I think Field of Ruin makes a huge impact on that match up, and if people choose to, they can bring Control very close to parity with Tron.
EDIT: And also, I am in a state of disbelief that Jace came off, and Twin sits still imprisoned. I am positive it will never come off, but my desire to play combo is undiminished....
Jace is very powerful, but I will say one thing, he is not a good card when you're far behind. If you slam him down with an opposing board presence and those 3 cards have no answers, you're going to fall behind fast.
For now, Jace gets my seal of approval because he doesn't break the rule of being amazing at every stage of the game.
Instead of being all doom and gloom here---whats everyones prediction on what deck will really benefit from Jace?
For example, will Grixis, Jeskai or UW be the best control deck for him? Will it be miracles?
Will soon some UB or Sultai deck be the best? Jace seems like he's best in a midrange deck, that midrange deck doesn't exist just yet, it could in a month.
I've said a few times already, but as I'm grinding out games online, that RUG deck just flat out murdered me. Even the beating you can get from Traverse 4C DS isnt as bad.
BBE, AV, Jace + Scooze + Goyf + Bolt + Tracker, just buried me, and its not like I didnt interact (I was on UWR w/Jace), I just didnt have enough to get the job done, even when I got my own Jace online, I didnt have the pressure needed to make any kind of comeback.
well the power of the control variants sorta rotates depending on what else is going on in the format, and jace doesn't really do anything to change that.
there is also the infighting amongst the fair decks as people keep trying to squeeze more and more 'value' into their lists. which of course leaves an opening for all sorts of aggro/combo decks to slip into.
i agree that jace is a stronger midrange card than a control card. UGx decks will definitely be on the rise, some of these rug and bant lists look pretty juicy.
i dont ever see UB being a thing
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I've said a few times already, but as I'm grinding out games online, that RUG deck just flat out murdered me. Even the beating you can get from Traverse 4C DS isnt as bad.
BBE, AV, Jace + Scooze + Goyf + Bolt + Tracker, just buried me, and its not like I didnt interact (I was on UWR w/Jace), I just didnt have enough to get the job done, even when I got my own Jace online, I didnt have the pressure needed to make any kind of comeback.
Thats the scary deck to me.
Is that pretty close to the j.a. eliso list with as foretold, bloodmoon and noble?
Benjamin Nicolich just stated at an SCG interview on stream that "Jace is too strong for Modern, he will be gone in six months". It seems like the idea that Jace is gonna break everything is quite popular among SCG players (although not all).
Benjamin Nicolich just stated at an SCG interview on stream that "Jace is too strong for Modern, he will be gone in six months". It seems like the idea that Jace is gonna break everything is quite popular among SCG players (although not all).
Because a disproportionate amount of people play Blue decks at SCG events. You have stubborn people like me that jam it week after week, whether it's good or not. Jace makes those decks better. So from their perspective, I could see them thinking that. I don't agree with it whatsoever though. If it does nothing else but make a few "almost there" blue decks into "solidly Tier 1," then the unban did exactly what it set out to do: solve the mediocrity of Uxx decks in the 2-year wake of banning Twin.
I just wanted to get in on the DeCandio is a moron train. He's a moron. The definition of hyperbole should be linked to his grade school article.
OK, I feel better.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
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Benjamin Nicolich just stated at an SCG interview on stream that "Jace is too strong for Modern, he will be gone in six months". It seems like the idea that Jace is gonna break everything is quite popular among SCG players (although not all).
Many SCG players thrive on controversial, hyperbolic, and polarizing comments. It's epidemic in many SCG articles, probably because it has a favorable ratio of low-energy to high view count. It's just easy to jump on some kind of bandwagon (anti-Tron, anti-JTMS, pro-FOTM deck, etc.) and ride it than to carve out a unique opinion based on extensive testing or analysis of results. Also, as we see on these forums all the time, it's always tempting to make an outrageous claim for "I told you so" points later and to make a confident hype-generating quotable now. That's what we saw for the last year when people who actually tried to read the format in a measured, analytic manner saw "no changes/bans" coming in every period.
Players can fight back against this sensationalism by arguing against it online and in game shops, not giving clicks/views to bad articles, and not repeating comments that don't warrant repetition. How much of the "ban x" talk really panned out? Basically none. See Company, Temple, all things Tron, Bridge, Moon, SSG, Opal, DS, Wraith, fetchlands, 8th/9th edition, Goryo's, Stirrings, Baral, PiF, TS, etc. Clowny Magic personalities suggest these kinda of bans all the time, get echoed as such cool/edgy/decisive/insightful gurus of the format. They are almost always just plain wrong and are no more insightful than the average Twitch chat memer. Let's not give them more credibility.
Without any more data to back things up the primary reason people don't like Jace in modern is sort of the same reason people didn't like Thoughtseize back in the days of Lorwyn Faeries and once more in Theros. Both cards were fairly oppressive during their times in standard and Jace was especially bad thanks to his role in Caw Blade. The dislike for the card isn't based on fact as much as just a seething dislike born from standard play.
Also, modern was perfectly okay and then WoTC decided to unban JtMS and BBE, which is something that's causing a lot of face palms.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'm confused what this comment is supposed to mean. Is it saying that Twin decks would beat Jace? Maybe, but Twin isn't legal. Or are you saying that, if someone had the choice between being able to run Splinter Twin and being able to run Jace, Splinter Twin is the better card to have access to?
How much better do you think Tron will become in the new meta?
Tron traditionally does very well against both Jund and control decks, the exact homes for Bloodbraid Elf and Jace.
Could these unbans actually push the archetype over the top?
Disclaimer: this isn't a jab at you but it is a statement against the outrageous anti-Tron vitriol online. Maybe you are just asking a question, but I read it as in dialogue with all the other anti-Tron hyperbole.
I'm a little exhausted by the apocalyptic anti-Tron crowd. It's been particularly bad in the last year; everything is a sign of the pending Tron doomsday. Tron winning GP? Tron too strong. Too many interactive decks in Modern? Tron well-positioned for takeover. New unbans? Tron about to get insane due to being good against unbanned cards. PT around the corner? Tron the best deck get ready for bans. Lantern wins PT? Ban Stirrings so we can also hit Tron which is broken. It's just a crusade at this point. Everything becomes a sign of the coming Tron end times and it doesn't really advance our discussion or understanding of the format. I'd rather talk about Twin of all things than more unsupported anti-Tron mania.
If for whatever reason Tron starts to do well against these new decks, we'll see Hollow One, Affinity, Burn, Storm, Grishoalbrand, etc. roll right back to beat big mana. This is what we saw all year. Modern is incredibly self-correcting at this point. That's why we saw lots of big mana at GP OKC, the Modern world had a collective aneurysm, and then big mana did not make waves at either the PT or GP Van. The format is self-regulating. There is no reason to believe unbans that don't even target the deck in question will cause imbalance. We're even seeing more anti-Tron technology emerge in interactive decks, like Field of Ruin. We need to tone down the sensationalistic Modern claims and stick with more measured analysis. This measured analysis predicted every "no changes" update over the last 12+ months, predicted metagame corrections, and predicted at least the BBE unban. This is the way we should be proceeding.
Tron is fine the onus is on the player base to police itself. If midrange and control decks don't feel the need to find ways to interact with Tron in modern then we deserve to lose to it's inevitability. The same with valakut decks. Especially now that Wizards has given modern a wasteland effect that is reasonably costed. Sure you may still lose to turn 3 tron. Between Spreading Seas, Field of Ruin, Thoughtseize, Surgical Extraction, and friends you should be able to give yourself game against tron.
Are you suggesting that these cards should have been unbanned in a non-healthy modern? And why would wizards not help struggling archetypes?
Actually no. I just think Wizards goofed up in how they handled the timing with the spoilers along with when they did the unban. I think if they had done this in April the situation would have been treated differently.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'm very excited to see how Dominaria and the new core set impact the format. Play design input should start to kick in big time and give us plenty of new answer cards.
I'm confused what this comment is supposed to mean. Is it saying that Twin decks would beat Jace? Maybe, but Twin isn't legal. Or are you saying that, if someone had the choice between being able to run Splinter Twin and being able to run Jace, Splinter Twin is the better card to have access to?
Pretty much the last point.
If Twin was legal, Jace would be a sideboard card. Just something I have thought since the unbans.
I'm holding Jace I'm under pressure and I don't have a sweeper.
Twin would still be an out. Jace isn't.
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UW Spirits
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EDIT: And also, I am in a state of disbelief that Jace came off, and Twin sits still imprisoned. I am positive it will never come off, but my desire to play combo is undiminished....
Spirits
For now, Jace gets my seal of approval because he doesn't break the rule of being amazing at every stage of the game.
Instead of being all doom and gloom here---whats everyones prediction on what deck will really benefit from Jace?
For example, will Grixis, Jeskai or UW be the best control deck for him? Will it be miracles?
Will soon some UB or Sultai deck be the best? Jace seems like he's best in a midrange deck, that midrange deck doesn't exist just yet, it could in a month.
BBE, AV, Jace + Scooze + Goyf + Bolt + Tracker, just buried me, and its not like I didnt interact (I was on UWR w/Jace), I just didnt have enough to get the job done, even when I got my own Jace online, I didnt have the pressure needed to make any kind of comeback.
Thats the scary deck to me.
Spirits
Or was that intentional sarcasm?
Reference from Anchorman: https://youtu.be/pjvQFtlNQ-M
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
there is also the infighting amongst the fair decks as people keep trying to squeeze more and more 'value' into their lists. which of course leaves an opening for all sorts of aggro/combo decks to slip into.
i agree that jace is a stronger midrange card than a control card. UGx decks will definitely be on the rise, some of these rug and bant lists look pretty juicy.
i dont ever see UB being a thing
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Is that pretty close to the j.a. eliso list with as foretold, bloodmoon and noble?
Spirits
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Spirits
About 2/3 the way down the page deck by J.a. eliso.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-modern-constructed-league-2018-02-16
Because a disproportionate amount of people play Blue decks at SCG events. You have stubborn people like me that jam it week after week, whether it's good or not. Jace makes those decks better. So from their perspective, I could see them thinking that. I don't agree with it whatsoever though. If it does nothing else but make a few "almost there" blue decks into "solidly Tier 1," then the unban did exactly what it set out to do: solve the mediocrity of Uxx decks in the 2-year wake of banning Twin.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Cool, I never saw As Foretold, but the shell writes itself. :]
And yeah, I'm with cfusionpm, SCG has a lot of Blue, so 'omg you boosted blue' is going to have an impact.
That said, I've yet to face a deck and go 'omg Jace is broken'.
He's still not saving you from 3 Hollow Ones swinging on Turn 3.
Spirits
OK, I feel better.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Many SCG players thrive on controversial, hyperbolic, and polarizing comments. It's epidemic in many SCG articles, probably because it has a favorable ratio of low-energy to high view count. It's just easy to jump on some kind of bandwagon (anti-Tron, anti-JTMS, pro-FOTM deck, etc.) and ride it than to carve out a unique opinion based on extensive testing or analysis of results. Also, as we see on these forums all the time, it's always tempting to make an outrageous claim for "I told you so" points later and to make a confident hype-generating quotable now. That's what we saw for the last year when people who actually tried to read the format in a measured, analytic manner saw "no changes/bans" coming in every period.
Players can fight back against this sensationalism by arguing against it online and in game shops, not giving clicks/views to bad articles, and not repeating comments that don't warrant repetition. How much of the "ban x" talk really panned out? Basically none. See Company, Temple, all things Tron, Bridge, Moon, SSG, Opal, DS, Wraith, fetchlands, 8th/9th edition, Goryo's, Stirrings, Baral, PiF, TS, etc. Clowny Magic personalities suggest these kinda of bans all the time, get echoed as such cool/edgy/decisive/insightful gurus of the format. They are almost always just plain wrong and are no more insightful than the average Twitch chat memer. Let's not give them more credibility.
Also, modern was perfectly okay and then WoTC decided to unban JtMS and BBE, which is something that's causing a lot of face palms.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Have you been doing so Colt?
I've played him in Grixis, in UWR, and UW. I've...spent quite a bit since the unbans and while that's likely a minor regret I can say this.
In my experience, I bet he loses to Twin.
In my experience, it's not Jace that's winning games.
In my experience, he doesn't do much but break a stalemated board. Which for 4 mana...he better.
In my experience, BBE is going to result in a lot more 'bad feels' than the supposed fate seal death.
BTW, I've not won, or lost a game since Wednesday, via fate seal.
It's like 99% the brainstorming that gives him worth.
BBE on the other hand, has a lot of hits in Modern, and Jace into BBE after a brainstorm is going to win games.
Spirits
one thing is for sure though. playing jace optimally is really friggin hard
also that twin comment sorta came out of nowhere lol
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Tron is fine the onus is on the player base to police itself. If midrange and control decks don't feel the need to find ways to interact with Tron in modern then we deserve to lose to it's inevitability. The same with valakut decks. Especially now that Wizards has given modern a wasteland effect that is reasonably costed. Sure you may still lose to turn 3 tron. Between Spreading Seas, Field of Ruin, Thoughtseize, Surgical Extraction, and friends you should be able to give yourself game against tron.
Actually no. I just think Wizards goofed up in how they handled the timing with the spoilers along with when they did the unban. I think if they had done this in April the situation would have been treated differently.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Pretty much the last point.
If Twin was legal, Jace would be a sideboard card. Just something I have thought since the unbans.
I'm holding Jace I'm under pressure and I don't have a sweeper.
Twin would still be an out. Jace isn't.
Spirits