There exist a countless amount of articles or primer that keep recommending this card, selling this card as being the pinnacle of card advantage, spreading lies about it ever flipping. Let's be honest and consider how many cards currently being played in modern could potentially kill this card leaving you with a worst kitchen finks.
These cards, with the exception of Tarfire, are all commonly played in multiple copies in the same decks. I left out most destroy spells that deal with most creature like path and doom blade effects. Every top deck as ways of dealing with this card and it should never flip even if they don't have the removal or counter to spend by simply playing a Grizzly Bearsto chump block the non-hasty threat.
We could easily compare this card to Pia and Kiran Nalaarwhich has a pretty similar effect and could be played it the same decks that would run Huntmaster. While Pia and Kiran Nalaar might die to the same removal they bring 2 flying 1/1 that serve a purpose to defend against Affinity threats and deal with 1 activation of Lingering Soul. As a 1 - of in the main it's decent.
I've seen some list talking non-sense about running 4 Huntmaster of the fells as their main wincon, Reid Duke all over this card with every chance he gets to build a GR deck.
This reminds me of something funny. I used to play UW Delver in Standard. I was super biased because I played a deck that I honestly believe was better than Tier 1 or in a Tier of its own. It just was too powerful of a deck, having 3 50/50 matchups at worst and better than 50% vs. the rest of the field. I personally thought Huntmaster of the Fells was trash. I felt that I would never have to use the card.
Then I scooped in the finals of an SCG Invitational Qualifier, but took the total prizes instead (probably a poor decision). I used the store credit to "buy" 4 Huntmaster of the Fells at its spiked price of $12 each. The card went to over $25 at one time!
The card has never been super good for me, but when someone has one and has good control over it while the opponent durdles, it just wreaks HAVOC. Nowadays in Modern, with Bloodbraid Elf being unbanned and decks not durdling much, it probably has fallen to a 2 on a scale of 1-10 in power level. The card is nearly obsolete now, although I could see playing it in a heavy Burn meta in Ponza - a place where I personally liked it in the past. Never underestimate a card. That's when it gets ya!
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
With the addition of Bloodbraid Elf I think this card no longer as it's place since it does a similar job depending on the decklist. I do agree that if you have control over the game you should be able to wreak havoc with Huntmaster but if you are ever in control of the game you could even win with a Snapcaster Mage.
It's just hard for me when I look at all these deck techs (mostly Temur) and Huntmaster is always there either in the main or side.
You're evaluating a card in the absolute worst case scenario and applying it accross the board. You're thinking you expend four mana for a grizzly bear every time...the reality is you've picked out a kill spell and got a grizzled bear in the worst case scenario you presented. It's always putting you up on battlefield presence while remaining at card parity if it hits the board. From there, everything else is just extra.
Like BBE, what makes it so busted isn't 3 hasty power on t2/3/4 (depending on how you build a deck for it) but that it just always puts you up a card...every time. It's not elvish visonary where you draw into a land, you draw into something relevant that you can always play unless there is a tax or you need targets and it just nukes your board. To further compound the issue with BBE is that cascade resolves separate from the elf, so counters have to worry about two threats.
Don't think of huntmaster as a way to immediately turn the corner and just alike a game like scapeshift, think of him as just a good card that always generates advantage if he resolves. As for why you see him over pia and kiran, it's probably because red is the terriatry color for decks like jund. When you want t1 black for discard/push, t2 green for goyf/acooze/decay, T3 double black for either 3 cmc lili, and t4 double red? That's a very specific mana base. Toss in man lands and it's a whole different set of woes because you're off curve. Huntmaster just requires one of those 4 make red, instead of two.
I agree BBE is more impactful most of the time, but there are corner cases (like burn) where huntmaster shines. Or if you can control the flip to burn a combo piece off the table, like against devoted Druid combo decks and leave mana up for instant speed interaction.
Card is great. I think it's propped up by its past a bit sure, but the card is great. I also think kalitas is great, but just requires a specific meta like huntmaster.
With all that was said I do agree that it might flip if it gets one turn to survive and only 1 flip would actually be worth it.
It did help me see how the card could potentially be played it a deck with more interaction like jund or even some temur deck to an extent without bbe unbanned.
First of all, let's talk about what sort of shell you're putting them in. That is something that matters a lot, especially for a card as finicky as Huntmaster of the Fells.
In 90% of shells, BBE is just more efficient- not necessarily better, though. BBE needs little support to just be a 2-for-1, and whack your opponent. If you're playing generally good spells, then you're probably getting more than a 2-for-1 out of the deal. However, BBE has some very notable weaknesses- it trades poorly into Lingering Souls and similar effects- especially if there's anthems or buffs kicking around. It doesn't work well with most dedicated counterspells of 3cmc or less. If you have any sort of reactionary cards, BBE is awful. If you want to mainly play at instant speed, BBE isn't good.
Huntmaster is a card that needs lots of instants to function properly, cantrips and counterspells are usually the best choice. Huntmaster will demolish token decks. Huntmaster needs to stick around for you to get value out of them, where as BBE doesn't. Huntmaster kills much quicker than BBE- 3 or 4 turns as opposed to 6 or 7.
A resolved huntmaster is capable of taking over a game. It's pretty objectively a powerful card. The problem is that it needs a ton of support to work- similar to Monastery Mentor. BBE needs no support at all to work. You can jam it into any GRx deck, and BBE will provide value. Huntmaster just doesn't work in certain strategies at all. Ultimately, its home is in RUG as a value finisher. Lots of protection for the Huntmaster, Sncapcasters are amazing with Huntmaster, lots of card draw. RUG is in the same hole Sultai is in; it doesn't have a unique identity.
Thus, I tend to fall into camp of it being a great card for a deck that doesn't have much good support.
Something I haven't really seen discussed here is how good against Huntmaster is against disruptive creature decks like Humans or DnT.
Since they are usually very removal light it's way easier to stick it and it just rips those decks apart. It's the perfect stabilizer after they slowed your interaction down with Thalia and other stuff.
It's also just an overall very versatile card, being great against mentioned disruptive creature decks and solid against grindy decks as well as Burn. Heck I've won games against Lantern with it where he got in for the final 2-4 damage by flipping back and forth.
All that said I agree with everyone that his time in Jund since BBE got unleashed again.
His home is in RUG (where BBE doesn't fit since it nonboes with counterspells). He got company in Jace now in those colors, but I think those two 4-drops are so different that both with have their merit based on the meta and playstyle of the deck.
Human is a tad overpowered, while they don't have straight removal spells but they do have reflector mage, meddling mage with Dismember and Mirran Crusader in the side.
-
On temur and sultai, I feel the main reason it's hard to find a proper deck to run these colors is mainly from the conflicting roles blue brings, GR can ramp and go big but then most modern counterspell are bad late game or you could do better with destroy effect. Similar to BG where the game plan is mostly disruptive while protecting a card with discard spells and destroy spells rendering counterspell useless. The main thing that Blue brings is Counter or Draw and not much else, BG already have Dark Confidant while GR could simply run Harmonize in the late game grind.
If we look back into Temur we can quickly realize that Red want a quick game,Blue want a long one and Green is just there ramping like a mindless fool (also dropping tarmogoyf from time to time), in my opinion Twin was the best Temur deck, scapeshift is also pretty decent I simply hate it.
Sultai is Green doing the killing, Black destroying and disrupting with discard and Blue making is best impression of doing something holding up that remand until turn 18.
It's so recent that I might have seen outdated list, but I do still see player running Huntmaster of the Fell in recent Temur List.Might simply take sometime to adjust, but in conclusion Huntmaster of the fell is the closest replacement to Bloodbraid Elf but it can also be played in a control list for late game pay off.
It truly is only a sideboard card but it can be ridiculously effective in the right matchups. Against decks like humans, merfolk, eldrazi that are creature centric but lite in removal, Huntmaster comes down after your primary threats have already taxed opposing removal spells and the lifegain + blocker will always be relevant. These strategies play out their hands quickly making multiple flips quite easy to pull off at the stage of the game you want to deploy Huntmaster anyways. Lifegain and removal is great value, but once he flips having a 4/4 trampler, at least one 2/2, and 2 direct damage is a wonderful late game surge of aggression in one card. The fact that it doubles as a tool to fight off removal heavy midrange and control decks is not necessarily where it shines but makes its applications as a sideboard card much greater as it impacts many more matchups than other possible.
I will point out it is particularly good against both BBE, Jace, and humans. That's pretty broad coverage.
Against BBE, if they flip Lilliana you sac the token, let huntmaster flip on your following turn to kill both the elf and Lilliana leaving you with a 4/4 with upside and then nothing. If they hit other removal both players trade 4 mana and a card, assuming you block the elf with the wolf.
