(Note: There was an old thread about this topic from 2011, but I didn't want to necro something from the archives. It still may be worth reading though for those interested.)
Which is better in the currant Modern metagame and why? Also, is this deck dependent (Ok, I'll answer my own question here in part; Thoughtseize seems strictly better in Death's Shadow decks)? Or opposing deck dependent? U/W Control and Tron have way more juicy 4+cmc targets than most other decks.
Admittedly, I used to be a huge Thoughtseize fan, and I still love the card. However, it seems like IoK hits like 90% of the stuff Thoughtseize does (more than it did a few years ago, as the cmc of the format in general seems to have compressed a bit), and it also feels like the loss of two life hurts more than ever with all the aggro running around. I've found that the four open slots I have in my Jund Loam deck for discard spells have slowly gone from x4 Thoughtseize to x4 IoK (plus a Raven's Crime as the fifth discard spell). Am I wrong here? Is some sort of split always optimal?
IMO, unless the number of Thought-Knot Seers in the format plunges to 0, a split is always optimal, even if you play only 4 targeted discard spells. (OK, fine, play TKS or Tidehollow Sculler yourself and I'll give you a pass because both of them can nab anything Thoughtseize can get.) TKS is probably the most common 4+-cmc card that can be played on Turn 2 (thanks, Eldrazi Temple), thus giving you incentive to eliminate it ASAP.
It does feel like the life loss increasingly hurts, though, and the rise of aggro is making targeted discard less useful, anyway. I always split in favour of Inquisition of Kozilek (e.g. 4 IoK-2 TS) (OK, fine, except in Death's Shadow decks), but I dropped a targeted discard spell from my test Jund list recently and I actually haven't regretted it yet.
It is deck dependent. The faster your deck is, the more you want Thoughtseize. The slower your deck is, the more you want Inquisition of Kozilek.
Just look at some TS numbers from decks that play it:
Mardu: 3 TS, 4 IOK
Jund: 2 TS, 4 IOK
Grixis DS: 4 TS, 2 IOK (life loss = larger Shadows)
Hollow One: 2-3 TS, no IOK (SB)
Bridgevine: 3-4 TS, no IOK (SB)
Thoughtseize may be better against Tron, but let's be honest, Mardu or Jund wouldn't stand a chance against Tron even if their TS and IOK numbers were swapped.
If you're playing an aggro deck it's always Thoughtseize in the SB. You bring it in for combo/control matchups where they can't pressure your life total.
Honestly I think that thoughtseize is the best but I understand that fetch shock ts and starting the game at 15 is a huge downside. Iok hits most things that you want to hit and I think that people could play iok md and duress in the board in place of ts where you would normally bring them in because most od the stuff that is over 3 xmx that you want to hit is a non creature non land card except maybe prime time and wurmcoil and a few others. Especially if they're coming in against control and combo your probably not going after a creature.
I originally planned to have 3 or even 4 seize in my deck, but settled for just two. Because a meta with plenty of phoenix and hollow one is not friendly to seize. Turn 1 seize to see opponent is on phoenix is painful.
(Note: There was an old thread about this topic from 2011, but I didn't want to necro something from the archives. It still may be worth reading though for those interested.)
Which is better in the currant Modern metagame and why? Also, is this deck dependent (Ok, I'll answer my own question here in part; Thoughtseize seems strictly better in Death's Shadow decks)? Or opposing deck dependent? U/W Control and Tron have way more juicy 4+cmc targets than most other decks.
Admittedly, I used to be a huge Thoughtseize fan, and I still love the card. However, it seems like IoK hits like 90% of the stuff Thoughtseize does (more than it did a few years ago, as the cmc of the format in general seems to have compressed a bit), and it also feels like the loss of two life hurts more than ever with all the aggro running around. I've found that the four open slots I have in my Jund Loam deck for discard spells have slowly gone from x4 Thoughtseize to x4 IoK (plus a Raven's Crime as the fifth discard spell). Am I wrong here? Is some sort of split always optimal?
What do you think on these issues?
It does feel like the life loss increasingly hurts, though, and the rise of aggro is making targeted discard less useful, anyway. I always split in favour of Inquisition of Kozilek (e.g. 4 IoK-2 TS) (OK, fine, except in Death's Shadow decks), but I dropped a targeted discard spell from my test Jund list recently and I actually haven't regretted it yet.
Just look at some TS numbers from decks that play it:
Mardu: 3 TS, 4 IOK
Jund: 2 TS, 4 IOK
Grixis DS: 4 TS, 2 IOK (life loss = larger Shadows)
Hollow One: 2-3 TS, no IOK (SB)
Bridgevine: 3-4 TS, no IOK (SB)
Thoughtseize may be better against Tron, but let's be honest, Mardu or Jund wouldn't stand a chance against Tron even if their TS and IOK numbers were swapped.
If you're playing an aggro deck it's always Thoughtseize in the SB. You bring it in for combo/control matchups where they can't pressure your life total.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread