Moon should never be banned. And Counterspell would render control to the top. Most of the other cards would be too strong. Jace, sure, unban him. But seriously, that list? Would kill every deck there is. Sorry, but no. No.... Just hell no.
I said in an earlier post people wouldn't like it, but here you're disliking it without much explanation as to why. The only explanation I see see that it would kill every deck there is. I don't see why 'moon should never be banned', nor even what you mean by 'render control to the top' for Counterspell, or even if that would be a bad thing, depending on what you mean by 'top', which, if you merely mean T1, I'd consider it a good thing, but if you mean a completely dominating T0 deck, you'd need some pretty strong arguments as to how counterspell would do that, especially in a format without Snapcaster Mage. If you just said, the last part, after the 'Sorry', I'd not bother responding, since you might not like the idea of such extensive changes, but when you start mentioning individual ones, I feel obligated to determine why for each one. If you have a good argument, I might change the list.
But I strongly disagree with the idea that I shouldn't create a large ban list just because it would kill a lot of decks, so long as the banned cards fit my criteria for banning. Note that you are arguing this would kill every deck there is, but a lot of the point of the bans I included was to expand the potential for _more_ decks to exist than currently, by getting rid of oppressive cards that can cut down on deck diversity. If anything, I'd suspect the format I designed the post you quoted would have _more_ decks in it's T1 and T2 zones, and those decks would cover wider archetypes more evenly. I'd have to do testing to be sure of course, but the results of some budget and some lower tier and casual decks fighting each other gives me relatively high confidence in this.
Note that I'm not trying to retain the _character_ of Modern, which I could understand you being opposed to, not wanting to lose too much of the current metagame. I'm trying to create a _better_ format than Modern, with a more stable and self-correcting metagame with a wider deck diversity and more brewing potential, which fulfills a similar purpose to Modern (being non-rotating to let you use a wide range of older cards, but not including stuff that can't be reprinted so has permanent supply issues caused by stuff like the reserved list, and has a more manageable power level to open it up to players graduating out of their first Standard rotation to ease into, as well as has better color balance than formats like Legacy which rely on stuff like Force of Will a little too much for relative stability).
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Reading that makes me glad Wizards is actually in charge of the ban list and not random players.
I do agree with ktkenshinx's list on page 1, although I would have liked to see Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic off "his" ban preference.
Glimpse of Nature is no way, shape, or form, okay. Elves would be just ridiculous. I say this as someone who's played a bunch of Elves the past few months and played it ever since Urza's Saga when they had Elfball.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Unbans:
Jace doesn't look like he's really that bad in Modern, especially after how much of a non-event Ancestral Vision turned out. I have a hard time justifying Bloodbraid Elf while stuff like the Expertises are legal, and it doesn't appear to actually be that powerful in Modern, I recall it's ban was more related to Jund, which turned out to be more the fault of things like DShaman, plus there are a bunch of other cards related to the deck it was causing trouble in that are getting banned here, so I doubt it's as much of a threat anymore. While I can see Ponder being an issue, I have trouble justifying keeping Preordain banned, it's powerful, but it seems like it is safe and in color.
Adds: Various adds have different reasons, some of them probably aren't really neccesary for the format, some of them are intended to help with missing spots in the format, some are supposed to help with making up for newly banned things, and some are meant to open up some new strategic options. Counterspell in particular was added because of the need to be able to allow control decks to grow, and enable a real 'turn 4 format' where combo can grow under the policing of control, rather than policing of bans.
Bans:Some cards are just too strong for the decks they turn up in and too flexible, turning up potentially in too many decks across multiple archetypes, and too hard to counter-play for their mana costs for too many decks, like Tarmogoyf. Some are extremely unfriendly to counter-play for their mana costs or effective costs of play in the format, like TS, IoK, Eidolon, Skullcrack, A's Command, and such. Some hate too strongly on basic lands in ways that disrupts format potential, like Boil, Boiling Seas, Choke, and Flashfires. Some slow down the game too much with regular use and complicate interactions with land bases too much, like the fetchlands. Some break fundamental aspects of the game's math and interactions with various card types like pump spells to the point that every new pump spell threatens to put them over the edge like some of the efficient infect creatures I included. Some shut down games too hard for their mana costs (or card types) like BMoon and EBridge. Some overly empower decks that aren't really paying for it, or are rivals for the banned Ponder yet mysteriously get a pass, like Ancient Stirrings and Oath of Nissa. Some shut down fringe strategies too hard like IoK, TS, and Abrupt Decay, shrinking the format too much. Some are too much power for too easy in Modern to pay costs in the right decks, like Cranial Plating, Tasigur, or Become Immense and the other delve cards. Surgical is too close to the banned Gitprobe, less reliable, sure, but too much potential for what is essentially strategic insurance + card advantage with no mana costs. Burnwillows is too good a land in general, and has suspiciously dangerous potential for weird fringe combos turning up in the future. Canopy is too easy to turn into card advantage after using it as a land when you no longer need it, and when one of it's colors is supposed to be bad at card draw. Opal and Simian are too easy of sources for Fast Mana. Snapcaster potentially breaks otherwise fair instant and sorcery spells, and I believe would be too much more dangerous with how many rival stuff got hit by other bans, plus I know some people's concern about him combined with the added to the format counterspell, it's also just a bit too much card advantage-ishness at 2 cmc, both cheaply letting you reccur something from the graveyard quickly, which was thus likely already useful in the game, and putting down a flash body with relatively decent power for blue. Gifts sets up graveyard play too easily, and seems a bit off-color when used that way on top of that. DConfidant is too cheap and reliable for what it does, it's got better drawbacks than goyf, but it still edges into the danger zone, and has a nice benefit that a lot of 'lite' versions that fit into different potential decks have been printed lately to make it a safer ban than it perhaps used to be, but need to be built around more.
TS and IoK and the Moon pair are some of the ones I'm most concerned about banning, I'm hoping that things like Duress can pick up the needed slack for discard, and that getting rid of Moon won't cause Tron to become too much of a problem, because there wasn't cards I could really think of that seemed like they'd effectively help with tron in the right mana cost range and such that weren't also too powerful to add that already exist, but I'm hoping stuff still in the format that is a bit more single-target and the addition of Skyshroud critters and From the Ashes can make up for it.
I'd want to see how this format shakes out before adding or removing things from the new lists. I'd be also willing to be relatively generous in adding things that look safe in big chunks from supplementary products, so long as they aren't on the reserved list and aren't things like un-cards, I only added a relatively small list of them to start off, since it would take too long to make a much bigger list and go through all the relevant cards at once (which is basically anything that I think would be safe and follows some of the above noted rules, like not on the reserved list, although I might hold off on some things extremely unlikely to be reprinted that already have supply problems, like ones using dead/dying mechanics WotC avoids now, like Shroud, Protection, and landwalk).
Unbans:
Jace doesn't look like he's really that bad in Modern, especially after how much of a non-event Ancestral Vision turned out. I have a hard time justifying Bloodbraid Elf while stuff like the Expertises are legal, and it doesn't appear to actually be that powerful in Modern, I recall it's ban was more related to Jund, which turned out to be more the fault of things like DShaman, plus there are a bunch of other cards related to the deck it was causing trouble in that are getting banned here, so I doubt it's as much of a threat anymore. While I can see Ponder being an issue, I have trouble justifying keeping Preordain banned, it's powerful, but it seems like it is safe and in color.
Adds: Various adds have different reasons, some of them probably aren't really neccesary for the format, some of them are intended to help with missing spots in the format, some are supposed to help with making up for newly banned things, and some are meant to open up some new strategic options. Counterspell in particular was added because of the need to be able to allow control decks to grow, and enable a real 'turn 4 format' where combo can grow under the policing of control, rather than policing of bans.
Bans:Some cards are just too strong for the decks they turn up in and too flexible, turning up potentially in too many decks across multiple archetypes, and too hard to counter-play for their mana costs for too many decks, like Tarmogoyf. Some are extremely unfriendly to counter-play for their mana costs or effective costs of play in the format, like TS, IoK, Eidolon, Skullcrack, A's Command, and such. Some hate too strongly on basic lands in ways that disrupts format potential, like Boil, Boiling Seas, Choke, and Flashfires. Some slow down the game too much with regular use and complicate interactions with land bases too much, like the fetchlands. Some break fundamental aspects of the game's math and interactions with various card types like pump spells to the point that every new pump spell threatens to put them over the edge like some of the efficient infect creatures I included. Some shut down games too hard for their mana costs (or card types) like BMoon and EBridge. Some overly empower decks that aren't really paying for it, or are rivals for the banned Ponder yet mysteriously get a pass, like Ancient Stirrings and Oath of Nissa. Some shut down fringe strategies too hard like IoK, TS, and Abrupt Decay, shrinking the format too much. Some are too much power for too easy in Modern to pay costs in the right decks, like Cranial Plating, Tasigur, or Become Immense and the other delve cards. Surgical is too close to the banned Gitprobe, less reliable, sure, but too much potential for what is essentially strategic insurance + card advantage with no mana costs. Burnwillows is too good a land in general, and has suspiciously dangerous potential for weird fringe combos turning up in the future. Canopy is too easy to turn into card advantage after using it as a land when you no longer need it, and when one of it's colors is supposed to be bad at card draw. Opal and Simian are too easy of sources for Fast Mana. Snapcaster potentially breaks otherwise fair instant and sorcery spells, and I believe would be too much more dangerous with how many rival stuff got hit by other bans, plus I know some people's concern about him combined with the added to the format counterspell, it's also just a bit too much card advantage-ishness at 2 cmc, both cheaply letting you reccur something from the graveyard quickly, which was thus likely already useful in the game, and putting down a flash body with relatively decent power for blue. Gifts sets up graveyard play too easily, and seems a bit off-color when used that way on top of that. DConfidant is too cheap and reliable for what it does, it's got better drawbacks than goyf, but it still edges into the danger zone, and has a nice benefit that a lot of 'lite' versions that fit into different potential decks have been printed lately to make it a safer ban than it perhaps used to be, but need to be built around more.
TS and IoK and the Moon pair are some of the ones I'm most concerned about banning, I'm hoping that things like Duress can pick up the needed slack for discard, and that getting rid of Moon won't cause Tron to become too much of a problem, because there wasn't cards I could really think of that seemed like they'd effectively help with tron in the right mana cost range and such that weren't also too powerful to add that already exist, but I'm hoping stuff still in the format that is a bit more single-target and the addition of Skyshroud critters and From the Ashes can make up for it.
