Yeah, the gearhulks are of the Cataclysmic variety.
I think the synergy with restos, far outweighs the awkwardness of "legendary". It's the list I'm going to play Stoneforge in if she (ever) gets unbanned.
I think it'll be the best shell for her instead of Esper or Abzan, but that's a dream.
Funny thing by the way. I just took that list for a quick spin and my first match with it was against UW Control. The thing is that guy was on Sphinx's Revelation/Elixir of Immortality. I stood absolutely no chance against that and was destroyed 0-2. He was a nice guy though and we joked about it in the end. UW brothers stand together after all.
Now I know at least that the "mirror" can be problematic if they are on the card advantage plan.
I feel that having decks that you either just beat or lose to is an interesting part of modern. did you run hot and just get lucky all day, did you face a few bad matches or did you play tight?
I mean it's OK. The UW list with Angels and Walls is clearly tailored against more aggressive decks. It's obvious you take a beating then when playing against the probably most hardcore control version of UW that is possible. I think that Elixir of Immortality was actually the only nonland permanent in the entire deck. Instead of Snapcaster Mage he had Mission Briefing and he had maindeck Hour of Revelation
Pretty fun and spicy but unfortunately I forgot to ask for a list. If I ever meet him again I really have to that.
yeah its hard to imagine there being any comparable control finisher in the future. chandra ToD is also pretty up there in power level as well.
id imagine people are already speccing on cards for this new format. if you guess correctly on how far back wizards is willing to go sets wise you could potentially get a nice payoff.
like say they start off at origins. jace VP was in that set, and that card was powerful enough to be 80+ dollars in its heyday.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I'm pretty sure standard plus is going to be everything Ixalan and up. They have no reason to start in a broken standard season that nearly killed everyones interest in the format. Ixalan and up gives the mana-base, the best balance we've had in ages, and a fairly minimal ban list. The only thing on it is Rampaging Ferocidon, and that card is likely safe in a bigger format.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'm pretty sure standard plus is going to be everything Ixalan and up. They have no reason to start in a broken standard season that nearly killed everyones interest in the format. Ixalan and up gives the mana-base, the best balance we've had in ages, and a fairly minimal ban list. The only thing on it is Rampaging Ferocidon, and that card is likely safe in a bigger format.
stuff that seemed busted in whatever standard format isnt necessarily a problem given the card pool is large enough. for instance how do you think some UBx scarab god deck would fair against a fully powered temur energy deck, or a GBx delirium deck, or saheeli combo (probably would be banned at the outset though). how does teferi stack up comparatively? etc.
powerful stuff can be balanced out with other powerful stuff. its sorta the premise for non-rotating formats.
not to say that they wont start at ixalan, however if they do so i think it will be in part because its just easier. ive made my opinion known about how dubious i am about this new format considering how much wizards has on their plate dev wise. observing their statements and actions over this last year or so up through the open beta launch of arena; im lead to believe they are reacting instead of having some grand plan years in the making.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
We know they got Kaladesh forward programmed in, we have speculation on other stuff seems a shame to waste that code but yeah Kaladesh is going to come in with some bans if we start there. The question is do they just port the Standard Ban List ie if you were banned in Standard your banned in Standard Plus or do they loosen it up.
Origins would be an interesting starting place. Skipping Tarkir is guaranteed since they do not want fetch/shock mana base or the broken delve cards.
All of the broken things at that point would be from Kaladesh block: Saheeli Felidar combo and Aetherworks Marvel. That would only require 2 bans. Far fewer than the starting banned list of modern.
what about the roflcopter (smuuglers copter)? or emrakul the promised end from when GB delirium was hit? or ramumap red? or RB midrange/aggro? maybe there is some tokens deck using gideon ally of zendikar, which was a beast in standard.
that was my point, who can really say for sure which of those decks is more busted without just sitting down and playing them against eachother. though i could see them just hitting attune with the aether to curb energy decks across the board. energy was a seriously stupid mechanic.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
i read somewhere that there was datamined stuff as far back as origins in the closed beta. cant verify if that is true though.
I know they did test on Origins and/or Shadow the question was though did they program everything in back then or just did a bit for test runs.
I mean Origins is nice purely cause naming a format Origins fits right next to names like Vintage, Legacy and to a lesser extent Modern.
Well to be fair it should be pretty easy to take the best decks from Standard and just play them against each other to test. That doesn't totally answer the question though cause how much better does GB Delirium get with Trophy in it? Or mixing in some vehicles Green is poor in the air but vehicles really help sure up that weakness. Although I have read the suggestion that decks should be allowed provided every card is in the same standard set which I suppose is easy enough to verify in a game.
what about the roflcopter (smuuglers copter)? or emrakul the promised end from when GB delirium was hit? or ramumap red? or RB midrange/aggro? maybe there is some tokens deck using gideon ally of zendikar, which was a beast in standard.
that was my point, who can really say for sure which of those decks is more busted without just sitting down and playing them against eachother. though i could see them just hitting attune with the aether to curb energy decks across the board. energy was a seriously stupid mechanic.
I don't think any of those other things compares to turn 4 Emrakul / Umalogs or infinite cats. My personal feeling is that all of the other possible decks in the format would be able to contain one another.
Archetypes that I could envision existing in such a format:
. Temur energy
. UWx Teferi control
. BG Delirium
. Eldrazi Ramp (with Shrine of the Forsaken Gods doing a Tron impression)
. Ramunap Red
. Mardu Vehicles
. Paradoxical Outcome combo
. UBx Scarab God control
. Tokens deck with Gideon
. UW Spirits
And probably plenty others that would be brand new as a result of mixing these sets together. So no, I don't think it would be necessary to ban any additional cards at the inception of the format
Knightfall is a great deck for that and is probably the most 'twin like' deck that is competitive.
I really want to play some of this now. I can never stick with a deck for more than a day or 2 if I play a ton of matches with it, always chasing that 'grass is greener' feel, but I'm curious what we will get out of UG and UW (which is actually and GU and WU on cards...weird...) maybe I should just bite the bullet on RUG Scapeshift one of these days, but I just cant bring myself to do it.
EDIT: And then you run into bloody Mill...rofl
EDIT x 2: But the ladies pull through and the hero is victorious!
Rug Scaoeahift ha been putting up some numbers recently with currently 2 builds, black splash for better sideboard cards, and white splash for Wargate + Prismatic Omen. I personally have played the B version and tbh I think the deck is pretty good. I was always a fan of old school rug, but with BTL, it's a pretty decent deck. I feel last weekend on mtgo I kinda got unlucky with constantly drawing my one ofs I'd rather be using BTL to cast , but in paper I did pretty good
Rug Scaoeahift ha been putting up some numbers recently with currently 2 builds, black splash for better sideboard cards, and white splash for Wargate + Prismatic Omen. I personally have played the B version and tbh I think the deck is pretty good. I was always a fan of old school rug, but with BTL, it's a pretty decent deck. I feel last weekend on mtgo I kinda got unlucky with constantly drawing my one ofs I'd rather be using BTL to cast , but in paper I did pretty good
Nice. I haven't tried any Blue form of Scapeshift ever since going to RG Breach and then Titanshift. I still am a bit interested, but I don't know if the Blue versions add anything to the deck.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
So your telling me my dreams of a playable Esper deck could come true then?
So Teferi and Scarab God in the same deck. Hmm that sounds dirty and fun for the person who is playing it.
But you might already get your wish when the next set comes out. Currently the mana is horrible for Esper but with Hallowed Fountain and Godless Shrine it would be way better. After that it will just be the question if the red or the black cards are better. Expansion // Explosion is pretty good.
Rug Scaoeahift ha been putting up some numbers recently with currently 2 builds, black splash for better sideboard cards, and white splash for Wargate + Prismatic Omen. I personally have played the B version and tbh I think the deck is pretty good. I was always a fan of old school rug, but with BTL, it's a pretty decent deck. I feel last weekend on mtgo I kinda got unlucky with constantly drawing my one ofs I'd rather be using BTL to cast , but in paper I did pretty good
Nice. I haven't tried any Blue form of Scapeshift ever since going to RG Breach and then Titanshift. I still am a bit interested, but I don't know if the Blue versions add anything to the deck.
4 Cryptic Command would be my argument. But seriously you can buy yourself some time against faster decks and not just get wrecked by them.
So, the next Pro Tour is on Limited and Standard Constructed. Surely no bans/unbans for another 4 months to come(unless if KCI needs to be banned somehow).
currently, there's no reason for any bans.
unbans, I could potentially see maybe one? As you mentioned, it's still unlikely without a ProTour though, as WotC seemed to indicate that they'd like to use unbans as a way to freshen up the format or provide a pressure valve, rather than just to 'throw us a bone', so to speak.
I can still hope though. SFM is the 'safe' one, so I guess that's the likelihood if anything.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Blue based Scapeshift hasn't been a thing for years. What makes it any better than Titanshift variants?
I'd say its better vs other combo decks than RG Shift. The reason is Remand, Bolt, and Cryptic to buy you time. You also have the Madcap Experiment + Platinum Emperion combo to slow them down. With buying time with remand, you can also use your sideboard cards like Slaughter Games. The major problem with RG Titanshift is that its just slower than decks like Storm and KCI with minimal card draw so you basically just pray you hit a sideboard card like Relic or Damping Sphere or you lose. On top of that, BTL is basically a toolbox style deck with spells, so even if you aren't at 7 lands, you can use BTL to cast whatever you need for the moment.
Few problems with the deck includes similar weaknesses against aggro decks, but not as bad as RG Titanshift. The mana base is so hard, and you really need to meticulously plan out which lands you are going to use. Having Cryptic Command, Damnation, and Anger of the Gods in the same deck is not easy to use, but the idea is to really cast those cards using BTL rather than having them in your hand, which is why I said I think i kinda got unlucky since I kept drawing my single Damnation.
Another problem is that thier seondary gameplan just isnt that great. Platinum Emperion isn't always the best secondary gameplan, and fighting through a Blood Moon or Surgical Extraction on your Valakut/ Scapeshift is a lot harder. One thing people really don't understand about the RG Titanshift version is that it can have a decent game vs Blood Moon and doesn't rely on Valakut as much as one might first think.
I actually didn't play vs other Control decks, namly UW, but I imagine it's not that great. RG version traditionally is good vs them, and Platinum Emperion just loses to Path, so you basically have to win a counter war, which is probably not happening. I think the idea behind why it was good in the past was because you would have a lot more lands than your control opponent. However, with the format being much faster than it used to be, the deck isn't geared towards beating other control decks, imo, and RG version is just probably better in that regard. I think the MU used to be amazing back before Feld of Ruin but im not sure nowadays
Lastly, if felt a lot worse vs discard decks like Jund. Discard is usually not too bad in RG Titanshift because the whole deck is super redundant and most of the time your top decks are better than your Jund opponent. But with the BTL version it isn't the case, and your Remands kind of look silly vs Thoughtseize and IoK. I plan on playing it more for sure, and its super fun, I suggest you try it out. I was on the Black version, but I might buy the rest for the white version. Prismatic Omen can be really good especially since having your lands become Lightning Bolts in a control deck seems pretty sweet.
Indeed it's very interesting! Something of this type has been floating around in the collective consciousness of the modern meta for about a month now, and we're just starting to see it get results.
Probably worth your time to check it out, if you have the cards. I can almost guarantee that any potential list is only about 75% and we should expect a lot more refinement over the coming weeks/months. But as a fun way to build phoenix, I quite like the idea and it seems others do too.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
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Funny thing by the way. I just took that list for a quick spin and my first match with it was against UW Control. The thing is that guy was on Sphinx's Revelation/Elixir of Immortality. I stood absolutely no chance against that and was destroyed 0-2. He was a nice guy though and we joked about it in the end. UW brothers stand together after all.
Now I know at least that the "mirror" can be problematic if they are on the card advantage plan.
Spirits
Pretty fun and spicy but unfortunately I forgot to ask for a list. If I ever meet him again I really have to that.
yeah its hard to imagine there being any comparable control finisher in the future. chandra ToD is also pretty up there in power level as well.
id imagine people are already speccing on cards for this new format. if you guess correctly on how far back wizards is willing to go sets wise you could potentially get a nice payoff.
like say they start off at origins. jace VP was in that set, and that card was powerful enough to be 80+ dollars in its heyday.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Hazoret
Teferi
Scarab God
There I just solved the next eternal format in three seconds.
stuff that seemed busted in whatever standard format isnt necessarily a problem given the card pool is large enough. for instance how do you think some UBx scarab god deck would fair against a fully powered temur energy deck, or a GBx delirium deck, or saheeli combo (probably would be banned at the outset though). how does teferi stack up comparatively? etc.
powerful stuff can be balanced out with other powerful stuff. its sorta the premise for non-rotating formats.
not to say that they wont start at ixalan, however if they do so i think it will be in part because its just easier. ive made my opinion known about how dubious i am about this new format considering how much wizards has on their plate dev wise. observing their statements and actions over this last year or so up through the open beta launch of arena; im lead to believe they are reacting instead of having some grand plan years in the making.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)All of the broken things at that point would be from Kaladesh block: Saheeli Felidar combo and Aetherworks Marvel. That would only require 2 bans. Far fewer than the starting banned list of modern.
that was my point, who can really say for sure which of those decks is more busted without just sitting down and playing them against eachother. though i could see them just hitting attune with the aether to curb energy decks across the board. energy was a seriously stupid mechanic.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I know they did test on Origins and/or Shadow the question was though did they program everything in back then or just did a bit for test runs.
I mean Origins is nice purely cause naming a format Origins fits right next to names like Vintage, Legacy and to a lesser extent Modern.
Well to be fair it should be pretty easy to take the best decks from Standard and just play them against each other to test. That doesn't totally answer the question though cause how much better does GB Delirium get with Trophy in it? Or mixing in some vehicles Green is poor in the air but vehicles really help sure up that weakness. Although I have read the suggestion that decks should be allowed provided every card is in the same standard set which I suppose is easy enough to verify in a game.
Copter is definitely banned day one though.
I don't think any of those other things compares to turn 4 Emrakul / Umalogs or infinite cats. My personal feeling is that all of the other possible decks in the format would be able to contain one another.
Archetypes that I could envision existing in such a format:
. Temur energy
. UWx Teferi control
. BG Delirium
. Eldrazi Ramp (with Shrine of the Forsaken Gods doing a Tron impression)
. Ramunap Red
. Mardu Vehicles
. Paradoxical Outcome combo
. UBx Scarab God control
. Tokens deck with Gideon
. UW Spirits
And probably plenty others that would be brand new as a result of mixing these sets together. So no, I don't think it would be necessary to ban any additional cards at the inception of the format
Getting back to Modern.
I really want to play some of this now. I can never stick with a deck for more than a day or 2 if I play a ton of matches with it, always chasing that 'grass is greener' feel, but I'm curious what we will get out of UG and UW (which is actually and GU and WU on cards...weird...) maybe I should just bite the bullet on RUG Scapeshift one of these days, but I just cant bring myself to do it.
EDIT: And then you run into bloody Mill...rofl
EDIT x 2: But the ladies pull through and the hero is victorious!
Spirits
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Nice. I haven't tried any Blue form of Scapeshift ever since going to RG Breach and then Titanshift. I still am a bit interested, but I don't know if the Blue versions add anything to the deck.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
So Teferi and Scarab God in the same deck. Hmm that sounds dirty and fun for the person who is playing it.
But you might already get your wish when the next set comes out. Currently the mana is horrible for Esper but with Hallowed Fountain and Godless Shrine it would be way better. After that it will just be the question if the red or the black cards are better. Expansion // Explosion is pretty good.
4 Cryptic Command would be my argument. But seriously you can buy yourself some time against faster decks and not just get wrecked by them.
currently, there's no reason for any bans.
unbans, I could potentially see maybe one? As you mentioned, it's still unlikely without a ProTour though, as WotC seemed to indicate that they'd like to use unbans as a way to freshen up the format or provide a pressure valve, rather than just to 'throw us a bone', so to speak.
I can still hope though. SFM is the 'safe' one, so I guess that's the likelihood if anything.
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20763&d=337142&f=MO
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
I'd say its better vs other combo decks than RG Shift. The reason is Remand, Bolt, and Cryptic to buy you time. You also have the Madcap Experiment + Platinum Emperion combo to slow them down. With buying time with remand, you can also use your sideboard cards like Slaughter Games. The major problem with RG Titanshift is that its just slower than decks like Storm and KCI with minimal card draw so you basically just pray you hit a sideboard card like Relic or Damping Sphere or you lose. On top of that, BTL is basically a toolbox style deck with spells, so even if you aren't at 7 lands, you can use BTL to cast whatever you need for the moment.
Few problems with the deck includes similar weaknesses against aggro decks, but not as bad as RG Titanshift. The mana base is so hard, and you really need to meticulously plan out which lands you are going to use. Having Cryptic Command, Damnation, and Anger of the Gods in the same deck is not easy to use, but the idea is to really cast those cards using BTL rather than having them in your hand, which is why I said I think i kinda got unlucky since I kept drawing my single Damnation.
Another problem is that thier seondary gameplan just isnt that great. Platinum Emperion isn't always the best secondary gameplan, and fighting through a Blood Moon or Surgical Extraction on your Valakut/ Scapeshift is a lot harder. One thing people really don't understand about the RG Titanshift version is that it can have a decent game vs Blood Moon and doesn't rely on Valakut as much as one might first think.
I actually didn't play vs other Control decks, namly UW, but I imagine it's not that great. RG version traditionally is good vs them, and Platinum Emperion just loses to Path, so you basically have to win a counter war, which is probably not happening. I think the idea behind why it was good in the past was because you would have a lot more lands than your control opponent. However, with the format being much faster than it used to be, the deck isn't geared towards beating other control decks, imo, and RG version is just probably better in that regard. I think the MU used to be amazing back before Feld of Ruin but im not sure nowadays
Lastly, if felt a lot worse vs discard decks like Jund. Discard is usually not too bad in RG Titanshift because the whole deck is super redundant and most of the time your top decks are better than your Jund opponent. But with the BTL version it isn't the case, and your Remands kind of look silly vs Thoughtseize and IoK. I plan on playing it more for sure, and its super fun, I suggest you try it out. I was on the Black version, but I might buy the rest for the white version. Prismatic Omen can be really good especially since having your lands become Lightning Bolts in a control deck seems pretty sweet.
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Indeed it's very interesting! Something of this type has been floating around in the collective consciousness of the modern meta for about a month now, and we're just starting to see it get results.
Probably worth your time to check it out, if you have the cards. I can almost guarantee that any potential list is only about 75% and we should expect a lot more refinement over the coming weeks/months. But as a fun way to build phoenix, I quite like the idea and it seems others do too.