I think the OP has the right intentions but the whole thing is poorly executed. It would've been easier to gain public interest if you were testing commonly accepted safe cards such as Splinter Twin first opposed to Umezawa's Jitte and Summer Bloom. Not to say those cards shouldn't receive their due process but it's easier to attract bees with honey rather than vinegar.
I agree with Ktkenshinx's approach, start with a pre-Twin ban list, minus Eye of Ugin and work your way from there.
Yeah. Very quickly the Discord group became a circle jerk of unban everything, with the reasoning that things can be rebanned if it's an issue. Right now they are talking about Dark Depths possibly being safe, and are seemingly against starting at a known point and moving forward. Instead it's all about unbanning everything but Mistep and Skullclamp.
With that in mind, I'm pulling out of their discussion, and believe this project is going to fail. They want to make changes that would massively alter the meta game over night, and continue to do so. Many seem to value a small ban list over healthy and diverse formats which is just not something I can get behind.
It's not a life or death situation; if it fails it fails and if it doesn't then great. I like the idea and I'm interested to see how it pans out. Surely more productive than just sitting around and *****ing about the format.
IMO the problem with the format is with the support we get from wizards and at large events. The banlist is not the problem and doesn't need any changes. I must say though I love the idea of unbanning SFM and banning Batterskull. Any similar approach to other card pairings would probably get my vote. Unban Punishing Fire and ban Burnwillows. Unban Twin and ban Exarch. Unban BBE and ban...nothing? Lol
Any issue with modern stems from a supply shortfall, the price of mma boosters or a lack of high-profile tournament support. These are the driving factors behind the success of modern. Not the banlist. That said; Some constructive criticism, If I may?
A surefire way to get people on board with an idea like this would be to start with the current principles behind the format, and go from there. Not just go full-ham-chaotic with your unbans. The chaotic choice naturally makes people wonder why certain choices were picked over others, and before they even play any games, the principle of your "revolution format" is undermined.
Honestly; start with the cards most likely to see an unban, and go from there. Pitch it more like a "this could be the future if modern" rather than a pie in the sky idea that no-one can realistically get behind.
Just as an example, sensei's divining top can't ever come off the banlist. This isn't an issue of power but of people going to time in tournaments. It's a logistical nightmare. Just arbitrarily saying "yeah unban it" undermines what I think you are trying to do here (which presumably is show that certain cards are able to be unbanned and send a message to the folks upstairs who do the actual banlist changes).
Just do the obvious ones first and go from there. Otherwise what's the point. You don't learn anything from the chaotic approach. There's too many variables, and any one of the bonkers cards you've chosen to unban first could upset a metagame. How can you realistically re-ban anything when it's such a mess of conflicting powerful effects? You are biting off more than you can chew with the arbitrary approach.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
This is the right idea, but truthfully, your modifications of the current banned list are highly controversial to say the least.
This is what I would do;
1. Start this new format with Mercadian Masques forward - This argument just stands on the crux that there are awkward police cards, and also cards that push the boundaries and make strategies interesting. Invigorate would be an auto include in Infect, but we would also get tools to police such cards like Daze and Snuff Out. We would also gain access to cards like Rishadan Port, which may be the card most people are asking for when it comes to Land-Hate as a neutral card most decks could utilize in a fair manner.
Mercadian Masques forward also gives us powerful options in both combo and midrange strategies, which is what our current situation lacks completely. From Burning Wish to Mind's Desire, to Pernicious Deed, Undermine, Absorb, and last but not least, Counterspell. we would have amazing tools for so many decks to thrive in their unique ways, and could finally be played in a format other than Legacy.
All that being said, I feel the only cards that would need watch are the free mana cards, namely Cabal Ritual, and Dark Ritual would obviously be added to the banned list. There aren't many cards with all these extra blocks that would ever increase the Russian Roulette/Two Ships Passing in the night problem we currently face in Modern now.
2. Redefine what banning actually requires in order to proceed - This will be actually more difficult than I can ever explain over a post, but we need some concrete rules as to what it takes for something to be banned. It's great and fantastic to have a banned list with certain goals, such as archetype diversity and color diversity, but player satisfaction above all. We can see this prime example in Legacy, where people just simply accept that blue is the dominant color, and if they choose so, either play it or play against it on principle. It causes upset, but it also causes underdogs, deck such as Goblins, Death and Taxes, Jund, Junk, Stax, Lands, and Stompy (of all varieties) all thrive when blue decks are prominent enough to warrant action. Modern doesn't have deep enough of a card pool, or the people managing the banned list to have enough patience to see these features of a format emerge.
Here is what I would propose as a set of stated goals for a banned list;
Endorse Archetypal Balance- Level Priority 1; Here we would explain what archetypes are actually classified, and would distinguish Aggro, Combo, Ramp, Control and Midrange, and aim as best we can for 20% shares of each. We know this is near impossible, but it doesn't mean it requires anything but the most effort possible. Endorse Color Balance - Level Priority 2; In this priority, we would encourage different colors across the spectrum, for example, 50% of the format being blue is super bad, but if 40% of the format was blue, yet we saw archetypes see success across all the spectrum close to the 20% mark, we would then give leniency towards this rule. Endorse Alternate options within Archetypal Balance - Level Priority 3; in this final priority, we would want alternate options for tiered decks. We don't want only Jund being successful as the midrange deck, and we also don't want some version of Splinter Twin being the only Tempo/Combo deck.
Then after a list like this is completed, we would obviously have Tournament Factor bans, such as Sensei's Divining Top, and Second Sunrise.
My draft list for a Mercadian Masques Forward Banned list would be as such;
I'd actually run a no banlist first to see where things stand with all the new additions that have come with the format, then afterwards run through and do the banlist. The primary reason is that we've been living with a ban list for so long we have no idea what the format may look like without the bannings (except for freaking Sensei's Divining Top. I lived through that card in Kamigawa and I've had to sit through games where someone is just fiddling around with top for no reason other than to annoy everyone playing). A no-ban modern run for a month would probably be a good way to get things set up again and probably just reconfirm a lot of things for what is broken.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Just a thought I've had that fits along a large format change. I wonder how an expansion of sets would play out for modern.
Something like every major set from invasion on. If you look through these set most of the truly powerful stuff in legacy is not there. Would add better answers, possibly new stratigies, and some better card filtering.
The next step. Would probably unban the questionable stuff from the modern ban list and see if the format can self regulate.
Just saw the post above mine suggesting masks and would love a chance to play test. Would anyone want to start a Facebook/ reddit group and test?
Lots of zany and fairly arbitrary banlist decisions that would require significant work to test, balance, and tune. By far the most stable and justifiable options are as follows.
1. Rollback to right before the Twin ban, but ban Eye. We revert Modern to what was widely regarded as a stable state, but add in the Eye ban because it was literally the most broken thing in Modern's history from a meta perspective. Then we unban or ban from there.
2. No bans at all. Start banning cards from a no banlist state and craft the format from the ground up. This bypasses the highly subjective bans in the community cup and those before the cup even happened.
We can't make everyone happy with these ideas. We also shouldn't try. Our goal is just to make the most stable and balanced Modern we can with transparent and justifiable bans. Eithet of these cutoffs best accomplish this with the least degree of subjectivity.
Lots of zany and fairly arbitrary banlist decisions that would require significant work to test, balance, and tune. By far the most stable and justifiable options are as follows.
1. Rollback to right before the Twin ban, but ban Eye. We revert Modern to what was widely regarded as a stable state, but add in the Eye ban because it was literally the most broken thing in Modern's history from a meta perspective. Then we unban or ban from there.
2. No bans at all. Start banning cards from a no banlist state and craft the format from the ground up. This bypasses the highly subjective bans in the community cup and those before the cup even happened.
We can't make everyone happy with these ideas. We also shouldn't try. Our goal is just to make the most stable and balanced Modern we can with transparent and justifiable bans. Eithet of these cutoffs best accomplish this with the least degree of subjectivity.
We have something in the middle right now, I think. Our current unban list is:
It's not perfect, but it frees storm, pod, and twin, while creating new decks in Depths and SFM, and also gives new tools to current decks in the form of Probe and BBE. It isn't perfect, but I think it's a decent place to start. I'd suggest you check out the discord. We have 30 people so far who have joined it, and some good discussion happens for sure.
We've also established what we consider our official "goal:" The smallest possible banlist, while also maintaining a diverse, healthy, fun metagame.
I'm not too stoked about Seething Song, Mox and Dark Depths, but that's fine given the amount of unbans that fairer decks are receiving. That list gives a little something for almost everyone. Storm can be storm again, while Control finally has some worth wild tools.
All in all a much better starting point than preciously.
It's not perfect, but it frees storm, pod, and twin, while creating new decks in Depths and SFM, and also gives new tools to current decks in the form of Probe and BBE. It isn't perfect, but I think it's a decent place to start. I'd suggest you check out the discord. We have 30 people so far who have joined it, and some good discussion happens for sure.
