So anyway, with the GP + SCG being literally FULL of KCI and Phoenix, I cannot imagine we are at a point where no changes are made on whatever day the next update is.
Is a turn 3 batterskull even WORTH worrying about? I dont think so, not with Thing Bounce + Multiple Bolts flying at you on Turn 3.
Is any one ban even going to do a thing? I dont think so.
If they don't ban at this point any further ban/unban talk should be stopped forever.
Though that will never happen. People won't stop until we are all either trying to win with Flying Men or everybody is casting Ancestral Recall off their Mox Sapphire.
There is no middle ground and a decision needs to be made about in which direction the format will go. Standard plus or Legacy lite. Continued bannings is clearly the tool of the Standard plus camp that will not stop until chaining Siege Rhinos becomes the best way to victory. Unbannings, reprints and new cards are the tools of the other camp and Im firmly in that one.
Modern already became a bit of a laughing stock in the past because you had to hope that your deck never does well because otherwise it gets banned. Confirming that dynamic is like tronix said irreparable damage to the format and the trust in it.
So what would be next? We saw Phoenix decks have tons of explosive turns. Guess we ban that too.
7 mana on turn 3? Banned.
Playing a bunch of creatures that buff each other? Banned.
Playing a black 1 mana 13/13 creature? Banned
Where do we draw the line here, eh?
Right nobody can answer that because if I would ask 10 people I would get 12 different responses or something like that. "Just ban everything I personally don't like."
But there is one party who can answer this and those are the creators of the game. And I hope that they stop taking the easy way out by making announcements that invalidate entire decks and then sit on their hands the rest of the time.
This is after all no Treasure Cruise or Eldrazi era. It can be dealt with in a different way.
I missed this, but I fully agree.
Do we just accept Modern as it is then? I'm probably fine with that honestly.
That was the most meme-tastic GP I've seen in a while. Wizards really needs to take a note from groups that manage to stream events regularly in how they broadcast. I don't know if there was anything they could do about the horrendous ending, but it really does not paint Wizards in a good light to have the finals of a GP be a concession, especially after all the KCI matches they showcased, which I loved, but newer players likely hated. It's like someone really wanted Modern Wizards events to be poorly rated in order to back up decisions to cut support for the format...
A lot of disinformation about KCI in this thread. 4 in the top 8 is obviously a flashing neon warning sign, but let's be realistic with complaints.
(1) Complaining about play patterns is irrelevant to bannings by all previous standards.
(2) Holding up Matt Nass' GP record as evidence is extreme cherry picking. No different than using Caleb Scherer's record to complain.
(3) KCI doesn't rely on "rules abuse" to win. The trick being mentioned isn't even relevant in the vast, vast majority of games.
(4) Banning Scrap Trawler neuters the deck. May be necessary, but it's far more Splinter Twin than Summer Bloom.
The bigger statement, and I've seen a couple people touch on this, is in WHY we saw a resurgence in KCI. In a hyper linear format where decks aren't playing great interaction, it's the best. GBx and UWx are tough match-ups; Phoenix, Dredge, and whatever other non-interactive decks aren't. If KCI is lining up for a ban (and it looks like it is), that doesn't fix the meta spiral to linear decks.
Side note: I wouldn't be surprised if part of KCI's success at the GP is opponents' general unfamiliarity with the combo (judging by this thread). That wouldn't apply to the toppest of tables, but even your 75th percentile player doesn't seem to understand how to disrupt it well.
All good points, its the same with Phoenix. Interactive decks eat it up so the question becomes.
Why are interactive decks not seeing success?
Partially because the non-interactive decks are getting so good at attacking on multiple axes, or fighting through hate. I watched both the GP and SCG event today, so I don't remember which it was, but there was a game where KCI won handily through two Relics on the same turn. The deck cannot be stopped with 1-of GY wipes, and can work through even Stony with the recent adaptation of Sai.
There doesn't exist hate that is widely relevant enough, as well as strong enough, to allow interactive decks to reliably compete against enough of the huge field that is Modern. There are just too many non-interactive decks for the interactive decks to keep up with.
All good points, its the same with Phoenix. Interactive decks eat it up so the question becomes.
Why are interactive decks not seeing success?
Partially because the non-interactive decks are getting so good at attacking on multiple axes, or fighting through hate. I watched both the GP and SCG event today, so I don't remember which it was, but there was a game where KCI won handily through two Relics on the same turn. The deck cannot be stopped with 1-of GY wipes, and can work through even Stony with the recent adaptation of Sai.
There doesn't exist hate that is widely relevant enough, as well as strong enough, to allow interactive decks to reliably compete against enough of the huge field that is Modern. There are just too many non-interactive decks for the interactive decks to keep up with.
Thats kind of what I was thinking. Perhaps if Esper was good enough (Permission, Removal, Hate) it could do the job.
Phoenix loses to GDS for example.
KCI has issues with the combo of Stony and RIP.
Is that what it would take to cover enough of the field of issues?
All good points, its the same with Phoenix. Interactive decks eat it up so the question becomes.
Why are interactive decks not seeing success?
Partially because the non-interactive decks are getting so good at attacking on multiple axes, or fighting through hate. I watched both the GP and SCG event today, so I don't remember which it was, but there was a game where KCI won handily through two Relics on the same turn. The deck cannot be stopped with 1-of GY wipes, and can work through even Stony with the recent adaptation of Sai.
There doesn't exist hate that is widely relevant enough, as well as strong enough, to allow interactive decks to reliably compete against enough of the huge field that is Modern. There are just too many non-interactive decks for the interactive decks to keep up with.
Thats kind of what I was thinking. Perhaps if Esper was good enough (Permission, Removal, Hate) it could do the job.
Phoenix loses to GDS for example.
KCI has issues with the combo of Stony and RIP.
Is that what it would take to cover enough of the field of issues?
Marshall Sutcliff mentioned something like this on stream, stating something like sure, you could tune to beat KCI and bring in extra Stonys and RIPs or whatever, and then you only see it 1-3 times in a tournament and lose to everything else.
I honestly just think that we're getting to the tipping point in Modern, where non-interactive decks have all the toys of the last decade, while "fair" decks are left with cards and strategies that made it through Standard, and are thus much weaker than what once was. For anything to compete nowadays it needs to synergize extremely well with preexisting cards, otherwise that card would likely be too strong for Standard. Without their own Force of Will, interactive decks just don't get to compete on the same level of mana-efficiency as all these top decks get to.
In order to halt the slipping of Modern into Legacy-lite, I'm pretty sure the only option is a straight-to-Modern product where the Modern version of FoW can come from. The only thing Standard can continue to give us are more Arclight Phoenixes and Scrap Trawlers, which enable or create even more non-interactive strategies with older cards.
Thats kind of it. We need either direct to Modern answers, or the hate needs to be even wider and more main deck or cross angle (Damping, Knight of Autumn) than we are even used to.
Maybe thats the path, and we need to see the next few sets, I dont know?
As it is, I do have a positive rate against KCI, but I get literally SMOKED by GDS, with Knightfall, and I'm probably in the positive against Tron, and even with Storm.
The hate is there, but you need to present a clock + the hate, to even stand a chance in Modern.
Yea, which is honestly fine. If you want to durdle around for the first four turns of the game without winning or meaningfully interacting, then Modern really isn't the format for you.
I've felt for a while that Modern and Vintage actually share quite a bit of characteristics with eachother. At least, Vintage from a few years ago before Mentor really took off. Dredge, Shops, and Blue were the top 3 archetypes. We're sort of at a similar spot in Modern.
In Vintage the "fair" decks NEEDED to slot 4+ gy hate AND 4+ artifact hate in their SBs. The reason they didn't lose to the rest of the field is because of cards like Force of Will and Wasteland being main-deck answers to the fringe shenanigans.
In Modern you can slot 4+ gy hate and 4+ artifact hate in the SB. In fact I think that's probably the right thing at the moment. But you still need enough answers to the rest of the field, which includes multiple strategies. Field of Ruin is a good start if you're in 2 colors. But we need a 0-mana answer like Force to be able to contain the shenanigans. When fair decks can't contain the field because they're focused on the other top dogs, we get results like today's.
I'm not necessarily advocating for Force in Modern. But we need something like that. We need something to help police the format instead of just banning things once the meta gets solved and results in degeneracy.
All good points, its the same with Phoenix. Interactive decks eat it up so the question becomes.
Why are interactive decks not seeing success?
Partially because the non-interactive decks are getting so good at attacking on multiple axes, or fighting through hate. I watched both the GP and SCG event today, so I don't remember which it was, but there was a game where KCI won handily through two Relics on the same turn. The deck cannot be stopped with 1-of GY wipes, and can work through even Stony with the recent adaptation of Sai.
There doesn't exist hate that is widely relevant enough, as well as strong enough, to allow interactive decks to reliably compete against enough of the huge field that is Modern. There are just too many non-interactive decks for the interactive decks to keep up with.
KCI (or Phoenix) doing that honestly shouldn't be too surprising. Relic isn't great GY hate unless it's T1 and you follow with a clock or additional hate (Sphere, RIP, Stony).
I think the challenge is "fair" decks are getting stretched too thin to cover all the different linear strategies between Dredge, Phoenix, KCI, and other aggro. Most answers are purely SB material and that usually means trying to win G2 and G3. We really need more Knight of Autumn and K-Command-type cards that aren't embarrassing to play maindeck.
People make fun of me for repeatedly saying this for three years, but what other solution exists that doesn't rely on banning a dozen cards, or continuing to aimlessly hope something comes from a new set? Especially after new sets have shown themselves time and time again to disproportionately create/help fast/linear decks?
In addition to fixing one of the greatest wrongs of the past, it is simple and elegant.
KCI (or Phoenix) doing that honestly shouldn't be too surprising. Relic isn't great GY hate unless it's T1 and you follow with a clock or additional hate (Sphere, RIP, Stony).
We saw KCI win on camera through double Relic, including one of them on turn 1.
Honestly, the focus of MTGA on BO1 formats might be helpful for us. MaRo has said that they are now trying to design more "maindeckable" hate cards to improve BO1 formats, and that will most likely result in more cards like Knight of Autumn, which is at least a jump in the right direction when it comes to generic, playable answers. Might be only a few of the handful of those cards that are decent enough for Modern play, but I guess we don't have much other choice.
I'm still of the opinion that says Ancient Stirrings should go, not KCI.
It would be sad to see an entire archetype disappear when it can be reigned in instead by reducing its consistency.
If the deck presents logistical issues, and only if, then I would advocate KCI itself as the correct target.
But if this is not the case, and it is just too consistent at assembling the combo, then I would suggest Stirrings instead, which eliminates no entire archetypes but reduces the consistency of various hated archetypes such as Lantern, Tron, Amulet, and KCI simultaneously. Just as Ponder and Preordain went away to reduce the consistency of a large swath of blue/red combo decks, I think this would be the correct option.
You don't insert a problematic deck to (try and) fix a problem in a format.
Thats making the claim that a deck would be problematic, and thats a stretch. Its more than a stretch, but honestly do we want to even open that discussion? I dont.
You don't insert a problematic deck to (try and) fix a problem in a format.
That assumes that the deck a) was actually problematic when it was banned; a point of controversy that has been discussed for three years, and b) would still be problematic today, in a considerably faster and more powerful format, in which it got no meaningful upgrades.
Both of those are very strong assumptions to make.
KCI (or Phoenix) doing that honestly shouldn't be too surprising. Relic isn't great GY hate unless it's T1 and you follow with a clock or additional hate (Sphere, RIP, Stony).
We saw KCI win on camera through double Relic, including one of them on turn 1.
I didn't watch but I believe it. You need T1 Relic plus pressure because it's very weak grave hate. If I had to guess, the KCI player didn't cantrip until he was set up T4+ with Trawler; opponent has to keep up 1 mana in the meantime. Then KCI player starts carefully looping for value to force the crack or the value can pull him ahead.
The moral of the story is Relic is not great GY hate against any deck that can get incremental value out of their yard. It might buy you a few turns.
Naturally can play Thoughtseize, Surgical Extraction, Tarmogoyf, Lingering Souls, Stony Silence, and Rest in Peace. Has disruption, clock, and the ever important White hate, and yet when is the last time Junk did anything?
Naturally can play Thoughtseize, Surgical Extraction, Tarmogoyf, Lingering Souls, Stony Silence, and Rest in Peace. Has disruption, clock, and the ever important White hate, and yet when is the last time Junk did anything?
Why is it not seeing any play?
Its clock isn't fast enough to meaningfully race the turn 3-4 decks, and it falls under the "draw my answer or lose" kind of deck. Plus it gets dumpstered by Titanshift and Tron, both very popular and good decks.
Spirits
Is a turn 3 batterskull even WORTH worrying about? I dont think so, not with Thing Bounce + Multiple Bolts flying at you on Turn 3.
Is any one ban even going to do a thing? I dont think so.
Spirits
I missed this, but I fully agree.
Do we just accept Modern as it is then? I'm probably fine with that honestly.
Spirits
(1) Complaining about play patterns is irrelevant to bannings by all previous standards.
(2) Holding up Matt Nass' GP record as evidence is extreme cherry picking. No different than using Caleb Scherer's record to complain.
(3) KCI doesn't rely on "rules abuse" to win. The trick being mentioned isn't even relevant in the vast, vast majority of games.
(4) Banning Scrap Trawler neuters the deck. May be necessary, but it's far more Splinter Twin than Summer Bloom.
The bigger statement, and I've seen a couple people touch on this, is in WHY we saw a resurgence in KCI. In a hyper linear format where decks aren't playing great interaction, it's the best. GBx and UWx are tough match-ups; Phoenix, Dredge, and whatever other non-interactive decks aren't. If KCI is lining up for a ban (and it looks like it is), that doesn't fix the meta spiral to linear decks.
Side note: I wouldn't be surprised if part of KCI's success at the GP is opponents' general unfamiliarity with the combo (judging by this thread). That wouldn't apply to the toppest of tables, but even your 75th percentile player doesn't seem to understand how to disrupt it well.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Why are interactive decks not seeing success?
Spirits
Partially because the non-interactive decks are getting so good at attacking on multiple axes, or fighting through hate. I watched both the GP and SCG event today, so I don't remember which it was, but there was a game where KCI won handily through two Relics on the same turn. The deck cannot be stopped with 1-of GY wipes, and can work through even Stony with the recent adaptation of Sai.
There doesn't exist hate that is widely relevant enough, as well as strong enough, to allow interactive decks to reliably compete against enough of the huge field that is Modern. There are just too many non-interactive decks for the interactive decks to keep up with.
Thats kind of what I was thinking. Perhaps if Esper was good enough (Permission, Removal, Hate) it could do the job.
Phoenix loses to GDS for example.
KCI has issues with the combo of Stony and RIP.
Is that what it would take to cover enough of the field of issues?
Spirits
Marshall Sutcliff mentioned something like this on stream, stating something like sure, you could tune to beat KCI and bring in extra Stonys and RIPs or whatever, and then you only see it 1-3 times in a tournament and lose to everything else.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
In order to halt the slipping of Modern into Legacy-lite, I'm pretty sure the only option is a straight-to-Modern product where the Modern version of FoW can come from. The only thing Standard can continue to give us are more Arclight Phoenixes and Scrap Trawlers, which enable or create even more non-interactive strategies with older cards.
Maybe thats the path, and we need to see the next few sets, I dont know?
As it is, I do have a positive rate against KCI, but I get literally SMOKED by GDS, with Knightfall, and I'm probably in the positive against Tron, and even with Storm.
The hate is there, but you need to present a clock + the hate, to even stand a chance in Modern.
Spirits
In Vintage the "fair" decks NEEDED to slot 4+ gy hate AND 4+ artifact hate in their SBs. The reason they didn't lose to the rest of the field is because of cards like Force of Will and Wasteland being main-deck answers to the fringe shenanigans.
In Modern you can slot 4+ gy hate and 4+ artifact hate in the SB. In fact I think that's probably the right thing at the moment. But you still need enough answers to the rest of the field, which includes multiple strategies. Field of Ruin is a good start if you're in 2 colors. But we need a 0-mana answer like Force to be able to contain the shenanigans. When fair decks can't contain the field because they're focused on the other top dogs, we get results like today's.
I'm not necessarily advocating for Force in Modern. But we need something like that. We need something to help police the format instead of just banning things once the meta gets solved and results in degeneracy.
Maybe the answer really is "unban Twin."
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
KCI (or Phoenix) doing that honestly shouldn't be too surprising. Relic isn't great GY hate unless it's T1 and you follow with a clock or additional hate (Sphere, RIP, Stony).
I think the challenge is "fair" decks are getting stretched too thin to cover all the different linear strategies between Dredge, Phoenix, KCI, and other aggro. Most answers are purely SB material and that usually means trying to win G2 and G3. We really need more Knight of Autumn and K-Command-type cards that aren't embarrassing to play maindeck.
People make fun of me for repeatedly saying this for three years, but what other solution exists that doesn't rely on banning a dozen cards, or continuing to aimlessly hope something comes from a new set? Especially after new sets have shown themselves time and time again to disproportionately create/help fast/linear decks?
In addition to fixing one of the greatest wrongs of the past, it is simple and elegant.
We saw KCI win on camera through double Relic, including one of them on turn 1.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
It would be sad to see an entire archetype disappear when it can be reigned in instead by reducing its consistency.
If the deck presents logistical issues, and only if, then I would advocate KCI itself as the correct target.
But if this is not the case, and it is just too consistent at assembling the combo, then I would suggest Stirrings instead, which eliminates no entire archetypes but reduces the consistency of various hated archetypes such as Lantern, Tron, Amulet, and KCI simultaneously. Just as Ponder and Preordain went away to reduce the consistency of a large swath of blue/red combo decks, I think this would be the correct option.
Thats making the claim that a deck would be problematic, and thats a stretch. Its more than a stretch, but honestly do we want to even open that discussion? I dont.
Spirits
That assumes that the deck a) was actually problematic when it was banned; a point of controversy that has been discussed for three years, and b) would still be problematic today, in a considerably faster and more powerful format, in which it got no meaningful upgrades.
Both of those are very strong assumptions to make.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I didn't watch but I believe it. You need T1 Relic plus pressure because it's very weak grave hate. If I had to guess, the KCI player didn't cantrip until he was set up T4+ with Trawler; opponent has to keep up 1 mana in the meantime. Then KCI player starts carefully looping for value to force the crack or the value can pull him ahead.
The moral of the story is Relic is not great GY hate against any deck that can get incremental value out of their yard. It might buy you a few turns.
Naturally can play Thoughtseize, Surgical Extraction, Tarmogoyf, Lingering Souls, Stony Silence, and Rest in Peace. Has disruption, clock, and the ever important White hate, and yet when is the last time Junk did anything?
Why is it not seeing any play?
Spirits
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate