I've been aggro killed by Humans on Turn 3. Thats not Midrange, and no BGx (non-shadow) deck can do that, same as UWR Midrange (Bolts, Counters, Turn the Corner with Resto/Snap Burn) and so on..
Would you care to share that line of play? Assuming you're not dealing most of the damage to yourself (a la Shadow) how on earth did a humans deck kill you on turn 3?
I'm trying to work it out myself but even then its not working out, maybe it was 'essentially dead to board'. :]
Champion Turn 1, Vial and a Champion Turn 2, Noble, Noble, Thalia's on Turn 3.
Gives you a swinging 6/6 and 5/5 Champion, but not lethal, true.
Either way, when we have a category (if using Chapman's groups) for Humans and Spirits. They are disruptive, creature based, aggro. This is 'Fish' based on Merfolk.
I would agree it was BGx...but definitions can change. Much like in real world for instance Gay means Happy sure but that is not the primary meaning of the word anymore is it?
I would say the problem with midrange is I don't think it has a strict definition it simply shifts based on what the aggro and control decks are doing. They are on a line. Aggro is now Faithless Looting cheat my mana cost and crush you as fast as possible while UWx is take it lay by stopping everything my opponent does before grinding them to dust with my Walkers. Midrange is in the middle more interaction then aggro but less then control and will take you out slower then aggro but faster then control with creature based attacks.
Combo off on its own and is basically once I get my combo ready I can go off and 20 to 0 you instantly.
If your only groups are Control, Midrange, Aggro, and Combo, then fine, call them whatever you want.
If I put BGx beside Humans/Merfolk/Spirits and say to you 'are these decks trying to do the same thing', well if you answer yes, then I disagree and we move on with our lives. :]
It being 'dead' is the point of this thread. Bringing back 'midrange' as we intrinsically as Modern players understand it to be, is the point. Calling Humans Midrange, is not it.
I disagree that the lack of something in a format (Midrange) changes the Category of other decks (Aggro/Fish). Its like saying Burn was Control during Eldrazi Winter....
Fair enough seems like then not really a broad solution if you have UWR, GBW, GBR and RBW. Not a one size fits all fix for them so do you have specific fixes or just general like better creatures (with useful abilities) and cheaper removal.
It being 'dead' is the point of this thread. Bringing back 'midrange' as we intrinsically as Modern players understand it to be, is the point. Calling Humans Midrange, is not it.
You're the only person in the thread arguing that midrange specifically means BGx. I don't think many others would agree that the two terms are as equal as you feel. BGx, as its referred to in modern (Jund, Junk, Rock) is certainly midrange, but not at all midrange is going to be BGx.
But debating this seems pointless since you've defined midrange as only lists with spell-based interaction. I personally disagree and don't care to take the discussion further.
It being 'dead' is the point of this thread. Bringing back 'midrange' as we intrinsically as Modern players understand it to be, is the point. Calling Humans Midrange, is not it.
You're the only person in the thread arguing that midrange specifically means BGx. I don't think many others would agree that the two terms are as equal as you feel. BGx, as its referred to in modern (Jund, Junk, Rock) is certainly midrange, but not at all midrange is going to be BGx.
But debating this seems pointless since you've defined midrange as only lists with spell-based interaction. I personally disagree and don't care to take the discussion further.
We can have creature-based midrange. I was specifically referring to BGx spell-based midrange earlier when discussing cantrips, but sure, creature-based midrange is a real thing. Humans just isn't that deck. I define "midrange" more how Jordan Boisvert would refer to "Rock" decks (http://modernnexus.com/pigeonholing-for-profit-modern-era-archetypes/). Specifically, when I refer to midrange, I don't mean ramp or creature-based disruptive strategies. I specifically mean Rock decks that disrupt the hand/board prior to deploying threats. Humans is not midrange/Rock. Humans is a Fish deck, like Merfolk before it, i.e. a type of disruptive tempo deck. As Jordan described them, "Fish decks play a large number of synergistic or disruptive creatures and some light permission."
I've been aggro killed by Humans on Turn 3. Thats not Midrange, and no BGx (non-shadow) deck can do that, same as UWR Midrange (Bolts, Counters, Turn the Corner with Resto/Snap Burn) and so on..
Would you care to share that line of play? Assuming you're not dealing most of the damage to yourself (a la Shadow) how on earth did a humans deck kill you on turn 3?
It's not super common, but it's good to be cognizant that it can happen.
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It being 'dead' is the point of this thread. Bringing back 'midrange' as we intrinsically as Modern players understand it to be, is the point. Calling Humans Midrange, is not it.
You're the only person in the thread arguing that midrange specifically means BGx. I don't think many others would agree that the two terms are as equal as you feel. BGx, as its referred to in modern (Jund, Junk, Rock) is certainly midrange, but not at all midrange is going to be BGx.
But debating this seems pointless since you've defined midrange as only lists with spell-based interaction. I personally disagree and don't care to take the discussion further.
I'm guessing you missed the post where I listed other things that are not BGx? But thank you for telling me what I think, and that you dont care to take it further, it certainly would be pointless to debate if Humans are Midrange.
I read a post on FB by a team member that said that Humans is stifling Midrange. Midrange is just not cutting it when a disruptive Aggro deck can Midrange much better. There was a point to that which I had not thought of myself.
I know I'm going to be discredited, but I feel that a Deathrite Shaman unban would greatly help Midrange. Yes, the card is super good, banned in Legacy, and caused a terrible meta many years ago in Modern, but Modern is the Wild West. Deathrite Shaman would get played a bunch, but I doubt more than 1-2 Deathrite Shaman decks would be Tier 1. Maybe Punishing Fire should be tried first? I don't actually believe that Punishing Fire can help Midrange enough.
Outside of that, what helps Midrange the most is knowledge of your deck and dodging the many, many poor matchups. This is the key in Modern!
I agree with this idea. Magic nowadays has much bigger threats and the games are quite swingy especially when it is based on controlling the battlefield. What midrange needs is a way to stabilize after they gain the advantage. Cards like Punishing Fire and Deathrite have the ability to affect the game throughout the game rather than one time use. Thoughtseize can't control what the opponent top decks, and even with a giant board state, they can always just draw a KCI, Primeval Titan, or another highly impactful Human or Spirit to totally turn the tables.
It being 'dead' is the point of this thread. Bringing back 'midrange' as we intrinsically as Modern players understand it to be, is the point. Calling Humans Midrange, is not it.
You're the only person in the thread arguing that midrange specifically means BGx. I don't think many others would agree that the two terms are as equal as you feel. BGx, as its referred to in modern (Jund, Junk, Rock) is certainly midrange, but not at all midrange is going to be BGx.
But debating this seems pointless since you've defined midrange as only lists with spell-based interaction. I personally disagree and don't care to take the discussion further.
We can have creature-based midrange. I was specifically referring to BGx spell-based midrange earlier when discussing cantrips, but sure, creature-based midrange is a real thing. Humans just isn't that deck. I define "midrange" more how Jordan Boisvert would refer to "Rock" decks (http://modernnexus.com/pigeonholing-for-profit-modern-era-archetypes/). Specifically, when I refer to midrange, I don't mean ramp or creature-based disruptive strategies. I specifically mean Rock decks that disrupt the hand/board prior to deploying threats. Humans is not midrange/Rock. Humans is a Fish deck, like Merfolk before it, i.e. a type of disruptive tempo deck. As Jordan described them, "Fish decks play a large number of synergistic or disruptive creatures and some light permission."
The article lists the problems with midrange as I see them, and the directions the archetype would have to head in to address them. It also proposes a decklist utilizing those principles.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Aggro: little to no disruption.
Hollow One, Dredge, arclight.
tempo:disruption lasts just long enough to win. Splinter Twin, Merfolk, Delver, Death's Shadow
midrange: Disruption and aggressive elements are split, tries to grind opponents out.
BGx, Jeskai Control
Control; Almost all disruption, tries to achieve a locked game position where the opponent can no longer rrasonably achieve victory and then kills opponent.
UW Control, Lantern Control
All of the good tribal decks in modern are tempo decks IMO. They usually win exactly one turn before they would run out of resources and fall apart. Midrange suffers from being one turn too slow for the current meta, either lacking a sufficient disruption to upset the aggro and tempo decks or a threat to race them.
Getting ready to go to work, but midrange at the moment is too focused on the one-for-one removal and disruption that is not favorable against opponents going wide or opponents going big.
Personally I blue midrange decks probably have the best potential for a comeback; blue has access to Snapcaster in the main, enabling a higher threat density without necessarily sacrificing answer density, and Mistcaller in the side, which can slow down certain Aether Vial and Faithless Looting decks for a turn, which may be all the midrange deck needs to stabilize.
I have never been a huge fan of Rock-style decks in MOdern, i think the following decks does count as midrange too:
Bant Knightfall - a creature-based midrange deck with a combo-finisher in Retreat to corallhelm
Bant Eldrazi - a creature based midrange deck with huge threats and a bunch of ramp/dig-spells (Hierarch, Birds, Stirrings)
Kiki Chord - a creature based midrange deck with a combo-finisher in Kiki-Jiki / Resto Angel
WB Eldrazi Processor - a creature-based midrange deck focusing on attacking the graveyard and 2-for-1'ing with cards like Wasteland Strangler, Lingering Souls and Reality Smasher
GR Eldrazi - a creature based Aggro/Midrange deck with a minimum of interaction (Bolt, Dismember, TKS)
Death's Shadow variants - the better rock-style decks (more disruption, a faster clock, hughe threats)
the difference between these and attrition-style decks like Pyromancer, Jund etc. is a very proactive approach that doesn't try to solve all the problems opponents present. I'm a big believer in decks that mix up different approaches to the midrange category - i.e. Midrange-Combo, Aggro-Midrange, Ramp-Midrange.
Relying on removing and answering threats alone will not revisit the midrange archetype. It's either better digging / cantripping, ramping into bigger threats, including an "oops, i win"-button or going over the top.
Since RG Ponza deck is classed as midrange here on mtgsalvation.. my simple definition of midrange is something that does not win right away, but is faster than real control decks like Lantern? For something that my "midrange" deck needs. WoTC please make Pillage modern legal, so our land destruction can also smash ensnaring bridge, robots in scaled affinity, and 4/4 walking mummies - Hollow One. And reprint Terravore too.. as icing on the cake.
While I do indeed think of those as "Midrange" decks, they probably comprise less than 1% of the meta. I would assume that those who love Midrange, while also probably leaning more toward attrition style, also want their deck to be Tier 1. It's not too much to ask for Midrange to be one of the top 10 decks in the format. As it stands now, it's probably all Aggro and Combo, with 1 Control deck in the top 10.
It's no secret that Modern is a format of Aggro and Combo.
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I have never been a huge fan of Rock-style decks in MOdern, i think the following decks does count as midrange too:
Bant Knightfall - a creature-based midrange deck with a combo-finisher in Retreat to corallhelm
Bant Eldrazi - a creature based midrange deck with huge threats and a bunch of ramp/dig-spells (Hierarch, Birds, Stirrings)
Kiki Chord - a creature based midrange deck with a combo-finisher in Kiki-Jiki / Resto Angel
WB Eldrazi Processor - a creature-based midrange deck focusing on attacking the graveyard and 2-for-1'ing with cards like Wasteland Strangler, Lingering Souls and Reality Smasher
GR Eldrazi - a creature based Aggro/Midrange deck with a minimum of interaction (Bolt, Dismember, TKS)
Death's Shadow variants - the better rock-style decks (more disruption, a faster clock, hughe threats)
the difference between these and attrition-style decks like Pyromancer, Jund etc. is a very proactive approach that doesn't try to solve all the problems opponents present. I'm a big believer in decks that mix up different approaches to the midrange category - i.e. Midrange-Combo, Aggro-Midrange, Ramp-Midrange.
Relying on removing and answering threats alone will not revisit the midrange archetype. It's either better digging / cantripping, ramping into bigger threats, including an "oops, i win"-button or going over the top.
Well I don't think ramping into bigger treats or going over the top is a feasible way. You have to be a Control or Ramp deck for that. You can't just put a bunch of Primeval Titan/Grave Titan/Inferno Titan/Sun Titan is your typical Midrange deck hope for it to be good at least in Modern. And even if you would you wouldn't actually solve anything by doing that.
Dedicated Ramp decks do the same thing way better and faster then you could so what would be the point of playing all those smaller creatures to begin with when you could instead get the bigger guys out early? What would you do better than dedicated Ramp decks like Tron or Titanshift?
What midrange needs to thrive: no more Tron and no more dredge
Is Titanshift fine?
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Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
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What midrange needs to thrive: no more Tron and no more dredge
Is Titanshift fine?
Probably not
But that's OK by itself since looking at it from a theoretical standpoint about deck archetypes Midrange losing to Ramp makes absolute sense. Just like Midrange beats Aggro by going bigger Ramp does the same against Midrange. You can see that really good right now in Standard where Golgari Midrange keeps all those Aggro decks at bay. The dorky Aggro creatures can't really attack well into bigger green creatures. Couple that with additional spot removal and you have the game on lock.
So how does it look for Midrange in Modern? Traditional Aggro like Zoo is dead and buried and the Aggro decks that we have now pack a bit more punch than 1 mana 2/3s and 3/3s. So it's an awkward spot to be. Control can beat you up, Ramp can beat you up, Aggro can now beat you up and Combo can beat you up too and the list of Combo decks that do grows if you go down on disruption.
So is there really something that could be changed or is that just how things naturally go? Standard is obviously the most vanilla format where the workings of the different archetypes can best be seen but while Im not really familiar with Legacy to say that right away from what I can see online there aren't many decks that I would label as Midrange. The format seems to be quite polarized in that you are either putting up pressure immediately, you combo somehow or you control/lockdown.
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Modern: UW Control
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I'm trying to work it out myself but even then its not working out, maybe it was 'essentially dead to board'. :]
Champion Turn 1, Vial and a Champion Turn 2, Noble, Noble, Thalia's on Turn 3.
Gives you a swinging 6/6 and 5/5 Champion, but not lethal, true.
Either way, when we have a category (if using Chapman's groups) for Humans and Spirits. They are disruptive, creature based, aggro. This is 'Fish' based on Merfolk.
They are not 'midrange'.
Spirits
I would say the problem with midrange is I don't think it has a strict definition it simply shifts based on what the aggro and control decks are doing. They are on a line. Aggro is now Faithless Looting cheat my mana cost and crush you as fast as possible while UWx is take it lay by stopping everything my opponent does before grinding them to dust with my Walkers. Midrange is in the middle more interaction then aggro but less then control and will take you out slower then aggro but faster then control with creature based attacks.
Combo off on its own and is basically once I get my combo ready I can go off and 20 to 0 you instantly.
If I put BGx beside Humans/Merfolk/Spirits and say to you 'are these decks trying to do the same thing', well if you answer yes, then I disagree and we move on with our lives. :]
Spirits
I am not saying it does the same as Vial Decks.
Spirits
Spirits
Spell Based Disruption
Value/Card Quality vs Quantity
Win through Creatures
UWR Flash (Resto/Snaps/Bolts and Counters as Disruption)
Jund
Junk
Mardu Pyromancer (not Arclight)
Things like that.
Spirits
You're the only person in the thread arguing that midrange specifically means BGx. I don't think many others would agree that the two terms are as equal as you feel. BGx, as its referred to in modern (Jund, Junk, Rock) is certainly midrange, but not at all midrange is going to be BGx.
But debating this seems pointless since you've defined midrange as only lists with spell-based interaction. I personally disagree and don't care to take the discussion further.
Draft My Cube!
We can have creature-based midrange. I was specifically referring to BGx spell-based midrange earlier when discussing cantrips, but sure, creature-based midrange is a real thing. Humans just isn't that deck. I define "midrange" more how Jordan Boisvert would refer to "Rock" decks (http://modernnexus.com/pigeonholing-for-profit-modern-era-archetypes/). Specifically, when I refer to midrange, I don't mean ramp or creature-based disruptive strategies. I specifically mean Rock decks that disrupt the hand/board prior to deploying threats. Humans is not midrange/Rock. Humans is a Fish deck, like Merfolk before it, i.e. a type of disruptive tempo deck. As Jordan described them, "Fish decks play a large number of synergistic or disruptive creatures and some light permission."
Although it can be done several different ways, one of the ways involves multiple Champion of the Parish and multiple Thalia's Lieutenants.
It's not super common, but it's good to be cognizant that it can happen.
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Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I'm guessing you missed the post where I listed other things that are not BGx? But thank you for telling me what I think, and that you dont care to take it further, it certainly would be pointless to debate if Humans are Midrange.
Spirits
I agree with this idea. Magic nowadays has much bigger threats and the games are quite swingy especially when it is based on controlling the battlefield. What midrange needs is a way to stabilize after they gain the advantage. Cards like Punishing Fire and Deathrite have the ability to affect the game throughout the game rather than one time use. Thoughtseize can't control what the opponent top decks, and even with a giant board state, they can always just draw a KCI, Primeval Titan, or another highly impactful Human or Spirit to totally turn the tables.
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
And here's his freshly-published response to DeFish's thorough and insightful post on page 1 of this very thread!
http://modernnexus.com/guild-faith-building-better-midrange/
The article lists the problems with midrange as I see them, and the directions the archetype would have to head in to address them. It also proposes a decklist utilizing those principles.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Aggro: little to no disruption.
Hollow One, Dredge, arclight.
tempo:disruption lasts just long enough to win. Splinter Twin, Merfolk, Delver, Death's Shadow
midrange: Disruption and aggressive elements are split, tries to grind opponents out.
BGx, Jeskai Control
Control; Almost all disruption, tries to achieve a locked game position where the opponent can no longer rrasonably achieve victory and then kills opponent.
UW Control, Lantern Control
All of the good tribal decks in modern are tempo decks IMO. They usually win exactly one turn before they would run out of resources and fall apart. Midrange suffers from being one turn too slow for the current meta, either lacking a sufficient disruption to upset the aggro and tempo decks or a threat to race them.
Personally I blue midrange decks probably have the best potential for a comeback; blue has access to Snapcaster in the main, enabling a higher threat density without necessarily sacrificing answer density, and Mistcaller in the side, which can slow down certain Aether Vial and Faithless Looting decks for a turn, which may be all the midrange deck needs to stabilize.
Avatar and Signature by XenoNinja via Heroes of the Plane Studios
the difference between these and attrition-style decks like Pyromancer, Jund etc. is a very proactive approach that doesn't try to solve all the problems opponents present. I'm a big believer in decks that mix up different approaches to the midrange category - i.e. Midrange-Combo, Aggro-Midrange, Ramp-Midrange.
Relying on removing and answering threats alone will not revisit the midrange archetype. It's either better digging / cantripping, ramping into bigger threats, including an "oops, i win"-button or going over the top.
Green @ it's best
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
It's no secret that Modern is a format of Aggro and Combo.
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Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Well I don't think ramping into bigger treats or going over the top is a feasible way. You have to be a Control or Ramp deck for that. You can't just put a bunch of Primeval Titan/Grave Titan/Inferno Titan/Sun Titan is your typical Midrange deck hope for it to be good at least in Modern. And even if you would you wouldn't actually solve anything by doing that.
Dedicated Ramp decks do the same thing way better and faster then you could so what would be the point of playing all those smaller creatures to begin with when you could instead get the bigger guys out early? What would you do better than dedicated Ramp decks like Tron or Titanshift?
Is Titanshift fine?
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Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Probably not
But that's OK by itself since looking at it from a theoretical standpoint about deck archetypes Midrange losing to Ramp makes absolute sense. Just like Midrange beats Aggro by going bigger Ramp does the same against Midrange. You can see that really good right now in Standard where Golgari Midrange keeps all those Aggro decks at bay. The dorky Aggro creatures can't really attack well into bigger green creatures. Couple that with additional spot removal and you have the game on lock.
So how does it look for Midrange in Modern? Traditional Aggro like Zoo is dead and buried and the Aggro decks that we have now pack a bit more punch than 1 mana 2/3s and 3/3s. So it's an awkward spot to be. Control can beat you up, Ramp can beat you up, Aggro can now beat you up and Combo can beat you up too and the list of Combo decks that do grows if you go down on disruption.
So is there really something that could be changed or is that just how things naturally go? Standard is obviously the most vanilla format where the workings of the different archetypes can best be seen but while Im not really familiar with Legacy to say that right away from what I can see online there aren't many decks that I would label as Midrange. The format seems to be quite polarized in that you are either putting up pressure immediately, you combo somehow or you control/lockdown.