I'm must not super concerned about the alleged homogenizing effects of JTMS. Lots of blue decks will run him, sure, but those decks will still remain distinct. Grixis, Jeskai, and UW have different angles of attack and JTMS complements all those strategies, hopefully making them just a little better. I doubt we see a "best" Ux control deck emerge with JTMS, as those decks tend to thrive in slightly different metagames with slightly different configurations. He's just a pretty narrow addition to a few decks with many decks unable to run him at all.
The BBE homogenization is a more real fear because that card goes solidly into Jund with a few splash improvements for Temur, Zoo, Shamans, and other untiered fun stuff. This historically means Jund will benefit the most; see stuff like KCommand going into lots of decks but largely benefiting the best decks at the time of its arrival. That said, I don't think BBE is itself very powerful in all metagames, so we should still see comparative advantages to Mardu vs. Abzan vs. Jund and others. I'll also say that Jund is just pretty bad right now so it being better isn't a bad thing. I'm all for more policing decks in Modern as long as it isn't a midrange Standard slugfest or a DRS 2.0.
Now, if the poll had the following:
1) A random selection of 'expert' modern magic players ('expert' defined by a rigid construct such as an arbitrary amount of hours playing the format or accrued ranks in tournament play).
2) The options in the poll were randomized, instead of displayed alphabetically, such that the options wouldn't produce a 'primacy' effect. Since it was displayed alphabetically, Bloodbraid Elf was higher on the list and seen earlier. Thus, more people were likely to see her. 'I don't want any cards banned now' was at the bottom, thus it was less likely for people to see it before choosing an earlier option.
3) A comparator poll to function as a control, in similar design as above, but which could be something like a random selection of 'non-expert' modern magic players.
4) Run a formal test with a defined threshold to determine if the polls were different from one another.
*You'd have a 'better' source of evidence- the randomized control trial. The only thing that is 'better' than a RCT is a meta-analysis, which compares the results from multitudes of polls, which were conducted in the same manner, before drawing a conclusion.
Until then, as inferior as they might be, I'll take my expert opinions.
Weird theory, but it seems that Stoneforge Mystic sees more Legacy play than both Jace and Bloodbraid Elf combined. Is this a possible method of them choosing which card to unban?
That's interesting that SFM is seeing more legacy play again and would be a great reason to justify Jace over SFM
I'm going to suggest that the ability to even jam 4 of these in modern is extremely low compared with 4 SFM. Basically I think that the cmc is prohibitive and therefore these cards are just lower risk in the low cost creature dominated modern format.
The JTMS unban was silly but I wouldn't worry too much. Golgari Grave-Troll set a precedent that, if an unban proves to be a mistake, they will just quickly ban it again.
I keep wondering why Stoneforge Mystic didn't come off the bench. T3 Wurmcoil Engine is a normal play for Tron. T3 Batterskull is about the best SFM can do, not close to the T3 Wurmcoil imo. It's no human, so which decks would it even fit in? Why is it more deserving of a ban as JTMS?
From my perspective its just a boogy man effect. Personally I dont thing STM or JTMS will do a whole lot and if im right about JTMS perhaps STM is soon to follow. As to why they chose JTMS its probably a consistency thing. Id imagine wizards is way more worried about a 2 drop tutor and cheater than a 4 drop walker that is mostly going to cast brainstorm. Keep in mind that a ton of the cards on the modern banned list are there for consistency/ card advantage reason. Of the original modern ban list AV was probably the safest and turns out the world didnt falldown. JTMS is just second.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
SonofaBith - Wizards was so excited about making the packaging for Modern Masters 2 recyclable, they decided to make most of the rares and all but 1 of the UC's recycle-bin ready too. Convenient!
I am certain Splinter Twin has a tomb in its name, because "As a four-mana card that doesn't necessarily win the game on the spot, Bloodbraid Elf /Jace, The Mind Sculptor{...}"
They literally just said Twin has a tomb in it's name. It's over. We should all accept it, unless if you are dreaming, which you are free to do so.
Ya I have been pushing for a twin unban but after reading the announcement yesterday anyone would have to acknowledge that WOTC is saying that twin is still unhealthy. I may talk more about twin in the future, but that defiantly has to be on hold a while. It just doesn't look realistic or possible in the near future for a twin unban, and that is hard for me to say.
The JTMS unban was silly but I wouldn't worry too much. Golgari Grave-Troll set a precedent that, if an unban proves to be a mistake, they will just quickly ban it again.
My problem with the unbans is that Modern has a problem of often getting too fast / powerful / reliable when new cards get introduced, hence the reason the ban list even exists. Unbanning a card is a highly unusual move as no matter what, it almost always works against the goal of keeping a format balanced. The more high powered the format gets, the less diverse a format becomes. So here we have wizards unbanning Bloodbraid Elf and Jace, the Mind sculptor and I feel like this is just another repeat of Golgari Grave-troll and sword of the meek. The best possible outcome from this is that the format doesn't change a whole lot and there's still a variety of different strategies to use.
The only reason I can think of for them unbanning these cards is that they wanted to hype up the masters 25 set and likely planned this entire thing out well in advance of the unban decision. There's basically no reason otherwise to have unban anything.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
My problem with the unbans is that Modern has a problem of often getting too fast / powerful / reliable when new cards get introduced, hence the reason the ban list even exists. Unbanning a card is a highly unusual move as no matter what, it almost always works against the goal of keeping a format balanced. The more high powered the format gets, the less diverse a format becomes. So here we have wizards unbanning Bloodbraid Elf and Jace, the Mind sculptor and I feel like this is just another repeat of Golgari Grave-troll and sword of the meek. The best possible outcome from this is that the format doesn't change a whole lot and there's still a variety of different strategies to use.
The only reason I can think of for them unbanning these cards is that they wanted to hype up the masters 25 set and likely planned this entire thing out well in advance of the unban decision. There's basically no reason otherwise to have unban anything.
That's not the only thing though. You forget that Modern is a format that started with a banlsit, and that several cards (like JTMS) were never actually tried in the format for a decent amount of time. It makes sense to introduce powerful cards in a format that you believe has developed ahead of them. Therefore, if wizards believes that modern has developed enough power, then they can let JTMS loose.
In all this M25 conspiracy, let's not forget that Aaron Forsythe had tweeted last year that they were actually discussing JTMS (I don't have the time to find the tweet now, but I'll do it later if I can). There were mixed responses to that (from no please don't to yes please do, in varying degrees), but the fact of the matter was that they had started the discussion on JTMS at least a year ago.
During that year, and if we are to believe the announcement, which I don't see why we shouldn't, they've been discussing and monitoring the format, not moving any parts. I assume that JTMS was always in those discussions, because we know they talked about it. I think the decision to get JTMS out of the banlist was one they considered for a decent amount of time and deemed he would be fine.
Do they also want to sell product with JTMS in it? Of course, it's a company, they want to make money. But saying that the only reason they did it is M25 is pure speculation and it goes against all other evidence we have.
The JTMS unban was silly but I wouldn't worry too much. Golgari Grave-Troll set a precedent that, if an unban proves to be a mistake, they will just quickly ban it again.
Except Jace is now half a grand
Sword of the Meek shot up in price when it was unbanned to like $40 and now sits at $5. People may want to try to profit on the sheer shock value of the unbanning, but Jace's price will ultimately be a result of the card's viability. If people aren't at least 5-0'ing leagues in a couple months, it'll go down real quick.
My problem with the unbans is that Modern has a problem of often getting too fast / powerful / reliable when new cards get introduced, hence the reason the ban list even exists. Unbanning a card is a highly unusual move as no matter what, it almost always works against the goal of keeping a format balanced. The more high powered the format gets, the less diverse a format becomes. So here we have wizards unbanning Bloodbraid Elf and Jace, the Mind sculptor and I feel like this is just another repeat of Golgari Grave-troll and sword of the meek. The best possible outcome from this is that the format doesn't change a whole lot and there's still a variety of different strategies to use.
The only reason I can think of for them unbanning these cards is that they wanted to hype up the masters 25 set and likely planned this entire thing out well in advance of the unban decision. There's basically no reason otherwise to have unban anything.
That's not the only thing though. You forget that Modern is a format that started with a banlsit, and that several cards (like JTMS) were never actually tried in the format for a decent amount of time. It makes sense to introduce powerful cards in a format that you believe has developed ahead of them. Therefore, if wizards believes that modern has developed enough power, then they can let JTMS loose.
In all this M25 conspiracy, let's not forget that Aaron Forsythe had tweeted last year that they were actually discussing JTMS (I don't have the time to find the tweet now, but I'll do it later if I can). There were mixed responses to that (from no please don't to yes please do, in varying degrees), but the fact of the matter was that they had started the discussion on JTMS at least a year ago.
During that year, and if we are to believe the announcement, which I don't see why we shouldn't, they've been discussing and monitoring the format, not moving any parts. I assume that JTMS was always in those discussions, because we know they talked about it. I think the decision to get JTMS out of the banlist was one they considered for a decent amount of time and deemed he would be fine.
Do they also want to sell product with JTMS in it? Of course, it's a company, they want to make money. But saying that the only reason they did it is M25 is pure speculation and it goes against all other evidence we have.
Okay, so lets take this example and say that because Jace was never tested in modern it's okay to unban it. Lets look back at standard and current legacy where he saw use: He is literally the only card in the history of magic to have ever exceeded 100 usd while in standard and was part of one of the most notorious decks in the history of magic "Caw Blade". He is a game ending card that won by basically fate sealing the opponent, preventing them from reliably executing their strategy while they get pummeled to death helplessly, then ultimate.
The best possible outcome we got out of this is that Jace is another Sword of the Meek and just isn't efficient enough to really get into T1 T2 status. At worse he ends up being a premier win condition in multiple decks and everyone who still plays modern will get to experience what is basically a much easier to execute Lantern Control, except that it can fit in far more builds. Even if it doesn't make T1-T2 status, no one I can think of who played during Caw Blade enjoys the thought of facing Jace again. But, if Jace takes off I guess we all get to sit and watch with diabolical glee as a whole new generation of players get to experience pain.
It's sort of like Fist of the North Star with the finger pokes of explody gory death. For example of what I'm referring to... Cell vs Kenshiro
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The JTMS unban was silly but I wouldn't worry too much. Golgari Grave-Troll set a precedent that, if an unban proves to be a mistake, they will just quickly ban it again.
Except Jace is now half a grand
Sword of the Meek shot up in price when it was unbanned to like $40 and now sits at $5. People may want to try to profit on the sheer shock value of the unbanning, but Jace's price will ultimately be a result of the card's viability. If people aren't at least 5-0'ing leagues in a couple months, it'll go down real quick.
Sure, sure, cause Sword of the Meek is on Jace's power level
I am a huge proponent of unbanning SFM and so it is hard for me to approach the subject objectively but I did find something interesting of which we should take note. Here is the original modern announcement and justification for the initial banlist
In discussing SFM they stated "I hope that the fact this card is on the banned list isn't a surprise to you. Stoneforge Mystic has by now made its mark on every format from Standard to Legacy, and Stoneforge-based blue control decks regularly do well in Legacy tournaments. Porting such decks into Modern was a trivial affair, and resulted in very powerful decks. We prefer to just ban this card rather than risk yet another format dominated by Stoneforge Mystic."
But the Jace discussion is quite a bit less ominous "You'll notice that we haven't touched a blue card yet. When we got to this point and realized that blue was escaping unscathed, we knew we had to ban something, or a very powerful blue control deck would likely be the best thing left. We had a large number of choices, but we chose to take our cues from Legacy, as an excellent way to measure objective card power is to see what cards are played in Magic's most powerful high-level tournament format. Jace, the Mind Sculptor is the obvious candidate. Jace is strong enough to be banned in Standard, is a Legacy staple, and has been in three of the four decks that made the finals of the last two Vintage championships."
The difference in these two is striking. They state that Jace got banned because they realized they had to ban something that was blue and they figured people had seen enough of him in standard and could play him in legacy if they wanted. They never stated he was too good for modern, or even potentially very dangerous. They simply stated at the time they were concerned blue based control decks would be the best in the format and Jace was the obvious candidate.
The SFM explanation though straight up says it should not come as a surprise and that they don't want to risk another SFM dominated format. I realize that this was from 2011 and the format is worlds different now, but I think it shows that all along they saw Jace as acceptable as far as power level and they were waiting until the meta was right to release him. They clearly don't believe that about SFM according to that announcement. They paint SFM as the single biggest offender in their "second criterion" category, with the rest all kind of halfheartedly tossed in. I mean dread return sounds more likely to come off than SFM does from that announcement.
I know many of us were surprised that SFM got leapfrogged for Jace, but the writing has been on the wall since 2011. Maybe we shouldn't have been.
EDIT: Also something else to note. They clearly (at least at the beginning) look at legacy as a parameter when discussing modern bans and I believe legacy certainly had some effect on SFM staying banned.
Comparing Jace to Sword of the Meek, Thopter Foundry is very disingenuous. Jace is the most iconic magic card after Black Lotus for a reason
You seem to be missing the point of the comparison. The point is it either makes an impact, or it's too clunky / impotent to do anything vs the field. Jace is one of the strongest cards ever printed in the modern era: In fact, it's probably the most powerful card since the introduction of mythics and my fear is that it does leave an impact. In fact, I'm worried that JtMS just killed a ton of potentially fair decks in modern since the answer to jace is to just go under him fast enough to make his abilities worthless. Dredge, Affinity, Infect, and even Tron are a few good examples.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I am a huge proponent of unbanning SFM and so it is hard for me to approach the subject objectively but I did find something interesting of which we should take note. Here is the original modern announcement and justification for the initial banlist
In discussing SFM they stated "I hope that the fact this card is on the banned list isn't a surprise to you. Stoneforge Mystic has by now made its mark on every format from Standard to Legacy, and Stoneforge-based blue control decks regularly do well in Legacy tournaments. Porting such decks into Modern was a trivial affair, and resulted in very powerful decks. We prefer to just ban this card rather than risk yet another format dominated by Stoneforge Mystic."
But the Jace discussion is quite a bit less ominous "You'll notice that we haven't touched a blue card yet. When we got to this point and realized that blue was escaping unscathed, we knew we had to ban something, or a very powerful blue control deck would likely be the best thing left. We had a large number of choices, but we chose to take our cues from Legacy, as an excellent way to measure objective card power is to see what cards are played in Magic's most powerful high-level tournament format. Jace, the Mind Sculptor is the obvious candidate. Jace is strong enough to be banned in Standard, is a Legacy staple, and has been in three of the four decks that made the finals of the last two Vintage championships."
The difference in these two is striking. They state that Jace got banned because they realized they had to ban something that was blue and they figured people had seen enough of him in standard and could play him in legacy if they wanted. They never stated he was too good for modern, or even potentially very dangerous. They simply stated at the time they were concerned blue based control decks would be the best in the format and Jace was the obvious candidate.
The SFM explanation though straight up says it should not come as a surprise and that they don't want to risk another SFM dominated format. I realize that this was from 2011 and the format is worlds different now, but I think it shows that all along they saw Jace as acceptable as far as power level and they were waiting until the meta was right to release him. They clearly don't believe that about SFM according to that announcement. They paint SFM as the single biggest offender in their "second criterion" category, with the rest all kind of halfheartedly tossed in. I mean dread return sounds more likely to come off than SFM does from that announcement.
I know many of us were surprised that SFM got leapfrogged for Jace, but the writing has been on the wall since 2011. Maybe we shouldn't have been.
EDIT: Also something else to note. They clearly (at least at the beginning) look at legacy as a parameter when discussing modern bans and I believe legacy certainly had some effect on SFM staying banned.
As someone who plays SFM in legacy... it is a far more powerful card.
I don't even understand how people think JTMS is "broken" but SFM would be fine.
Battleskull isn't even the most degenerate thing you can do with SFM. A turn 4 sword + equip that can't be countered is.
If you could easily tutor sword of fire and ice and get it into play around counter magic... that would shake up the format to such an absurd degree.
The JTMS unban was silly but I wouldn't worry too much. Golgari Grave-Troll set a precedent that, if an unban proves to be a mistake, they will just quickly ban it again.
Well, if we're being totally real here, Golgari Grave-Troll was never actually a problem in the deck for more than a year after being unbanned. It was Prized Amalgam, Insolent Neonate, and Cathartic Reunion all printed in short succession that busted the deck to pieces. Reunion is far more explosive than Grave Troll, but Troll was the easier target to reban so that people have an excuse to buy new cards from a current standard set.
If they print something that somehow breaks Jace, hopefully they go after that target instead of Jace itself. I honestly think that without ubiquitous free counterspells for protection, he'll just be another midrange/control card. Nothing broken about that.
The JTMS unban was silly but I wouldn't worry too much. Golgari Grave-Troll set a precedent that, if an unban proves to be a mistake, they will just quickly ban it again.
Well, if we're being totally real here, Golgari Grave-Troll was never actually a problem in the deck for more than a year after being unbanned. It was Prized Amalgam, Insolent Neonate, and Cathartic Reunion all printed in short succession that busted the deck to pieces. Reunion is far more explosive than Grave Troll, but Troll was the easier target to reban so that people have an excuse to buy new cards from a current standard set.
If they print something that somehow breaks Jace, hopefully they go after that target instead of Jace itself. I honestly think that without ubiquitous free counterspells for protection, he'll just be another midrange/control card. Nothing broken about that.
This. 100%. The Golgari Grave-Troll comparison drives me crazy. Grave-Troll was a perfectly fine unban.
Dredge never became a thing until Cathartic Reunion was printed. That's why it's still tier 2 even with the ban.
But instead of killing the deck, wizards decided to simply reban Grave-Troll to slow it down. Now it's a tier 2 deck. It was barely tier 3 prior to reunion, even with grave troll in the format.
The JTMS unban was silly but I wouldn't worry too much. Golgari Grave-Troll set a precedent that, if an unban proves to be a mistake, they will just quickly ban it again.
Except Jace is now half a grand
Sword of the Meek shot up in price when it was unbanned to like $40 and now sits at $5. People may want to try to profit on the sheer shock value of the unbanning, but Jace's price will ultimately be a result of the card's viability. If people aren't at least 5-0'ing leagues in a couple months, it'll go down real quick.
Sure, sure, cause Sword of the Meek is on Jace's power level
And 160 dollars=500 dollars?
I was talking economics and market forces, not gameplay. If Jace doesn't see play in a top tier deck, the demand from modern players just won't be there. It's price will fall back towards the previous levels, no harm, no foul. In fact, the reprint helps by giving another option, because without M25 there would have been a real chance of price memory keeping Jace at $140+ as no sellers want to be the first one to start dropping the price.
The BBE homogenization is a more real fear because that card goes solidly into Jund with a few splash improvements for Temur, Zoo, Shamans, and other untiered fun stuff. This historically means Jund will benefit the most; see stuff like KCommand going into lots of decks but largely benefiting the best decks at the time of its arrival. That said, I don't think BBE is itself very powerful in all metagames, so we should still see comparative advantages to Mardu vs. Abzan vs. Jund and others. I'll also say that Jund is just pretty bad right now so it being better isn't a bad thing. I'm all for more policing decks in Modern as long as it isn't a midrange Standard slugfest or a DRS 2.0.
1) A random selection of 'expert' modern magic players ('expert' defined by a rigid construct such as an arbitrary amount of hours playing the format or accrued ranks in tournament play).
2) The options in the poll were randomized, instead of displayed alphabetically, such that the options wouldn't produce a 'primacy' effect. Since it was displayed alphabetically, Bloodbraid Elf was higher on the list and seen earlier. Thus, more people were likely to see her. 'I don't want any cards banned now' was at the bottom, thus it was less likely for people to see it before choosing an earlier option.
3) A comparator poll to function as a control, in similar design as above, but which could be something like a random selection of 'non-expert' modern magic players.
4) Run a formal test with a defined threshold to determine if the polls were different from one another.
*You'd have a 'better' source of evidence- the randomized control trial. The only thing that is 'better' than a RCT is a meta-analysis, which compares the results from multitudes of polls, which were conducted in the same manner, before drawing a conclusion.
Until then, as inferior as they might be, I'll take my expert opinions.
I'm going to suggest that the ability to even jam 4 of these in modern is extremely low compared with 4 SFM. Basically I think that the cmc is prohibitive and therefore these cards are just lower risk in the low cost creature dominated modern format.
Legacy - LED Dredge, ANT & WDnT
From my perspective its just a boogy man effect. Personally I dont thing STM or JTMS will do a whole lot and if im right about JTMS perhaps STM is soon to follow. As to why they chose JTMS its probably a consistency thing. Id imagine wizards is way more worried about a 2 drop tutor and cheater than a 4 drop walker that is mostly going to cast brainstorm. Keep in mind that a ton of the cards on the modern banned list are there for consistency/ card advantage reason. Of the original modern ban list AV was probably the safest and turns out the world didnt falldown. JTMS is just second.
GW Rhys the Redeemed EDH
RUGAnimar, Soul of Elements EDH
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death EDH
Ya I have been pushing for a twin unban but after reading the announcement yesterday anyone would have to acknowledge that WOTC is saying that twin is still unhealthy. I may talk more about twin in the future, but that defiantly has to be on hold a while. It just doesn't look realistic or possible in the near future for a twin unban, and that is hard for me to say.
Except Jace is now half a grand
The only reason I can think of for them unbanning these cards is that they wanted to hype up the masters 25 set and likely planned this entire thing out well in advance of the unban decision. There's basically no reason otherwise to have unban anything.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
In all this M25 conspiracy, let's not forget that Aaron Forsythe had tweeted last year that they were actually discussing JTMS (I don't have the time to find the tweet now, but I'll do it later if I can). There were mixed responses to that (from no please don't to yes please do, in varying degrees), but the fact of the matter was that they had started the discussion on JTMS at least a year ago.
During that year, and if we are to believe the announcement, which I don't see why we shouldn't, they've been discussing and monitoring the format, not moving any parts. I assume that JTMS was always in those discussions, because we know they talked about it. I think the decision to get JTMS out of the banlist was one they considered for a decent amount of time and deemed he would be fine.
Do they also want to sell product with JTMS in it? Of course, it's a company, they want to make money. But saying that the only reason they did it is M25 is pure speculation and it goes against all other evidence we have.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Sword of the Meek shot up in price when it was unbanned to like $40 and now sits at $5. People may want to try to profit on the sheer shock value of the unbanning, but Jace's price will ultimately be a result of the card's viability. If people aren't at least 5-0'ing leagues in a couple months, it'll go down real quick.
Okay, so lets take this example and say that because Jace was never tested in modern it's okay to unban it. Lets look back at standard and current legacy where he saw use: He is literally the only card in the history of magic to have ever exceeded 100 usd while in standard and was part of one of the most notorious decks in the history of magic "Caw Blade". He is a game ending card that won by basically fate sealing the opponent, preventing them from reliably executing their strategy while they get pummeled to death helplessly, then ultimate.
The best possible outcome we got out of this is that Jace is another Sword of the Meek and just isn't efficient enough to really get into T1 T2 status. At worse he ends up being a premier win condition in multiple decks and everyone who still plays modern will get to experience what is basically a much easier to execute Lantern Control, except that it can fit in far more builds. Even if it doesn't make T1-T2 status, no one I can think of who played during Caw Blade enjoys the thought of facing Jace again. But, if Jace takes off I guess we all get to sit and watch with diabolical glee as a whole new generation of players get to experience pain.
It's sort of like Fist of the North Star with the finger pokes of explody gory death. For example of what I'm referring to...
Cell vs Kenshiro
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Sure, sure, cause Sword of the Meek is on Jace's power level
And 160 dollars=500 dollars?
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/welcome-modern-world-2011-08-12
In discussing SFM they stated "I hope that the fact this card is on the banned list isn't a surprise to you. Stoneforge Mystic has by now made its mark on every format from Standard to Legacy, and Stoneforge-based blue control decks regularly do well in Legacy tournaments. Porting such decks into Modern was a trivial affair, and resulted in very powerful decks. We prefer to just ban this card rather than risk yet another format dominated by Stoneforge Mystic."
But the Jace discussion is quite a bit less ominous "You'll notice that we haven't touched a blue card yet. When we got to this point and realized that blue was escaping unscathed, we knew we had to ban something, or a very powerful blue control deck would likely be the best thing left. We had a large number of choices, but we chose to take our cues from Legacy, as an excellent way to measure objective card power is to see what cards are played in Magic's most powerful high-level tournament format. Jace, the Mind Sculptor is the obvious candidate. Jace is strong enough to be banned in Standard, is a Legacy staple, and has been in three of the four decks that made the finals of the last two Vintage championships."
The difference in these two is striking. They state that Jace got banned because they realized they had to ban something that was blue and they figured people had seen enough of him in standard and could play him in legacy if they wanted. They never stated he was too good for modern, or even potentially very dangerous. They simply stated at the time they were concerned blue based control decks would be the best in the format and Jace was the obvious candidate.
The SFM explanation though straight up says it should not come as a surprise and that they don't want to risk another SFM dominated format. I realize that this was from 2011 and the format is worlds different now, but I think it shows that all along they saw Jace as acceptable as far as power level and they were waiting until the meta was right to release him. They clearly don't believe that about SFM according to that announcement. They paint SFM as the single biggest offender in their "second criterion" category, with the rest all kind of halfheartedly tossed in. I mean dread return sounds more likely to come off than SFM does from that announcement.
I know many of us were surprised that SFM got leapfrogged for Jace, but the writing has been on the wall since 2011. Maybe we shouldn't have been.
EDIT: Also something else to note. They clearly (at least at the beginning) look at legacy as a parameter when discussing modern bans and I believe legacy certainly had some effect on SFM staying banned.
You seem to be missing the point of the comparison. The point is it either makes an impact, or it's too clunky / impotent to do anything vs the field. Jace is one of the strongest cards ever printed in the modern era: In fact, it's probably the most powerful card since the introduction of mythics and my fear is that it does leave an impact. In fact, I'm worried that JtMS just killed a ton of potentially fair decks in modern since the answer to jace is to just go under him fast enough to make his abilities worthless. Dredge, Affinity, Infect, and even Tron are a few good examples.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
As someone who plays SFM in legacy... it is a far more powerful card.
I don't even understand how people think JTMS is "broken" but SFM would be fine.
Battleskull isn't even the most degenerate thing you can do with SFM. A turn 4 sword + equip that can't be countered is.
If you could easily tutor sword of fire and ice and get it into play around counter magic... that would shake up the format to such an absurd degree.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Well, if we're being totally real here, Golgari Grave-Troll was never actually a problem in the deck for more than a year after being unbanned. It was Prized Amalgam, Insolent Neonate, and Cathartic Reunion all printed in short succession that busted the deck to pieces. Reunion is far more explosive than Grave Troll, but Troll was the easier target to reban so that people have an excuse to buy new cards from a current standard set.
If they print something that somehow breaks Jace, hopefully they go after that target instead of Jace itself. I honestly think that without ubiquitous free counterspells for protection, he'll just be another midrange/control card. Nothing broken about that.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
This. 100%. The Golgari Grave-Troll comparison drives me crazy. Grave-Troll was a perfectly fine unban.
Dredge never became a thing until Cathartic Reunion was printed. That's why it's still tier 2 even with the ban.
But instead of killing the deck, wizards decided to simply reban Grave-Troll to slow it down. Now it's a tier 2 deck. It was barely tier 3 prior to reunion, even with grave troll in the format.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Calm down until the card is even legal!
Legacy - LED Dredge, ANT & WDnT
I was talking economics and market forces, not gameplay. If Jace doesn't see play in a top tier deck, the demand from modern players just won't be there. It's price will fall back towards the previous levels, no harm, no foul. In fact, the reprint helps by giving another option, because without M25 there would have been a real chance of price memory keeping Jace at $140+ as no sellers want to be the first one to start dropping the price.
Blue mages don't just tap out willy nilly and cast Jace.
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
So turn 5 Jace, even less to complain about
Legacy - LED Dredge, ANT & WDnT
liliana's defeat doesn't do anything to Jace
Or Turn 6, if you are leaving up U1/UU.
People freaking out over a card that is likely a 3 of, max, in Control decks, or makes RUG/BUG a thing.
Spirits