It leaves jace stranded in hand until they can answer huntmaster, as bouncing either him or the wolf leaves the Jace dying right away.
It's not ever going to be amazing in modern because it's a 4 drop but it's a good card that has its roles.
"Dies to Removal" is a tricky argument to get behind as to why a card is good or bad. There are at least 3 things to consider when trying to make that argument.
1. Was the card impactful before it died?
2. Is the deck capable of stripping/nullifying removal?
3. Does the deck run a number of threats that strains or overmatches the opponent's removal?
Huntmaster usually fulfills 2 of those 3 things. If he hits the battlefield, he fulfills 1 immediately by providing a second body along with him. Now the opponent needs 2 removal spells to cleanly deal with your 1 card.
In Jund, Huntmaster fulfills the second item because you will often either tax your opponent's removal or force them to discard it to a point where Huntmaster will stick.
In other lists, Huntmaster can easily fulfill the third option. Zoo or Humans lists can over-burden the opponent's removal to the point that by turn 4+ they need to top-deck into it in order to deal with threats that the opponent keeps top-decking.
So even though the card itself easily dies to a lot of removal that exists in the format, you need to remember that everything is contextual and Huntmaster's context usually wins.
If you're playing counterspells or other situational cards, Huntmaster can be better than BBE. I can see it having a use in RUG control/tempo lists. But in most other decks BBE is better since anything you can cascade into is useful at most times.
none of those cards you listed deal with huntmaster. You bolt the huntmaster, and the opponent is left with a 2/2 still and +2 life. Neither of those are insignificant in modern, when most resources are a 1-for-1 trade.
Huntmaster is by no means considered an automatic 4-of in any deck that would use it; but it is certainly a very good value creature. the 4-drop slot has several viable and justifiable options to use based on player preferences and the current state of the meta. Huntmaster will never be considered a "bad" card; it can be outclassed by other 4-drops though.
I think the conclusion I come to (and what everybody here is basically saying) is that while you're right, there are better cards for the worst case scenario, Huntmasters top end is much higher than the other cards it can be compared to. Finks usually won't take over an entire game. BBE is a gamble. Huntmaster resolves and says "answer me or I will wreak havoc".
I think Hunmaster is the best against GW hatebears.
-kitchen finks is worse against path to exile.
-BBE you need to have 5 mana up if the opponent has Thalia on the battlefield and the elf cascades into a non creature spell.
-they don’t run that much removal, so Huntmaster can take over. The wolf token can trade with one of their bears, and the 2 life can buy you time. Then Huntmaster starts flipping and it’s game. With Pia and Kiran Nalaar you might need to use both thopters to trade with a bear.
I don’t run any Huntmaster in my Jund list, but I may in the future. I’ve also played against RG Blood Moon decks that run kitchen finks and Huntmaster and that deck can be a pain to play against.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Huntmaster was great in the Jund era as games were value midrange battles, nowadays it's too slow to have any impact on the game and the unban of BBE has given RG players a more interesting 4 drop that is able to do more busted things so no, I am not changing your mind but be aware that it could become useful again if the required conditions meet (not something I am expecting to happen)
I play Huntmaster of the Fells out of the sideboard in my RGx Assault Loam decks as a way to gain advantage against grindy decks that are attacking my graveyard. In those grindy matchups, it is very easy to land a Huntmaster on a cluttered board and just go to value town against some decks, gaining life, making tokens, killing my opp's dorks while dealing them damage. That being said, I don't think it is necessarily a 4-of card to have in your maindeck, but I can definitely see it as a 1-of in Ponza or other fringe RG decks to gain value over time.
Huntmaster of the Fells will have a place in some type of Midranged RUG deck that also uses Counter Magic with CMC 4 and Under. Unfortunately those decks don't currently exist in the competitive sense.
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There exist a countless amount of articles or primer that keep recommending this card, selling this card as being the pinnacle of card advantage, spreading lies about it ever flipping. Let's be honest and consider how many cards currently being played in modern could potentially kill this card leaving you with a worst kitchen finks.
1 Fatal Push
1 Dismember
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Collective Brutality
1 Spatial Contorsion
1 Walking Ballista
1 Izzet Charm
1 Electrolyze
1 Tarfire
These cards, with the exception of Tarfire, are all commonly played in multiple copies in the same decks. I left out most destroy spells that deal with most creature like path and doom blade effects. Every top deck as ways of dealing with this card and it should never flip even if they don't have the removal or counter to spend by simply playing a Grizzly Bearsto chump block the non-hasty threat.
We could easily compare this card to Pia and Kiran Nalaarwhich has a pretty similar effect and could be played it the same decks that would run Huntmaster. While Pia and Kiran Nalaar might die to the same removal they bring 2 flying 1/1 that serve a purpose to defend against Affinity threats and deal with 1 activation of Lingering Soul. As a 1 - of in the main it's decent.
I've seen some list talking non-sense about running 4 Huntmaster of the fells as their main wincon, Reid Duke all over this card with every chance he gets to build a GR deck.
Running 3 Kitchen Finks + 1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar would simply outclass 4 Huntmaster of the Fells any day.
Tell me why I'm wrong and change my mind about this card.I just want to point out that I'm a Temur player and I just don't see any value in this card.
Then I scooped in the finals of an SCG Invitational Qualifier, but took the total prizes instead (probably a poor decision). I used the store credit to "buy" 4 Huntmaster of the Fells at its spiked price of $12 each. The card went to over $25 at one time!
The card has never been super good for me, but when someone has one and has good control over it while the opponent durdles, it just wreaks HAVOC. Nowadays in Modern, with Bloodbraid Elf being unbanned and decks not durdling much, it probably has fallen to a 2 on a scale of 1-10 in power level. The card is nearly obsolete now, although I could see playing it in a heavy Burn meta in Ponza - a place where I personally liked it in the past. Never underestimate a card. That's when it gets ya!
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)It's just hard for me when I look at all these deck techs (mostly Temur) and Huntmaster is always there either in the main or side.
bbe outclasses it, but i expect huntmaster to pop up from time to time in lists as a spicy one-of.
huntmaster always reminds me of Olivia Voldaren. that card was terrifying to play against.
kalitas is silently weeping in a corner somewhere
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)In Modern, that's often good enough.
Once you start being able to flip it, things get even more insane.
Like BBE, what makes it so busted isn't 3 hasty power on t2/3/4 (depending on how you build a deck for it) but that it just always puts you up a card...every time. It's not elvish visonary where you draw into a land, you draw into something relevant that you can always play unless there is a tax or you need targets and it just nukes your board. To further compound the issue with BBE is that cascade resolves separate from the elf, so counters have to worry about two threats.
Don't think of huntmaster as a way to immediately turn the corner and just alike a game like scapeshift, think of him as just a good card that always generates advantage if he resolves. As for why you see him over pia and kiran, it's probably because red is the terriatry color for decks like jund. When you want t1 black for discard/push, t2 green for goyf/acooze/decay, T3 double black for either 3 cmc lili, and t4 double red? That's a very specific mana base. Toss in man lands and it's a whole different set of woes because you're off curve. Huntmaster just requires one of those 4 make red, instead of two.
I agree BBE is more impactful most of the time, but there are corner cases (like burn) where huntmaster shines. Or if you can control the flip to burn a combo piece off the table, like against devoted Druid combo decks and leave mana up for instant speed interaction.
Card is great. I think it's propped up by its past a bit sure, but the card is great. I also think kalitas is great, but just requires a specific meta like huntmaster.
It did help me see how the card could potentially be played it a deck with more interaction like jund or even some temur deck to an extent without bbe unbanned.
In 90% of shells, BBE is just more efficient- not necessarily better, though. BBE needs little support to just be a 2-for-1, and whack your opponent. If you're playing generally good spells, then you're probably getting more than a 2-for-1 out of the deal. However, BBE has some very notable weaknesses- it trades poorly into Lingering Souls and similar effects- especially if there's anthems or buffs kicking around. It doesn't work well with most dedicated counterspells of 3cmc or less. If you have any sort of reactionary cards, BBE is awful. If you want to mainly play at instant speed, BBE isn't good.
Huntmaster is a card that needs lots of instants to function properly, cantrips and counterspells are usually the best choice. Huntmaster will demolish token decks. Huntmaster needs to stick around for you to get value out of them, where as BBE doesn't. Huntmaster kills much quicker than BBE- 3 or 4 turns as opposed to 6 or 7.
A resolved huntmaster is capable of taking over a game. It's pretty objectively a powerful card. The problem is that it needs a ton of support to work- similar to Monastery Mentor. BBE needs no support at all to work. You can jam it into any GRx deck, and BBE will provide value. Huntmaster just doesn't work in certain strategies at all. Ultimately, its home is in RUG as a value finisher. Lots of protection for the Huntmaster, Sncapcasters are amazing with Huntmaster, lots of card draw. RUG is in the same hole Sultai is in; it doesn't have a unique identity.
Thus, I tend to fall into camp of it being a great card for a deck that doesn't have much good support.
Since they are usually very removal light it's way easier to stick it and it just rips those decks apart. It's the perfect stabilizer after they slowed your interaction down with Thalia and other stuff.
It's also just an overall very versatile card, being great against mentioned disruptive creature decks and solid against grindy decks as well as Burn. Heck I've won games against Lantern with it where he got in for the final 2-4 damage by flipping back and forth.
All that said I agree with everyone that his time in Jund since BBE got unleashed again.
His home is in RUG (where BBE doesn't fit since it nonboes with counterspells). He got company in Jace now in those colors, but I think those two 4-drops are so different that both with have their merit based on the meta and playstyle of the deck.
-
On temur and sultai, I feel the main reason it's hard to find a proper deck to run these colors is mainly from the conflicting roles blue brings, GR can ramp and go big but then most modern counterspell are bad late game or you could do better with destroy effect. Similar to BG where the game plan is mostly disruptive while protecting a card with discard spells and destroy spells rendering counterspell useless. The main thing that Blue brings is Counter or Draw and not much else, BG already have Dark Confidant while GR could simply run Harmonize in the late game grind.
If we look back into Temur we can quickly realize that Red want a quick game,Blue want a long one and Green is just there ramping like a mindless fool (also dropping tarmogoyf from time to time), in my opinion Twin was the best Temur deck, scapeshift is also pretty decent I simply hate it.
Sultai is Green doing the killing, Black destroying and disrupting with discard and Blue making is best impression of doing something holding up that remand until turn 18.
I will point out it is particularly good against both BBE, Jace, and humans. That's pretty broad coverage.
Against BBE, if they flip Lilliana you sac the token, let huntmaster flip on your following turn to kill both the elf and Lilliana leaving you with a 4/4 with upside and then nothing. If they hit other removal both players trade 4 mana and a card, assuming you block the elf with the wolf.
It leaves jace stranded in hand until they can answer huntmaster, as bouncing either him or the wolf leaves the Jace dying right away.
It's not ever going to be amazing in modern because it's a 4 drop but it's a good card that has its roles.
1. Was the card impactful before it died?
2. Is the deck capable of stripping/nullifying removal?
3. Does the deck run a number of threats that strains or overmatches the opponent's removal?
Huntmaster usually fulfills 2 of those 3 things. If he hits the battlefield, he fulfills 1 immediately by providing a second body along with him. Now the opponent needs 2 removal spells to cleanly deal with your 1 card.
In Jund, Huntmaster fulfills the second item because you will often either tax your opponent's removal or force them to discard it to a point where Huntmaster will stick.
In other lists, Huntmaster can easily fulfill the third option. Zoo or Humans lists can over-burden the opponent's removal to the point that by turn 4+ they need to top-deck into it in order to deal with threats that the opponent keeps top-decking.
So even though the card itself easily dies to a lot of removal that exists in the format, you need to remember that everything is contextual and Huntmaster's context usually wins.
All that said, BBE is better.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
It is really depend on your deck.
R/G Ponza, Kia and Kiran Nalaar is better due to its ability to sac artifact and hit opponents, and flying blockers!
Jund, obviously BBE outclassed this card.
So the only choice for this card to stay in a deck is probably Temur decks.
EDH: Xenagos, God of Revels.
Huntmaster is by no means considered an automatic 4-of in any deck that would use it; but it is certainly a very good value creature. the 4-drop slot has several viable and justifiable options to use based on player preferences and the current state of the meta. Huntmaster will never be considered a "bad" card; it can be outclassed by other 4-drops though.
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
-kitchen finks is worse against path to exile.
-BBE you need to have 5 mana up if the opponent has Thalia on the battlefield and the elf cascades into a non creature spell.
-they don’t run that much removal, so Huntmaster can take over. The wolf token can trade with one of their bears, and the 2 life can buy you time. Then Huntmaster starts flipping and it’s game. With Pia and Kiran Nalaar you might need to use both thopters to trade with a bear.
I don’t run any Huntmaster in my Jund list, but I may in the future. I’ve also played against RG Blood Moon decks that run kitchen finks and Huntmaster and that deck can be a pain to play against.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB