(This idea was initially posted on Reddit in the r/ModernMagic subforum. You can find the original thread here. BACE and ktkenshinx have made edits to this MTGS post.)
What I'm attempting here is a "fix" for the current banlist. Everyone constantly complains about the banlist, and how more/less stuff needs to be unbanned. Well, maybe it's time we see if we can do better. So, I present to you:
The Reformation of Modern
Eh, it's a stupid name. But it gets the point across well enough. We're going to work towards a fair and balanced metagame with transparent, data-driven banlist management. If we do this, it would be a huge project, but I think we can handle it. Our goal is to start with a much more limited banlist than the current Modern banlist and then ban/unban as needed from there. Throughout this process, we will be as transparent and data-driven as possible. Based on our early conversations, we have decided on starting points with our banlist philosophy, banlist criteria, unbanned cards, and the final banlist itself.
Banlist philosophy
To have the shortest banlist possible
To promote archetype and strategic diversity
To weaken, not kill, decks with bans
Banlist criteria
The Tier 0 Rule: If a deck occupies 30%+ of the metagame for 3+ months, steps will be taken to reduce its dominance.
The Tier .5 Rule: If a deck occupies 20%+ of the metagame for 6+ months, steps will be taken to reduce its dominance.
The MWP Rule: If a deck has a 60%+ MWP across all games in the format, steps will be taken to reduce its dominance.
The NEW Turn 4 Rule: If 10%+ of total games across the format end on T2-T3, steps will be taken to slow down the format. This will include looking at cards shared by decks winning before T4, looking at the decks winning before T4 with the highest metagame share, and looking at decks that win before T4 in the highest percentage of games.
Notable unbannings from the current Modern banlist
We have a discord set up for this. Feel free to stop by. I know the initial metagame might look uncertain or unbalanced, but this is the first round. Things will change. Things will settle. Things will be worked out. Join us in discussing Reformation Modern on Discord here: https://discord.gg/SUhG2TA
Attention! We're holding our first tournament! This tournament is for early results, and will not have prize support (although future tournaments will). It will start this Monday, March 20th. You can sign up here. If you do sign up, please make sure that you register your deck here (if you aren't in the discord, please put your MTGS username).
Start Date: Monday, March 20, 2017
Platform: Any. Pick one with your opponent.
Tournament Format: Swiss, cut to Top 8.
Unban List:
Stoneforge Mystic
Bloodbraid Elf
Splinter Twin
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Preordain
Gitaxian Probe
Chrome Mox
Birthing Pod
Dark Depths
Seething Song
In here, you can find a list of community-proposed decklists for this format. I can't guarantee these will be optimal (or even good) versions of the decks, but they are what members of our small community have come up with.
Alright guys. This was something I originally posted on the ModernMagic subreddit, but I thought I should share here as well. People like to complain about the state of Modern, particularly the banlist, and I wanted to see if we could do any better. I held a straw poll that asked basically "Do we start with no banlist and then ban stuff, or start with the current banlist and unban stuff?" Based on the strawpoll, we're going to start with the current banlist, and then unban things to get to a better format. I do not plan to ban/unban things one at a time in the beginning. These bans will come in waves, probably about once every month. The first wave starts now, and I'll update this ban list (probably with an update to this post) around mid-March. Here is the list of cards being unbanned in this B&R update for "Reformation Modern:"
Reasoning behind Unbans:
To start this off, I want to say I was very liberal in these unbannings. I wanted to give things a shot in this format, and I tried to unban tools for a variety of decks. Keep in mind that every last one of these cards is liable to be banned in a month.
Umezawa's Jitte: This card is incredibly strong, but can give a variety of aggro and midrange decks some serious game off of a single card.
Summer Bloom: Everyone's favorite turn-2 win, but I'm hoping with some unbannings we could see this being a less popular choice.
Sensei's Divining Top: A fine card for control decks to help fight some of the aggro strategies, and could even give rise to Miracles in Modern (although the lack of brainstorm hurts).
Ponder: A premier blue cantrip, this can replace or supplement Serum Visions in control decks. Yes, I know that combo loves this card. But this format isn't supposed to be "safe." It's supposed to find out what "safe" is, even if the method we use isn't very safe to begin with.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor: A huge payoff card for blue-based control decks that make it to turn 4. Hopefully this will promote control as an archetype.
Green Sun's Zenith: A card that I personally am a fan of, but I'm well aware of how powerful it can be. This slots into a lot of green-based decks, however, and might even be used in a deck full of green silver bullets a la Kiki-Chord.
Glimpse of Nature: This could give combo elves a shot at being a big deck, but it could fall flat on its face. A nice combo card that I felt deserved a chance.
Dig Through Time: Another card unbanned to help control, but I understand that other archetypes can get a boost out of this too.
Blazing Shoal: A little boost for infect, we'll have to see how this shakes out. It could very well be too good, but I think the tools to combat this card may be available in the format. However, it does punish you much in the way twin did, but much earlier in the game (turn 2 rather than turn 4). We'll see about this one.
Birthing Pod: Yes, I unbanned two different creature-toolbox-oriented cards. This could very well be a mistake, but I'd like to see what this deck can do now, and how it can fight through some of the other strategies entering the meta.
So there you go. All the unbans in the first wave of our new format. Keep in mind that we have what is essentially an "experimental banlist" and that things will be unbanned, even if it seems like they shouldn't be. Every card on the current modern banlist will be unbanned at some point, so be prepared for that.
The second part of this thread is going to be me establishing ban criteria. The beginning will be filled with less strict requirements for a ban (meaning things eat the hammer more easily), and later on the requirements will become more strict. The following four guidelines are in place to police the format. Only one has to be fulfilled for something to be banned.
Ban for Meta %
If any deck holds a 20% or greater meta share for more than a month, something from that deck will be banned. Ban for Turnover
If we hold any tournaments, and a single deck consistently (4+ tournaments) has a >60% turnover rate, a card from that deck will be banned. Please not this one will probably never be used. Ban for Breaking the Turn-4 Rule
If any deck is able to win before turn 4 through interaction >50% of the time or have a virtual win set up (looking at you amulet bloom) and has a >5% meta share, a card from that deck will be banned.
So now, the third part of this thread: A matchfinder of sorts. If you have friends irl that you plan on testing this format with, great! Otherwise though, this thread will serve as a sort of "friend finder." Post below what platforms you're available to play on (cockatrice, XMage, untap.in, etc.), and look around for other people to play games with. I will also add your names to this thread as I find the time. They will be immediately below this: [Reserved for Matchmaking]
Finally, the last thing. A template for sending me PMs containing match info. Using this specific template isn't required, but all the info on it is. Please make sure all match info gets to me.
**Number of Games in Match:** [Info here]
**My Deck:** [Info here (please include a full list, preferably in the form of a tappedout link)]
**# of Wins:** [Info here]
**Opponent's Reddit Name:** [Info here]
**Opponent's Deck:** [Info here]
**# of Opponent's Wins:** [Info here]
So there's the form. Feel free to use it (or not). And now we're done. I'd like to thank you all for your participation in this. Let's get to it! And remember, post what platforms you play on below so we can get testing!
Also, I want to be totally transparent with the data I'm collecting, so you can find the results of every match I receive info on here.
EDIT 2: We are no longer using the above banlist. We've decided on one that's much more conservative, but makes plenty of difference (and has a few dangerous cards as well). The current unbanlist is as follows:
This should create a much more balanced, much more fun format.
2/13/2017: Edited formatting and updated unbanlist. (ktkenshinx) 2/13/2017: Slight edits to formatting. Added sample decks. Added changelog. (BACE) 2/14/2017: Added link to the poll. 2/21/2017: Removed poll. Starting with a banlist has won.
I would have rather seen the ban list stay where it is for now, while rigorous testing done by a community to verify a cards health for the format. That way you shouldn't need to re ban things as often. Banning and re banning is not a way to promote format growth, but will lead to fear like wizards has done.
I think the Commander committee is what Modern should try to emulate. While they do have their issues, they are much better than what we currently have.
Why anyone would want to play in a format where Sensei's Divining Top is legal is beyond me. The rest of your unbannings I could probably get behind. Well maybe not Glimpse of Nature..... elves doesn't need more support.
Basically what you've done with your unbannings here is turn modern into a combo format. You unban cards like Dig Through Time but you keep Bloodbraid Elf banned? Your personal preferences are considered far too much, I think.
Yeah, so this is similar to the response I got on reddit. So let me clarify on some of these things. First, we have a discord up and running, where we intend to rewrite this preliminary unban list. Second, this is a preliminary unban list. The format is going to be somewhat rapidly evolving, since it's basically being thrown into chaos to start off. But that's the goal: start with something kinda chaotic, then work to get it down to where it's a playable, diverse format. Now, to address some of your personal concerns so far:
I would have rather seen the ban list stay where it is for now, while rigorous testing done by a community to verify a cards health for the format. That way you shouldn't need to re ban things as often. Banning and re banning is not a way to promote format growth, but will lead to fear like wizards has done.
I think the Commander committee is what Modern should try to emulate. While they do have their issues, they are much better than what we currently have.
I also like the committee idea, but the fact of the matter is this isn't what they do. Looking specifically at "Banning and re banning is not a way to promote format growth, but will lead to fear like wizards has done," I want to say the following: this isn't necessarily about promoting the format, at least not right now (I suppose we could do that when it's in a good spot). This is about radically changing the banlist to create a better meta, with more decks readily available to play. While this first round of unbannings may not reflect that, that simply because I only wanted to unban so much at once.
Why anyone would want to play in a format where Sensei's Divining Top is legal is beyond me. The rest of your unbannings I could probably get behind. Well maybe not Glimpse of Nature..... elves doesn't need more support.
Basically what you've done with your unbannings here is turn modern into a combo format. You unban cards like Dig Through Time but you keep Bloodbraid Elf banned? Your personal preferences are considered far too much, I think.
I didn't want to unban too many cards, so I decided to give tools to aggro, combo, and control, and leave out fair midrange decks. Midrange has almost always been in a good spot, and I was curious to see how it would fair without one of its biggest unbans in BBE (although it does get Jitte).
Wow. Jitte, Top, Glimpse, GSZ, Pod, and Bloom totally OK, but Twin and BBE aren't? Fascinating.
Not really worth the time. If you don't want to have a discussion, avoid the thread. If you want to offer constructive criticism, you're welcome here.
Like I said, this is really just phase 1 of this project, and it's supposed to be something for the community to participate in. Is it balanced right now? Hell no. But the point is to collaborate on something that we all might actually enjoy. This preliminary unbanlist may (and probably will) change, and it'll change again in a month. And a month after that. Of course, this is assuming we can get enough data. The bannings/unbannings will slow down after a while, but ultimately the goal is to try to make a better modern through manipulating the banned/unbanned list. (And yes, BBE will be unbanned soon enough. Probably in March.)
Yeah, Twin still banned? Nope, thats a hard pass from me.
Read my response above (you commented after I started writing it, but before I posted it). It's not unbanned yet, but check back in March. Another wave of unbans will hit then. And actually, check out the discord. We might be rewriting this thing entirely over there soon enough.
Fair enough BACE, but I guess could you tell me why you would consider it, to start, as something needing to be on the list?
EDIT: And for full disclosure, I'm not going to lie here, a 'different modern' that doesnt include Twin is just going to set me off on the wrong foot. I play KIKI for the love of god, because I want to be playing Twin so bad. So I'm a bit partial to it, I suppose.
You un banned way too much, targeting combo, which the format has historically had an issue with. You then enable Counter Top and unban Jitte. Instead of just mass ubaning cards you think would be fun, why not look at the polls a few people have been putting up on this site. Before every ban announcement, this community votes on what it would like to see banned and be unbanned. Why not take a look at what the community wants. The community wants Preordain, SFM, Jace, Twin, and BBE, not GSZ, Jitte, Top, Shoal, Ponder, and Bloom.
Creating a combo winter is not what Modern needs. People already complain about sideboard match ups and pre turn four kills. Releasing several enablers at once will only make this worse. Sure, maybe it's only for a short time before you reban these cards, but is not good for the player base. The format does not currently have the tools to combat very fast combo. Fair cards should be looked at first, and that is coming from a Storm player!
I would look to swap bans. Batterskull for SFM and Twin for Exarch. That alone would be a great place to start, leaving everything else the same. Start small and slow or you risk upending the entire format.
Fair enough BACE, but I guess could you tell me why you would consider it, to start, as something needing to be on the list?
EDIT: And for full disclosure, I'm not going to lie here, a 'different modern' that doesnt include Twin is just going to set me off on the wrong foot. I play KIKI for the love of god, because I want to be playing Twin so bad. So I'm a bit partial to it, I suppose.
I strongly encourage you to join the discord. The current lineup of unbanned cards really doesn't look like it'll actually be the preliminary unbanned list. You can be the voice Twin needs.
You un banned way too much, targeting combo, which the format has historically had an issue with. You then enable Counter Top and unban Jitte. Instead of just mass ubaning cards you think would be fun, why not look at the polls a few people have been putting up on this site. Before every ban announcement, this community votes on what it would like to see banned and be unbanned. Why not take a look at what the community wants. The community wants Preordain, SFM, Jace, Twin, and BBE, not GSZ, Jitte, Top, Shoal, Ponder, and Bloom.
Creating a combo winter is not what Modern needs. People already complain about sideboard match ups and pre turn four kills. Releasing several enablers at once will only make this worse. Sure, maybe it's only for a short time before you reban these cards, but is not good for the player base. The format does not currently have the tools to combat very fast combo. Fair cards should be looked at first, and that is coming from a Storm player!
I would look to swap bans. Batterskull for SFM and Twin for Exarch. That alone would be a great place to start, leaving everything else the same. Start small and slow or you risk upending the entire format.
I like some of your suggestions. Perhaps join the discord? We're going to be taking a vote sometime today or tomorrow on what to actually have on the unban list, since I just really didn't have that much input to start off with. With regards to the comment about the polls, I look at those because I don't frequent MTGSalvation that much (and when I do, it's usually just in the Deck Building section).
Hi! Im interested in participating on the discord. How it's done? Nice idea man. This kind of shake up is what the community needs. I agree with others that some of the bans can be different but the initiative is the thing that counts here.
Hi! Im interested in participating on the discord. How it's done? Nice idea man. This kind of shake up is what the community needs. I agree with others that some of the bans can be different but the initiative is the thing that counts here.
Thanks for the kind words! If you want to join the discord, you can just click this link and create an account: https://discord.gg/SUhG2TA
Alternatively, you can download discord, and then join through the client using that same link.
There's a lot that I don't agree with about this, but I'll just stick to one question about the thing that is most puzzling to me. Why unban Ponder instead of Preordain?
There's a lot that I don't agree with about this, but I'll just stick to one question about the thing that is most puzzling to me. Why unban Ponder instead of Preordain?
I wanted to give blue an increased power level, so that's how I decided to go about it. In the discord we're redoing this preliminary list right now, and it's looking something more like:
Wow. Jitte, Top, Glimpse, GSZ, Pod, and Bloom totally OK, but Twin and BBE aren't? Fascinating.
Not really worth the time. If you don't want to have a discussion, avoid the thread. If you want to offer constructive criticism, you're welcome here.
Several cards you listed as safe for unban are considerably more powerful/warping/broken than either Twin or BBE. This literally feels like throwing a list against the wall and choosing the random things that stick. Nothing about this list seems balanced or realistic. Plus, it seems absurd to say that Bloom, one of the most broken and powerful combo decks of all time should be fine, but Twin is not.
Sorry if it sounds like I'm not taking this seriously, but it mostly has to do with the wacky and random feel to the cards on either side.
Wow. Jitte, Top, Glimpse, GSZ, Pod, and Bloom totally OK, but Twin and BBE aren't? Fascinating.
Not really worth the time. If you don't want to have a discussion, avoid the thread. If you want to offer constructive criticism, you're welcome here.
Several cards you listed as safe for unban are considerably more powerful/warping/broken than either Twin or BBE. This literally feels like throwing a list against the wall and choosing the random things that stick. Nothing about this list seems balanced or realistic. Plus, it seems absurd to say that Bloom, one of the most broken and powerful combo decks of all time should be fine, but Twin is not.
Sorry if it sounds like I'm not taking this seriously, but it mostly has to do with the wacky and random feel to the cards on either side.
I see where you're coming from. Not 100% sure what I was thinking on some of these, except with Twin. There were quite a few people on the reddit thread talking about how stupid unbanning Twin would be, so I tried to avoid it for the first update.
As for the preliminary unbans as a whole, we're looking at some other stuff in the discord right now. We agreed this list was much more reasonable:
Jace
Preordain
Top
Pod
Shoal
BBE
Twin
SFM
Now, we're thinking about making even smaller changes, such as switching SFM with batterskull and Twin with Exarch. I'd recommend you check out the discord.
This is a great idea but I wouldn't start where you are. WAY too many uncertainties.
The best place to start is with the last popular and relatively anger-free incarnation of Modern: right before the Twin ban. This would mean Twin, Bloom, GGT, and Probe would all be unbanned. Eye would DEFINITELY be banned. After that, the other option is to keep DRS banned and unban BBE, but that's more in the air. Modern really never recovered from the Twin ban as a format in the public's eye, and it got significantly more linear and more controversial.
The unbans you suggest are too hypothetical and could result in a disaster. Much better to start at early 2016 Modern (minus Eye) and then unban from there.
EDIT: this would be the banlist I would heartily endorse -
This is a great idea but I wouldn't start where you are. WAY too many uncertainties.
The best place to start is with the last popular and relatively anger-free incarnation of Modern: right before the Twin ban. This would mean Twin, Bloom, GGT, and Probe would all be unbanned. Eye would DEFINITELY be banned. After that, the other option is to keep DRS banned and unban BBE, but that's more in the air. Modern really never recovered from the Twin ban as a format in the public's eye, and it got significantly more linear and more controversial.
The unbans you suggest are too hypothetical and could result in a disaster. Much better to start at early 2016 Modern (minus Eye) and then unban from there.
Good points. Most of that list is down the toilet as of now. One of the things we're looking at in the discord is Unban: Twin, SFM and Ban: Exarch, Batterskull.
We're still discussing this (right now, actually). Glad to see you made it to this thread ktken.
Some of these cards are in the category of 'too good not to play.'
Dig Through Time, Green Sun's Zenith, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Ponder, Umezawa's Jitte, Sensei's Divining Top.
These cards are just simply outstanding. You need a really good reason not to run one of these in a deck.
This would turn Modern into a cream of the crop goodstuff format, where only the most powerful version of something will do.
It places more importance on getting to play more goodstuff than your opponent. Who can manage to get the extra inch of consistency in their super consistent decks?
There would be pressure to provide Modern with more early interaction. Are we headed toward unbanning Mental Misstep to serve as Modern's Force of Will? Sounds bad.
It might seem like the most broken thing on the list is Birthing Pod. People can't look at this without considering Splinter Twin gets unbanned too.
The trouble with that is that unlike Summer Bloom, Blazing Shoal and Glimpse of Nature, these kinds of strategies are more resilient to opponent's interaction. (Getting rid of an early elf or Amulet of Vigor can be a huge setback for those turn 2 combo decks. They arguably at least are high risk/high reward.)
Pod and Twin also go infinite on their combos, unlike Bloom, Shoal and Glimpse. Those more often than not hit for only just over lethal in a big turn, and do have some game of chipping away at the opponent.
Then there's the sheer dedication of deck space required for decks that would use Bloom/Shoal/Glimpse. Tight deck lists with greater sideboarding difficulty.
Pod and Twin on the other hand would degenerate the format into combo control. Their strategies allow one to dedicate as little of the deck as possible to a win condition and the rest to control and value.
The reason these decks are actually unhealthy is that they individually require narrow answers. If they get a foothold, they tremendously warp formats.
You just know it's only a matter of time before all control homogenizes into Jeskai Splinter Miracles. (Remember that Sensei's Divining Top + Counterbalance would be legal together.)
We go back to the absolute thrill that was being forced to main Abrupt Decay wherever possible. If Deathrite Shaman is legal Jund would comfortably run Blood Moon too. Unless Jeskai Splintered Miracles has a refined manabase to cope with it.
You basically engineer the most stagnant metagame ever that would require continuous releases of sets as impactful as Aether Revolt to shake up.
The more I look at it, the more this whole list looks suspicious.
It's like something someone would present to an administrative body to server later as a pretense for unbanning Splinter Twin.
So many ostensibly big bad broken things unbanned. Then Blazing Shoal and Glimpse of Nature are as Timmy as combos get (Mass Elves! 15/15 infect turn 2!)
Glimpse and Shoal are the equivalent of lifting nutritional quotas on cereal brands such that we are left with cocaine-tier sugared cardboard.
But it's ok because you're going to re-instate prohibition by making Counter-Top possible. That'll make everything healthy overall!
And then you slide lil' ol' Birthing Pod in on the side there. Like it's no big deal. Smells like a smoking gun.
OP and their discord group should consider becoming lobbyists.
Then again they could just play legacy.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Yeah. Very quickly the Discord group became a circle jerk of unban everything, with the reasoning that things can be rebanned if it's an issue. Right now they are talking about Dark Depths possibly being safe, and are seemingly against starting at a known point and moving forward. Instead it's all about unbanning everything but Mistep and Skullclamp.
With that in mind, I'm pulling out of their discussion, and believe this project is going to fail. They want to make changes that would massively alter the meta game over night, and continue to do so. Many seem to value a small ban list over healthy and diverse formats which is just not something I can get behind.
I don't think Modern has all the tools it needs with just bans and unbans. I think you need to bring in some extra tools from elsewhere. I'd also do a much stricter ban-list that lots of people would probably hate, but I feel like I should post it, although perhaps not tonight. I'll probably do it in spoilers and warn people that they'll probably be mad about it and discount it because of how strict it would be, and how totally it would reshape the format. A lot of it is theory-crafting of course, and things from it could come off the list with testing after the new format that would form stabilizes, to see how strongly they affect things. But I'd certainly be including in the format some cards currently impossible to address with bans and unbans, including Counterspell in particular.
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What I'm attempting here is a "fix" for the current banlist. Everyone constantly complains about the banlist, and how more/less stuff needs to be unbanned. Well, maybe it's time we see if we can do better. So, I present to you:
The Reformation of Modern
Eh, it's a stupid name. But it gets the point across well enough. We're going to work towards a fair and balanced metagame with transparent, data-driven banlist management. If we do this, it would be a huge project, but I think we can handle it. Our goal is to start with a much more limited banlist than the current Modern banlist and then ban/unban as needed from there. Throughout this process, we will be as transparent and data-driven as possible. Based on our early conversations, we have decided on starting points with our banlist philosophy, banlist criteria, unbanned cards, and the final banlist itself.
Banlist philosophy
The current Reformation Modern banlist
We have a discord set up for this. Feel free to stop by. I know the initial metagame might look uncertain or unbalanced, but this is the first round. Things will change. Things will settle. Things will be worked out. Join us in discussing Reformation Modern on Discord here: https://discord.gg/SUhG2TA
Attention! We're holding our first tournament! This tournament is for early results, and will not have prize support (although future tournaments will). It will start this Monday, March 20th. You can sign up here. If you do sign up, please make sure that you register your deck here (if you aren't in the discord, please put your MTGS username).
Start Date: Monday, March 20, 2017
Platform: Any. Pick one with your opponent.
Tournament Format: Swiss, cut to Top 8.
Unban List:
In here, you can find a list of community-proposed decklists for this format. I can't guarantee these will be optimal (or even good) versions of the decks, but they are what members of our small community have come up with.
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Preordain
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
4 Manamorphose
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
Acceleration (4)
4 Chrome Mox
Combo Pieces (8)
3 Past in Flames
3 Grapeshot
2 Empty the Warrens
4 Shivan Reef
4 Spirebluff Canal
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
1 Island
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull
Cantrips (8)
4 Serum Visions
4 Preordain
Removal (8)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Spell Snare
3 Logic Knot
2 Negate
Card Advantage (8)
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (21)
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Desolate Lighthouse
4 Chrome Mox
Knights (4)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
Removal (4)
4 Abrupt Decay
Card Advantage (8)
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Dark Confidant
Loam Combo (5)
4 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
Pox (4)
4 Smallpox
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
Lock Out (4)
4 Chalice of the Void
Lands (22)
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Godless Shrine
2 Marsh Flats
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Shambling Vent
2 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Vault of the Archangel
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Spike Feeder
1 Archangel of Thune
Tutor Targets (5)
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sin Collector
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
Value Creatures (13)
3 Voice of Resurgence
1 Renegade Rallier
1 Eternal Witness
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Siege Rhino
1 Restoration Angel
1 Reveillark
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
2 Wall of Roots
Tutor (4)
4 Birthing Pod
Removal (5)
1 Shriekmaw
4 Abrupt Decay
Lands (23)
4 Windswept Heath
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Swamp
2 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Godless Shrine
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Bitterblossom
2 Vendilion Clique
Stoneforge Package (7)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull
Removal (7)
4 Path to Exile
3 Fatal Push
3 Spell Snare
2 Countersquall
2 Logic Knot
Acceleration (4)
4 Chrome Mox
Cantrips (4)
4 Preordain
Lands (21)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Darkslick Shores
4x Blooming Marsh
4x Dark Depths
3x Overgrown Tomb
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1x Snow-Covered Forest
1x Snow-Covered Swamp
4x Thespian's Stage
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Chrome Mox
Tutors (16)
4x Expedition Map
4x Sylvan Scrying
4x Into the North
4x Ancient Stirrings
Disruption (11)
2x Pithing Needle
2x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Not of This World
Combo (12)
4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian's Stage
To start this off, I want to say I was very liberal in these unbannings. I wanted to give things a shot in this format, and I tried to unban tools for a variety of decks. Keep in mind that every last one of these cards is liable to be banned in a month.
So there you go. All the unbans in the first wave of our new format. Keep in mind that we have what is essentially an "experimental banlist" and that things will be unbanned, even if it seems like they shouldn't be. Every card on the current modern banlist will be unbanned at some point, so be prepared for that.
The second part of this thread is going to be me establishing ban criteria. The beginning will be filled with less strict requirements for a ban (meaning things eat the hammer more easily), and later on the requirements will become more strict. The following four guidelines are in place to police the format. Only one has to be fulfilled for something to be banned.
Ban for Meta %
If any deck holds a 20% or greater meta share for more than a month, something from that deck will be banned.
Ban for Turnover
If we hold any tournaments, and a single deck consistently (4+ tournaments) has a >60% turnover rate, a card from that deck will be banned. Please not this one will probably never be used.
Ban for Breaking the Turn-4 Rule
If any deck is able to win before turn 4 through interaction >50% of the time or have a virtual win set up (looking at you amulet bloom) and has a >5% meta share, a card from that deck will be banned.
So now, the third part of this thread: A matchfinder of sorts. If you have friends irl that you plan on testing this format with, great! Otherwise though, this thread will serve as a sort of "friend finder." Post below what platforms you're available to play on (cockatrice, XMage, untap.in, etc.), and look around for other people to play games with. I will also add your names to this thread as I find the time. They will be immediately below this:
[Reserved for Matchmaking]
Finally, the last thing. A template for sending me PMs containing match info. Using this specific template isn't required, but all the info on it is. Please make sure all match info gets to me.
**Number of Games in Match:** [Info here]
**My Deck:** [Info here (please include a full list, preferably in the form of a tappedout link)]
**# of Wins:** [Info here]
**Opponent's Reddit Name:** [Info here]
**Opponent's Deck:** [Info here]
**# of Opponent's Wins:** [Info here]
So there's the form. Feel free to use it (or not). And now we're done. I'd like to thank you all for your participation in this. Let's get to it! And remember, post what platforms you play on below so we can get testing!
Also, I want to be totally transparent with the data I'm collecting, so you can find the results of every match I receive info on here.
EDIT 2: We are no longer using the above banlist. We've decided on one that's much more conservative, but makes plenty of difference (and has a few dangerous cards as well). The current unbanlist is as follows:
This should create a much more balanced, much more fun format.
2/13/2017: Edited formatting and updated unbanlist. (ktkenshinx)
2/13/2017: Slight edits to formatting. Added sample decks. Added changelog. (BACE)
2/14/2017: Added link to the poll.
2/21/2017: Removed poll. Starting with a banlist has won.
I think the Commander committee is what Modern should try to emulate. While they do have their issues, they are much better than what we currently have.
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
Basically what you've done with your unbannings here is turn modern into a combo format. You unban cards like Dig Through Time but you keep Bloodbraid Elf banned? Your personal preferences are considered far too much, I think.
Draft My Cube!
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Spirits
I also like the committee idea, but the fact of the matter is this isn't what they do. Looking specifically at "Banning and re banning is not a way to promote format growth, but will lead to fear like wizards has done," I want to say the following: this isn't necessarily about promoting the format, at least not right now (I suppose we could do that when it's in a good spot). This is about radically changing the banlist to create a better meta, with more decks readily available to play. While this first round of unbannings may not reflect that, that simply because I only wanted to unban so much at once.
I didn't want to unban too many cards, so I decided to give tools to aggro, combo, and control, and leave out fair midrange decks. Midrange has almost always been in a good spot, and I was curious to see how it would fair without one of its biggest unbans in BBE (although it does get Jitte).
Not really worth the time. If you don't want to have a discussion, avoid the thread. If you want to offer constructive criticism, you're welcome here.
Like I said, this is really just phase 1 of this project, and it's supposed to be something for the community to participate in. Is it balanced right now? Hell no. But the point is to collaborate on something that we all might actually enjoy. This preliminary unbanlist may (and probably will) change, and it'll change again in a month. And a month after that. Of course, this is assuming we can get enough data. The bannings/unbannings will slow down after a while, but ultimately the goal is to try to make a better modern through manipulating the banned/unbanned list. (And yes, BBE will be unbanned soon enough. Probably in March.)
Read my response above (you commented after I started writing it, but before I posted it). It's not unbanned yet, but check back in March. Another wave of unbans will hit then. And actually, check out the discord. We might be rewriting this thing entirely over there soon enough.
EDIT: And for full disclosure, I'm not going to lie here, a 'different modern' that doesnt include Twin is just going to set me off on the wrong foot. I play KIKI for the love of god, because I want to be playing Twin so bad. So I'm a bit partial to it, I suppose.
Spirits
Creating a combo winter is not what Modern needs. People already complain about sideboard match ups and pre turn four kills. Releasing several enablers at once will only make this worse. Sure, maybe it's only for a short time before you reban these cards, but is not good for the player base. The format does not currently have the tools to combat very fast combo. Fair cards should be looked at first, and that is coming from a Storm player!
I would look to swap bans. Batterskull for SFM and Twin for Exarch. That alone would be a great place to start, leaving everything else the same. Start small and slow or you risk upending the entire format.
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
I strongly encourage you to join the discord. The current lineup of unbanned cards really doesn't look like it'll actually be the preliminary unbanned list. You can be the voice Twin needs.
I like some of your suggestions. Perhaps join the discord? We're going to be taking a vote sometime today or tomorrow on what to actually have on the unban list, since I just really didn't have that much input to start off with. With regards to the comment about the polls, I look at those because I don't frequent MTGSalvation that much (and when I do, it's usually just in the Deck Building section).
Tron
Spirits
Thanks for the kind words! If you want to join the discord, you can just click this link and create an account: https://discord.gg/SUhG2TA
Alternatively, you can download discord, and then join through the client using that same link.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I wanted to give blue an increased power level, so that's how I decided to go about it. In the discord we're redoing this preliminary list right now, and it's looking something more like:
Jace
Preordain
Top
Pod
Shoal
BBE
Twin
SFM
Where did it all go so damn wrong...lol
Spirits
Several cards you listed as safe for unban are considerably more powerful/warping/broken than either Twin or BBE. This literally feels like throwing a list against the wall and choosing the random things that stick. Nothing about this list seems balanced or realistic. Plus, it seems absurd to say that Bloom, one of the most broken and powerful combo decks of all time should be fine, but Twin is not.
Sorry if it sounds like I'm not taking this seriously, but it mostly has to do with the wacky and random feel to the cards on either side.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/modern-archives/727161-what-cards-if-any-do-you-think-should-be-unbanned
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/modern-archives/632936-what-cards-if-any-do-you-think-should-be-banned-in
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/modern-archives/632934-what-cards-if-any-do-you-think-should-be-unbanned
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/modern-archives/766721-polls-what-cards-do-you-want-banned-or-unbanned
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
I see where you're coming from. Not 100% sure what I was thinking on some of these, except with Twin. There were quite a few people on the reddit thread talking about how stupid unbanning Twin would be, so I tried to avoid it for the first update.
