I don't know all version of UR Storm, but the ones we have here in our meta are turn 3 decks if you let them goldfish.
However, the combo is easy enough to disrupt.. so it's not really that big of an issue.
Oh my, didn't know that manamorphose is a 20 dollar card now. That's insane for a common. Sold my playset for 35 dollars just about 3 months ago. Bought them for 25 cents each at SCG years ago, if I knew they would 20 dollars today, I could have bought hundreds of copies and made a living selling manamorphoses today.
All versions of storm currently being played are Turn 3 kills if you let them. You are absolutely right.
If I didn't need my morphoses so much I'd be selling them. I'm confident they will be reprinted in a non-standard set soon.
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Modern: UR Gifts Storm URB Grixis Death's Shadow R12 Bolt
Pauper: UR Puzzle Pieces
EDH: UB Phenax, God of Deception UR The Locust God UR Saheeli the Gifted WBG Anafenza, the Foremost
These last 2-3 pages on Preordain have been pretty revealing on what people think/believe about the format.
It also shows that the community can often be fundamentally wrong and arrogant sometimes. Let me get this out of the way, I would LOVE to have Preordain. The main reason is that it is just SO much more powerful than Serum Visions. Like, they are not even close. I shouldn't have to explain this, but apparently people think it's not that big of a deal.
The reason Preordain is compared to Ancient Stirrings is, obviously, its card selection power. You LOOK and then you pick a card. You don't pick a random card and then hope to be alive to draw the next one. Preordain is also no-restrictions card selection whereas Stirrings does have a ton of restrictions AND you have to reveal the card to your opponent.
It is clear that Wizards doesn't like unconditional card selection. Whether that is good or bad is a different story, but this is where they are going at. Card selection for 1 mana is a no-go nowadays. And that is a big part of the reason of why Stirrings is on the watchlist, because it approaches being an unconditional card selection.
So for those who are still saying, why not get Preordain, please realize, that if Stirrings is on the watchlist, there is no way that Preordain, no tot say Ponder, will ever come off. The reason is NOT because it slots into currently powerful decks. The reason is that R&D doesn't want that effect to exist.
Comparing Ponder to Looting is off base because again, they are not doing the same thing, whether people like it or not.
The fact that the community was validated with the KCI ban (something quite obvious), doesn't mean that it will always be right. Just because people said KCI should be banned, doesn't mean that saying that Preordain needs to be unbanned is the right choice.
And again, I would love Preordain. But it's just not happening. Does that make you depressed? Well, ok, but there is not much that can be done. Preordain and Ponder are never coming off. We should be discussing more realistic options. It's not a matter of power. It is a matter of effect.
I am glad with how Modern is shaping after the release of Ravnica Allegiance, I hope this keeps up with next sets, it's great to have new cards enter the pool in a meaningful way like the Spectacle cards. In that sense, I wish Wizards would be more open to unbanning cards in the list starting with the most innocuous ones IMO:
Stoneforge Mystic and Punishing Fire
That's just false. Preordain is more powerful than Serum Visions, but it's MUCH closer to SV in power than it is to Ponder or Brainstorm. Those two are the truly broken cantrips. If you honestly think that unbanning Preordain would do anything in Modern, you're way overvaluing what a minor difference like upgrading SV to Preordain can do for a deck. In fact, Grishoalbrand gets to play a 2 mana Preordain that's even better than Preordain for them, since they want things in their graveyard, and it's... just fine. Like, it's good in the deck, but it didn't break Grishoalbrand. And Grishoalbrand was upgrading to that from stuff like Tormenting Voice, which is way worse than SV. Decks that would upgrade from SV to Preordain would have an imperceptible bump in power, probably not even a full 1% in overall MWP. Decks that want more cantrips that are upgrading something like Sleight of Hand to Preordain would have a larger bump, but it's still not game-breaking for them.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
That's just false. Preordain is more powerful than Serum Visions, but it's MUCH closer to SV in power than it is to Ponder or Brainstorm. Those two are the truly broken cantrips. If you honestly think that unbanning Preordain would do anything in Modern, you're way overvaluing what a minor difference like upgrading SV to Preordain can do for a deck. In fact, Grishoalbrand gets to play a 2 mana Preordain that's even better than Preordain for them, since they want things in their graveyard, and it's... just fine. Like, it's good in the deck, but it didn't break Grishoalbrand. And Grishoalbrand was upgrading to that from stuff like Tormenting Voice, which is way worse than SV. Decks that would upgrade from SV to Preordain would have an imperceptible bump in power, probably not even a full 1% in overall MWP. Decks that want more cantrips that are upgrading something like Sleight of Hand to Preordain would have a larger bump, but it's still not game-breaking for them.
