Less creature removal. Almost every deck in Modern can pay 1-2 mana to kill Mentor. That's not quite the same in Legacy.
Free spells.
Countertop. It's the best protection that you can have.
Combos with him. Looping multiple Sensei's Divining Tops is a powerful way to get multiple triggers if your opponent ever taps out, which you can't do in Modern.
Rabblemaster Pros:
-Has a quasi "ETB" that puts a swinging token in right away (automatic 2 for 1)
-Requires no other cards to create value
Mentor Pros:
-More control over tokens (blocking)
-Creates free value to other spells
Goblin Rabblemaster is actually very good out of the sideboard against decks where you want a fast clock like Tron/Ad naus/RG breech. I've used it in Grixis Midrange before and I liked it. I was thinking of making a fun tokens deck with Rabblemaster and pack rat since they both have good synergy with mutavault.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Rabblemaster Pros:
-Has a quasi "ETB" that puts a swinging token in right away (automatic 2 for 1)
-Requires no other cards to create value
Mentor Pros:
-More control over tokens (blocking)
-Creates free value to other spells
Goblin Rabblemaster is actually very good out of the sideboard against decks where you want a fast clock like Tron/Ad naus/RG breech. I've used it in Grixis Midrange before and I liked it. I was thinking of making a fun tokens deck with Rabblemaster and pack rat since they both have good synergy with mutavault.
I was messing around with similar things. I have a mardu nahiri deck that enjoys Rabble.
I faced down a Jeskai control deck that ran rabblemasters several months back. It didn't do so hot against my chord deck's Archangel Avacyn, but it took a lot of players by surprise.
I faced down a Jeskai control deck that ran rabblemasters several months back. It didn't do so hot against my chord deck's Archangel Avacyn, but it took a lot of players by surprise.
Not gonna lie, I feel like Rabblemaster shares the same fate as Pack Rat in modern. ie its a fantastic card when properly applied, but no one knows / cares. Guys just because "pros" aren't using a card doesn't make it unplayable. Pros are people with questionable judgment at best (they are trying to make a living playin MTG).
Pros are people with questionable judgment at best (they are trying to make a living playin MTG).
Think for yourselves guys, don't be a lemming.
Best thing I've read all day, thanks.
Regarding Rabblemaster, we're one great Goblin away from tribal goblins being a cool fun deck. I personally think that R/B is the way to go, but that's just me.
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No one spoke. There was no need. The threat of the Eldrazi presented a simple choice: lay down your arms and die for nothing, or hold them fast and die for something.
I faced down a Jeskai control deck that ran rabblemasters several months back. It didn't do so hot against my chord deck's Archangel Avacyn, but it took a lot of players by surprise.
Not gonna lie, I feel like Rabblemaster shares the same fate as Pack Rat in modern. ie its a fantastic card when properly applied, but no one knows / cares. Guys just because "pros" aren't using a card doesn't make it unplayable. Pros are people with questionable judgment at best (they are trying to make a living playin MTG).
Think for yourselves guys, don't be a lemming.
Why is it that people who start threads about lesser-used cards assume respondents to the thread are just lemmings intent on net-decking all the time? This kind of logical leap is baffling.
I faced down a Jeskai control deck that ran rabblemasters several months back. It didn't do so hot against my chord deck's Archangel Avacyn, but it took a lot of players by surprise.
Not gonna lie, I feel like Rabblemaster shares the same fate as Pack Rat in modern. ie its a fantastic card when properly applied, but no one knows / cares. Guys just because "pros" aren't using a card doesn't make it unplayable. Pros are people with questionable judgment at best (they are trying to make a living playin MTG).
Think for yourselves guys, don't be a lemming.
Why is it that people who start threads about lesser-used cards assume respondents to the thread are just lemmings intent on net-decking all the time? This kind of logical leap is baffling.
Agreed. Both fail the bolt test spectacularly, and there are better 3 drops out there to achieve the same ends. There is a reason those cards aren't played, and it's not because all of us are sheeple and OP is the only one with his eyes open. It's because they aren't good cards for Modern.
I faced down a Jeskai control deck that ran rabblemasters several months back. It didn't do so hot against my chord deck's Archangel Avacyn, but it took a lot of players by surprise.
Not gonna lie, I feel like Rabblemaster shares the same fate as Pack Rat in modern. ie its a fantastic card when properly applied, but no one knows / cares. Guys just because "pros" aren't using a card doesn't make it unplayable. Pros are people with questionable judgment at best (they are trying to make a living playin MTG).
Think for yourselves guys, don't be a lemming.
Why is it that people who start threads about lesser-used cards assume respondents to the thread are just lemmings intent on net-decking all the time? This kind of logical leap is baffling.
Agreed. Both fail the bolt test spectacularly, and there are better 3 drops out there to achieve the same ends. There is a reason those cards aren't played, and it's not because all of us are sheeple and OP is the only one with his eyes open. It's because they aren't good cards for Modern.
In return I quasi-agree. I think both are inherently good cards, and powerful in their own ways. But only ever a very few cards in Magic don't need to care about context. These cards aren't exceptions to that larger rule. The context in Modern is simply not conducive to these cards or the decks they belong in at the moment. But that can easily change.
I think in general if you're looking for token production in white at 3, lingering souls/spectral progression is what you want. For red, you want young pyromancer. Mentor and Rabblemaster are just strictly worse.
I faced down a Jeskai control deck that ran rabblemasters several months back. It didn't do so hot against my chord deck's Archangel Avacyn, but it took a lot of players by surprise.
Not gonna lie, I feel like Rabblemaster shares the same fate as Pack Rat in modern. ie its a fantastic card when properly applied, but no one knows / cares. Guys just because "pros" aren't using a card doesn't make it unplayable. Pros are people with questionable judgment at best (they are trying to make a living playin MTG).
Think for yourselves guys, don't be a lemming.
Why is it that people who start threads about lesser-used cards assume respondents to the thread are just lemmings intent on net-decking all the time? This kind of logical leap is baffling.
Agreed. Both fail the bolt test spectacularly, and there are better 3 drops out there to achieve the same ends. There is a reason those cards aren't played, and it's not because all of us are sheeple and OP is the only one with his eyes open. It's because they aren't good cards for Modern.
Failing the bolt test is meaningless in certain shells but I don't expect you to understand what shells are or why some shells might be looking for a "get out of control fast" card at that casting cost.
Sure, some shells bolt test, which isnt does it dye to bolt, but rather, card vs card cost of a 1 for 1, or a 1 for 1 but they used a mana to destroy your 3.
That being said, the answer is still... those shells dont really exist in modern. In legacy you can go "mentor, use him as basically a thopter sword combo, make a lot of tokens." Which at that point bolt doesnt matter. In vintage you can get tokens off rocks, plus you have a million easy mana to work with and free cards. In both formats there are free counterspells that protect him from bolt.
Modern... 0 mana cost mana rocks dont exist (No ones talking to you affinity), neither does top lock, or free counters.
Mentor isnt really viable because the shells your talking about dont exist. Super grindy control deck... maybe. You also might be better off with a colonnade since that doesnt take up a deck slot, or nahiri because shes utility and if goes off she wins the game. Discard deck or lantern? Sure... but at that point, literally any card can win when you lock down. Hell, a Noble Hierarch can get there if you have a perfect lock down.
Saying rabblemaster or mentor is viable is saying "Bloodghast" is viable. Bloodghast existed for a long long time... used SOMEtimes by dredgevine and bad loam decks. Bloodghast now IS viable because mom hug, amagamate, and neonate got printed... but the card needed to see 3 different cards printed to become viable... plus an unban. Just because a card might be good doesnt mean it has a home or should be used if the support isnt there. and pushing it because you can, doesn't mean you are making good "spike" picks.
The card is powerful, but sucks because it doesnt have a home. When it has a home it will be great.
One thing that people still don't understand: a card can be powerful and yet see zero play.
Why? Because a deck is not made by 4 cards, but by at last 60.
Those two are example of cards that are strong, but don't see play simply becausr there is not a home for them.
I guess that calls into question how you define "powerful"
If a card doesn't do anything when it comes into play, costs more than 2 mana, fails the bolt test, and requires a full deck's support to be good, is it "powerful" or is it "situationally good"?
If a card doesn't do anything when it comes into play, costs more than 2 mana, fails the bolt test, and requires a full deck's support to be good, is it "powerful" or is it "situationally good"?
The "bolt test" is overated, as long the payoff is high enough, the risk of tempo loss can be mitigated. Because you know, people can only run 4 bolts copies. And if you have enough strong cards to demand bolts you can pressure the opponent to spend those bolts.
A card that can define a format and threats to kill in 2-3 turns if left unchecked, and another that is playable in vintage and legacy, are card that can be defined as 'powerful' in my book.
I only saw one deck where mentor was good. And that was an Esper midrange deck that came out of Japan, aimed at destroying Spliter Twinn (The amount of discard + spot removal made sure they could never beat it. And their spot removal only taded for tokens.) That deck is no longer viable as the metagame has become more agressive and it's best matchup is banned.
However, if you want to experiment with mentor or rabbelmaster you can try the Jeskai list with Mantis Rider. Jeff Hoogland has an article about it here.
