Blue is not oppressed, nor was it oppressive in Modern.
Blue was never oppressive? What about the Treasure Cruise era?
I mean, sure, that era ended pretty quickly, but it still happened.
UR Delver was a great deck and people like Shenhar playing TC in their burn deck was just silly (and bad), but it wasn't even the best deck in that era. Rhino Pod was. Granted, oppressive doesn't necessarily mean Tier 0 deck. Semantics....
Anyways. Briefing is an interesting card. It probably fits better into UW miracles, but it works well with delve cards too. Also, it's pretty nice value with Snapcaster late game. Fixes top of your deck and you recast a removal/counter. Solid 1-2 of. Definitely want to be playing more blue sources and 1-2 CMC cards if you're going to play 5 or 6 Snap effects. Thought Scour gets better as does Search (since this helps Search flip and you can find it off of Search).
Also, is anyone disappointed that there isn't a Charm or a Command cycle yet? It's so weird seeing a Selesnya creature getting the modal treatment rather than spells/other guilds.
We don't have the counterspells you guys are asking for because, as I keep asking, why do we need them?
By that logic, why do we need any new cards? Just stop making new sets, everything now is just reprints, no new cards ever again. It's not about needing anything. Grixis decks don't need Countersquall, it's just another option they have available. It's about having those options, maybe side-grades that become available when you're in a specific 2 color pair. It's interesting and fun.
With the current tools, everyone seems to agree, UW control is in a good spot. It's posting great results and empirical data indicate it has a fighting chance against nearly every other deck in the current meta.
So, can you tell me, from a truly objective standpoint, not a, "I wish I had ..." standpoint, that another counterspell is going to make your UW, UR, or Ux deck any better than it currently is? OR is the true issue why your Ux deck is not performing because you've either tried to smash cards that just don't work into a deck and/or are missing one or two tools that would make the deck viable?
Based on the UW control results being posted, I don't think anyone can honestly say that another counterspell is needed, at this time.
Again, this is not about any blue deck needing help (although let's be honest, Simic does). This is not about making them better. It's about WotC not printing anything playable in that design space. Think of all the playable removal spells they've printed recently. Push, Cast Down, Trophy, Abrade, Collective Brutality, Blessed Alliance, K Command, Spatial Contortion. I can't even count all the playable creatures they've printed recently. We get a playable Planeswalker like every other set. But only three counters that see play in the past 10 years. I know I keep bringing up the same example, but is Countersquall a game-breaking upgrade over Negate for UBx decks? No, it's really not. It has a small bonus in exchange for being harder to cast. Why can't we get similar things in other color combinations? Again, it's not about making blue control of any color combination better, it's just about having different options. Do I want to go base UW for the negate variant that gains me 2 life, or UR for the negate variant that shocks a creature, or UB for the negate variant that shocks my opponent, and so on. What about Essence Scatter? Essence Scatter is completely unplayable in Modern, but maybe playing around with color requirements in the casting costs for small bonuses could produce something with some application in Modern. It just feels like they're not even trying to make interesting counters that are on a fine power level anymore. They only play around in the 3 cmc counter area, and even though this new one is probably the best Cancel variant they've ever printed, it will see 0 play because a 3 cmc counter is too expensive in Modern unless it's doing something way more powerful than WotC would probably ever print into Standard.
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It would drive out entirely all of the interesting "unfair" decks I enjoy playing with, as it would be the best "unfair" deck. Why play Quest Combo or Belcher EVER if Twin exists?
Twin changes nothing for decks like that, they're already unplayable from a competitive standpoint. Adding Twin to the format can't make a deck that's already unplayable even less playable. What Twin does do is make top tier uninteractive linear decks less desirable to play, and interactive decks more desirable. If you had a player on the fence between playing Hollow One or GBx for a tournament, he might land on Hollow One without Twin in the format, but maybe he plays GBx instead if Twin is legal. You can still play Hollow One in the Twin format if you want, but maybe they start running some of their sideboard interaction in the main to hedge against Twin game 1. Or maybe you just stay focused and linear and hope to dodge Twin. It makes those decks less desirable, but not unplayable.
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Most decks cannot handle counter magic, because you either bring some yourself, or you run discard which isnt big in the meta currently.
And the decks that do come prepared with that interaction are so much harder for UW. Decks like UR Wizards and Spirits really give us problems. Decks just trying to linear might win before we can stabilize, but they also might just lose to a miracle Terminus on like turn 3.
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I think what Cfusionpm's complaint really comes down to is that WotC isn't playing in the space that might produce Modern playable counterspells. They're being too conservative with that particular kind of interaction. I don't think they're willing to print a 3 cmc counterspell with enough upside to make it Modern playable. A 3 cmc counter would need to have significant upside to see play. The window of Modern playability is in 2 cmc counters with downside, or 1 cmc counters that are narrow, and they rarely tread in this territory. Ceremonious Rejection was a great printing. It did practically nothing in Standard, and it's nothing more than a sideboard card, although a nice one, in Modern. Other than that, when was the last time they designed a Modern playable counterspell? Disdainful Stroke and Stubborn Denial back in Khan's block, like 4 years ago? And thank God we got those two, because before that it was Spell Pierce and Countersquall, back in 2009!!
They've designed THREE Modern playable counter spells in almost 10 years. That's just being lazy and not exploring that design space enough. Here's an idea: UW: Counter target noncreature spell, you gain 2 life. There, in 5 seconds I thought up a Negate variant that would probably be playable in Modern and is absolutely fine from a power level standpoint. Why can't they play with different effects and casting costs like this instead of printing Negate in every set? That is the argument here about counterspells. It's not that people want something crazy busted, we just want something playable, and it's so rare for WotC to get adventurous enough to design something like that.
You are not wrong about what you say, but this is an issue not confined to counterspells. Despite Fatal Push, how much good single target removal that actually stuck in modern has been printed? Bolt, path, helix, these are still by far the old as time format staples. Abrupt Decay? 2012 and barely a two-of in the few decks that play it maindeck. The removal department does not even get boring reprints, standard mostly keeps pumping out simply worse versions of the existing. Anti lifegain? Manlands? Green walkers or dimir cards that are not straight up garbage? I bet there are endless categories that have had unused design space in the last years.
Does that mean we do not have enough removal or manlands? Of course not. As I said, Bolt Snap Bolt is a tough cookie and printing stuff thats better or the same with a different name would result in a significant power shift. Same for Negate. It might not be as flashy as some new UR hotness, but it is a solid and playable card that gets the job done. Despite getting almost nothing new in the counter department, UW control has ascended to T1.
So if the argument is (as you claim) not about power, not about some tool-gap that has to be filled, not about some treatment unique to countermagic, what is it really about? Nothing but artistic expression or lack thereof on the side of wizards? Given the vitriol and conspiracy theories brought up in support of this argument, I do not buy that for a second.
No attack on you personally, maybe you really just want to critizise the lazyness of wizard's design department (which I would fully agree with), but there is more to this side of the debate overall.
Youcant compare the lack of counterspells to the lack of removal. There has been alot of removal printed in abrupt decay, terminate, dread bore, fatal push, now assassins trophy, heroes downfall, murderous cut
The amount of playable removal that has been printed completely blows the amount of playable counterspells out of the water. Completely incomparable.
The point is neglect isnt seen anywhere else except in the design of counterspells.
It's not blue, it's twin. These two guys want to play twin and claim that's because it is a fair deck. NEWS FLASH! Twin isn't ******* fair. It's a combo deck with enough free slots due to being a two card infinite combo that it can add a bunch of counters. If storm didn't need cost reducing creatures and instead could run mana leaks and dispels, that is the best comparison to twin. Period. It is, in reality, so broken that it doesn't even eat up a ton of space in the deck to run its combo.
It would drive out entirely all of the interesting "unfair" decks I enjoy playing with, as it would be the best "unfair" deck. Why play Quest Combo or Belcher EVER if Twin exists?
Twin changes nothing for decks like that, they're already unplayable from a competitive standpoint. Adding Twin to the format can't make a deck that's already unplayable even less playable. What Twin does do is make top tier uninteractive linear decks less desirable to play, and interactive decks more desirable. If you had a player on the fence between playing Hollow One or GBx for a tournament, he might land on Hollow One without Twin in the format, but maybe he plays GBx instead if Twin is legal. You can still play Hollow One in the Twin format if you want, but maybe they start running some of their sideboard interaction in the main to hedge against Twin game 1. Or maybe you just stay focused and linear and hope to dodge Twin. It makes those decks less desirable, but not unplayable.
The dream of the Brewer is that no one has tuned those decks correctly so that they ARE playable from a competitive standpoint. I've been testing the Belcher variant that one guy posted on Reddit, saying he's 20-4 in matches this past month, and it's pretty dang good. Gkouru is pretty spot-on, though, in saying that Humans is the new "fair" Twin by making these decks very difficult to play with Meddling Mage and Freebooter forcing you to interact or get trampled to death. They just don't have a 2-card "I win" button that makes them a better version of Belcher; instead, they police the format and cleanup a lot of the silly, degenerate decks a bit more while not being the best degenerate deck. I much prefer things this way, personally.
With Twin in the format, why would I even brew degenerate decks at all? Does it matter if I brew up the next Cheeri0s deck? No, because it'll still never be better than Twin.
Agreed. Humans is a great police deck and rather have that over twin any day. The only problem with humans is that it's overall powerlevel is pretty high and being a disruptive aggro deck, it's weaknesses are hardly present. But with the returning and rise of WU, the meta is in an overall better spot it was pre dominaria.
We don't need twin. But the question should be can the format exist with it
Again, this is not about any blue deck needing help (although let's be honest, Simic does). This is not about making them better. It's about WotC not printing anything playable in that design space. Think of all the playable removal spells they've printed recently. Push, Cast Down, Trophy, Abrade, Collective Brutality, Blessed Alliance, K Command, Spatial Contortion. I can't even count all the playable creatures they've printed recently. We get a playable Planeswalker like every other set. But only three counters that see play in the past 10 years. I know I keep bringing up the same example, but is Countersquall a game-breaking upgrade over Negate for UBx decks? No, it's really not. It has a small bonus in exchange for being harder to cast. Why can't we get similar things in other color combinations? Again, it's not about making blue control of any color combination better, it's just about having different options. Do I want to go base UW for the negate variant that gains me 2 life, or UR for the negate variant that shocks a creature, or UB for the negate variant that shocks my opponent, and so on. What about Essence Scatter? Essence Scatter is completely unplayable in Modern, but maybe playing around with color requirements in the casting costs for small bonuses could produce something with some application in Modern. It just feels like they're not even trying to make interesting counters that are on a fine power level anymore. They only play around in the 3 cmc counter area, and even though this new one is probably the best Cancel variant they've ever printed, it will see 0 play because a 3 cmc counter is too expensive in Modern unless it's doing something way more powerful than WotC would probably ever print into Standard.
All of that was just, I wish I had more variation because it's fun and interesting. Do the things your advocating for provide improvements to those decks? Sure, marginal ones. It doesn't get to the crux of the issue, which is: Are the things you're asking for going to make whatever Ux variant you want to play a truly competitive deck?
Maybe you're fine with certain Ux variants not being at the top tables, but something that's viable at the LGS, which is fine. I think, however, based on the tone of many people on here, that most people want more than just UW to be a viable competitor at competition level magic. Thus, my point in citing to UW Control's results is that those results demonstrate that counter magic, as the epitome of counter magic deck building, is currently healthy and performing very well at the competitive level. I understand people don't all want to play UW and want UB, UR, etc. BUT, once again, is another variation on the counterspells already available going to improve those Ux decks and make them competitive? And, once again, looking at the results from UW, packing the same counterspells that are all, every single one, available to every other Ux build, the answer has to be "No".
I don't disagree that having different counterspells that incorporate elements of other parts of the color pie (Countersquall damaging opponent, your example of UR damaging a creature, etc.) would be fun and something that Wizards can do. However, those things aren't going to change the state of Modern, imo, and all of a sudden propel other Ux decks to the forefront of the Meta. They are fun, unique cards that make your Ux variant more interesting for you, which is great, for you. They are also marginal upgrades that will, admittedly, likely help those decks perform marginally better.
In the current state of modern thread, however, that special, gold star feeling of having a new toy to play with that's a very marginal improvement doesn't change the state of modern. It doesn't change the meta or the way other decks interact or the way other decks are built, because it's not the tool, weapon, finisher, whatever that those Ux decks need to actually be competitive and impact Modern. So, let's get real and differentiate the wishful thinking about new counterspell magic from the actual needs of Modern to make specific archetypes viable competitors.
Twin unban talk returns! Maybe one day we'll see the vocal Twin defenders stop the crusade, but I have my doubts. The goal posts keep shifting whenever a previous goal post is attained, so I don't think anything short of the actual Twin unban itself is going to satisfy Twin proponents. First they wanted a viable blue deck in Modern's top-tier. GDS and Jeskai came around but the playstyle was allegedly wrong, the decks (to paraphrase) "weren't viable enough," they weren't "truly" top-tier, etc. Then they wanted a viable controlling deck in Modern's top-tier. UW Control is clearly that but now some Twin players are refocusing on wanting a viable UR deck (and GDS/Jeskai still don't cut it). Then it was wanting a viable police deck in Modern that slowed down the rest of the format. Humans meets that definition, but again, some Twin defenders are unhappy that it's not the specific blue tempo/combo deck that they want. This returns me to the theory, which Teysa K stated in the last few months, about how the Twin defenders won't ever be satisfied until they can blue UR tempo/combo police decks with 4 cmc enchantments and two-card combos. I.e. until the card is unbanned. I agree that anyone who is STILL arguing about Twin when it's 2.5-3 years later is probably never going to be satisfied until the card is unbanned. I just never see the Twin defenders trying new approaches to that unbanning argument. Instead, they default to the tired arguments they have continued to try for 2.5-3 years.
There are so many more interesting Modern topics. Why not discuss those instead of regressing to the mean of Twin defense talk, especially when it's the same 2-3 people always swinging the thread back in that direction? We can talk about win-rates, metagame shares, Play Design's impact on Guilds, other unbans like GSZ, Arena and MTGO considerations, etc. I think many people even prefer this new direction of discussing countermagic options, because it's at least something new and interesting that might overlap with current Play Design conversations and thinking.
As GK said earlier, there will be no strong 2 CMC counterspells while Teferi exists in Standard. The good news is that they might exist post-Teferi. See Opt being deliberately excluded from sets where Jeskai Ascendancy was Standard-legal, and see Opt returning after that card was gone. Given that R&D had a serious Counterspell conversation, I expect we'll see it in the next few years much like we saw Opt after a similar serious conversation.
What are these other topics? I'm fine discussing them also.
Maybe one day we'll see the vocal Twin defenders stop the crusade, but I have my doubts. The goal posts keep shifting whenever a previous goal post is attained, so I don't think anything short of the actual Twin unban itself is going to satisfy Twin proponents.
Correct, and correct.
I just never see the Twin defenders trying new approaches to that unbanning argument. Instead, they default to the tired arguments they have continued to try for 2.5-3 years.
There isnt one that is possible. You know this, and I know this. What am I going to do, stage a hunger strike outside the Wizards office?
At this point we know the deal, we know that cfusionpm and I will push back on people saying Twin was/would be too strong, and we know that we will disagree vocally with people who think the Twin ban was appropriate, or accomplished the goals it was stated to have been banned for.
I propose, we simply ban Twin discussion again.
EDIT: And to propose Humans fills anything close to the same niche 'police deck' or otherwise is as (LITERALLY) insulting as calling G-Tron a Control Deck.
EDIT x 2: Further to this "...accomplished the goals it was stated to have been banned for" it would probably be nice if we saw agreement from the rest of the 'regulars' around here that Twin simply had no reason to be banned, that it was not an offender in any real way, was just another good Modern deck, and would simply slot back in as another good deck. That it was not oppressing other blue decks (we already have shown this to be true) and that the ban was a complete failure in terms of its stated goals. The only goal it accomplished, which would have been done ANYWAY due to the Eldrazi, was a Pro Tour shake up, which Forsythe admitted to, in not so many words.
I dont expect that to happen, but...if anyone could prove, PROVE, that there was a meaningful impact to the Twin ban that was positive other than 'yay I get to tap out and not care' well be my guest.
3 years of back and forth battle of Twin debate. 3 years is almost as long as World War 2.
Have just gotten used to it at some point... so it's not really taxing to look at anymore. The meta changes often, so who knows.. someday it might be indeed time to unban Twin.
There will never be a 'time' to unban Twin as there will never be a need for a Tempo/Control/Combo deck to come in and save us. To imply as much (not saying you or, but its not something I PERSONALLY do either) would be to say that one style of deck is inherently better than others and that is NOT what I am saying.
People play Value Town. I hate it.
People play Tron. I hate it.
People play BGx. I dont care for it.
People play Storm. I dont care for it.
People play Eldrazi and Taxes. I hate it, AND THEM.
Twin will not solve anything, however it remains the only deck that was completely removed from viability, and no Kiki Blue Moon is not viable its the worst freaking build of the deck and its not close, as Jund still exists, Toolbox/CoCo/GW Combo decks still exist (and are actually one of the best decks around based on ktk's findings) Eldrazi filth still exists, Storm STILL after 14172 ban's STILL exists, and even the dreaded EGGS is back in KCI, and Amulet still is around, while Dredge still exists as well.
Only Twin, needed to be nuked from orbit, no other deck died on the operating table, as the result of a ban, to the degree in which Twin did, and that is factual.
So lets look at the facts.
1. The ban did not accomplish its goal of increasing diversity. The math has been done, this is not up for discussion.
2. The deck was not oppressive. The meta was as diverse then, as it is now.
3. The deck was not preventing other Blue decks from existing. It took THREE YEARS for new cards to be printed in enough power to be impactful on the meta.
4. The deck was banned on a false pretense. Wizards is ON RECORD as not testing for ban/unban announcements. TO THIS DAY.
Twin never comes off, it has no need, other than for all the people who would drop whatever garbage we are playing (in comparison) and go back to the deck that should rightfully have never left.
Then again, did Grave Troll really need to be unbanned?
No. This isn't a trial. Nobody is obligated to prove to your expectations anything about twin. I also still laugh at cfusion's hearthstone comparision, as if no instants existed in the game besides counterspells to produce interaction on the opponent's turn.
No. This isn't a trial. Nobody is obligated to prove to your expectations anything about twin. I also still laugh at cfusion's hearthstone comparision, as if no instants existed in the game besides counterspells to produce interaction on the opponent's turn.
No, you are right nobody has to prove anything. People can continue to make statements that do not stand up to scrutiny, and we can wait for Wizards to correct their mistake.
Until then, or until such time as discussion on it is banned, we can continue to discuss Modern, and why Wizards made a mistake with Twin until I grow older and die.
Then again, did Grave Troll really need to be unbanned?
Considering it sat for more than a year and a half, doing practically nothing, until they printed severalnewbusted cards to break the deck to pieces, I'd say yes. And the only reason it was banned (over say, Reunion or Amalgam) was they hate banning new cards unless they are so obnoxiously broken, they have no other choice.
Let's not drag GGT into the conversation like it did anything wrong. 3 newly printed cards within 2 sets broke Dredge, not GGT.
When cards are banned from a format, Wizards investigates whether there is a banned card that, if not banned, might add new decks to competitive play. We look for cards that are unlikely to add power to existing top decks, but instead add new strategies or augment decks that are not currently as successful. Golgari Grave-Troll is very powerful in a deck based on getting a lot of cards into its graveyard. Replacing a card draw with dredge 6 is a terrific rate. However, that type of deck has not been as successful in Modern tournaments recently. While taking such a card off the banned list has some risks, this is a good time to see what happens. Golgari Grave-Troll is no longer banned.
Apparently they just wanted to make Dredge a thing in Modern? OK I guess. :]
I wasnt saying it did anything wrong, I know it was new cards that broke Dredge. I was just wondering why it was released again at all in the first place.