But this is EXACTLY what I am trying to explain. That it is NOT about power. It is about the effect!
Wizards doesn't want 1 mana unconditional card selection. It doesn't matter whether I believe is strong or you believe it is not. It is not the type of effect they want in the format and so much became clear in this announcement.
I don't think there's too much disagreement with either of those statements, and I don't think anyone ever realistically thought it would ever be free, given their salt-the-earth policy on blue card draw.
As much as I love Preordain I agree that it should remain banned as it's risky and there is not much to be gained by unbanning it. Also, Phoenix is seeing huge amounts of play with very good and consistent results. Adding Preordain would consolidate it as the most popular deck, at the same time UW control, GDS and Storm would pick it so in the end Preordain would have a large enough metagame share to become problematic.
I would actually say that Dig Through Time has more chances to be unbanned than Preordain (and I believe Dig is not getting unbanned anytime soon) becase it's not a card you can use to goldfish, it gives consistency but has a real cost to it so not all blue decks would jam it in.
I think there is a real danger in following the slope of legacy that blue decks get to run 20 lands and everybody else has to run 24 (unless they're some kinda bizarre lands deck that can swap stirrings and chromatic star/sphere for blue cantrips), because hey consistency is fine.
I like that there's a real cost to trying to turbo xerox in modern because the cantrip quality is pretty poor. Similarly there are major deckbuilding constraints to playing turbo xerox with lands/artifacts.
At the very minimum I would like to see Green Sun's Zenith unbanned long before preordain even gets a sniff, so that there's more than one angle to approach midrange with consistency.
In Legacy we can see that the xerox strategy is quite a bit more powerful than GSZ based decks, but that's with ponder and brainstorm (though most of them play some number of preordains now). Main advantage being the generic cantrips just let you play the best cards.
I realise that for four or five of you guys (including a moderator), this thread has gradually developed into a venting space to air your emotional grievances about modern, but, like, can you not?
With the greatest of respect, "the state of modern" doesn't mesh with "my emotive personal laundry list of reasons X card should be unbanned this instant otherwise modern is garbage"
For example; preordain. The entire above conversation ^^^ is unnecessary. It was banned and at the time the reasoning was sound. No, we haven't got it back yet, yes modern has changed. Chill out and wait. It's not some huge insult to get worked up about. Unbans are a gradual tool WotC can use to get people excited, so respect that process and enjoy the format until your pet card sees the light of day again. Don't poison the ongoing discussion of the format with whining about how you're impatient for a specific toy to be given to you. Enjoy the toys you have.
Constructive discussion is what we need. What's the meta like? How are sideboards changing? What's on the rise or beginning to wane? What's your regional scene like? You know, ACTUAL STATE OF THE FORMAT Conversation.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
given their salt-the-earth policy on blue card draw.
Wizards: Let's print Opt to throw blue players a bone so they can run a suite of 8 decent cantrips
Players: Wizards hates blue
Wizards: Let's print this cool Phoenix thing that synergizes with cantrips, and multiple iterations of strong fliers that synergize with cantrips
Players: Wizards keeps crapping on blue by not unbanning preordain
Wizards: OK, that didn't work, let's print a new pushed delver-esque creature that synergizes with cantrips
Players: SALTED EARTH SALTED EARTH
-------------------------------------------------
I didn't even get into spell queller or teferi or any of the other cool things wizards has been doing for blue (printing new cards to synergize with the cantrips you have, especially).
If what you mean is Wizards has a cautious take toward 1 mana blue draw spells justifiably since Serum Visions (which is unplayable in legacy) is the second most played card in Modern with Opt at #6, then yes, they do.
Preordain is a significant upgrade over opt. It's not about whether it compares to serum visions, since people would run both.
TL;DR The blue persecution complex seriously has got to end After jace, with Serum visions and Snapcaster in the top 1 and 2 spots in their categories, it's time to just let it go.
But this is EXACTLY what I am trying to explain. That it is NOT about power. It is about the effect!
Wizards doesn't want 1 mana unconditional card selection. It doesn't matter whether I believe is strong or you believe it is not. It is not the type of effect they want in the format and so much became clear in this announcement.
I think this is about all that needs to be said on the matter. There are limits to how strong they want card selection, AND how much of it is possible in a deck.
If Phoenix continues to succeed, I bet it draws their eye. Meanwhile other cards are fine, because they are a 4 of, and not 20 of, in a deck.
It's interesting to see the back and forth debate on the Preordain. Sort of neutral on that matter, if it stays banned or unbanned is fine for me. Could an unban make blue the dominant color in modern? It would probably make the UR phoenix decks a little bit stronger, easier to find that Thing in the Ice.
It's interesting to see the back and forth debate on the Preordain. Sort of neutral on that matter, if it stays banned or unbanned is fine for me. Could an unban make blue the dominant color in modern? It would probably make the UR phoenix decks a little bit stronger, easier to find that Thing in the Ice.
I am not sure what you mean by "make blue the dominant color in modern." Blue already is the dominant color in modern, maybe red could challenge
Izzet Phoenix (blue)
Grixis Shadow (black/blue, but technically a black deck)
Burn (red)
Humans (5c, white)
Dredge (4c, red)
Mono green tron (G, brown)
Spirits (Blue, sub green)
Storm (Blue)
UW control (blue)
Scales affinity (G, brown)
Hollow one (red)
It's arguable for sure, but blue core is definitely the highest representation of top decks (storm, uw, phoenix, spirits*). The only close competition for color dominance is red (burn, dredge, hollow one).
It's nuts honestly how much the format has transformed. I never thought I'd see the day when Cantrips eclipsed Discard as a core of modern. But here it is.
(NOTE: You could make the argument that Bant Spirits is a white or green deck depending, but the percentage of mana and cards leans blue - manabase says it's green, card pool says it's blue or white).
Steering this off course a bit, but has anyone had any exposure to the Spikes Academy stuff by PVDDR and Reid Duke? Or know anyone who's tried it? The price point has turned me off of it (for now, may request it as a bday gift from my SO) but I'm honestly very intrigued. I listen to podcasts, watch the occasional stream, read as much magic content as humanly possible (modern-related anyways)but I honestly feel like I'm just a subpar player that doesn't seem to get better at all. I'm more interested in Duke's modern course, but I'm also tempted to try the main course to help improve some of magic theory/tenets that I'm lacking.
I have a lot of personal growth that's needed as well, such as not tilting when I lose and keeping my cool. I've gotten better but still find myself being results-focused when I start out FNM 2-0 to only end 2-2 or going 0-2 drop when I know I should play out the last two games for practice.
Anyways, this kinda sorta relates to modern so I hoped this would be fine to ask here. If not, feel free to smack me and I'll edit/delete it.
I think one thing that isn't talked about with Preordain is in alot of cases, this card isn't going to replace Serum Visions, but be used along side Serum Visions.
One issue is if you refer back to the days of Treasure Cruise/ Dig Through Time decks in Legacy/ Modern, the decks literally were 12+ Cantrips with Serum Visions, Probe, Thought Scour, Remand Etc and 4 Cruises. The other big offender was the Omni- Show deck where the entire deck was cantrips + Dig through time.
Vintage has alot of these blue cantrips restricted mostly to promote card diversity. I personally think having too many playable cantrips in a format is not a good thing.
.
Preordain is not.that.strong. It simply isn't and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.
Primarily, I agree with two of your notions. Firstly that Stoneforge Mystic is completely acceptable to be in the current Modern format. Even though play patterns could become obnoxious in specific matchups. I refuse to believe 30Bolt.dec should be a reasonable Modern deck.
The second notion is that this community understands Modern more than Wizards. I also agree. I also highly question the current situation with Tom Ross not being in R&D anymore. This pattern happens far too often with too many professional players where they join R&D, then a difference of opinion happens, and all of a sudden pro leaves company. After a while you would begin to think that something internal is very wrong in R&D. Hopefully Jadine joining the team gives some insight into the grinder circuit and how ridiculous some of the unfair decks can be in comparison.
The notion quoted above, is where I will definitely argue with you. I understand your logic of Serum Visions and it's interesting applications with other Modern cantrips. Yet I feel (actually I just KNOW) Preordain is leagues ahead in power level. Although, I believe Preordain is where blue Modern Cantrips should reside.
I recently placed 9th on MTGO RPTQ playing UR Phoenix (LINK HERE). My list is very different from most conventional lists, I get that, but look as to how I chose my cantrip selection. Sleight of Hand is leagues above Serum Visions even in a decklist such as this. I understand the Faithless Looting logic, but did you consider the logic of "I'm desperate for this removal or countermagic" or even perhaps "I need this land drop" or even "If I can keep chaining spells, my TiTI will flip!"
It's not just the synergies listed that we may not ever fully discover the potential behind, it's the fact that if you were only restricted to 4 Cantrips, Preordain would lead the pack undoubtedly.
All being said. I'm fine for it's unbanning, and in favour of it. It would bring the fair decks more forward than the skeptical fears of the increased power level to linear decks. Your prime example is Legacy. Fair decks use cantrips to more success than the unfair ones.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
I'm pretty sure you have wrecked me online before Shmanka, and I dont disagree with your logic. Preordain would be strong in Phoenix, but I dont know that there is a right/correct way to build out those cantrip's other than to include a very high number of them.
I just feel that the difference is as huge as people make it to be.
PS: Please stay on Phoenix, I think you where on Jund DS before and it was a very humbling experience for me.
You make a lot of claims that would be easier to support with data / sources.
this community understands Modern more than Wizards
What do these words mean ? People who post here and play Modern have different skill levels, experience, and the ones who write the most have the most influence on the readers, especially if they write well and convincingly. This topic is the best example of a box of opinions mixed with a dose of data manipulation. There's no consensus that is driven by facts only, MTG Salvation is a hot mess of opinions influencing one another. If you make a poll, sometimes it leads to the truth, sometimes it doesn't.
About Wizards, I have no idea who you're talking about, but many employees haven't even met eachother after years working in the same company. Just a few of them are specifically involved in the Modern format, so it seems like an unfair claim against Wizards. Amongst those people, who do you target as the ones who are assumingly worse at judging it ? Is Ian Duke really worse at judging what card to unban than you are ?
You can quote something a Wizards's employee said that ends up being plain wrong about Modern, but you can do the same with probably each member of this community.
the current situation with Tom Ross not being in R&D anymore. This pattern happens far too often with too many professional players where they join R&D, then a difference of opinion happens, and all of a sudden pro leaves company. After a while you would begin to think that something internal is very wrong in R&D
Tom Ross worked in the Play Design Team, right ? I'm unsure what it has to do with Modern.
About leaving the company, is it a conspiracy theory of yours, or do you have quotes from those unnamed employees, who apparently left because of internal policy / conflict ? I'm just ignorant of those stories, maybe it would enlighten readers to have sources.
Yet I feel (actually I just KNOW) Preordain is leagues ahead in power level
It becomes hard to give you credit. You can top 8 and even win a large tournament with a suboptimal list. Data and personal experience with UR Thing shows me Sleight is worse than Serum V in this deck. Most players concur until proven otherwise : some people don't even play Sleight while Serum V is always a 4-of. Maybe with a more optimal list, you would've performed better at that tournament, who knows.
It would bring the fair decks more forward than the skeptical fears of the increased power level to linear decks
You have no proof of that. It's as speculative as evaluating new cards.
Your prime example is Legacy. Fair decks use cantrips to more success than the unfair ones.
If you start to compare formats, you have to do it thoroughly, otherwise scratching the surface won't lead you to solid conclusions. Preordain is better used in combo decks in Legacy to begin with...
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Not really constructive, but as of right now, I would rather play any other format over modern. A games outcome is almost always decided on turn 2, i'm pretty sure with some analysis it would be possible to predict the outcome of a game of modern with a 90% accuracy on t2. To me that cant be a sign of a good format. Warning issued for format bashing. Remember, it's okay to critique the format, but let's try not to put the format down. --CavalryWolfPack
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All being said. I'm fine for it's unbanning, and in favour of it. It would bring the fair decks more forward than the skeptical fears of the increased power level to linear decks. Your prime example is Legacy. Fair decks use cantrips to more success than the unfair ones.
Not to cherry pick but I think you're incorrect on this front. The two best unfair decks in legacy are Show&Tell and Storm, historically, and both of those decks are hugely dependent on cantrips - resolving ponder in storm is far more likely to produce a win than in miracles.
While the fair decks do play cantrips saying that they do so to more success than unfair decks probably sits somewhere in between "somewhat wrong" and "very wrong" in my opinion.
Similarly in modern, Storm and Phoenix both receive a meaningful upgrade with Preordain and I think that's something to be concerned with. The more I think on it I think it's actually more likely for card selection to break a combo deck than a midrange/control deck.
I think the stance many people have about Preordain is heavily influenced by the ridiculousness of how powerful Ancient Stirrings and Faithless Looting are in the respective decks that play them. And that those cards in those decks are considerably more powerful in those decks than Preordain would be in any deck.
[
All being said. I'm fine for it's unbanning, and in favour of it. It would bring the fair decks more forward than the skeptical fears of the increased power level to linear decks. Your prime example is Legacy. Fair decks use cantrips to more success than the unfair ones.
Not to cherry pick but I think you're incorrect on this front. The two best unfair decks in legacy are Show&Tell and Storm, historically, and both of those decks are hugely dependent on cantrips - resolving ponder in storm is far more likely to produce a win than in miracles.
While the fair decks do play cantrips saying that they do so to more success than unfair decks probably sits somewhere in between "somewhat wrong" and "very wrong" in my opinion.
Similarly in modern, Storm and Phoenix both receive a meaningful upgrade with Preordain and I think that's something to be concerned with. The more I think on it I think it's actually more likely for card selection to break a combo deck than a midrange/control deck.
I think the stance many people have about Preordain is heavily influenced by the ridiculousness of how powerful Ancient Stirrings and Faithless Looting are in the respective decks that play them. And that those cards in those decks are considerably more powerful in those decks than Preordain would be in any deck.
I mean this is just the same circle but those decks have real deckbuilding consequences. Looting decks in particular are generally combo or pseudo-combo (Hollow One).
Stirrings is the one I'm more on the fence about because there're so many ways to build those decks. My thinking is that enough of those decks are perfectly reasonable/fun (Bant Eldrazi, scales Affinity and Amulet Titan for example) that it's worth toughing it out and banning their engines when/if they become problems.
It's not like we ever had to deal with a 20% KCI metagame, so what's there to get all excited about? What other Stirrings deck is running rampant?
The point is you cannot just play all good cards like Legacy UW Stoneblade with Ancient Stirrings. The Looting deck that tried that is well and truly dead (Mardu Pyromancer) because it's garbage.
All versions of storm currently being played are Turn 3 kills if you let them. You are absolutely right.
If I didn't need my morphoses so much I'd be selling them. I'm confident they will be reprinted in a non-standard set soon.
Pauper: UR Puzzle Pieces
EDH: UB Phenax, God of Deception UR The Locust God UR Saheeli the Gifted WBG Anafenza, the Foremost
It also shows that the community can often be fundamentally wrong and arrogant sometimes. Let me get this out of the way, I would LOVE to have Preordain. The main reason is that it is just SO much more powerful than Serum Visions. Like, they are not even close. I shouldn't have to explain this, but apparently people think it's not that big of a deal.
The reason Preordain is compared to Ancient Stirrings is, obviously, its card selection power. You LOOK and then you pick a card. You don't pick a random card and then hope to be alive to draw the next one. Preordain is also no-restrictions card selection whereas Stirrings does have a ton of restrictions AND you have to reveal the card to your opponent.
It is clear that Wizards doesn't like unconditional card selection. Whether that is good or bad is a different story, but this is where they are going at. Card selection for 1 mana is a no-go nowadays. And that is a big part of the reason of why Stirrings is on the watchlist, because it approaches being an unconditional card selection.
So for those who are still saying, why not get Preordain, please realize, that if Stirrings is on the watchlist, there is no way that Preordain, no tot say Ponder, will ever come off. The reason is NOT because it slots into currently powerful decks. The reason is that R&D doesn't want that effect to exist.
Comparing Ponder to Looting is off base because again, they are not doing the same thing, whether people like it or not.
The fact that the community was validated with the KCI ban (something quite obvious), doesn't mean that it will always be right. Just because people said KCI should be banned, doesn't mean that saying that Preordain needs to be unbanned is the right choice.
And again, I would love Preordain. But it's just not happening. Does that make you depressed? Well, ok, but there is not much that can be done. Preordain and Ponder are never coming off. We should be discussing more realistic options. It's not a matter of power. It is a matter of effect.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Stoneforge Mystic and Punishing Fire
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Wizards doesn't want 1 mana unconditional card selection. It doesn't matter whether I believe is strong or you believe it is not. It is not the type of effect they want in the format and so much became clear in this announcement.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Wizards believes Preordain is not.
I don't think there's too much disagreement with either of those statements, and I don't think anyone ever realistically thought it would ever be free, given their salt-the-earth policy on blue card draw.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I would actually say that Dig Through Time has more chances to be unbanned than Preordain (and I believe Dig is not getting unbanned anytime soon) becase it's not a card you can use to goldfish, it gives consistency but has a real cost to it so not all blue decks would jam it in.
Let's not even talk about Ponder
I like that there's a real cost to trying to turbo xerox in modern because the cantrip quality is pretty poor. Similarly there are major deckbuilding constraints to playing turbo xerox with lands/artifacts.
At the very minimum I would like to see Green Sun's Zenith unbanned long before preordain even gets a sniff, so that there's more than one angle to approach midrange with consistency.
In Legacy we can see that the xerox strategy is quite a bit more powerful than GSZ based decks, but that's with ponder and brainstorm (though most of them play some number of preordains now). Main advantage being the generic cantrips just let you play the best cards.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
With the greatest of respect, "the state of modern" doesn't mesh with "my emotive personal laundry list of reasons X card should be unbanned this instant otherwise modern is garbage"
For example; preordain. The entire above conversation ^^^ is unnecessary. It was banned and at the time the reasoning was sound. No, we haven't got it back yet, yes modern has changed. Chill out and wait. It's not some huge insult to get worked up about. Unbans are a gradual tool WotC can use to get people excited, so respect that process and enjoy the format until your pet card sees the light of day again. Don't poison the ongoing discussion of the format with whining about how you're impatient for a specific toy to be given to you. Enjoy the toys you have.
Constructive discussion is what we need. What's the meta like? How are sideboards changing? What's on the rise or beginning to wane? What's your regional scene like? You know, ACTUAL STATE OF THE FORMAT Conversation.
Wizards: Let's print Opt to throw blue players a bone so they can run a suite of 8 decent cantrips
Players: Wizards hates blue
Wizards: Let's print this cool Phoenix thing that synergizes with cantrips, and multiple iterations of strong fliers that synergize with cantrips
Players: Wizards keeps crapping on blue by not unbanning preordain
Wizards: OK, that didn't work, let's print a new pushed delver-esque creature that synergizes with cantrips
Players: SALTED EARTH SALTED EARTH
-------------------------------------------------
I didn't even get into spell queller or teferi or any of the other cool things wizards has been doing for blue (printing new cards to synergize with the cantrips you have, especially).
If what you mean is Wizards has a cautious take toward 1 mana blue draw spells justifiably since Serum Visions (which is unplayable in legacy) is the second most played card in Modern with Opt at #6, then yes, they do.
Preordain is a significant upgrade over opt. It's not about whether it compares to serum visions, since people would run both.
TL;DR The blue persecution complex seriously has got to end After jace, with Serum visions and Snapcaster in the top 1 and 2 spots in their categories, it's time to just let it go.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I think this is about all that needs to be said on the matter. There are limits to how strong they want card selection, AND how much of it is possible in a deck.
If Phoenix continues to succeed, I bet it draws their eye. Meanwhile other cards are fine, because they are a 4 of, and not 20 of, in a deck.
Spirits
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
I am not sure what you mean by "make blue the dominant color in modern." Blue already is the dominant color in modern, maybe red could challenge
Izzet Phoenix (blue)
Grixis Shadow (black/blue, but technically a black deck)
Burn (red)
Humans (5c, white)
Dredge (4c, red)
Mono green tron (G, brown)
Spirits (Blue, sub green)
Storm (Blue)
UW control (blue)
Scales affinity (G, brown)
Hollow one (red)
It's arguable for sure, but blue core is definitely the highest representation of top decks (storm, uw, phoenix, spirits*). The only close competition for color dominance is red (burn, dredge, hollow one).
It's nuts honestly how much the format has transformed. I never thought I'd see the day when Cantrips eclipsed Discard as a core of modern. But here it is.
(NOTE: You could make the argument that Bant Spirits is a white or green deck depending, but the percentage of mana and cards leans blue - manabase says it's green, card pool says it's blue or white).
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I have a lot of personal growth that's needed as well, such as not tilting when I lose and keeping my cool. I've gotten better but still find myself being results-focused when I start out FNM 2-0 to only end 2-2 or going 0-2 drop when I know I should play out the last two games for practice.
Anyways, this kinda sorta relates to modern so I hoped this would be fine to ask here. If not, feel free to smack me and I'll edit/delete it.
TiA
One issue is if you refer back to the days of Treasure Cruise/ Dig Through Time decks in Legacy/ Modern, the decks literally were 12+ Cantrips with Serum Visions, Probe, Thought Scour, Remand Etc and 4 Cruises. The other big offender was the Omni- Show deck where the entire deck was cantrips + Dig through time.
Vintage has alot of these blue cantrips restricted mostly to promote card diversity. I personally think having too many playable cantrips in a format is not a good thing.
Primarily, I agree with two of your notions. Firstly that Stoneforge Mystic is completely acceptable to be in the current Modern format. Even though play patterns could become obnoxious in specific matchups. I refuse to believe 30Bolt.dec should be a reasonable Modern deck.
The second notion is that this community understands Modern more than Wizards. I also agree. I also highly question the current situation with Tom Ross not being in R&D anymore. This pattern happens far too often with too many professional players where they join R&D, then a difference of opinion happens, and all of a sudden pro leaves company. After a while you would begin to think that something internal is very wrong in R&D. Hopefully Jadine joining the team gives some insight into the grinder circuit and how ridiculous some of the unfair decks can be in comparison.
The notion quoted above, is where I will definitely argue with you. I understand your logic of Serum Visions and it's interesting applications with other Modern cantrips. Yet I feel (actually I just KNOW) Preordain is leagues ahead in power level. Although, I believe Preordain is where blue Modern Cantrips should reside.
I recently placed 9th on MTGO RPTQ playing UR Phoenix (LINK HERE). My list is very different from most conventional lists, I get that, but look as to how I chose my cantrip selection. Sleight of Hand is leagues above Serum Visions even in a decklist such as this. I understand the Faithless Looting logic, but did you consider the logic of "I'm desperate for this removal or countermagic" or even perhaps "I need this land drop" or even "If I can keep chaining spells, my TiTI will flip!"
It's not just the synergies listed that we may not ever fully discover the potential behind, it's the fact that if you were only restricted to 4 Cantrips, Preordain would lead the pack undoubtedly.
All being said. I'm fine for it's unbanning, and in favour of it. It would bring the fair decks more forward than the skeptical fears of the increased power level to linear decks. Your prime example is Legacy. Fair decks use cantrips to more success than the unfair ones.
