Oh and people are not paying attention (or dont care about fair decks, which is fine) if they are not aware of this. Terminus is more than any other card or deck in the format, going to prevent fair creature based decks from ever seeing real play again.
Yep. An instant speed bottom of the library wrath that costs almost nothing and is now much easier to set up is both required for control to thrive and completely damaging to any other fair deck. I know control is supposed to best fair midrange decks, but it's like robbing a liquor store with a rocket launcher. This leads to the ultimate thought that possibly this format has reached it's diversity limits. All of these decks cannot coexist, there is no balance point, and as long as Terminus is on one end and wildly fast and consistent combo/aggro (this is almost just one classification at this point) is on the other then where is this format actually going? Is anyone satisfied at this point? I've sold all of my modern staples both in anticipation of a new non-rotating format and because I just don't enjoy the gameplay. Playing against stirrings decks isn't fun. Playing against some variation of a graveyard recursive aggro deck isn't fun. I like interacting, I like playing chess with my opponent, and I've had to come to terms that this format just isn't for me anymore.
This. I love how stirrings decks can keep mediocre hands and get to play a copy on t1 and t2 and dig 10 cards deep but U decks have to play opt. God forbid you're playing a fair midrange strategy and you have literal no access to card filtering.
This leads to the ultimate thought that possibly this format has reached it's diversity limits. All of these decks cannot coexist, there is no balance point, and as long as Terminus is on one end and wildly fast and consistent combo/aggro (this is almost just one classification at this point) is on the other then where is this format actually going? Is anyone satisfied at this point?
Cutting down for space, but this is exactly it and as I went through the 'stages of grief' over the 4 Top 8 KCI slots.
1. This is outrageous, we need a ban!
2. Wait, what would a ban even do?
3. Wait, is 1 ban enough?
4. I dont think its even close to enough.
5. We need to ban 6+ cards.
As long as Terminus Lotto is required for 'Control' to live, true fair midrange, is dead.
As long as decks are throwing up on the table for 10+ damage on turn 2, Terminus Lotto, is required.
In the middle, you have decks that run from Burn, to Dredge, to KCI, to Tron, and there is nothing that can even remotely compete with all of them, and the 2 poles (Terminus and Looting) of the format.
I know what I believe the answer to be, but people refuse to think about it logically.
Cutting down for space, but this is exactly it and as I went through the 'stages of grief' over the 4 Top 8 KCI slots.
1. This is outrageous, we need a ban!
2. Wait, what would a ban even do?
3. Wait, is 1 ban enough?
4. I dont think its even close to enough.
5. We need to ban 6+ cards.
As long as Terminus Lotto is required for 'Control' to live, true fair midrange, is dead.
As long as decks are throwing up on the table for 10+ damage on turn 2, Terminus Lotto, is required.
In the middle, you have decks that run from Burn, to Dredge, to KCI, to Tron, and there is nothing that can even remotely compete with all of them, and the 2 poles (Terminus and Looting) of the format.
I know what I believe the answer to be, but people refuse to think about it logically.
Do you really think the format would survive 6+ bans though? That's a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people.
Cutting down for space, but this is exactly it and as I went through the 'stages of grief' over the 4 Top 8 KCI slots.
1. This is outrageous, we need a ban!
2. Wait, what would a ban even do?
3. Wait, is 1 ban enough?
4. I dont think its even close to enough.
5. We need to ban 6+ cards.
As long as Terminus Lotto is required for 'Control' to live, true fair midrange, is dead.
As long as decks are throwing up on the table for 10+ damage on turn 2, Terminus Lotto, is required.
In the middle, you have decks that run from Burn, to Dredge, to KCI, to Tron, and there is nothing that can even remotely compete with all of them, and the 2 poles (Terminus and Looting) of the format.
I know what I believe the answer to be, but people refuse to think about it logically.
Do you really think the format would survive 6+ bans though? That's a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people.
No, I dont. I do however think that is what it would take to bring us back to center, or 2 unban's that are variously felt to 'do nothing' or would 'break the format'.
At that point you are literally talking about nuking the entire format in order to satisfy...fans of jund?
No, not Jund fans, Jund, Junk, Bant, GW, Big Zoo, heck even Mardu (fair versions). None of those decks, or anything like them is ever going to see play in Modern again, unless something fundamental changes in the format.
You have 2 ends. Looting, with its explosive 'cheat into play' decks, and then you have Terminus keeping them in check, well I should say PRETENDING to keep them in check, because it doesnt.
Due to those poles, you have anyone even remotely pretending to play fair, getting just dumpstered, and you then have the decks that linear and powerful enough to not care about either pole all that much, and still hang with the big kid table.
As long as people are cool with Looting, Burn, Storm, Dredge, Tron, KCI, Terminus. Thats going to be the format, I dont see any reasonable way around it at this point.
Note: REASONABLE. We need to either unban SFM and Twin, which some think is unreasonable, or we need to ban multiple cards, which I think would be bad for players, but probably better for the format in the abstract.
I can understand that the miracle mechanic is quite annoying and feels really unfair, because it actually is, but you have to know that you'll be having your board nuked sooner or later... You should need to play around that.
You do realize that 'playing around it' is impossible when it can be both 'planned' by the UW player, spontaneous (Turn 2 or 3) or triggered on your own turn?
There is a fundamental difference and its disingenuous for you to pretend otherwise.
The good ole if someone has a complaint about Modern they must either be an upset Jund player or disenfranchised Twin apologist comment.
I can take it. At this point its expected.
Just think about it folks, and think about if you actually find this Modern fine, or what it would take to change it. I'm going to play some Overwatch.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
I didn't say it was easy. And I'm well aware that it's really tough to play around something like that. What I meant is that you have to extra careful to not overextend.
Ultimately, Gx decks would be playing different cards if they were allowed to worry about Control or Terminus. You can either play around it with the printing of leave the battlefield triggers (like Thragtusk has), having flash threats, playing more Planeswalkers...
Right, I can just slow down, against the deck that once it gets to the point of having enough mana, can Terminus, Teferi, and lock out any 'fair' deck for the game.
Come on man. I've played the deck, I know how it works.
Terminus crushing Jund (not that I even play Jund) certainly is not helping the deck that runs Discard, Removal, and appropriate kinds of hate for Lootings decks.
Again, its all hypothetical, I dont think the format would survive, but if you wanted to actually curate the format appropriately?
I do believe that is what it would take, and Terminus would be part of it. UWR existed fine with Verdict, Wrath, and Settle.
I would recommend trying drastic things right now. Main deck RIP, Main deck Leyline's and see what happens. We are reaching a point in the meta where you have to wonder if this isn't the correct route. The top tier decks require disruption + Hate + a clock. All during T1-4. That's a lot to ask for on curve. When linear decks can ignore this, due to them being so resilient, it may be time for midrange-fair decks to just jam this kind of hate. I tried 4 main decl RIP in my extinct Bant Eldrazi deck, and it did exacttly what I wanted. Nuke these things asap, and as much as we want to try and complain. We need to try things out. For those of competing/grinding there is little reason to not play the established tier 1. That's unfortunate because that does mean modern is not as diverse as we are told.
Midrange is now allocated to Izzet Pheonix. Let that sink in. GB/x, GW/x are not even in close atm.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
The discussion of the "salty jund players" was born out of the "need to ban" the whole format. Nuking the entire format including the "Fair Midrange deck killer" would just make Jund the best deck again. Maybe I'm missing something... but that's what it sounds like.
How about we don't broad brush generalize a whole group of Modern players as salty whenever someone suggests a large change to the format? I'm a Midranged fan and I don't want to nuke the format.
This is why ban-talk scares me. It convinces people they can just create a format that suits them by gutting entire archetypes at the expense of people who enjoy those archetypes. That's also why I will always be more in favor of printing new tools that allow less-strong archetypes to compete with what is currently at the top. But I guess emotions can run high when we get 4x of a single deck at a GP T8.
The discussion of the "salty jund players" was born out of the "need to ban" the whole format. Nuking the entire format including the "Fair Midrange deck killer" would just make Jund the best deck again. Maybe I'm missing something... but that's what it sounds like.
How about we don't broad brush generalize a whole group of Modern players as salty whenever someone suggests a large change to the format? I'm a Midranged fan and I don't want to nuke the format.
I didn't call anyone salty to begin with. I didn't say every midrange player would like the format nuked. All I said/implied was that for someone to want to ban 6+ cards while saying that Terminus is killing BGx must be a Jund player looking to have it's deck back.
We honestly still don't need to ban anything right now. People are acting like it's a foregone conclusion that everything is on fire and something must be done, but KCI still isn't doing anything like what Bloom Titan or the Eldrazi were doing before those decks ate bans. It's just another resilient combo decks that looks unstoppable because people are finally just starting to pick it up and aren't as focused on beating it yet. Seriously, every article about KCI is why you should be playing it, instead of ways to attack it. It's still dependent on resolving a 4 mana artifact or a 3 mana creature and casting spells at sorcery speed to win.
We honestly still don't need to ban anything right now. People are acting like it's a foregone conclusion that everything is on fire and something must be done, but KCI still isn't doing anything like what Bloom Titan or the Eldrazi were doing before those decks ate bans. It's just another resilient combo decks that looks unstoppable because people are finally just starting to pick it up and aren't as focused on beating it yet. Seriously, every article about KCI is why you should be playing it, instead of ways to attack it. It's still dependent on resolving a 4 mana artifact or a 3 mana creature and casting spells at sorcery speed to win.
It's actually almost exactly what Summer Bloom was doing... It's a fast combo deck that is difficult to interact with and is easily capable of winning through multiple levels of targeted hate. It's a weird and complex deck that players may be hesitant to pick up because A) it's difficult to play and B) it's likely getting banned. On top of all that, it has been the single most successful competitive deck of the past year and has grossly over-performed relative to its meta share. Like 2016 Dredge, it creates a "battle of sideboards," and like its Eggs predecessor, it creates truly awful gameplay, awful coverage, and long, uninteresting turns that invite players to write F6 on a piece of paper and walk away.
The problem is that there is so much ban mania during all periods of time, even healthy metagame. So when we have a legitimate issue (e.g. KCI). it's hard to have a serious conversation about the topic. There is simply no context to justify this discussion of multiple bans. It's just craft-your-own-format speculation with basically no grounding in Wizard's past decisions or available evidence. Rather than engage this too much and legitimize it through acknowledgement, I'm just going to try and steer the discussion back towards KCI.
In that spirit, KCI is the best deck in Modern and it's not very close. It dramatically overperforms at big events and we have substantial GP-level data to support that. It is not simply one of many powerful things you can do in Modern. It's a deck that somehow both promotes a battle of sideboards and still posts extraordinary results. People can make all kinds of rhetorical claims about how "broken" things like Dredge, H1, Storm, Burn, UWx Miracles, Tron, etc. are, but those decks simply do not come close to the performance metrics of KCI.
Yep. An instant speed bottom of the library wrath that costs almost nothing and is now much easier to set up is both required for control to thrive and completely damaging to any other fair deck. I know control is supposed to best fair midrange decks, but it's like robbing a liquor store with a rocket launcher. This leads to the ultimate thought that possibly this format has reached it's diversity limits. All of these decks cannot coexist, there is no balance point, and as long as Terminus is on one end and wildly fast and consistent combo/aggro (this is almost just one classification at this point) is on the other then where is this format actually going? Is anyone satisfied at this point? I've sold all of my modern staples both in anticipation of a new non-rotating format and because I just don't enjoy the gameplay. Playing against stirrings decks isn't fun. Playing against some variation of a graveyard recursive aggro deck isn't fun. I like interacting, I like playing chess with my opponent, and I've had to come to terms that this format just isn't for me anymore.
Cutting down for space, but this is exactly it and as I went through the 'stages of grief' over the 4 Top 8 KCI slots.
1. This is outrageous, we need a ban!
2. Wait, what would a ban even do?
3. Wait, is 1 ban enough?
4. I dont think its even close to enough.
5. We need to ban 6+ cards.
As long as Terminus Lotto is required for 'Control' to live, true fair midrange, is dead.
As long as decks are throwing up on the table for 10+ damage on turn 2, Terminus Lotto, is required.
In the middle, you have decks that run from Burn, to Dredge, to KCI, to Tron, and there is nothing that can even remotely compete with all of them, and the 2 poles (Terminus and Looting) of the format.
I know what I believe the answer to be, but people refuse to think about it logically.
Spirits
Commander
U Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
RG Zilortha, Strength Incarnate
WU Yorion, Sky Nomad
I am dubious though on if Control can survive no terminus even if looting, stirrings, etc goes as well.
No, I dont. I do however think that is what it would take to bring us back to center, or 2 unban's that are variously felt to 'do nothing' or would 'break the format'.
No, not Jund fans, Jund, Junk, Bant, GW, Big Zoo, heck even Mardu (fair versions). None of those decks, or anything like them is ever going to see play in Modern again, unless something fundamental changes in the format.
You have 2 ends. Looting, with its explosive 'cheat into play' decks, and then you have Terminus keeping them in check, well I should say PRETENDING to keep them in check, because it doesnt.
Due to those poles, you have anyone even remotely pretending to play fair, getting just dumpstered, and you then have the decks that linear and powerful enough to not care about either pole all that much, and still hang with the big kid table.
As long as people are cool with Looting, Burn, Storm, Dredge, Tron, KCI, Terminus. Thats going to be the format, I dont see any reasonable way around it at this point.
Note: REASONABLE. We need to either unban SFM and Twin, which some think is unreasonable, or we need to ban multiple cards, which I think would be bad for players, but probably better for the format in the abstract.
Spirits
You do realize that 'playing around it' is impossible when it can be both 'planned' by the UW player, spontaneous (Turn 2 or 3) or triggered on your own turn?
There is a fundamental difference and its disingenuous for you to pretend otherwise.
Spirits
I can take it. At this point its expected.
Just think about it folks, and think about if you actually find this Modern fine, or what it would take to change it. I'm going to play some Overwatch.
Spirits
Newsflash: Wanting Midrange to be able to compete in Modern does not equate to wanting Midrange to be the best archetype.
Right, I can just slow down, against the deck that once it gets to the point of having enough mana, can Terminus, Teferi, and lock out any 'fair' deck for the game.
Come on man. I've played the deck, I know how it works.
Spirits
Again, its all hypothetical, I dont think the format would survive, but if you wanted to actually curate the format appropriately?
I do believe that is what it would take, and Terminus would be part of it. UWR existed fine with Verdict, Wrath, and Settle.
Spirits
Midrange is now allocated to Izzet Pheonix. Let that sink in. GB/x, GW/x are not even in close atm.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
How about we don't broad brush generalize a whole group of Modern players as salty whenever someone suggests a large change to the format? I'm a Midranged fan and I don't want to nuke the format.
Without the speed of the lootings decks, or the consistency/cheap dig of Stirrings, what beats Terminus?
Spirits
I don't know but I rather see if anything beats it before maybe outright killing Control and leaving it worse off then is now.
Excessive, and incorrect.
#FreeTwin, and you dont need to ban anything.
Spirits
It's actually almost exactly what Summer Bloom was doing... It's a fast combo deck that is difficult to interact with and is easily capable of winning through multiple levels of targeted hate. It's a weird and complex deck that players may be hesitant to pick up because A) it's difficult to play and B) it's likely getting banned. On top of all that, it has been the single most successful competitive deck of the past year and has grossly over-performed relative to its meta share. Like 2016 Dredge, it creates a "battle of sideboards," and like its Eggs predecessor, it creates truly awful gameplay, awful coverage, and long, uninteresting turns that invite players to write F6 on a piece of paper and walk away.
The deck can't be banned soon enough.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
In that spirit, KCI is the best deck in Modern and it's not very close. It dramatically overperforms at big events and we have substantial GP-level data to support that. It is not simply one of many powerful things you can do in Modern. It's a deck that somehow both promotes a battle of sideboards and still posts extraordinary results. People can make all kinds of rhetorical claims about how "broken" things like Dredge, H1, Storm, Burn, UWx Miracles, Tron, etc. are, but those decks simply do not come close to the performance metrics of KCI.