Apparently we need to wait for Wizards to want a Control/Tempo/Combo deck or to "augment decks that are not currently as successful" like every Blue Moon deck in existence.
EDIT x 2: Further to this "...accomplished the goals it was stated to have been banned for" it would probably be nice if we saw agreement from the rest of the 'regulars' around here that Twin simply had no reason to be banned, that it was not an offender in any real way, was just another good Modern deck, and would simply slot back in as another good deck. That it was not oppressing other blue decks (we already have shown this to be true) and that the ban was a complete failure in terms of its stated goals. The only goal it accomplished, which would have been done ANYWAY due to the Eldrazi, was a Pro Tour shake up, which Forsythe admitted to, in not so many words.
I dont expect that to happen, but...if anyone could prove, PROVE, that there was a meaningful impact to the Twin ban that was positive other than 'yay I get to tap out and not care' well be my guest.
Twin had almost no bad matchups and reduced combo deck diversity, as it simply was THE BEST combo deck. I find it to be very positive that I have even the tiniest hope of playing interesting combo decks that might have the versatility and multiple attack angles to stand up to both other combo decks, as well as MidRange or Control decks.
If Twin exists in Modern, that hope dissipates. Its interaction suite is by far better than any other available combo deck can present, it has better angles to attack on than other combo decks can provide, and it still maintains a fast clock that arrives at instant speed. I see no positives to reducing the amount of Brew Space in Modern by adding a singularly "best" combo deck like Twin.
WotC's reasons were all BS. My reasons are simply personal bias because I don't want to lose all of my toys simply so that you can have your one toy back again.
How are people feeling about Assassin's Trophy? Thoughts on how it will shake things up? I'm thinking GB becomes the better Jund, as to my knowledge the ability to hit any kind of walker with New Decay means there isn't as much reason to run red (Bolts). Also, GB was already gaining traction as people discover just how good Tireless Tracker is, while 2 color manabases make Field of Ruin easier to run. Will Abzan see an uptick, as well? I used to enjoy Jund a few years ago, it'd be cool to try out again with all these new (old) tools it's gotten recently.
Banning Twin did nothing for your 'combo deck diversity'. KCI is Eggs, and Grishoalbrand is still around at the same rate, while Storm, is still storm.
You lose nothing by Twin being unbanned, as you are already playing the fringe decks that were fringe when Twin existed.
What are these decks that you are even talking about? Belcher? I've seen it ONCE in over a year online. Cherri0s? Nope, I've seen it maybe 3 times, and I play nearly every single day.
Twin was not, and would not, suppress those decks any more then they suppress themselves.
EDIT: I'm going to have to walk away for a bit, as this "I don't want to lose all of my toys simply so that you can have your one toy back again." is so tilting I feel a need to scream out my window.
I, lost something. You gained, nothing. Its like all the Eldrazi decks still kicking around pissing me off by simply existing while I had to lose my deck.
Then again, did Grave Troll really need to be unbanned?
Considering it sat for more than a year and a half, doing practically nothing, until they printed severalnewbusted cards to break the deck to pieces, I'd say yes. And the only reason it was banned (over say, Reunion or Amalgam) was they hate banning new cards unless they are so obnoxiously broken, they have no other choice.
Let's not drag GGT into the conversation like it did anything wrong. 3 newly printed cards within 2 sets broke Dredge, not GGT.
I agree with you here. I think his point is something along the lines of "does any card really need to be unbanned?" It's just like my thinking since the beginning of Modern that Sword of the Meek should be unbanned. Many thought it was too strong. Others simply said, "what will it do for our meta? Will it be helpful in any way?" And to this day, I will admit that Sword has done VERY LITTLE.
My own personal opinion is yes, something should be unbanned if it won't cause serious problems in Modern. If a card won't hurt diversity to a large extent, cause consistent turn 3 wins, or take too long, it should be unbanned. That is my opinion and I have come to learn that it is not shared by everybody.
*But I do agree with ktkenshinx. There are indeed much more interesting subjects to discuss here (although interesting is obviously the most subjective word one can think of; I'm pretty sure the number of people that would like to discuss Mental Misstep here is more than 0 ).
**On another note, I always hear about UW Control being the number 1 factor in the (minor) demise of Humans recently. But the stats that ktkenshinx showed from GPs and Opens showed UW having a less than 45% win rate vs. Humans. I personally don't know the matchup. I actually plan to play UW Control after I win a PPTQ soon hopefully with something else. But does anyone know why and in which way UW Control has helped quell Humans somewhat? Is this just something wrong I'm hearing or my old ears are failing me?
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
UW can attack their mana in a way mostly unique to the top decks, while also wiping the board with a single W. At that point its very hard for them to come back against a resolved Jace/Teferi.
If the Humans player is able to disrupt enough however, they have the clock needed to just win by turning their disruption sideways.
Yknow, faeries is very close to being able to play the game twin did, we just dont have the I-win button to strategize with. I wholeheartedly do want the combo deck back, because it makes the Faeries brand of interaction much better, but thats not the reason for this post.