I'd want to see how this format shakes out before adding or removing things from the new lists. I'd be also willing to be relatively generous in adding things that look safe in big chunks from supplementary products, so long as they aren't on the reserved list and aren't things like un-cards, I only added a relatively small list of them to start off, since it would take too long to make a much bigger list and go through all the relevant cards at once (which is basically anything that I think would be safe and follows some of the above noted rules, like not on the reserved list, although I might hold off on some things extremely unlikely to be reprinted that already have supply problems, like ones using dead/dying mechanics WotC avoids now, like Shroud, Protection, and landwalk).
Wow you think that the expertise cycle is on par with BBE? One is literally a Haste Creature that gives you Card Advantage and Cheats on mana, the others only have 1/3rd of that equation. Its laughable that you have Snapcaster recommended for banning while you want BBE in the format.
Your additions seem tailor made to put UBx control as the tier 0 best deck if you go along with the Bans you recommend. I think that injecting most of those cards into the format would fine but with the bans you are recommending it would be intensely hostel to any creature based aggro or mid-range strategy.
TBH most of your bans expose your bias against very specific decks and your suggestions for additions with those bans would make for a terrible format.
I think it would be best to just work with the ban list. We know that WoTC will tinker with the B&R list, we don't know however if they'll over go back on their stance of cards only flowing into Modern through Standard
Adding a whole bunch of illegal cards to the mix will make things more difficult, especially for a project that may not even take off the ground.
We've also established what we consider our official "goal:" The smallest possible banlist, while also maintaining a diverse, healthy, fun metagame.
I suggest you edit the OP, and also make this a finalized decision, or else this thread and the discord will continue arguing about what should or shouldnt be banned, and that discussion will go nowhere.
I added it to the OP...people are still arguing. I want to make this clear to everyone: The list at the bottom of the OP is our starting point. I recommend you all join the Discord to keep up with this project, and find matches if you'd like to participate. You can keep talking about which cards to ban/unban, but the list won't be touched for another month or so.
And to everyone out there saying to add cards to the pool: There's no precedent for this. We're trying to use the banlist to affect the metagame, not completely change what Modern is as a format. As much as I'd like to see counterspell, it's not a very realistic goal.
Unbans:
Jace doesn't look like he's really that bad in Modern, especially after how much of a non-event Ancestral Vision turned out. I have a hard time justifying Bloodbraid Elf while stuff like the Expertises are legal, and it doesn't appear to actually be that powerful in Modern, I recall it's ban was more related to Jund, which turned out to be more the fault of things like DShaman, plus there are a bunch of other cards related to the deck it was causing trouble in that are getting banned here, so I doubt it's as much of a threat anymore. While I can see Ponder being an issue, I have trouble justifying keeping Preordain banned, it's powerful, but it seems like it is safe and in color.
Adds: Various adds have different reasons, some of them probably aren't really neccesary for the format, some of them are intended to help with missing spots in the format, some are supposed to help with making up for newly banned things, and some are meant to open up some new strategic options. Counterspell in particular was added because of the need to be able to allow control decks to grow, and enable a real 'turn 4 format' where combo can grow under the policing of control, rather than policing of bans.
Bans:Some cards are just too strong for the decks they turn up in and too flexible, turning up potentially in too many decks across multiple archetypes, and too hard to counter-play for their mana costs for too many decks, like Tarmogoyf. Some are extremely unfriendly to counter-play for their mana costs or effective costs of play in the format, like TS, IoK, Eidolon, Skullcrack, A's Command, and such. Some hate too strongly on basic lands in ways that disrupts format potential, like Boil, Boiling Seas, Choke, and Flashfires. Some slow down the game too much with regular use and complicate interactions with land bases too much, like the fetchlands. Some break fundamental aspects of the game's math and interactions with various card types like pump spells to the point that every new pump spell threatens to put them over the edge like some of the efficient infect creatures I included. Some shut down games too hard for their mana costs (or card types) like BMoon and EBridge. Some overly empower decks that aren't really paying for it, or are rivals for the banned Ponder yet mysteriously get a pass, like Ancient Stirrings and Oath of Nissa. Some shut down fringe strategies too hard like IoK, TS, and Abrupt Decay, shrinking the format too much. Some are too much power for too easy in Modern to pay costs in the right decks, like Cranial Plating, Tasigur, or Become Immense and the other delve cards. Surgical is too close to the banned Gitprobe, less reliable, sure, but too much potential for what is essentially strategic insurance + card advantage with no mana costs. Burnwillows is too good a land in general, and has suspiciously dangerous potential for weird fringe combos turning up in the future. Canopy is too easy to turn into card advantage after using it as a land when you no longer need it, and when one of it's colors is supposed to be bad at card draw. Opal and Simian are too easy of sources for Fast Mana. Snapcaster potentially breaks otherwise fair instant and sorcery spells, and I believe would be too much more dangerous with how many rival stuff got hit by other bans, plus I know some people's concern about him combined with the added to the format counterspell, it's also just a bit too much card advantage-ishness at 2 cmc, both cheaply letting you reccur something from the graveyard quickly, which was thus likely already useful in the game, and putting down a flash body with relatively decent power for blue. Gifts sets up graveyard play too easily, and seems a bit off-color when used that way on top of that. DConfidant is too cheap and reliable for what it does, it's got better drawbacks than goyf, but it still edges into the danger zone, and has a nice benefit that a lot of 'lite' versions that fit into different potential decks have been printed lately to make it a safer ban than it perhaps used to be, but need to be built around more.
TS and IoK and the Moon pair are some of the ones I'm most concerned about banning, I'm hoping that things like Duress can pick up the needed slack for discard, and that getting rid of Moon won't cause Tron to become too much of a problem, because there wasn't cards I could really think of that seemed like they'd effectively help with tron in the right mana cost range and such that weren't also too powerful to add that already exist, but I'm hoping stuff still in the format that is a bit more single-target and the addition of Skyshroud critters and From the Ashes can make up for it.
I'd want to see how this format shakes out before adding or removing things from the new lists. I'd be also willing to be relatively generous in adding things that look safe in big chunks from supplementary products, so long as they aren't on the reserved list and aren't things like un-cards, I only added a relatively small list of them to start off, since it would take too long to make a much bigger list and go through all the relevant cards at once (which is basically anything that I think would be safe and follows some of the above noted rules, like not on the reserved list, although I might hold off on some things extremely unlikely to be reprinted that already have supply problems, like ones using dead/dying mechanics WotC avoids now, like Shroud, Protection, and landwalk).
Unbans:
Jace doesn't look like he's really that bad in Modern, especially after how much of a non-event Ancestral Vision turned out. I have a hard time justifying Bloodbraid Elf while stuff like the Expertises are legal, and it doesn't appear to actually be that powerful in Modern, I recall it's ban was more related to Jund, which turned out to be more the fault of things like DShaman, plus there are a bunch of other cards related to the deck it was causing trouble in that are getting banned here, so I doubt it's as much of a threat anymore. While I can see Ponder being an issue, I have trouble justifying keeping Preordain banned, it's powerful, but it seems like it is safe and in color.
Adds: Various adds have different reasons, some of them probably aren't really neccesary for the format, some of them are intended to help with missing spots in the format, some are supposed to help with making up for newly banned things, and some are meant to open up some new strategic options. Counterspell in particular was added because of the need to be able to allow control decks to grow, and enable a real 'turn 4 format' where combo can grow under the policing of control, rather than policing of bans.
Bans:Some cards are just too strong for the decks they turn up in and too flexible, turning up potentially in too many decks across multiple archetypes, and too hard to counter-play for their mana costs for too many decks, like Tarmogoyf. Some are extremely unfriendly to counter-play for their mana costs or effective costs of play in the format, like TS, IoK, Eidolon, Skullcrack, A's Command, and such. Some hate too strongly on basic lands in ways that disrupts format potential, like Boil, Boiling Seas, Choke, and Flashfires. Some slow down the game too much with regular use and complicate interactions with land bases too much, like the fetchlands. Some break fundamental aspects of the game's math and interactions with various card types like pump spells to the point that every new pump spell threatens to put them over the edge like some of the efficient infect creatures I included. Some shut down games too hard for their mana costs (or card types) like BMoon and EBridge. Some overly empower decks that aren't really paying for it, or are rivals for the banned Ponder yet mysteriously get a pass, like Ancient Stirrings and Oath of Nissa. Some shut down fringe strategies too hard like IoK, TS, and Abrupt Decay, shrinking the format too much. Some are too much power for too easy in Modern to pay costs in the right decks, like Cranial Plating, Tasigur, or Become Immense and the other delve cards. Surgical is too close to the banned Gitprobe, less reliable, sure, but too much potential for what is essentially strategic insurance + card advantage with no mana costs. Burnwillows is too good a land in general, and has suspiciously dangerous potential for weird fringe combos turning up in the future. Canopy is too easy to turn into card advantage after using it as a land when you no longer need it, and when one of it's colors is supposed to be bad at card draw. Opal and Simian are too easy of sources for Fast Mana. Snapcaster potentially breaks otherwise fair instant and sorcery spells, and I believe would be too much more dangerous with how many rival stuff got hit by other bans, plus I know some people's concern about him combined with the added to the format counterspell, it's also just a bit too much card advantage-ishness at 2 cmc, both cheaply letting you reccur something from the graveyard quickly, which was thus likely already useful in the game, and putting down a flash body with relatively decent power for blue. Gifts sets up graveyard play too easily, and seems a bit off-color when used that way on top of that. DConfidant is too cheap and reliable for what it does, it's got better drawbacks than goyf, but it still edges into the danger zone, and has a nice benefit that a lot of 'lite' versions that fit into different potential decks have been printed lately to make it a safer ban than it perhaps used to be, but need to be built around more.
TS and IoK and the Moon pair are some of the ones I'm most concerned about banning, I'm hoping that things like Duress can pick up the needed slack for discard, and that getting rid of Moon won't cause Tron to become too much of a problem, because there wasn't cards I could really think of that seemed like they'd effectively help with tron in the right mana cost range and such that weren't also too powerful to add that already exist, but I'm hoping stuff still in the format that is a bit more single-target and the addition of Skyshroud critters and From the Ashes can make up for it.
I'd want to see how this format shakes out before adding or removing things from the new lists. I'd be also willing to be relatively generous in adding things that look safe in big chunks from supplementary products, so long as they aren't on the reserved list and aren't things like un-cards, I only added a relatively small list of them to start off, since it would take too long to make a much bigger list and go through all the relevant cards at once (which is basically anything that I think would be safe and follows some of the above noted rules, like not on the reserved list, although I might hold off on some things extremely unlikely to be reprinted that already have supply problems, like ones using dead/dying mechanics WotC avoids now, like Shroud, Protection, and landwalk).
I spotted the person whom hates all the top tier decks. /s
Joking aside, that ban list is absolutely asinine. Taking out the best discard cards in the format, some of the efficient creatures and the fetches of all things doesn't make the format better, it makes it simpler and lose a lot of it's mechanical complexity. Simplifying a format does not help it, in fact, it actually hurts it. People come to modern not just because they get to play with their older cards, but because they want to play a much more mechanically deeper format. It's like Melee vs Smash 4: sure, one is more forgiving than the other, but the other one has a layer of technical complexity that some people enjoy. That ban list you provided misses the entire point of that second point: if you want to play a simpler game of magic, play a simpler game of magic.
People need to see that when you're working on a ban list, you have to see what is good for the FORMAT. Not your own personal biases, but what is healthy for the format.
Thumbs up for starting with a more reasonable banlist, the original was... suboptimal to say the least.
I agree that Eldrazi Winter was a disaster, but would Twin be able to fight against the different aliens decks that existed during it? (just legit curious)
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Vorthos-y Johnny. All will be One
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
Go for it. We need data. I tried mirroring the Legacy list. Usually wins turn 4. Turn 3 sometimes. And the rest of the time it dies to itself. But hey, maybe this isn't the best way to do it.
Make your version of the deck, and give it a shot. If the data's there, it'll eat the banhammer.
Lantern didn't lose to Eldrazi! Maindeck Ensnaring Bridge for the win!
I think ktkenshinx's idea of keeping the pre-Twin-ban list, with the addition of Eye of Ugin (of course), is the best idea. No need to shake things up by having ban list a hundred cards long, gotta keep it simple.
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CRUGGCCCCCCCGBGBGBCCCCCCCBBUWC MODERN – LANTERN(aka Fateseal or Barbershop) Primer–Subreddit–Facebook–Decklist–Gameplay Thnkr's Content:Gameplay–Datasheet Each eye sees a different possibility for tomorrow. CWUBBCCCCCCCBGBGBGCCCCCCCGGURC
Just wanted to update all of you that most of these worries were heard and incorporated into the newer banlist and unbanning round. Check the first post for details:
Why anyone would want to play in a format where Sensei's Divining Top is legal is beyond me. The rest of your unbannings I could probably get behind. Well maybe not Glimpse of Nature..... elves doesn't need more support.
Basically what you've done with your unbannings here is turn modern into a combo format. You unban cards like Dig Through Time but you keep Bloodbraid Elf banned? Your personal preferences are considered far too much, I think.
There's a lot that I don't agree with about this, but I'll just stick to one question about the thing that is most puzzling to me. Why unban Ponder instead of Preordain?
I feel much more confident in this list. However I feel that Chrome AND Seething Song are too much for Storm. Giving them Pre-ordain and Probe are minor tools that I can get behind, but they don't need two fast mana cards. I would support unbanning both Song/Mox if we in turn banned Simian Spirit Guide.
I like most of the unbans that ktkenshinx has listed but I'm not sure that chrome mox is a good idea. I'm worried that fast mana would become too consistent and difficult to interact with. Modern is currently without much turn 0 interaction (e.g., no force of will) and I don't know how out of hand something like Elves, Grishoalbrand, or any other combo deck could get with the introduction of another quick free mana source.
Otherwise things are looking good, I'm fearful of Jace and Stoneforge but I'm not yet convinced that they'll be oppressive, they appear to be contenders for a ban imho. I would also suggest taking a look at banning cards to make Twin and Pod decks less intense like, banning Deceiver Exarch for example? Those are just my two cents. I like this idea but I think a dedicated and unbiased team/council of elected members is essential to make a player-run banlist work.
I feel much more confident in this list. However I feel that Chrome AND Seething Song are too much for Storm. Giving them Pre-ordain and Probe are minor tools that I can get behind, but they don't need two fast mana cards. I would support unbanning both Song/Mox if we in turn banned Simian Spirit Guide.
Just my 2 cents
I am also not a fan of Song because of all the Storm tools, but if it's broken we can just ban it. I think the rationale is to get data and then ban. First up is Song and Storm. After that it would probably be Bloom, or maybe Shoal or Glimpse. That way we can reevaluate all the cards one at a time and see what's really busted.
I like most of the unbans that ktkenshinx has listed but I'm not sure that chrome mox is a good idea. I'm worried that fast mana would become too consistent and difficult to interact with. Modern is currently without much turn 0 interaction (e.g., no force of will) and I don't know how out of hand something like Elves, Grishoalbrand, or any other combo deck could get with the introduction of another quick free mana source.
Otherwise things are looking good, I'm fearful of Jace and Stoneforge but I'm not yet convinced that they'll be oppressive, they appear to be contenders for a ban imho. I would also suggest taking a look at banning cards to make Twin and Pod decks less intense like, banning Deceiver Exarch for example? Those are just my two cents. I like this idea but I think a dedicated and unbiased team/council of elected members is essential to make a player-run banlist work.
Mox could be iffy but we have no data on the card at all from any point in time in Modern. I'm okay giving it a shot and banning if it's a problem.
A player council, like EDH, would be critical. Anyone have any experience with the EDH council and how it works/is selected?
This is my initial take to fix Modern's problems without speculating potential prints. This is something tomorrow could be done.
Of course this is my view of the format so it is subjective but by nature. My intention is to make the format appealing to everyone.
Here are the changes i would make to the banlist, if it makes any sense.
My reasoning here is try to make the format a little slower. You might say that Summer Bloom does the opposite, but with Twin in the field i'm not afraid of Amulet Bloom as much. Also, i'm counting on Infect keeping Combo in check despite no Probe. I want Combo players to have a home here. There's an (*) in Summer Bloom because Seething Song was a card i had on the initial list of unbans. The problem is that i don't like a spell-based combo winning consistently on Turn 3 or earlier. I might be wrong, but it taxes Ramp too much to have 2 hard-to-interact-with T3 combos AND Splinter Twin. Again, i want everyone to have a home in Modern.
I'm taking out the most obscene fast mana in the format. Without Mox Opal i think Artifact Lands can coexist in Affinity making it as competitive as it is right now. It can also enable an artifact-based midrange/control strategy. Eggs suffers from no Opal but likes artifact lands.
Simian Spirit Guide goes without too much explanation. It doens't appear in Top tiers but it is too busted by nature. I don't want the format to be "T2 Moon i'm out". That Casino-like type of gameplay is going a little too far into variance.
Exarch goes into the banlist as a last minute addition. I want Twin to work their mana base and make them go into a Shard. As you can see, Ancestral Vision and Blood Moon remain legal, so UR Twin is a clear candidate or Tier 0 if they can go that route. Too many angles covered by playing 2 colors and a transformational sideboard. I'm not saying they won't play Moon but at least they will have to work hard to get there.
Bloodbraid Elf was also on the initial list for unbans. The problem i keep finding with this card is that it gives a Wheel of fortune nature to a Top tier(Jund) that makes for unhealthy gameplay. Sure, you can cast BBE and hit Lightning Bolt. That might be fine. Liliana though, is a nightmare for too many decks. With Fatal Push in the format, i'm inclined to believe Jund and Abzan can keep Twin in check along other U/x/x strategies. IF BG/x falls too out of favor, then SFM and BBE can come up as potential unbans.
Since when did this thread become the place to pitch your own ideas about the banlist? Don't we already have a thread for that?
I don't know when that happened, but the other thread is so noisy than mods can't keep them under control. It's the same 4 users posting over and over.
I want to fix the format, not hold the truth of everything in the universe. Unless something changes there, expect to see people post on this thread more often.
Since when did this thread become the place to pitch your own ideas about the banlist? Don't we already have a thread for that?
Some of these posts are clearly outside of the realm of Reformed Modern, but others are just suggestions. This thread is pretty open so there isn't a need to crack down on this yet; it's just not an issue. But we should stay focused on OP's thread parameters.
I don't know when that happened, but the other thread is so noisy than mods can't keep them under control. It's the same 4 users posting over and over.
Remember that being vocal and posting frequently isn't against the rules. The same is true of posts that may be either factually inaccurate or express an opinion you disagree with. That said, if you think a user is actually violating thread, subforum, or forum rules, please report that post and we'll look into it.
I feel much more confident in this list. However I feel that Chrome AND Seething Song are too much for Storm. Giving them Pre-ordain and Probe are minor tools that I can get behind, but they don't need two fast mana cards. I would support unbanning both Song/Mox if we in turn banned Simian Spirit Guide.
Just my 2 cents
I am also not a fan of Song because of all the Storm tools, but if it's broken we can just ban it. I think the rationale is to get data and then ban. First up is Song and Storm. After that it would probably be Bloom, or maybe Shoal or Glimpse. That way we can reevaluate all the cards one at a time and see what's really busted.
I like most of the unbans that ktkenshinx has listed but I'm not sure that chrome mox is a good idea. I'm worried that fast mana would become too consistent and difficult to interact with. Modern is currently without much turn 0 interaction (e.g., no force of will) and I don't know how out of hand something like Elves, Grishoalbrand, or any other combo deck could get with the introduction of another quick free mana source.
Otherwise things are looking good, I'm fearful of Jace and Stoneforge but I'm not yet convinced that they'll be oppressive, they appear to be contenders for a ban imho. I would also suggest taking a look at banning cards to make Twin and Pod decks less intense like, banning Deceiver Exarch for example? Those are just my two cents. I like this idea but I think a dedicated and unbiased team/council of elected members is essential to make a player-run banlist work.
Mox could be iffy but we have no data on the card at all from any point in time in Modern. I'm okay giving it a shot and banning if it's a problem.
A player council, like EDH, would be critical. Anyone have any experience with the EDH council and how it works/is selected?
The rationale is absolutely to get data first, and then ban if needed. In fact, in my opinion, we should give cards multiple shots. Song too broken in this meta? Fine, we can ban it. But I believe it should get another shot later on, in case the format is capable of creating decks that are more hostile towards it.
I'm all for T2 marit lage'ing people in modern lol. It's not too hard to do in legacy as it is and I feel like there are waaaayyyyy less effective interactions in modern (no force, daze, stifle, wasteland, karakas, crop rotation, etc.).
I think that the banning of Pod, BBE, and Twin were some of the best bans for the format. Opened up the variety of decks that can be played in the format by removing the various decks that stifled the validity of large swaths of the current Tier 2 playable decks. Those bans did more for the format reaching the goals WotC has put forward towards having as large a possible pool of viable decks.
What the format really needs are things that don't exist. Better ways to deal with Planeswalkers, better ways to interact with Eldrazi like 10 drop Ulamog, tch or World Breaker etc... but they also need to be highly accessible to a variety of strategies and color combinations. The problem with Fatal Push was that it just improved the best mid-range decks in the format that kind of already had the tools to deal with the problems that Push deals with. Black isn't a color that needs much help as that color literally has a clear winner and or contender for the most powerful card available at 1,2,3 c.c.
Maybe WotC should consider another "time sprial" set to A- Give break to the standard story line a nice vacation from the same old same old. And also allow them to inject some unique spells and affects into the game and the modern card pool while affording them the ability to say that it is just a once in awhile divergence from the Magic Standard players love so much.
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I said in an earlier post people wouldn't like it, but here you're disliking it without much explanation as to why. The only explanation I see see that it would kill every deck there is. I don't see why 'moon should never be banned', nor even what you mean by 'render control to the top' for Counterspell, or even if that would be a bad thing, depending on what you mean by 'top', which, if you merely mean T1, I'd consider it a good thing, but if you mean a completely dominating T0 deck, you'd need some pretty strong arguments as to how counterspell would do that, especially in a format without Snapcaster Mage. If you just said, the last part, after the 'Sorry', I'd not bother responding, since you might not like the idea of such extensive changes, but when you start mentioning individual ones, I feel obligated to determine why for each one. If you have a good argument, I might change the list.
But I strongly disagree with the idea that I shouldn't create a large ban list just because it would kill a lot of decks, so long as the banned cards fit my criteria for banning. Note that you are arguing this would kill every deck there is, but a lot of the point of the bans I included was to expand the potential for _more_ decks to exist than currently, by getting rid of oppressive cards that can cut down on deck diversity. If anything, I'd suspect the format I designed the post you quoted would have _more_ decks in it's T1 and T2 zones, and those decks would cover wider archetypes more evenly. I'd have to do testing to be sure of course, but the results of some budget and some lower tier and casual decks fighting each other gives me relatively high confidence in this.
Note that I'm not trying to retain the _character_ of Modern, which I could understand you being opposed to, not wanting to lose too much of the current metagame. I'm trying to create a _better_ format than Modern, with a more stable and self-correcting metagame with a wider deck diversity and more brewing potential, which fulfills a similar purpose to Modern (being non-rotating to let you use a wide range of older cards, but not including stuff that can't be reprinted so has permanent supply issues caused by stuff like the reserved list, and has a more manageable power level to open it up to players graduating out of their first Standard rotation to ease into, as well as has better color balance than formats like Legacy which rely on stuff like Force of Will a little too much for relative stability).
I do agree with ktkenshinx's list on page 1, although I would have liked to see Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic off "his" ban preference.
Glimpse of Nature is no way, shape, or form, okay. Elves would be just ridiculous. I say this as someone who's played a bunch of Elves the past few months and played it ever since Urza's Saga when they had Elfball.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Wow you think that the expertise cycle is on par with BBE? One is literally a Haste Creature that gives you Card Advantage and Cheats on mana, the others only have 1/3rd of that equation. Its laughable that you have Snapcaster recommended for banning while you want BBE in the format.
Your additions seem tailor made to put UBx control as the tier 0 best deck if you go along with the Bans you recommend. I think that injecting most of those cards into the format would fine but with the bans you are recommending it would be intensely hostel to any creature based aggro or mid-range strategy.
TBH most of your bans expose your bias against very specific decks and your suggestions for additions with those bans would make for a terrible format.
Adding a whole bunch of illegal cards to the mix will make things more difficult, especially for a project that may not even take off the ground.
I added it to the OP...people are still arguing. I want to make this clear to everyone: The list at the bottom of the OP is our starting point. I recommend you all join the Discord to keep up with this project, and find matches if you'd like to participate. You can keep talking about which cards to ban/unban, but the list won't be touched for another month or so.
And to everyone out there saying to add cards to the pool: There's no precedent for this. We're trying to use the banlist to affect the metagame, not completely change what Modern is as a format. As much as I'd like to see counterspell, it's not a very realistic goal.
I spotted the person whom hates all the top tier decks. /s
Joking aside, that ban list is absolutely asinine. Taking out the best discard cards in the format, some of the efficient creatures and the fetches of all things doesn't make the format better, it makes it simpler and lose a lot of it's mechanical complexity. Simplifying a format does not help it, in fact, it actually hurts it. People come to modern not just because they get to play with their older cards, but because they want to play a much more mechanically deeper format. It's like Melee vs Smash 4: sure, one is more forgiving than the other, but the other one has a layer of technical complexity that some people enjoy. That ban list you provided misses the entire point of that second point: if you want to play a simpler game of magic, play a simpler game of magic.
People need to see that when you're working on a ban list, you have to see what is good for the FORMAT. Not your own personal biases, but what is healthy for the format.
RWGisela, Blade of Explosions
I agree that Eldrazi Winter was a disaster, but would Twin be able to fight against the different aliens decks that existed during it? (just legit curious)
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
Done. Let's get the data and make the argument that it should be banned.
Spirits
Go for it. We need data. I tried mirroring the Legacy list. Usually wins turn 4. Turn 3 sometimes. And the rest of the time it dies to itself. But hey, maybe this isn't the best way to do it.
Make your version of the deck, and give it a shot. If the data's there, it'll eat the banhammer.
I think ktkenshinx's idea of keeping the pre-Twin-ban list, with the addition of Eye of Ugin (of course), is the best idea. No need to shake things up by having ban list a hundred cards long, gotta keep it simple.
MODERN – LANTERN (aka Fateseal or Barbershop)
Primer – Subreddit – Facebook – Decklist – Gameplay
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CWUBBCCCCCCCBGBGBGCCCCCCCGGURC
To summarize those changes, here are the notable unbanned cards from the current Modern banlist:
I feel much more confident in this list. However I feel that Chrome AND Seething Song are too much for Storm. Giving them Pre-ordain and Probe are minor tools that I can get behind, but they don't need two fast mana cards. I would support unbanning both Song/Mox if we in turn banned Simian Spirit Guide.
Just my 2 cents
Draft My Cube!
Otherwise things are looking good, I'm fearful of Jace and Stoneforge but I'm not yet convinced that they'll be oppressive, they appear to be contenders for a ban imho. I would also suggest taking a look at banning cards to make Twin and Pod decks less intense like, banning Deceiver Exarch for example? Those are just my two cents. I like this idea but I think a dedicated and unbiased team/council of elected members is essential to make a player-run banlist work.
I am also not a fan of Song because of all the Storm tools, but if it's broken we can just ban it. I think the rationale is to get data and then ban. First up is Song and Storm. After that it would probably be Bloom, or maybe Shoal or Glimpse. That way we can reevaluate all the cards one at a time and see what's really busted.
Mox could be iffy but we have no data on the card at all from any point in time in Modern. I'm okay giving it a shot and banning if it's a problem.
A player council, like EDH, would be critical. Anyone have any experience with the EDH council and how it works/is selected?
Of course this is my view of the format so it is subjective but by nature. My intention is to make the format appealing to everyone.
Here are the changes i would make to the banlist, if it makes any sense.
Unbans: -Splinter Twin
-Artifact Lands
-Summer Bloom*
Bans:-Mox Opal
-Simian Spirit Guide
-Deceiver Exarch
My reasoning here is try to make the format a little slower. You might say that Summer Bloom does the opposite, but with Twin in the field i'm not afraid of Amulet Bloom as much. Also, i'm counting on Infect keeping Combo in check despite no Probe. I want Combo players to have a home here. There's an (*) in Summer Bloom because Seething Song was a card i had on the initial list of unbans. The problem is that i don't like a spell-based combo winning consistently on Turn 3 or earlier. I might be wrong, but it taxes Ramp too much to have 2 hard-to-interact-with T3 combos AND Splinter Twin. Again, i want everyone to have a home in Modern.
I'm taking out the most obscene fast mana in the format. Without Mox Opal i think Artifact Lands can coexist in Affinity making it as competitive as it is right now. It can also enable an artifact-based midrange/control strategy. Eggs suffers from no Opal but likes artifact lands.
Simian Spirit Guide goes without too much explanation. It doens't appear in Top tiers but it is too busted by nature. I don't want the format to be "T2 Moon i'm out". That Casino-like type of gameplay is going a little too far into variance.
Exarch goes into the banlist as a last minute addition. I want Twin to work their mana base and make them go into a Shard. As you can see, Ancestral Vision and Blood Moon remain legal, so UR Twin is a clear candidate or Tier 0 if they can go that route. Too many angles covered by playing 2 colors and a transformational sideboard. I'm not saying they won't play Moon but at least they will have to work hard to get there.
Bloodbraid Elf was also on the initial list for unbans. The problem i keep finding with this card is that it gives a Wheel of fortune nature to a Top tier(Jund) that makes for unhealthy gameplay. Sure, you can cast BBE and hit Lightning Bolt. That might be fine. Liliana though, is a nightmare for too many decks. With Fatal Push in the format, i'm inclined to believe Jund and Abzan can keep Twin in check along other U/x/x strategies. IF BG/x falls too out of favor, then SFM and BBE can come up as potential unbans.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
I don't know when that happened, but the other thread is so noisy than mods can't keep them under control. It's the same 4 users posting over and over.
I want to fix the format, not hold the truth of everything in the universe. Unless something changes there, expect to see people post on this thread more often.
Some of these posts are clearly outside of the realm of Reformed Modern, but others are just suggestions. This thread is pretty open so there isn't a need to crack down on this yet; it's just not an issue. But we should stay focused on OP's thread parameters.
Remember that being vocal and posting frequently isn't against the rules. The same is true of posts that may be either factually inaccurate or express an opinion you disagree with. That said, if you think a user is actually violating thread, subforum, or forum rules, please report that post and we'll look into it.
The rationale is absolutely to get data first, and then ban if needed. In fact, in my opinion, we should give cards multiple shots. Song too broken in this meta? Fine, we can ban it. But I believe it should get another shot later on, in case the format is capable of creating decks that are more hostile towards it.
Ludafish @ Discord / PCOBRI @ Reddit / Ludafish @ Xmage
Spending most of my free time testing for Indy this week and next but happy to test, tweak and cast Pod non-stop after that.
What the format really needs are things that don't exist. Better ways to deal with Planeswalkers, better ways to interact with Eldrazi like 10 drop Ulamog, tch or World Breaker etc... but they also need to be highly accessible to a variety of strategies and color combinations. The problem with Fatal Push was that it just improved the best mid-range decks in the format that kind of already had the tools to deal with the problems that Push deals with. Black isn't a color that needs much help as that color literally has a clear winner and or contender for the most powerful card available at 1,2,3 c.c.
Maybe WotC should consider another "time sprial" set to A- Give break to the standard story line a nice vacation from the same old same old. And also allow them to inject some unique spells and affects into the game and the modern card pool while affording them the ability to say that it is just a once in awhile divergence from the Magic Standard players love so much.