I just feel that the difference is as huge as people make it to be.
PS: Please stay on Phoenix, I think you where on Jund DS before and it was a very humbling experience for me.
Spirits
What do these words mean ? People who post here and play Modern have different skill levels, experience, and the ones who write the most have the most influence on the readers, especially if they write well and convincingly. This topic is the best example of a box of opinions mixed with a dose of data manipulation. There's no consensus that is driven by facts only, MTG Salvation is a hot mess of opinions influencing one another. If you make a poll, sometimes it leads to the truth, sometimes it doesn't.
About Wizards, I have no idea who you're talking about, but many employees haven't even met eachother after years working in the same company. Just a few of them are specifically involved in the Modern format, so it seems like an unfair claim against Wizards. Amongst those people, who do you target as the ones who are assumingly worse at judging it ? Is Ian Duke really worse at judging what card to unban than you are ?
You can quote something a Wizards's employee said that ends up being plain wrong about Modern, but you can do the same with probably each member of this community.
Tom Ross worked in the Play Design Team, right ? I'm unsure what it has to do with Modern.
About leaving the company, is it a conspiracy theory of yours, or do you have quotes from those unnamed employees, who apparently left because of internal policy / conflict ? I'm just ignorant of those stories, maybe it would enlighten readers to have sources.
Maybe you're right, but followed by this :
It becomes hard to give you credit. You can top 8 and even win a large tournament with a suboptimal list. Data and personal experience with UR Thing shows me Sleight is worse than Serum V in this deck. Most players concur until proven otherwise : some people don't even play Sleight while Serum V is always a 4-of. Maybe with a more optimal list, you would've performed better at that tournament, who knows.
You have no proof of that. It's as speculative as evaluating new cards.
If you start to compare formats, you have to do it thoroughly, otherwise scratching the surface won't lead you to solid conclusions. Preordain is better used in combo decks in Legacy to begin with...
Warning issued for format bashing. Remember, it's okay to critique the format, but let's try not to put the format down. --CavalryWolfPack
Not to cherry pick but I think you're incorrect on this front. The two best unfair decks in legacy are Show&Tell and Storm, historically, and both of those decks are hugely dependent on cantrips - resolving ponder in storm is far more likely to produce a win than in miracles.
While the fair decks do play cantrips saying that they do so to more success than unfair decks probably sits somewhere in between "somewhat wrong" and "very wrong" in my opinion.
Similarly in modern, Storm and Phoenix both receive a meaningful upgrade with Preordain and I think that's something to be concerned with. The more I think on it I think it's actually more likely for card selection to break a combo deck than a midrange/control deck.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#paper
Fair decks using Blue Cantrips in Legacy
6.19% Grixis Control
5.84% Grixis Delver
4.81% UW Stoneblade
4.81% Jeskai Miracles
3.09% Death's Shadow
2.41% UR Wizards
Unfair decks using cantrips
3.78% Ad Naus
3.44% Sneak and Show
2.75% Reanimator
This shouldn't even be contested. Fair decks have always had more efficiency in Legacy with cantrips compared to combo and linear decks.
I mean this is just the same circle but those decks have real deckbuilding consequences. Looting decks in particular are generally combo or pseudo-combo (Hollow One).
Stirrings is the one I'm more on the fence about because there're so many ways to build those decks. My thinking is that enough of those decks are perfectly reasonable/fun (Bant Eldrazi, scales Affinity and Amulet Titan for example) that it's worth toughing it out and banning their engines when/if they become problems.
The thing here is that stirrings decks are not able to just play every generically powerful thing; they can't search for rest in peace but are stuck with Relic of Progenitus. They can't jam Assassin's Trophy and find that when they need it, or Cryptic Command or Supreme Verdict.
It's not like we ever had to deal with a 20% KCI metagame, so what's there to get all excited about? What other Stirrings deck is running rampant?
The point is you cannot just play all good cards like Legacy UW Stoneblade with Ancient Stirrings. The Looting deck that tried that is well and truly dead (Mardu Pyromancer) because it's garbage.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate