I must be in the minority, in that I dont really care about how 'miserable' lantern is. Do they have the lock? Scoop it. Thats all it takes. I have issue with Ancient Stirrings, far more than I do Lantern.
So Lantern is the new flavour of the month "Best Deck-needs to be banned" eh?
I've lost track of how many decks have been deemed "too good" or whatever you call it over the last months. First it was Shadow, than E-Tron, than Storm, than Shadow again, than normal Tron, than Affinity and now Lantern. Guess what? Nothing has been banned despite constant claims that the sky is falling.
Jesus Christ.
Nothing needs to be banned on Monday. If Lantern keeps winning big tournaments, gets a too high meta share or causes big logistical problems, action has to be taken but what if it's just another flavour of the month deck until the metagame adapts like all those other decks mentioned before?
People have generally disliked Lantern as a deck since it first became a deck. Watching others suffer (either on camera or in person) is one thing, but the novelty of its unique gameplay wears off quickly when you actually have to play against it yourself. It's the epitome of frustrating and miserable gameplay that promotes terrible experiences for most people involved. These kinds of decks are usually not a problem if they exist in the fringe or have several natural predators. But when it works its way up to winning multiple GPs and a PT, then we have to question whether or not we want this to be a face of the format.
It's not a knee-jerk reaction for people to be hating on Lantern or wanting something banned. It's justifiable and credible when faced with the results it has achieved, the kind of consistency and resilience it holds, and the utter horrible and unfun experience it produces. In the past, wining and consistency were already enough for a ban. Lantern has the added stigma of being awful to play against and extremely slow in the hands of lesser skilled pilots.
Now, will something be banned from it? Probably not. But I would not at all be surprised to see something hit Monday. If something is not hit Monday and it wins any other event in the near future, I expect a ban following that performance.
Well put. "The novelty runs out when you actually have to play against it yourself." Yep.
Also, people have noticed the bump in the power level of the deck with its tutor, Whir of Invention.
I think some comparisons can be given to Lantern before Whir of Invention and Dredge (with Prized Amalgam and Insolent Neonate) before Cathartic Reunion. The main difference is that those cards all came out so close in succession that maybe people didn't know how to analyze what is the main issue with Dredge. I personally believed it was Cathartic Reunion that pushed it over, but the ban choice actually allowed Dredge to survive, but just a notch below what it previously was.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
So Lantern is the new flavour of the month "Best Deck-needs to be banned" eh?
I've lost track of how many decks have been deemed "too good" or whatever you call it over the last months. First it was Shadow, than E-Tron, than Storm, than Shadow again, than normal Tron, than Affinity and now Lantern. Guess what? Nothing has been banned despite constant claims that the sky is falling.
Jesus Christ.
Nothing needs to be banned on Monday. If Lantern keeps winning big tournaments, gets a too high meta share or causes big logistical problems, action has to be taken but what if it's just another flavour of the month deck until the metagame adapts like all those other decks mentioned before?
I think there's a distinction between legitimate best decks (Twin, Pod, Eldrazi, BGx, etc.) and flavor of the month best decks (ETron, GDS, Storm, etc.). The latter might be the best deck at the time but is generally not bannable. Going into the PT, I thought Storm was one of the best decks but Humans is just such a neat counter to it that it didn't pan out. Thoughtseize decks also kept it down. I think people hear "best deck" and immediately assume someone wants something from it banned. That's not always the case, as these flavor of the month best decks are typically just well-positioned. Sure, there's a lot of ban mania in Modern so I hear why people think "best deck" = "ban something from this deck" when most people say it, but it could also just be an observation of deck positioning.
This is distinct from legitimate best decks like Twin, Eldrazi, Pod, Delver, etc. These decks generally do lead to bans, whether we like it or not, because they are really good, people realize it, they become too dominant, and Wizards takes action. I think Lantern is in this category because it is the deck in Modern with the best matchup spectrum. Its bad matchups are fewer and less bad than bad matchups for other decks, and it has more/higher percentage 50/50+ matchups than other top-tier decks. It's a skill-leveraging deck that allows you to normalize your bad matchups closer to 50/50 while keeping good ones higher, and that pedigree tends to get decks banned. We aren't at that point yet, to be sure, and I think there are enough internal Lantern barriers (e.g. some people find it annoying to play with) that might keep it down.
...but Sensei's Divining Top comes with its own host of issues that center around the timely conclusion of matches in a tournament setting. The necessity of repeated Top activations to play the card slows down match play and leads to tournament delays.
This does not apply to veteran Lantern players who are generally efficient with their turns. But it definitely applies to inexperienced Lantern players who have numerous activations to manage that in turn lead to tournament delays. Matches may not be concluding in a timely fashion when Lantern pilots are slowly puzzling through their lock pieces. Again, I don't think we've seen this issue yet because most Lantern players are very experienced with the deck and know shortcuts and how to quickly move through their steps. But as the deck takes off and we see more players trying it in major tournament settings, we may see worse players bog down games and lead to similar tournament delays.
I'm really not seeing it. Lantern is not a case where you can ponder 3 times per turn and have to decide your next 3 plays etc (i.e. divining top with fetches). You normally have 1-3 mill rocks out and get to chose to mill 1-3 times and then end turn. That's it. You mill once, look at the top card that changed, decide whether to mill again. Can you go in the tank for 20 minutes thinking about it? I suppose, then in comes slow play rulings right? The majority of the time the decision to mill or not is incredibly easy.
Also asked a friend who plays in a lot of GPs, he said rounds almost always go to time anyways, with an avg 15-20m wait from when time is called to the beginning of the next round (I assume most consumed by the 5 turns of various mostly non-lantern decks plus some time to process results and post pairings). So as far as I can tell, lantern is not a logistics question. Not even if we extend logistics to miscellaneous long turns, because there are really not many decisions to be made - "mill or not" is basically it, x the number of mill rocks in play. That might be complex in some situations but certainly not on average. You might as well say serum vision decks take too long because sometimes the player goes in the tank deciding what to do with the scry 2.
And while I think most would consider it unfun-to-miserable to play against, or makes for "bad TV" this is subjective and not a banlist criteria (to date). It might tip the scales if it was close but this being the sole or even primary reason for hitting it with a ban would be a new precedent. Certainly wizards can decide tis is a new reason to ban cards, but we should not expect it. So can/should the deck be hit with a ban? Not yet, no. If it starts performing at a much higher rate and either stifles diversity or creates war-of-the-sideboards then we can talk.
If/when the time comes to knock lantern down with a ban stirrings, whir, opal and bridge would all be in the conversation. Bridge would kill the deck but also remove a frustrating card from the format. Opal does splash damage to affinity. Stirrings does splash damage to tron. Whir is a pretty new card, and when we look at dredge they didn't ban prized amalgam or cathartic reunion even though those were the cards that cause the deck to cross the line so I doubt whir would be the choice.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I don't mind lantern sticking around. You can actually interact with the deck and its not super fast and needs setup. There is ample of time to win vs it. For me the boogieman of the format is tron as it is way too consistent to have turn 3 Karn any form it is ran (Eldrazi or B/G) Also sick an tired to do 10 man FNM's where 6+ are Tron decks >_>
Tron is my primary deck, and I assure you, something fishy is going on if they have t3 Karn more than maybe half of the games. T4 is pretty common, but 3 is the perfect hand.
And may I just suggest something really quick? If Tron is 60% of your meta, build Ad Nauseum and collect the prize support until they play something else.
Can you please give me the money the nto build another deck, as a student i'm happy if i can get even one deck completed. Its not easy to build decks when all your income goes to paying rent and have barely enough for food.
turn 3 tron doesn't need any god hands, the deck has enough filtering to do it reliably. last 4 fnm's there has been 2 times only when opponent didn't have turn 3 tron online.
What are you playing now? I just finished university myself a few months ago, I definitely understand not having money to build. I was just making assumptions based on your Twin comment. What are you playing now? Anything fast should have a shot, I have a mono-green Imfect player in my LGS, and I HATE that matchup, and the deck is cheap. I hate being this guy, but it just sounds a little like 'I can't or don't want to play the deck that would fix my problem, Wizards should just ban the deck I don't like'.
I don't know what to tell you as far as the T3 percentage. I play Tron WAY more than any other deck, I have a heavily customized version and I know the deck like the back of my hand. every play, every out, it is the deck I am bringing the next time there is a Modern GP nearby. So I am not saying that the Tron players are cheating per se, but if they are getting t3 Tron assembled, AND Karn in hand to cast that turn, I would give some thought to insisting on giving their deck a little shuffle yourself. Going back to the days of Twin, a deck that only needed two combo pieces as opposed to four, had excellent cantrips and general draw, and was aiming for a turn later, they didn't do it with that consistency. I can improve my rates with the right choices to keep, but even then, the most common t3 assembled Tron hand for me doesn't have a Karn. you need green mana to use any land tutor but Map, and that means that even if you have access to the cards to do it, playing a Forest sets you back a turn, and a Chromatic does frequently as well. Tron is a very good deck, but it's definitely not the most consistent combo around.
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
i play lantern and have played against it. I dont think the deck itself actually takes a lot of time usually the most important decision to make is whether or not they get to keep the card. almost every time i lose with lantern its because either I made a mistake or they got rid of a bridge, which more and more decks are starting to have main board answers for. I also dont think a deck should be banned just because its unfun to play against. I hate playing against storm, UW control, and Tron but that doesnt mean they should be kicked out of the format. If you want true misery let ponza get a good hand and watch them play the game for 10 or so minutes while you sit with 1 land.
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Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
@cfusionpn:
I've played against lantern many times and i know it's not a funny experience. I can get behind the fact that people dont want to play against it but that alone does not warrant a ban in my mind as long as it's metashare is quite low. As i said, if it keeps winning big tournaments you can always ban a card but that should be the last resort.
Wizards has shown us that they will twist and warp existing "rules," or just flat-out make up new ones in order to justify a ban.
And yes, I agree that banning should be a last resort, but WOTC is not always on the same page of what is considered reasonable for ban decisions, targets, or justifications.
Short version is it doesn't matter if the metashare is low. It doesn't matter if it's not winning "enough." None of that matters if Wizards decides it doesn't like a deck. They will find or make up a reason to justify a banning, regardless of if it fits with any previous pattern. This has happened in both Modern and Standard a number of times in just the past two years.
It is. The other 14 decks playing for the last 6 slots include Grishoalbrand, Jeskai Control, Traverse Shadow, 5c Humans, Jeskai Breach, Bogles, BR Hollow One, two Burn and BG Midrange.
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Modern:WU WU Control | WBG Abzan Company Frontier:UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
One of our own @Finalnub in the Top8 on Grishoalbrand!
Hell yeah! I was really hoping it was him and although we chatted in IMs a bit, I wasn't sure if it was him or not. I am so stoked and wish him the best in the top 8, even if it means scary times for Grishoalbrand players.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I'd hope for BBE, but not so sure about SFM based on the decks that it may slot into being "top tier."
That is of course an entirely debatable statement, and truthfully it wouldn't bother me one way or another, but with UWR / UW doing pretty well overall, I could see WotC being cautious about adding SFM into the mix.
So, the GP's top 8 looks almost entirely different from just the PT the week before. Not sure a lot of formats can claim diversity like that
It worries me so much in fact WOTC may truly not unban a single thing.
Really hoping for the BBE/SFM announcement, but it seems as though the majority of players think no bans/no unbans is the right call.
Also important to note it is entirely different from GP OKC. I do think Wizards wants to unban something, however, as suggested in their October 2017 announcement. I don't think any of the recent results undermine the three likely top candidates of BBE, SFM, and JTMS, so I don't think an unban is too improbable tomorrow even with the diversity. I'm also pretty sure they made their decision last week before the GP anyway, perhaps with a caveat in place if this GP was a disaster. I don't think any of that pushes us away from at least one unban tomorrow.
I really meant it as an either/or, although the right move is testing it with BBE first. I would, however, be incredibly excited if both were unbanned.
BBE/SFM=Super happy
No changes=dissapointment
Jace unban=Furious, and knowing I'd need to cough up the money for a playset
So, the GP's top 8 looks almost entirely different from just the PT the week before. Not sure a lot of formats can claim diversity like that
It worries me so much in fact WOTC may truly not unban a single thing.
Really hoping for the BBE/SFM announcement, but it seems as though the majority of players think no bans/no unbans is the right call.
They typically unban during healthy metas, not when something is "needed."
What is this statement based on? Except for Valakut, every previous unban happened at the same time as a ban, so we can't really call those metas "healthy," at least in their viewpoint. Granted, the bans had the hope of making it healthy again, but the metagame prior to the banning/unbanning was not considered healthy.
They may change things and be willing to unban outside of those situations, and I hope they do (there is one precedent for it with Valakut, at least) but I'm confused where the claim that they typically unban during healthy metas comes from.
Spirits
Well put. "The novelty runs out when you actually have to play against it yourself." Yep.
Also, people have noticed the bump in the power level of the deck with its tutor, Whir of Invention.
I think some comparisons can be given to Lantern before Whir of Invention and Dredge (with Prized Amalgam and Insolent Neonate) before Cathartic Reunion. The main difference is that those cards all came out so close in succession that maybe people didn't know how to analyze what is the main issue with Dredge. I personally believed it was Cathartic Reunion that pushed it over, but the ban choice actually allowed Dredge to survive, but just a notch below what it previously was.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I think there's a distinction between legitimate best decks (Twin, Pod, Eldrazi, BGx, etc.) and flavor of the month best decks (ETron, GDS, Storm, etc.). The latter might be the best deck at the time but is generally not bannable. Going into the PT, I thought Storm was one of the best decks but Humans is just such a neat counter to it that it didn't pan out. Thoughtseize decks also kept it down. I think people hear "best deck" and immediately assume someone wants something from it banned. That's not always the case, as these flavor of the month best decks are typically just well-positioned. Sure, there's a lot of ban mania in Modern so I hear why people think "best deck" = "ban something from this deck" when most people say it, but it could also just be an observation of deck positioning.
This is distinct from legitimate best decks like Twin, Eldrazi, Pod, Delver, etc. These decks generally do lead to bans, whether we like it or not, because they are really good, people realize it, they become too dominant, and Wizards takes action. I think Lantern is in this category because it is the deck in Modern with the best matchup spectrum. Its bad matchups are fewer and less bad than bad matchups for other decks, and it has more/higher percentage 50/50+ matchups than other top-tier decks. It's a skill-leveraging deck that allows you to normalize your bad matchups closer to 50/50 while keeping good ones higher, and that pedigree tends to get decks banned. We aren't at that point yet, to be sure, and I think there are enough internal Lantern barriers (e.g. some people find it annoying to play with) that might keep it down.
I'm really not seeing it. Lantern is not a case where you can ponder 3 times per turn and have to decide your next 3 plays etc (i.e. divining top with fetches). You normally have 1-3 mill rocks out and get to chose to mill 1-3 times and then end turn. That's it. You mill once, look at the top card that changed, decide whether to mill again. Can you go in the tank for 20 minutes thinking about it? I suppose, then in comes slow play rulings right? The majority of the time the decision to mill or not is incredibly easy.
Also asked a friend who plays in a lot of GPs, he said rounds almost always go to time anyways, with an avg 15-20m wait from when time is called to the beginning of the next round (I assume most consumed by the 5 turns of various mostly non-lantern decks plus some time to process results and post pairings). So as far as I can tell, lantern is not a logistics question. Not even if we extend logistics to miscellaneous long turns, because there are really not many decisions to be made - "mill or not" is basically it, x the number of mill rocks in play. That might be complex in some situations but certainly not on average. You might as well say serum vision decks take too long because sometimes the player goes in the tank deciding what to do with the scry 2.
And while I think most would consider it unfun-to-miserable to play against, or makes for "bad TV" this is subjective and not a banlist criteria (to date). It might tip the scales if it was close but this being the sole or even primary reason for hitting it with a ban would be a new precedent. Certainly wizards can decide tis is a new reason to ban cards, but we should not expect it. So can/should the deck be hit with a ban? Not yet, no. If it starts performing at a much higher rate and either stifles diversity or creates war-of-the-sideboards then we can talk.
If/when the time comes to knock lantern down with a ban stirrings, whir, opal and bridge would all be in the conversation. Bridge would kill the deck but also remove a frustrating card from the format. Opal does splash damage to affinity. Stirrings does splash damage to tron. Whir is a pretty new card, and when we look at dredge they didn't ban prized amalgam or cathartic reunion even though those were the cards that cause the deck to cross the line so I doubt whir would be the choice.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
What are you playing now? I just finished university myself a few months ago, I definitely understand not having money to build. I was just making assumptions based on your Twin comment. What are you playing now? Anything fast should have a shot, I have a mono-green Imfect player in my LGS, and I HATE that matchup, and the deck is cheap. I hate being this guy, but it just sounds a little like 'I can't or don't want to play the deck that would fix my problem, Wizards should just ban the deck I don't like'.
I don't know what to tell you as far as the T3 percentage. I play Tron WAY more than any other deck, I have a heavily customized version and I know the deck like the back of my hand. every play, every out, it is the deck I am bringing the next time there is a Modern GP nearby. So I am not saying that the Tron players are cheating per se, but if they are getting t3 Tron assembled, AND Karn in hand to cast that turn, I would give some thought to insisting on giving their deck a little shuffle yourself. Going back to the days of Twin, a deck that only needed two combo pieces as opposed to four, had excellent cantrips and general draw, and was aiming for a turn later, they didn't do it with that consistency. I can improve my rates with the right choices to keep, but even then, the most common t3 assembled Tron hand for me doesn't have a Karn. you need green mana to use any land tutor but Map, and that means that even if you have access to the cards to do it, playing a Forest sets you back a turn, and a Chromatic does frequently as well. Tron is a very good deck, but it's definitely not the most consistent combo around.
Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
Wizards has shown us that they will twist and warp existing "rules," or just flat-out make up new ones in order to justify a ban.
And yes, I agree that banning should be a last resort, but WOTC is not always on the same page of what is considered reasonable for ban decisions, targets, or justifications.
Short version is it doesn't matter if the metashare is low. It doesn't matter if it's not winning "enough." None of that matters if Wizards decides it doesn't like a deck. They will find or make up a reason to justify a banning, regardless of if it fits with any previous pattern. This has happened in both Modern and Standard a number of times in just the past two years.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Spirits
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
Spirits
Legacy: UWR Miracles [https://deckstats.net/decks/44442/1092831-uwr-miracles-2]
Spirits
Hell yeah! I was really hoping it was him and although we chatted in IMs a bit, I wasn't sure if it was him or not. I am so stoked and wish him the best in the top 8, even if it means scary times for Grishoalbrand players.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)It worries me so much in fact WOTC may truly not unban a single thing.
Really hoping for the BBE/SFM announcement, but it seems as though the majority of players think no bans/no unbans is the right call.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
That is of course an entirely debatable statement, and truthfully it wouldn't bother me one way or another, but with UWR / UW doing pretty well overall, I could see WotC being cautious about adding SFM into the mix.
Also important to note it is entirely different from GP OKC. I do think Wizards wants to unban something, however, as suggested in their October 2017 announcement. I don't think any of the recent results undermine the three likely top candidates of BBE, SFM, and JTMS, so I don't think an unban is too improbable tomorrow even with the diversity. I'm also pretty sure they made their decision last week before the GP anyway, perhaps with a caveat in place if this GP was a disaster. I don't think any of that pushes us away from at least one unban tomorrow.
BBE/SFM=Super happy
No changes=dissapointment
Jace unban=Furious, and knowing I'd need to cough up the money for a playset
Spirits
They may change things and be willing to unban outside of those situations, and I hope they do (there is one precedent for it with Valakut, at least) but I'm confused where the claim that they typically unban during healthy metas comes from.
Spirits
If "diversity" means 6 linear aggro/combo decks, and then Jeskai and Death's Shadow, then the top 8 is super diverse.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Aggro, combo, control, Midrange. Seems fairly diverse.