We've also established what we consider our official "goal:" The smallest possible banlist, while also maintaining a diverse, healthy, fun metagame.
We should really create a poll. If people want to subject themselves to ban list modifications, we can't just completely spit in the face of old extended. You cannot allow Thopter-Depths in it's best form. I'm sure the majority of players on this forum would catch that.
The problem with this idea is you could group any 10, 20, 30, 50 actual players of the format and every group is going to have a different idea of whats 'best' for the format. The range of what the groups want are all over the place too. Some want more power, more brokenness, more control, more tutors, less power, more bans, more unbans.. just to name a few off the top of my head.
Personally I dont believe unbanning a group of cards is a good idea. One or two are fine. Its easy to see which card it was if there is a problem. But unbanning multiple cards makes it harder to nail down to which cards are the problem.
One other thing not brought up, whos to say the 'new' idea for the format will be profitable for Wotc and LGS? For something like this to work, you need to prove to Wotc its more then a bunch of pissed off players wanting something else without thinking of all the ramifications. And yes, there is a group of players that would walk away if you drastically changed the format. How many, that would be unknown until it happened. By then its too late for Wotc if the ramifications are that negative.
The range of what the groups want are all over the place too. Some want more power, more brokenness, more control, more tutors, less power, more bans, more unbans.. just to name a few off the top of my head.
There are players who play Modern that want less power and more bans?
The range of what the groups want are all over the place too. Some want more power, more brokenness, more control, more tutors, less power, more bans, more unbans.. just to name a few off the top of my head.
There are players who play Modern that want less power and more bans?
If you get out and actually play the format and listen to the other players. Yes.
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The range of what the groups want are all over the place too. Some want more power, more brokenness, more control, more tutors, less power, more bans, more unbans.. just to name a few off the top of my head.
There are players who play Modern that want less power and more bans?
Just the other day there was a poster making a big hoo-ha about RW prison being broken so yeah those people are out there. Ban blood moon, ban SSG etc you know the usual stuff.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
I would suggest, if there are issues with cards that are known, make it known.
I personally didnt play when Depths was a thing, nor Mox. I know the potential of Seething Song, but its not like Storm is ripping it up, and who doesnt like some Dragon Storm?
Nobody is saying we have to get it right immediately, and while the safe bet is as ktk says the pre-Twin ban meta + ban Eye, nothing is set in stone, so just go in, discuss and test.
If there are cards that you feel are busted (you being anyone!) just articulate why.
We've also established what we consider our official "goal:" The smallest possible banlist, while also maintaining a diverse, healthy, fun metagame.
I suggest you edit the OP, and also make this a finalized decision, or else this thread and the discord will continue arguing about what should or shouldnt be banned, and that discussion will go nowhere.
2. No bans at all. Start banning cards from a no banlist state and craft the format from the ground up. This bypasses the highly subjective bans in the community cup and those before the cup even happened.
I like this idea and it's the most reasonable. Besides, having Miracles vs Dredge vs Eldrazi vs Burn vs Infect vs Caw Blade vs 12Post vs Jund vs Maverick vs Affinity vs Storm vs Bloom vs Death and Taxes vs Treasure Delver wouldn't be the most undiverse meta either.
I actually don't even think Twin would be good enough in an Unban Meta
I've been behind a JTMS unban for a few months now. I don't think it would BREAK the format. I can see an unban of it to be similar to what happened to ancestral vision, where it won't do anything broken but the price will jump, except maybe even higher than vision
2. No bans at all. Start banning cards from a no banlist state and craft the format from the ground up. This bypasses the highly subjective bans in the community cup and those before the cup even happened.
Honestly I feel like this is how every format should start off. Sure, there are things we can see broken miles away, but I always felt we should actually let the format break itself in the first few months of its introduction so we can statistically collect the data of how it broke, no matter how redundant it seems to be. Then again I've always felt that when it came to matters concerning banning, it should always come from statistics and not "assumption/predictions" as though it was some sort of design instead.
I can sort of understand why WotC does it, because their main objective is sales and a couple months' of chaos does impact that, but ultimately design-based "predictions" just aren't as reliable as good-ol' statistics and if the end-goal is to engineer the "perfect" Modern ("perfect" like you said that's technically not achievable, we can't please everyone), then it should be strictly run in statistical reports.
Unbans:
Jace doesn't look like he's really that bad in Modern, especially after how much of a non-event Ancestral Vision turned out. I have a hard time justifying Bloodbraid Elf while stuff like the Expertises are legal, and it doesn't appear to actually be that powerful in Modern, I recall it's ban was more related to Jund, which turned out to be more the fault of things like DShaman, plus there are a bunch of other cards related to the deck it was causing trouble in that are getting banned here, so I doubt it's as much of a threat anymore. While I can see Ponder being an issue, I have trouble justifying keeping Preordain banned, it's powerful, but it seems like it is safe and in color.
Adds: Various adds have different reasons, some of them probably aren't really neccesary for the format, some of them are intended to help with missing spots in the format, some are supposed to help with making up for newly banned things, and some are meant to open up some new strategic options. Counterspell in particular was added because of the need to be able to allow control decks to grow, and enable a real 'turn 4 format' where combo can grow under the policing of control, rather than policing of bans.
Bans:Some cards are just too strong for the decks they turn up in and too flexible, turning up potentially in too many decks across multiple archetypes, and too hard to counter-play for their mana costs for too many decks, like Tarmogoyf. Some are extremely unfriendly to counter-play for their mana costs or effective costs of play in the format, like TS, IoK, Eidolon, Skullcrack, A's Command, and such. Some hate too strongly on basic lands in ways that disrupts format potential, like Boil, Boiling Seas, Choke, and Flashfires. Some slow down the game too much with regular use and complicate interactions with land bases too much, like the fetchlands. Some break fundamental aspects of the game's math and interactions with various card types like pump spells to the point that every new pump spell threatens to put them over the edge like some of the efficient infect creatures I included. Some shut down games too hard for their mana costs (or card types) like BMoon and EBridge. Some overly empower decks that aren't really paying for it, or are rivals for the banned Ponder yet mysteriously get a pass, like Ancient Stirrings and Oath of Nissa. Some shut down fringe strategies too hard like IoK, TS, and Abrupt Decay, shrinking the format too much. Some are too much power for too easy in Modern to pay costs in the right decks, like Cranial Plating, Tasigur, or Become Immense and the other delve cards. Surgical is too close to the banned Gitprobe, less reliable, sure, but too much potential for what is essentially strategic insurance + card advantage with no mana costs. Burnwillows is too good a land in general, and has suspiciously dangerous potential for weird fringe combos turning up in the future. Canopy is too easy to turn into card advantage after using it as a land when you no longer need it, and when one of it's colors is supposed to be bad at card draw. Opal and Simian are too easy of sources for Fast Mana. Snapcaster potentially breaks otherwise fair instant and sorcery spells, and I believe would be too much more dangerous with how many rival stuff got hit by other bans, plus I know some people's concern about him combined with the added to the format counterspell, it's also just a bit too much card advantage-ishness at 2 cmc, both cheaply letting you reccur something from the graveyard quickly, which was thus likely already useful in the game, and putting down a flash body with relatively decent power for blue. Gifts sets up graveyard play too easily, and seems a bit off-color when used that way on top of that. DConfidant is too cheap and reliable for what it does, it's got better drawbacks than goyf, but it still edges into the danger zone, and has a nice benefit that a lot of 'lite' versions that fit into different potential decks have been printed lately to make it a safer ban than it perhaps used to be, but need to be built around more.
TS and IoK and the Moon pair are some of the ones I'm most concerned about banning, I'm hoping that things like Duress can pick up the needed slack for discard, and that getting rid of Moon won't cause Tron to become too much of a problem, because there wasn't cards I could really think of that seemed like they'd effectively help with tron in the right mana cost range and such that weren't also too powerful to add that already exist, but I'm hoping stuff still in the format that is a bit more single-target and the addition of Skyshroud critters and From the Ashes can make up for it.
I'd want to see how this format shakes out before adding or removing things from the new lists. I'd be also willing to be relatively generous in adding things that look safe in big chunks from supplementary products, so long as they aren't on the reserved list and aren't things like un-cards, I only added a relatively small list of them to start off, since it would take too long to make a much bigger list and go through all the relevant cards at once (which is basically anything that I think would be safe and follows some of the above noted rules, like not on the reserved list, although I might hold off on some things extremely unlikely to be reprinted that already have supply problems, like ones using dead/dying mechanics WotC avoids now, like Shroud, Protection, and landwalk).
Unbans:
Jace doesn't look like he's really that bad in Modern, especially after how much of a non-event Ancestral Vision turned out. I have a hard time justifying Bloodbraid Elf while stuff like the Expertises are legal, and it doesn't appear to actually be that powerful in Modern, I recall it's ban was more related to Jund, which turned out to be more the fault of things like DShaman, plus there are a bunch of other cards related to the deck it was causing trouble in that are getting banned here, so I doubt it's as much of a threat anymore. While I can see Ponder being an issue, I have trouble justifying keeping Preordain banned, it's powerful, but it seems like it is safe and in color.
Adds: Various adds have different reasons, some of them probably aren't really neccesary for the format, some of them are intended to help with missing spots in the format, some are supposed to help with making up for newly banned things, and some are meant to open up some new strategic options. Counterspell in particular was added because of the need to be able to allow control decks to grow, and enable a real 'turn 4 format' where combo can grow under the policing of control, rather than policing of bans.
Bans:Some cards are just too strong for the decks they turn up in and too flexible, turning up potentially in too many decks across multiple archetypes, and too hard to counter-play for their mana costs for too many decks, like Tarmogoyf. Some are extremely unfriendly to counter-play for their mana costs or effective costs of play in the format, like TS, IoK, Eidolon, Skullcrack, A's Command, and such. Some hate too strongly on basic lands in ways that disrupts format potential, like Boil, Boiling Seas, Choke, and Flashfires. Some slow down the game too much with regular use and complicate interactions with land bases too much, like the fetchlands. Some break fundamental aspects of the game's math and interactions with various card types like pump spells to the point that every new pump spell threatens to put them over the edge like some of the efficient infect creatures I included. Some shut down games too hard for their mana costs (or card types) like BMoon and EBridge. Some overly empower decks that aren't really paying for it, or are rivals for the banned Ponder yet mysteriously get a pass, like Ancient Stirrings and Oath of Nissa. Some shut down fringe strategies too hard like IoK, TS, and Abrupt Decay, shrinking the format too much. Some are too much power for too easy in Modern to pay costs in the right decks, like Cranial Plating, Tasigur, or Become Immense and the other delve cards. Surgical is too close to the banned Gitprobe, less reliable, sure, but too much potential for what is essentially strategic insurance + card advantage with no mana costs. Burnwillows is too good a land in general, and has suspiciously dangerous potential for weird fringe combos turning up in the future. Canopy is too easy to turn into card advantage after using it as a land when you no longer need it, and when one of it's colors is supposed to be bad at card draw. Opal and Simian are too easy of sources for Fast Mana. Snapcaster potentially breaks otherwise fair instant and sorcery spells, and I believe would be too much more dangerous with how many rival stuff got hit by other bans, plus I know some people's concern about him combined with the added to the format counterspell, it's also just a bit too much card advantage-ishness at 2 cmc, both cheaply letting you reccur something from the graveyard quickly, which was thus likely already useful in the game, and putting down a flash body with relatively decent power for blue. Gifts sets up graveyard play too easily, and seems a bit off-color when used that way on top of that. DConfidant is too cheap and reliable for what it does, it's got better drawbacks than goyf, but it still edges into the danger zone, and has a nice benefit that a lot of 'lite' versions that fit into different potential decks have been printed lately to make it a safer ban than it perhaps used to be, but need to be built around more.
TS and IoK and the Moon pair are some of the ones I'm most concerned about banning, I'm hoping that things like Duress can pick up the needed slack for discard, and that getting rid of Moon won't cause Tron to become too much of a problem, because there wasn't cards I could really think of that seemed like they'd effectively help with tron in the right mana cost range and such that weren't also too powerful to add that already exist, but I'm hoping stuff still in the format that is a bit more single-target and the addition of Skyshroud critters and From the Ashes can make up for it.
I'd want to see how this format shakes out before adding or removing things from the new lists. I'd be also willing to be relatively generous in adding things that look safe in big chunks from supplementary products, so long as they aren't on the reserved list and aren't things like un-cards, I only added a relatively small list of them to start off, since it would take too long to make a much bigger list and go through all the relevant cards at once (which is basically anything that I think would be safe and follows some of the above noted rules, like not on the reserved list, although I might hold off on some things extremely unlikely to be reprinted that already have supply problems, like ones using dead/dying mechanics WotC avoids now, like Shroud, Protection, and landwalk).
Moon should never be banned. And Counterspell would render control to the top. Most of the other cards would be too strong. Jace, sure, unban him. But seriously, that list? Would kill every deck there is. Sorry, but no. No.... Just hell no.
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I agree with Ktkenshinx's approach, start with a pre-Twin ban list, minus Eye of Ugin and work your way from there.
SFM
Twin
Jace
BBE
Pod
Seething
Probe
Chrome Mix
Dark Depths
And I think other the first 4 the list has some iffy ones.
Early days, folks just testing.
Spirits
It's not a life or death situation; if it fails it fails and if it doesn't then great. I like the idea and I'm interested to see how it pans out. Surely more productive than just sitting around and *****ing about the format.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Draft My Cube!
A surefire way to get people on board with an idea like this would be to start with the current principles behind the format, and go from there. Not just go full-ham-chaotic with your unbans. The chaotic choice naturally makes people wonder why certain choices were picked over others, and before they even play any games, the principle of your "revolution format" is undermined.
Honestly; start with the cards most likely to see an unban, and go from there. Pitch it more like a "this could be the future if modern" rather than a pie in the sky idea that no-one can realistically get behind.
Just as an example, sensei's divining top can't ever come off the banlist. This isn't an issue of power but of people going to time in tournaments. It's a logistical nightmare. Just arbitrarily saying "yeah unban it" undermines what I think you are trying to do here (which presumably is show that certain cards are able to be unbanned and send a message to the folks upstairs who do the actual banlist changes).
Just do the obvious ones first and go from there. Otherwise what's the point. You don't learn anything from the chaotic approach. There's too many variables, and any one of the bonkers cards you've chosen to unban first could upset a metagame. How can you realistically re-ban anything when it's such a mess of conflicting powerful effects? You are biting off more than you can chew with the arbitrary approach.
This is what I would do;
1. Start this new format with Mercadian Masques forward - This argument just stands on the crux that there are awkward police cards, and also cards that push the boundaries and make strategies interesting. Invigorate would be an auto include in Infect, but we would also get tools to police such cards like Daze and Snuff Out. We would also gain access to cards like Rishadan Port, which may be the card most people are asking for when it comes to Land-Hate as a neutral card most decks could utilize in a fair manner.
Mercadian Masques forward also gives us powerful options in both combo and midrange strategies, which is what our current situation lacks completely. From Burning Wish to Mind's Desire, to Pernicious Deed, Undermine, Absorb, and last but not least, Counterspell. we would have amazing tools for so many decks to thrive in their unique ways, and could finally be played in a format other than Legacy.
All that being said, I feel the only cards that would need watch are the free mana cards, namely Cabal Ritual, and Dark Ritual would obviously be added to the banned list. There aren't many cards with all these extra blocks that would ever increase the Russian Roulette/Two Ships Passing in the night problem we currently face in Modern now.
2. Redefine what banning actually requires in order to proceed - This will be actually more difficult than I can ever explain over a post, but we need some concrete rules as to what it takes for something to be banned. It's great and fantastic to have a banned list with certain goals, such as archetype diversity and color diversity, but player satisfaction above all. We can see this prime example in Legacy, where people just simply accept that blue is the dominant color, and if they choose so, either play it or play against it on principle. It causes upset, but it also causes underdogs, deck such as Goblins, Death and Taxes, Jund, Junk, Stax, Lands, and Stompy (of all varieties) all thrive when blue decks are prominent enough to warrant action. Modern doesn't have deep enough of a card pool, or the people managing the banned list to have enough patience to see these features of a format emerge.
Here is what I would propose as a set of stated goals for a banned list;
Endorse Archetypal Balance- Level Priority 1; Here we would explain what archetypes are actually classified, and would distinguish Aggro, Combo, Ramp, Control and Midrange, and aim as best we can for 20% shares of each. We know this is near impossible, but it doesn't mean it requires anything but the most effort possible.
Endorse Color Balance - Level Priority 2; In this priority, we would encourage different colors across the spectrum, for example, 50% of the format being blue is super bad, but if 40% of the format was blue, yet we saw archetypes see success across all the spectrum close to the 20% mark, we would then give leniency towards this rule.
Endorse Alternate options within Archetypal Balance - Level Priority 3; in this final priority, we would want alternate options for tiered decks. We don't want only Jund being successful as the midrange deck, and we also don't want some version of Splinter Twin being the only Tempo/Combo deck.
Then after a list like this is completed, we would obviously have Tournament Factor bans, such as Sensei's Divining Top, and Second Sunrise.
My draft list for a Mercadian Masques Forward Banned list would be as such;
Blazing Shoal
Cabal Ritual
Chrome Mox
Cloudpost
Dark Depths
Dark Ritual
Dig Through Time
Dread Return
Eye of Ugin
Glimpse of Nature
Gush
Hypergenesis
Mental Misstep
Rite of Flame
Skullclamp
Second Sunrise
Sensei's Divining Top
Treasure Cruise
Let me know what you guys think, together I think we can come up with a better format than what Wizards wants.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Something like every major set from invasion on. If you look through these set most of the truly powerful stuff in legacy is not there. Would add better answers, possibly new stratigies, and some better card filtering.
The next step. Would probably unban the questionable stuff from the modern ban list and see if the format can self regulate.
Just saw the post above mine suggesting masks and would love a chance to play test. Would anyone want to start a Facebook/ reddit group and test?
1. Rollback to right before the Twin ban, but ban Eye. We revert Modern to what was widely regarded as a stable state, but add in the Eye ban because it was literally the most broken thing in Modern's history from a meta perspective. Then we unban or ban from there.
2. No bans at all. Start banning cards from a no banlist state and craft the format from the ground up. This bypasses the highly subjective bans in the community cup and those before the cup even happened.
We can't make everyone happy with these ideas. We also shouldn't try. Our goal is just to make the most stable and balanced Modern we can with transparent and justifiable bans. Eithet of these cutoffs best accomplish this with the least degree of subjectivity.
We have something in the middle right now, I think. Our current unban list is:
It's not perfect, but it frees storm, pod, and twin, while creating new decks in Depths and SFM, and also gives new tools to current decks in the form of Probe and BBE. It isn't perfect, but I think it's a decent place to start. I'd suggest you check out the discord. We have 30 people so far who have joined it, and some good discussion happens for sure.
We've also established what we consider our official "goal:" The smallest possible banlist, while also maintaining a diverse, healthy, fun metagame.
All in all a much better starting point than preciously.
We should really create a poll. If people want to subject themselves to ban list modifications, we can't just completely spit in the face of old extended. You cannot allow Thopter-Depths in it's best form. I'm sure the majority of players on this forum would catch that.
Personally I dont believe unbanning a group of cards is a good idea. One or two are fine. Its easy to see which card it was if there is a problem. But unbanning multiple cards makes it harder to nail down to which cards are the problem.
One other thing not brought up, whos to say the 'new' idea for the format will be profitable for Wotc and LGS? For something like this to work, you need to prove to Wotc its more then a bunch of pissed off players wanting something else without thinking of all the ramifications. And yes, there is a group of players that would walk away if you drastically changed the format. How many, that would be unknown until it happened. By then its too late for Wotc if the ramifications are that negative.
There are players who play Modern that want less power and more bans?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
If you get out and actually play the format and listen to the other players. Yes.
Just the other day there was a poster making a big hoo-ha about RW prison being broken so yeah those people are out there. Ban blood moon, ban SSG etc you know the usual stuff.
I personally didnt play when Depths was a thing, nor Mox. I know the potential of Seething Song, but its not like Storm is ripping it up, and who doesnt like some Dragon Storm?
Nobody is saying we have to get it right immediately, and while the safe bet is as ktk says the pre-Twin ban meta + ban Eye, nothing is set in stone, so just go in, discuss and test.
If there are cards that you feel are busted (you being anyone!) just articulate why.
Spirits
I suggest you edit the OP, and also make this a finalized decision, or else this thread and the discord will continue arguing about what should or shouldnt be banned, and that discussion will go nowhere.
I like this idea and it's the most reasonable. Besides, having Miracles vs Dredge vs Eldrazi vs Burn vs Infect vs Caw Blade vs 12Post vs Jund vs Maverick vs Affinity vs Storm vs Bloom vs Death and Taxes vs Treasure Delver wouldn't be the most undiverse meta either.
I actually don't even think Twin would be good enough in an Unban Meta
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
a ponder and GSZ unban would be fine too IMO
Honestly I feel like this is how every format should start off. Sure, there are things we can see broken miles away, but I always felt we should actually let the format break itself in the first few months of its introduction so we can statistically collect the data of how it broke, no matter how redundant it seems to be. Then again I've always felt that when it came to matters concerning banning, it should always come from statistics and not "assumption/predictions" as though it was some sort of design instead.
I can sort of understand why WotC does it, because their main objective is sales and a couple months' of chaos does impact that, but ultimately design-based "predictions" just aren't as reliable as good-ol' statistics and if the end-goal is to engineer the "perfect" Modern ("perfect" like you said that's technically not achievable, we can't please everyone), then it should be strictly run in statistical reports.
Old bans kept:
Old bans undone/unbans:
Cards added:
New bans:
And some of the reasoning:
Unbans:
Jace doesn't look like he's really that bad in Modern, especially after how much of a non-event Ancestral Vision turned out. I have a hard time justifying Bloodbraid Elf while stuff like the Expertises are legal, and it doesn't appear to actually be that powerful in Modern, I recall it's ban was more related to Jund, which turned out to be more the fault of things like DShaman, plus there are a bunch of other cards related to the deck it was causing trouble in that are getting banned here, so I doubt it's as much of a threat anymore. While I can see Ponder being an issue, I have trouble justifying keeping Preordain banned, it's powerful, but it seems like it is safe and in color.
Adds: Various adds have different reasons, some of them probably aren't really neccesary for the format, some of them are intended to help with missing spots in the format, some are supposed to help with making up for newly banned things, and some are meant to open up some new strategic options. Counterspell in particular was added because of the need to be able to allow control decks to grow, and enable a real 'turn 4 format' where combo can grow under the policing of control, rather than policing of bans.
Bans:Some cards are just too strong for the decks they turn up in and too flexible, turning up potentially in too many decks across multiple archetypes, and too hard to counter-play for their mana costs for too many decks, like Tarmogoyf. Some are extremely unfriendly to counter-play for their mana costs or effective costs of play in the format, like TS, IoK, Eidolon, Skullcrack, A's Command, and such. Some hate too strongly on basic lands in ways that disrupts format potential, like Boil, Boiling Seas, Choke, and Flashfires. Some slow down the game too much with regular use and complicate interactions with land bases too much, like the fetchlands. Some break fundamental aspects of the game's math and interactions with various card types like pump spells to the point that every new pump spell threatens to put them over the edge like some of the efficient infect creatures I included. Some shut down games too hard for their mana costs (or card types) like BMoon and EBridge. Some overly empower decks that aren't really paying for it, or are rivals for the banned Ponder yet mysteriously get a pass, like Ancient Stirrings and Oath of Nissa. Some shut down fringe strategies too hard like IoK, TS, and Abrupt Decay, shrinking the format too much. Some are too much power for too easy in Modern to pay costs in the right decks, like Cranial Plating, Tasigur, or Become Immense and the other delve cards. Surgical is too close to the banned Gitprobe, less reliable, sure, but too much potential for what is essentially strategic insurance + card advantage with no mana costs. Burnwillows is too good a land in general, and has suspiciously dangerous potential for weird fringe combos turning up in the future. Canopy is too easy to turn into card advantage after using it as a land when you no longer need it, and when one of it's colors is supposed to be bad at card draw. Opal and Simian are too easy of sources for Fast Mana. Snapcaster potentially breaks otherwise fair instant and sorcery spells, and I believe would be too much more dangerous with how many rival stuff got hit by other bans, plus I know some people's concern about him combined with the added to the format counterspell, it's also just a bit too much card advantage-ishness at 2 cmc, both cheaply letting you reccur something from the graveyard quickly, which was thus likely already useful in the game, and putting down a flash body with relatively decent power for blue. Gifts sets up graveyard play too easily, and seems a bit off-color when used that way on top of that. DConfidant is too cheap and reliable for what it does, it's got better drawbacks than goyf, but it still edges into the danger zone, and has a nice benefit that a lot of 'lite' versions that fit into different potential decks have been printed lately to make it a safer ban than it perhaps used to be, but need to be built around more.
TS and IoK and the Moon pair are some of the ones I'm most concerned about banning, I'm hoping that things like Duress can pick up the needed slack for discard, and that getting rid of Moon won't cause Tron to become too much of a problem, because there wasn't cards I could really think of that seemed like they'd effectively help with tron in the right mana cost range and such that weren't also too powerful to add that already exist, but I'm hoping stuff still in the format that is a bit more single-target and the addition of Skyshroud critters and From the Ashes can make up for it.
I'd want to see how this format shakes out before adding or removing things from the new lists. I'd be also willing to be relatively generous in adding things that look safe in big chunks from supplementary products, so long as they aren't on the reserved list and aren't things like un-cards, I only added a relatively small list of them to start off, since it would take too long to make a much bigger list and go through all the relevant cards at once (which is basically anything that I think would be safe and follows some of the above noted rules, like not on the reserved list, although I might hold off on some things extremely unlikely to be reprinted that already have supply problems, like ones using dead/dying mechanics WotC avoids now, like Shroud, Protection, and landwalk).
Moon should never be banned. And Counterspell would render control to the top. Most of the other cards would be too strong. Jace, sure, unban him. But seriously, that list? Would kill every deck there is. Sorry, but no. No.... Just hell no.