Rabblemaster Pros:
-Has a quasi "ETB" that puts a swinging token in right away (automatic 2 for 1)
-Requires no other cards to create value
Mentor Pros:
-More control over tokens (blocking)
-Creates free value to other spells
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
It is also occasionally played as 2x-of in the SB of "Jeskai Ascendancy" and "Thing Ascension" decks, rather fringe decks as well.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/485223
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-thing-ascension
So I wouldn't say that it sees actual play in a semi-played deck.
It gets play in UW control decks too.
Where? I can't find any lists that play Mentor.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
I dont think he does that much work on his own. In red I can kill with swift spears and guides backed up with burn. I can even play nacatl. In standard he did work because that standard was very much a "Pick 3 colors midrange" standard, which there was literally no better option at red. We have better options in modern... most of them happen to just be 2 or less mana. But seriously, in a goblins deck hes freakin' all star. He often makes 2/2 haste tokens, that are fodder for even more stupidity.
Mentor is an odd dude. Hes more "powerful" but sees less play... yet sees ton of it in legacy and vintage... course, the spells in legacy and vintage are all better, and you can tap out there too because of free counterspells. Does he have a home in modern, not at all. We play creatures here. lol. But will he? Sure. Modern slowly is getting "better spells than creatures" Currently Pyromancer is a better choice in tempo, and in control... well control isnt a thing, so lets go with nahiri. I'm optimistic about him. Just not now.
Both will see play. When, depends on what support is printed.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Goblin Rabblemaster is actually very good out of the sideboard against decks where you want a fast clock like Tron/Ad naus/RG breech. I've used it in Grixis Midrange before and I liked it. I was thinking of making a fun tokens deck with Rabblemaster and pack rat since they both have good synergy with mutavault.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Not gonna lie, I feel like Rabblemaster shares the same fate as Pack Rat in modern. ie its a fantastic card when properly applied, but no one knows / cares. Guys just because "pros" aren't using a card doesn't make it unplayable. Pros are people with questionable judgment at best (they are trying to make a living playin MTG).
Think for yourselves guys, don't be a lemming.
Best thing I've read all day, thanks.
Regarding Rabblemaster, we're one great Goblin away from tribal goblins being a cool fun deck. I personally think that R/B is the way to go, but that's just me.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Agreed. Both fail the bolt test spectacularly, and there are better 3 drops out there to achieve the same ends. There is a reason those cards aren't played, and it's not because all of us are sheeple and OP is the only one with his eyes open. It's because they aren't good cards for Modern.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
That being said, the answer is still... those shells dont really exist in modern. In legacy you can go "mentor, use him as basically a thopter sword combo, make a lot of tokens." Which at that point bolt doesnt matter. In vintage you can get tokens off rocks, plus you have a million easy mana to work with and free cards. In both formats there are free counterspells that protect him from bolt.
Modern... 0 mana cost mana rocks dont exist (No ones talking to you affinity), neither does top lock, or free counters.
Mentor isnt really viable because the shells your talking about dont exist. Super grindy control deck... maybe. You also might be better off with a colonnade since that doesnt take up a deck slot, or nahiri because shes utility and if goes off she wins the game. Discard deck or lantern? Sure... but at that point, literally any card can win when you lock down. Hell, a Noble Hierarch can get there if you have a perfect lock down.
Saying rabblemaster or mentor is viable is saying "Bloodghast" is viable. Bloodghast existed for a long long time... used SOMEtimes by dredgevine and bad loam decks. Bloodghast now IS viable because mom hug, amagamate, and neonate got printed... but the card needed to see 3 different cards printed to become viable... plus an unban. Just because a card might be good doesnt mean it has a home or should be used if the support isnt there. and pushing it because you can, doesn't mean you are making good "spike" picks.
The card is powerful, but sucks because it doesnt have a home. When it has a home it will be great.
Why? Because a deck is not made by 4 cards, but by at last 60.
Those two are example of cards that are strong, but don't see play simply becausr there is not a home for them.
If a card doesn't do anything when it comes into play, costs more than 2 mana, fails the bolt test, and requires a full deck's support to be good, is it "powerful" or is it "situationally good"?
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
A card that can define a format and threats to kill in 2-3 turns if left unchecked, and another that is playable in vintage and legacy, are card that can be defined as 'powerful' in my book.
However, if you want to experiment with mentor or rabbelmaster you can try the Jeskai list with Mantis Rider. Jeff Hoogland has an article about it here.
Jeskai Rider: http://articles.mtgcardmarket.com/jeskai-modern-rider/
The old Esper list for reffernce: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/597916-esper-midrange-doing-well-in-japan