As for the preliminary unbans as a whole, we're looking at some other stuff in the discord right now. We agreed this list was much more reasonable:
Jace
Preordain
Top
Pod
Shoal
BBE
Twin
SFM
Now, we're thinking about making even smaller changes, such as switching SFM with batterskull and Twin with Exarch. I'd recommend you check out the discord.
The best place to start is with the last popular and relatively anger-free incarnation of Modern: right before the Twin ban. This would mean Twin, Bloom, GGT, and Probe would all be unbanned. Eye would DEFINITELY be banned. After that, the other option is to keep DRS banned and unban BBE, but that's more in the air. Modern really never recovered from the Twin ban as a format in the public's eye, and it got significantly more linear and more controversial.
The unbans you suggest are too hypothetical and could result in a disaster. Much better to start at early 2016 Modern (minus Eye) and then unban from there.
EDIT: this would be the banlist I would heartily endorse -
BBE could get a question mark. So could Bloom I suppose.
In essence, we're rolling back the format to its last stable state and going from there.
Good points. Most of that list is down the toilet as of now. One of the things we're looking at in the discord is Unban: Twin, SFM and Ban: Exarch, Batterskull.
We're still discussing this (right now, actually). Glad to see you made it to this thread ktken.
Dig Through Time, Green Sun's Zenith, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Ponder, Umezawa's Jitte, Sensei's Divining Top.
These cards are just simply outstanding. You need a really good reason not to run one of these in a deck.
This would turn Modern into a cream of the crop goodstuff format, where only the most powerful version of something will do.
It places more importance on getting to play more goodstuff than your opponent. Who can manage to get the extra inch of consistency in their super consistent decks?
If you unban those, you open the door for unbanningDeathrite Shaman, Punishing Fire, Bloodbraid Elf.
Another category looks like 'Yeah, ok, how about making Modern a turn 2 format?'
Summer Bloom, Glimpse of Nature, Blazing Shoal
There would be pressure to provide Modern with more early interaction. Are we headed toward unbanning Mental Misstep to serve as Modern's Force of Will? Sounds bad.
It might seem like the most broken thing on the list is Birthing Pod. People can't look at this without considering Splinter Twin gets unbanned too.
The trouble with that is that unlike Summer Bloom, Blazing Shoal and Glimpse of Nature, these kinds of strategies are more resilient to opponent's interaction. (Getting rid of an early elf or Amulet of Vigor can be a huge setback for those turn 2 combo decks. They arguably at least are high risk/high reward.)
Pod and Twin also go infinite on their combos, unlike Bloom, Shoal and Glimpse. Those more often than not hit for only just over lethal in a big turn, and do have some game of chipping away at the opponent.
Then there's the sheer dedication of deck space required for decks that would use Bloom/Shoal/Glimpse. Tight deck lists with greater sideboarding difficulty.
Pod and Twin on the other hand would degenerate the format into combo control. Their strategies allow one to dedicate as little of the deck as possible to a win condition and the rest to control and value.
The reason these decks are actually unhealthy is that they individually require narrow answers. If they get a foothold, they tremendously warp formats.
You just know it's only a matter of time before all control homogenizes into Jeskai Splinter Miracles. (Remember that Sensei's Divining Top + Counterbalance would be legal together.)
We go back to the absolute thrill that was being forced to main Abrupt Decay wherever possible. If Deathrite Shaman is legal Jund would comfortably run Blood Moon too. Unless Jeskai Splintered Miracles has a refined manabase to cope with it.
You basically engineer the most stagnant metagame ever that would require continuous releases of sets as impactful as Aether Revolt to shake up.
The more I look at it, the more this whole list looks suspicious.
It's like something someone would present to an administrative body to server later as a pretense for unbanning Splinter Twin.
So many ostensibly big bad broken things unbanned. Then Blazing Shoal and Glimpse of Nature are as Timmy as combos get (Mass Elves! 15/15 infect turn 2!)
Glimpse and Shoal are the equivalent of lifting nutritional quotas on cereal brands such that we are left with cocaine-tier sugared cardboard.
But it's ok because you're going to re-instate prohibition by making Counter-Top possible. That'll make everything healthy overall!
And then you slide lil' ol' Birthing Pod in on the side there. Like it's no big deal. Smells like a smoking gun.
OP and their discord group should consider becoming lobbyists.
Then again they could just play legacy.
"OH GOD MY BRAIN IS EXPLOADING AT HOW BAD THE ART IS ON MY OWN CARD"
-A friend's first impression of Ancestral Recall
10/10, I tapped.
With that in mind, I'm pulling out of their discussion, and believe this project is going to fail. They want to make changes that would massively alter the meta game over night, and continue to do so. Many seem to value a small ban list over healthy and diverse formats which is just not something I can get behind.
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
Spirits