I think Id enjoy having cheaper blue threats (and Im not talking like heavy power toughness sloggers, because blue doesnt do that) that have the ability to shift gears and ignore what the opponent is doing by design, because thats often what the issue is. And control over time exists in blue's range of effects, evident with "extra turn" effects, so a couple of cards that focuses on time efficiency (that are less 'build around me specifically') would be nice in the absence of the counterspell quality we are looking for as blue mages.
Maybe until then the answer is more nimble obstructionists out of the sb, strategically, but Id like to see what else could come about in that vein of card design.
This is why vendillion clique does a lot of work. It is the best card of this type by miles legal in modern.
THis is likely why people wanted stoneforge (I think batterskull makes this a problem, not future design) so much for a bit. It is a card that fits in a pair that helps turn the corner. You just tutor up a sword and have this ability to race in an aggro-control based tempo gameplan.
Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
How are people feeling about Assassin's Trophy? Thoughts on how it will shake things up? I'm thinking GB becomes the better Jund, as to my knowledge the ability to hit any kind of walker with New Decay means there isn't as much reason to run red (Bolts). Also, GB was already gaining traction as people discover just how good Tireless Tracker is, while 2 color manabases make Field of Ruin easier to run. Will Abzan see an uptick, as well? I used to enjoy Jund a few years ago, it'd be cool to try out again with all these new (old) tools it's gotten recently.
I feel like Jund will still be the best. Assasin's Trophy swamps in for Terminate/Dreadbore easily and Bloodbraid/Kologhans Command are just so back breaking.
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UR Delver was a great deck and people like Shenhar playing TC in their burn deck was just silly (and bad), but it wasn't even the best deck in that era. Rhino Pod was. Granted, oppressive doesn't necessarily mean Tier 0 deck. Semantics....
Anyways. Briefing is an interesting card. It probably fits better into UW miracles, but it works well with delve cards too. Also, it's pretty nice value with Snapcaster late game. Fixes top of your deck and you recast a removal/counter. Solid 1-2 of. Definitely want to be playing more blue sources and 1-2 CMC cards if you're going to play 5 or 6 Snap effects. Thought Scour gets better as does Search (since this helps Search flip and you can find it off of Search).
Also, is anyone disappointed that there isn't a Charm or a Command cycle yet? It's so weird seeing a Selesnya creature getting the modal treatment rather than spells/other guilds.
Again, this is not about any blue deck needing help (although let's be honest, Simic does). This is not about making them better. It's about WotC not printing anything playable in that design space. Think of all the playable removal spells they've printed recently. Push, Cast Down, Trophy, Abrade, Collective Brutality, Blessed Alliance, K Command, Spatial Contortion. I can't even count all the playable creatures they've printed recently. We get a playable Planeswalker like every other set. But only three counters that see play in the past 10 years. I know I keep bringing up the same example, but is Countersquall a game-breaking upgrade over Negate for UBx decks? No, it's really not. It has a small bonus in exchange for being harder to cast. Why can't we get similar things in other color combinations? Again, it's not about making blue control of any color combination better, it's just about having different options. Do I want to go base UW for the negate variant that gains me 2 life, or UR for the negate variant that shocks a creature, or UB for the negate variant that shocks my opponent, and so on. What about Essence Scatter? Essence Scatter is completely unplayable in Modern, but maybe playing around with color requirements in the casting costs for small bonuses could produce something with some application in Modern. It just feels like they're not even trying to make interesting counters that are on a fine power level anymore. They only play around in the 3 cmc counter area, and even though this new one is probably the best Cancel variant they've ever printed, it will see 0 play because a 3 cmc counter is too expensive in Modern unless it's doing something way more powerful than WotC would probably ever print into Standard.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Youcant compare the lack of counterspells to the lack of removal. There has been alot of removal printed in abrupt decay, terminate, dread bore, fatal push, now assassins trophy, heroes downfall, murderous cut
The amount of playable removal that has been printed completely blows the amount of playable counterspells out of the water. Completely incomparable.
The point is neglect isnt seen anywhere else except in the design of counterspells.
RUAffinityUR
GMono Green StompyG
CEldrazi TronC
URWJeskai GeistWRU
WRBoros BurnRW
BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
The dream of the Brewer is that no one has tuned those decks correctly so that they ARE playable from a competitive standpoint. I've been testing the Belcher variant that one guy posted on Reddit, saying he's 20-4 in matches this past month, and it's pretty dang good. Gkouru is pretty spot-on, though, in saying that Humans is the new "fair" Twin by making these decks very difficult to play with Meddling Mage and Freebooter forcing you to interact or get trampled to death. They just don't have a 2-card "I win" button that makes them a better version of Belcher; instead, they police the format and cleanup a lot of the silly, degenerate decks a bit more while not being the best degenerate deck. I much prefer things this way, personally.
With Twin in the format, why would I even brew degenerate decks at all? Does it matter if I brew up the next Cheeri0s deck? No, because it'll still never be better than Twin.
Spirits
We don't need twin. But the question should be can the format exist with it
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
All of that was just, I wish I had more variation because it's fun and interesting. Do the things your advocating for provide improvements to those decks? Sure, marginal ones. It doesn't get to the crux of the issue, which is: Are the things you're asking for going to make whatever Ux variant you want to play a truly competitive deck?
Maybe you're fine with certain Ux variants not being at the top tables, but something that's viable at the LGS, which is fine. I think, however, based on the tone of many people on here, that most people want more than just UW to be a viable competitor at competition level magic. Thus, my point in citing to UW Control's results is that those results demonstrate that counter magic, as the epitome of counter magic deck building, is currently healthy and performing very well at the competitive level. I understand people don't all want to play UW and want UB, UR, etc. BUT, once again, is another variation on the counterspells already available going to improve those Ux decks and make them competitive? And, once again, looking at the results from UW, packing the same counterspells that are all, every single one, available to every other Ux build, the answer has to be "No".
I don't disagree that having different counterspells that incorporate elements of other parts of the color pie (Countersquall damaging opponent, your example of UR damaging a creature, etc.) would be fun and something that Wizards can do. However, those things aren't going to change the state of Modern, imo, and all of a sudden propel other Ux decks to the forefront of the Meta. They are fun, unique cards that make your Ux variant more interesting for you, which is great, for you. They are also marginal upgrades that will, admittedly, likely help those decks perform marginally better.
In the current state of modern thread, however, that special, gold star feeling of having a new toy to play with that's a very marginal improvement doesn't change the state of modern. It doesn't change the meta or the way other decks interact or the way other decks are built, because it's not the tool, weapon, finisher, whatever that those Ux decks need to actually be competitive and impact Modern. So, let's get real and differentiate the wishful thinking about new counterspell magic from the actual needs of Modern to make specific archetypes viable competitors.
There are so many more interesting Modern topics. Why not discuss those instead of regressing to the mean of Twin defense talk, especially when it's the same 2-3 people always swinging the thread back in that direction? We can talk about win-rates, metagame shares, Play Design's impact on Guilds, other unbans like GSZ, Arena and MTGO considerations, etc. I think many people even prefer this new direction of discussing countermagic options, because it's at least something new and interesting that might overlap with current Play Design conversations and thinking.
As GK said earlier, there will be no strong 2 CMC counterspells while Teferi exists in Standard. The good news is that they might exist post-Teferi. See Opt being deliberately excluded from sets where Jeskai Ascendancy was Standard-legal, and see Opt returning after that card was gone. Given that R&D had a serious Counterspell conversation, I expect we'll see it in the next few years much like we saw Opt after a similar serious conversation.
Correct, and correct.
There isnt one that is possible. You know this, and I know this. What am I going to do, stage a hunger strike outside the Wizards office?
At this point we know the deal, we know that cfusionpm and I will push back on people saying Twin was/would be too strong, and we know that we will disagree vocally with people who think the Twin ban was appropriate, or accomplished the goals it was stated to have been banned for.
I propose, we simply ban Twin discussion again.
EDIT: And to propose Humans fills anything close to the same niche 'police deck' or otherwise is as (LITERALLY) insulting as calling G-Tron a Control Deck.
EDIT x 2: Further to this "...accomplished the goals it was stated to have been banned for" it would probably be nice if we saw agreement from the rest of the 'regulars' around here that Twin simply had no reason to be banned, that it was not an offender in any real way, was just another good Modern deck, and would simply slot back in as another good deck. That it was not oppressing other blue decks (we already have shown this to be true) and that the ban was a complete failure in terms of its stated goals. The only goal it accomplished, which would have been done ANYWAY due to the Eldrazi, was a Pro Tour shake up, which Forsythe admitted to, in not so many words.
I dont expect that to happen, but...if anyone could prove, PROVE, that there was a meaningful impact to the Twin ban that was positive other than 'yay I get to tap out and not care' well be my guest.
Spirits
There will never be a 'time' to unban Twin as there will never be a need for a Tempo/Control/Combo deck to come in and save us. To imply as much (not saying you or, but its not something I PERSONALLY do either) would be to say that one style of deck is inherently better than others and that is NOT what I am saying.
People play Value Town. I hate it.
People play Tron. I hate it.
People play BGx. I dont care for it.
People play Storm. I dont care for it.
People play Eldrazi and Taxes. I hate it, AND THEM.
Twin will not solve anything, however it remains the only deck that was completely removed from viability, and no Kiki Blue Moon is not viable its the worst freaking build of the deck and its not close, as Jund still exists, Toolbox/CoCo/GW Combo decks still exist (and are actually one of the best decks around based on ktk's findings) Eldrazi filth still exists, Storm STILL after 14172 ban's STILL exists, and even the dreaded EGGS is back in KCI, and Amulet still is around, while Dredge still exists as well.
Only Twin, needed to be nuked from orbit, no other deck died on the operating table, as the result of a ban, to the degree in which Twin did, and that is factual.
So lets look at the facts.
1. The ban did not accomplish its goal of increasing diversity. The math has been done, this is not up for discussion.
2. The deck was not oppressive. The meta was as diverse then, as it is now.
3. The deck was not preventing other Blue decks from existing. It took THREE YEARS for new cards to be printed in enough power to be impactful on the meta.
4. The deck was banned on a false pretense. Wizards is ON RECORD as not testing for ban/unban announcements. TO THIS DAY.
Twin never comes off, it has no need, other than for all the people who would drop whatever garbage we are playing (in comparison) and go back to the deck that should rightfully have never left.
Then again, did Grave Troll really need to be unbanned?
Spirits
No, you are right nobody has to prove anything. People can continue to make statements that do not stand up to scrutiny, and we can wait for Wizards to correct their mistake.
Until then, or until such time as discussion on it is banned, we can continue to discuss Modern, and why Wizards made a mistake with Twin until I grow older and die.
Spirits
Considering it sat for more than a year and a half, doing practically nothing, until they printed several new busted cards to break the deck to pieces, I'd say yes. And the only reason it was banned (over say, Reunion or Amalgam) was they hate banning new cards unless they are so obnoxiously broken, they have no other choice.
Let's not drag GGT into the conversation like it did anything wrong. 3 newly printed cards within 2 sets broke Dredge, not GGT.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Apparently they just wanted to make Dredge a thing in Modern? OK I guess. :]
I wasnt saying it did anything wrong, I know it was new cards that broke Dredge. I was just wondering why it was released again at all in the first place.
Apparently we need to wait for Wizards to want a Control/Tempo/Combo deck or to "augment decks that are not currently as successful" like every Blue Moon deck in existence.
Spirits
Twin had almost no bad matchups and reduced combo deck diversity, as it simply was THE BEST combo deck. I find it to be very positive that I have even the tiniest hope of playing interesting combo decks that might have the versatility and multiple attack angles to stand up to both other combo decks, as well as MidRange or Control decks.
If Twin exists in Modern, that hope dissipates. Its interaction suite is by far better than any other available combo deck can present, it has better angles to attack on than other combo decks can provide, and it still maintains a fast clock that arrives at instant speed. I see no positives to reducing the amount of Brew Space in Modern by adding a singularly "best" combo deck like Twin.
WotC's reasons were all BS. My reasons are simply personal bias because I don't want to lose all of my toys simply so that you can have your one toy back again.
You lose nothing by Twin being unbanned, as you are already playing the fringe decks that were fringe when Twin existed.
What are these decks that you are even talking about? Belcher? I've seen it ONCE in over a year online. Cherri0s? Nope, I've seen it maybe 3 times, and I play nearly every single day.
Twin was not, and would not, suppress those decks any more then they suppress themselves.
EDIT: I'm going to have to walk away for a bit, as this "I don't want to lose all of my toys simply so that you can have your one toy back again." is so tilting I feel a need to scream out my window.
I, lost something. You gained, nothing. Its like all the Eldrazi decks still kicking around pissing me off by simply existing while I had to lose my deck.
Spirits
I agree with you here. I think his point is something along the lines of "does any card really need to be unbanned?" It's just like my thinking since the beginning of Modern that Sword of the Meek should be unbanned. Many thought it was too strong. Others simply said, "what will it do for our meta? Will it be helpful in any way?" And to this day, I will admit that Sword has done VERY LITTLE.
My own personal opinion is yes, something should be unbanned if it won't cause serious problems in Modern. If a card won't hurt diversity to a large extent, cause consistent turn 3 wins, or take too long, it should be unbanned. That is my opinion and I have come to learn that it is not shared by everybody.
*But I do agree with ktkenshinx. There are indeed much more interesting subjects to discuss here (although interesting is obviously the most subjective word one can think of; I'm pretty sure the number of people that would like to discuss Mental Misstep here is more than 0 ).
**On another note, I always hear about UW Control being the number 1 factor in the (minor) demise of Humans recently. But the stats that ktkenshinx showed from GPs and Opens showed UW having a less than 45% win rate vs. Humans. I personally don't know the matchup. I actually plan to play UW Control after I win a PPTQ soon hopefully with something else. But does anyone know why and in which way UW Control has helped quell Humans somewhat? Is this just something wrong I'm hearing or my old ears are failing me?
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)If the Humans player is able to disrupt enough however, they have the clock needed to just win by turning their disruption sideways.
Spirits
I think Id enjoy having cheaper blue threats (and Im not talking like heavy power toughness sloggers, because blue doesnt do that) that have the ability to shift gears and ignore what the opponent is doing by design, because thats often what the issue is. And control over time exists in blue's range of effects, evident with "extra turn" effects, so a couple of cards that focuses on time efficiency (that are less 'build around me specifically') would be nice in the absence of the counterspell quality we are looking for as blue mages.
Maybe until then the answer is more nimble obstructionists out of the sb, strategically, but Id like to see what else could come about in that vein of card design.
This is why vendillion clique does a lot of work. It is the best card of this type by miles legal in modern.
THis is likely why people wanted stoneforge (I think batterskull makes this a problem, not future design) so much for a bit. It is a card that fits in a pair that helps turn the corner. You just tutor up a sword and have this ability to race in an aggro-control based tempo gameplan.
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
I feel like Jund will still be the best. Assasin's Trophy swamps in for Terminate/Dreadbore easily and Bloodbraid/Kologhans Command are just so back breaking.