What you're saying is just a factually incorrect statement an here's why:
Which card is better in modern?
A) U, look at the top 5 and choose one card
B) G, look at the top 5 and choose a colorless card
When you answer A, it should hopefully explain that Ancient Stirrings comes with some meaningful deckbuilding consequences.
And it's not even a little bit better. Card A is *so much better* as to be laughable. No one would ever play ancient stirrings again in anything if card A was legal. Except maybe as a second, worse Card A in UG Tron.
---------------------------------------
Another way to look at this is by comparing cards you can find that serve a function: Supreme Verdict is significantly stronger than Oblivion Stone *even in the context of Tron*. If Tron could play 4 for Supreme Verdict and find it with Stirrings, you would never see another ostone played.
While Stirrings decks do everything they can to minimize the deckbuilding consequences (playing Engineered Explosives or OStone instead of Verdict, for example) they do not completely obviate the consequences. The cards you can find are worse. And that is meaningful.
We would be having an entirely different discussion if Stirrings only looked at 2-3 cards like every blue cantrip ever printed. Your hypothetical example has never, and will never, be printed.
It's inability to find specifically Rest in Peace is irrelevant when it can find any number of other colorless graveyard hate cards.
Is there something better than peer through depths? I mean yeah its 1U and not U, and yeah is Instant/Sorc, instead of 'Blue Card' or something, but I'm curious. Since Peer see's no play that I'm aware of.
EDIT: Actually, I'm not sure I am curious. I'm pretty sure I know the answer and we all know how this goes.
Anyone seen any fun brews or updates to decks lately? I read the new Burn is pretty good.
It's interesting to see the back and forth debate on the Preordain. Sort of neutral on that matter, if it stays banned or unbanned is fine for me. Could an unban make blue the dominant color in modern? It would probably make the UR phoenix decks a little bit stronger, easier to find that Thing in the Ice.
I am not sure what you mean by "make blue the dominant color in modern." Blue already is the dominant color in modern, maybe red could challenge
Izzet Phoenix (blue)
Grixis Shadow (black/blue, but technically a black deck)
Burn (red)
Humans (5c, white)
Dredge (4c, red)
Mono green tron (G, brown)
Spirits (Blue, sub green)
Storm (Blue)
UW control (blue)
Scales affinity (G, brown)
Hollow one (red)
It's arguable for sure, but blue core is definitely the highest representation of top decks (storm, uw, phoenix, spirits*). The only close competition for color dominance is red (burn, dredge, hollow one).
It's nuts honestly how much the format has transformed. I never thought I'd see the day when Cantrips eclipsed Discard as a core of modern. But here it is.
(NOTE: You could make the argument that Bant Spirits is a white or green deck depending, but the percentage of mana and cards leans blue - manabase says it's green, card pool says it's blue or white).
Was thinking in those times when midrange with discard was still strong, making black the dominant color. I forgot things have changed.
We would be having an entirely different discussion if Stirrings only looked at 2-3 cards like every blue cantrip ever printed. Your hypothetical example has never, and will never, be printed.
It's inability to find specifically Rest in Peace is irrelevant when it can find any number of other colorless graveyard hate cards.
So let's back it up, which card is better (in modern) to combat graveyard threats:
Is there something better than peer through depths? I mean yeah its 1U and not U, and yeah is Instant/Sorc, instead of 'Blue Card' or something, but I'm curious. Since Peer see's no play that I'm aware of.
EDIT: Actually, I'm not sure I am curious. I'm pretty sure I know the answer and we all know how this goes.
Anyone seen any fun brews or updates to decks lately? I read the new Burn is pretty good.
Peer was played in Modern Storm until Opt was reprinted and Pieces of the Puzzle was printed.
We would be having an entirely different discussion if Stirrings only looked at 2-3 cards like every blue cantrip ever printed. Your hypothetical example has never, and will never, be printed.
It's inability to find specifically Rest in Peace is irrelevant when it can find any number of other colorless graveyard hate cards.
So let's back it up, which card is better (in modern) to combat graveyard threats:
If you don't know the answer go ask a dredge player (it's rest in peace).
So card it can find is worse therefore the ocnsequences are meaningful. Being forced to play a worse card is implicitly meaningful.
The difference is that it can still find graveyard hate. Multiple options even (relic, spellbomb, are there others?). It would be a different discussion of deck building requirements if it could not find any graveyard hate. But it can. Just because it can't find the best graveyard hate, doesn't mean it's a meaningful deck building restriction. The kinds of value and utility that is available in colorless cards is absolutely incredible, and gets stronger with just about every set.
The bottom line is that running this card does not prevent you from finding graveyard hate, and I find it silly to continue discussing the merits of deckbuilding restrictions when six completely different archetypes running vastly different game plans manage to all T8 or win a GP.
Not really constructive, but as of right now, I would rather play any other format over modern. A games outcome is almost always decided on turn 2, i'm pretty sure with some analysis it would be possible to predict the outcome of a game of modern with a 90% accuracy on t2. To me that cant be a sign of a good format.
Don't play it then. I'd argue if you could predict the end of a game on T2, UW Control wouldn't be the second most successful deck in the format, but that might be just me.
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Modern: UR Gifts Storm URB Grixis Death's Shadow R12 Bolt
Pauper: UR Puzzle Pieces
EDH: UB Phenax, God of Deception UR The Locust God UR Saheeli the Gifted WBG Anafenza, the Foremost
Not really constructive, but as of right now, I would rather play any other format over modern. A games outcome is almost always decided on turn 2, i'm pretty sure with some analysis it would be possible to predict the outcome of a game of modern with a 90% accuracy on t2. To me that cant be a sign of a good format.
Don't play it then. I'd argue if you could predict the end of a game on T2, UW Control wouldn't be the second most successful deck in the format, but that might be just me.
While I agree with your sentiment, two fluke European GPs give almost every single UW result of the past year (and was oddly absent from nearly everything else).
given their salt-the-earth policy on blue card draw.
Wizards: Let's print Opt to throw blue players a bone so they can run a suite of 8 decent cantrips
Players: Wizards hates blue
Wizards: Let's print this cool Phoenix thing that synergizes with cantrips, and multiple iterations of strong fliers that synergize with cantrips
Players: Wizards keeps crapping on blue by not unbanning preordain
Wizards: OK, that didn't work, let's print a new pushed delver-esque creature that synergizes with cantrips
Players: SALTED EARTH SALTED EARTH
-------------------------------------------------
I didn't even get into spell queller or teferi or any of the other cool things wizards has been doing for blue (printing new cards to synergize with the cantrips you have, especially).
If what you mean is Wizards has a cautious take toward 1 mana blue draw spells justifiably since Serum Visions (which is unplayable in legacy) is the second most played card in Modern with Opt at #6, then yes, they do.
Preordain is a significant upgrade over opt. It's not about whether it compares to serum visions, since people would run both.
TL;DR The blue persecution complex seriously has got to end After jace, with Serum visions and Snapcaster in the top 1 and 2 spots in their categories, it's time to just let it go.
given their salt-the-earth policy on blue card draw.
Wizards: Let's print Opt to throw blue players a bone so they can run a suite of 8 decent cantrips
Players: Wizards hates blue
Wizards: Let's print this cool Phoenix thing that synergizes with cantrips, and multiple iterations of strong fliers that synergize with cantrips
Players: Wizards keeps crapping on blue by not unbanning preordain
Wizards: OK, that didn't work, let's print a new pushed delver-esque creature that synergizes with cantrips
Players: SALTED EARTH SALTED EARTH
-------------------------------------------------
I didn't even get into spell queller or teferi or any of the other cool things wizards has been doing for blue (printing new cards to synergize with the cantrips you have, especially).
If what you mean is Wizards has a cautious take toward 1 mana blue draw spells justifiably since Serum Visions (which is unplayable in legacy) is the second most played card in Modern with Opt at #6, then yes, they do.
Preordain is a significant upgrade over opt. It's not about whether it compares to serum visions, since people would run both.
TL;DR The blue persecution complex seriously has got to end After jace, with Serum visions and Snapcaster in the top 1 and 2 spots in their categories, it's time to just let it go.
So true. I mean seriously I can get behind believing that SFM and Twin are safe/ good for the format.
But the Legacy cantrips no way. Miracles with 20 Lands and 4 Preordain, 4 Serum, 4 Opt looks dangerous.
UW control is a really powerful deck that *****s on less refined/ bad decks.
Not really constructive, but as of right now, I would rather play any other format over modern. A games outcome is almost always decided on turn 2, i'm pretty sure with some analysis it would be possible to predict the outcome of a game of modern with a 90% accuracy on t2. To me that cant be a sign of a good format.
Don't play it then. I'd argue if you could predict the end of a game on T2, UW Control wouldn't be the second most successful deck in the format, but that might be just me.
Calling UW Control the second most successful deck of the format is kinda of a stretch. It was quite hot during the beginning of the year but that was it. Wizards said it was the second best deck on their post to try to justify not unbanning SFM (like UW Control prevalence and SFM unban relate at all...) but it still isn't accurate.
Anyway, as a UW Control player if it wasn't for Terminus I bet you could predict the outcome of a game by turn 2/3 with high accuracy for the majority of the matchups.
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Currently Playing: WUMiracles ControlUW RUBGrixis Death's ShadowBUR
UW control is a really powerful deck that *****s on less refined/ bad decks.
... Is there a top tier deck that doesn't ***** on less refined/bad decks?
Depends obviously. Look at Burn vs Soul Sisters/Matyr Proc for example.
The reason you can claim that decks like UW/x, GB/x and Deaths Shadow decks are particular good at doing it is because they are pretty much goodstuff decks that are not built around synergies while they can deal with opposing synergies.
given their salt-the-earth policy on blue card draw.
Wizards: Let's print Opt to throw blue players a bone so they can run a suite of 8 decent cantrips
Players: Wizards hates blue
Wizards: Let's print this cool Phoenix thing that synergizes with cantrips, and multiple iterations of strong fliers that synergize with cantrips
Players: Wizards keeps crapping on blue by not unbanning preordain
Wizards: OK, that didn't work, let's print a new pushed delver-esque creature that synergizes with cantrips
Players: SALTED EARTH SALTED EARTH
-------------------------------------------------
I didn't even get into spell queller or teferi or any of the other cool things wizards has been doing for blue (printing new cards to synergize with the cantrips you have, especially).
If what you mean is Wizards has a cautious take toward 1 mana blue draw spells justifiably since Serum Visions (which is unplayable in legacy) is the second most played card in Modern with Opt at #6, then yes, they do.
Preordain is a significant upgrade over opt. It's not about whether it compares to serum visions, since people would run both.
TL;DR The blue persecution complex seriously has got to end After jace, with Serum visions and Snapcaster in the top 1 and 2 spots in their categories, it's time to just let it go.
given their salt-the-earth policy on blue card draw.
Wizards: Let's print Opt to throw blue players a bone so they can run a suite of 8 decent cantrips
Players: Wizards hates blue
Wizards: Let's print this cool Phoenix thing that synergizes with cantrips, and multiple iterations of strong fliers that synergize with cantrips
Players: Wizards keeps crapping on blue by not unbanning preordain
Wizards: OK, that didn't work, let's print a new pushed delver-esque creature that synergizes with cantrips
Players: SALTED EARTH SALTED EARTH
-------------------------------------------------
I didn't even get into spell queller or teferi or any of the other cool things wizards has been doing for blue (printing new cards to synergize with the cantrips you have, especially).
If what you mean is Wizards has a cautious take toward 1 mana blue draw spells justifiably since Serum Visions (which is unplayable in legacy) is the second most played card in Modern with Opt at #6, then yes, they do.
Preordain is a significant upgrade over opt. It's not about whether it compares to serum visions, since people would run both.
TL;DR The blue persecution complex seriously has got to end After jace, with Serum visions and Snapcaster in the top 1 and 2 spots in their categories, it's time to just let it go.
So true. I mean seriously I can get behind believing that SFM and Twin are safe/ good for the format.
But the Legacy cantrips no way. Miracles with 20 Lands and 4 Preordain, 4 Serum, 4 Opt looks dangerous.
UW control is a really powerful deck that *****s on less refined/ bad decks.
I don't really know what Modern decklists you're looking at but the Miracles builds typically don't play both SV and Opt. The norm has become to play 4 Opt and 2 Illumination. (DISCLAIMER: There is people that still prefer to play SV, but it doesn't mean it's the norm nor that it's actually correct...)
I seriously doubt you'd see many lists with 4 Preordain/4 Serum/4 Opt... Playing 12 cantrips there's a really high risk of playing cantrips into air which Modern doesn't allow you to because unlike Legacy you don't have free counters. When I tested a Preordain modern I was playing UW with 4 Preordains and 2 Opts, no SV, no 8 cantrips.
It's really easy to throw this type of hyperbole when trying to justify how Preordain is busted and wouldn't replace SV it would just add up, but I really believe it would help a lot of people when arguing about this stuff to play the decks and feel how they actually play out instead of just making assumptions based on a format that has a totally different dynamic. While at it if people actually had the curiosity to playtest a Preordain environment it would really change their minds.
The argument of UW *****ting on tier 3 decks is actually a non-argument... Apart from Tron back in the day, most tier 1/2 decks ***** on the random brew of the day without too much sweat and I don't really see any problem with that.
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Currently Playing: WUMiracles ControlUW RUBGrixis Death's ShadowBUR
6.19% Grixis Control
5.84% Grixis Delver
4.81% UW Stoneblade
4.81% Jeskai Miracles
3.09% Death's Shadow
2.41% UR Wizards
Unfair decks using cantrips
3.78% Ad Naus
3.44% Sneak and Show
2.75% Reanimator
This shouldn't even be contested. Fair decks have always had more efficiency in Legacy with cantrips compared to combo and linear decks.
His point was not that "Unfair decks are doing better in the overall metagame". His point was that "Unfair decks benefit more from having good cantrips". Your argument seems to conflate the two, which is just dumb to be honest. That's like saying "Fair decks have always had more efficiency in Legacy with Islands compared to combo and linear decks." It's a meaningless statement.
"Unfair" decks attempt to dig to find combo engines in order to win the game immediately while "Fair" decks are digging to find answers to various threats. The increase in win probability from drawing a removal spell vs. a land is completely different from the increase in win probability from drawing a gifts ungiven vs. a land.
I think saying that Sleight of Hand -> Preordain is much better in Storm than UW is fairly uncontroversial. Given that UW doesn't even run sleight of hand or serum visions because digging slightly deeper is not worth losing instant speed in Opt.
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Modern UWUW ControlUW UGWSpiritsUGW GHardened ScalesG WGRUKiki PodWGRU [RIP]
To be fair a not long time ago, Legacy Miracles played 4 SDT and 4 Brainstorm and 0-2 Ponders for years. Until they found out it was suboptimal and then almost everyone played 4 Ponders.
Maxing out on cantrips is very potent and would be very dangerous with Preordain.
6.19% Grixis Control
5.84% Grixis Delver
4.81% UW Stoneblade
4.81% Jeskai Miracles
3.09% Death's Shadow
2.41% UR Wizards
Unfair decks using cantrips
3.78% Ad Naus
3.44% Sneak and Show
2.75% Reanimator
This shouldn't even be contested. Fair decks have always had more efficiency in Legacy with cantrips compared to combo and linear decks.
His point was not that "Unfair decks are doing better in the overall metagame". His point was that "Unfair decks benefit more from having good cantrips". Your argument seems to conflate the two, which is just dumb to be honest. That's like saying "Fair decks have always had more efficiency in Legacy with Islands compared to combo and linear decks." It's a meaningless statement.
"Unfair" decks attempt to dig to find combo engines in order to win the game immediately while "Fair" decks are digging to find answers to various threats. The increase in win probability from drawing a removal spell vs. a land is completely different from the increase in win probability from drawing a gifts ungiven vs. a land.
I think saying that Sleight of Hand -> Preordain is much better in Storm than UW is fairly uncontroversial. Given that UW doesn't even run sleight of hand or serum visions because digging slightly deeper is not worth losing instant speed in Opt.
And yet my argument was exactly in the quote you cited. So what are you actually conflating? He responded to my original post, and I restated my argument in the exact citation you posted.
I think you need to step back from this conversation, you are distracting from the main argument I made.
So true. I mean seriously I can get behind believing that SFM and Twin are safe/ good for the format.
But the Legacy cantrips no way. Miracles with 20 Lands and 4 Preordain, 4 Serum, 4 Opt looks dangerous.
UW control is a really powerful deck that *****s on less refined/ bad decks.
Never mind that Modern UW Miracles doesn't play Serum Visions, and chooses to play wonky stuff like Hieroglyph Illumination because instant speed draw is more important for Terminus. Unless something drastically changed since I gave up that pile of cards a few months ago.
Is instant speed good to trigger miracle? Of course. But Scry 2 also help you in getting it there in the first place or prevents it from being there.
The advantage of Hieroglyphic Illumination is its dual nature by being both a cantrip and a card advantage spell. Olsen decided that additional sources of Scry was better and that's OK. Since there is no real or wrong way to build it. Just preferences.
Its very much a moot point though no? Its not as if Preordain would be a build around, or do anything interesting. Its a consistency tool which Wizards is on record as being afraid of.
Its not like SFM or even Twin or Dark Depths even! Its just a card that would do little but offer a % or 2 boost here or there.
I dont know. I'd rather some build arounds come down to Modern out of Standard and spawn some new decks at this point. I mean I'll be watching as much of the SCG Standard event this weekend, first time I'll even care that I can remember, because there are literally dozens of new decks, updates, or innovations taking place in that format, its crazy.
Its very much a moot point though no? Its not as if Preordain would be a build around, or do anything interesting. Its a consistency tool which Wizards is on record as being afraid of.
Its not like SFM or even Twin or Dark Depths even! Its just a card that would do little but offer a % or 2 boost here or there.
I dont know. I'd rather some build arounds come down to Modern out of Standard and spawn some new decks at this point. I mean I'll be watching as much of the SCG Standard event this weekend, first time I'll even care that I can remember, because there are literally dozens of new decks, updates, or innovations taking place in that format, its crazy.
This is how I see it. Wizards just doesn't want the extra percentage points of consistency for Blue. It's sad to me that what I'm saying is essentially a moot point right now. Hopefully in the future, it won't be. I am also of the opinion that it just helps 5-10 decks slightly, 2-3 of which are Tier 1 or close.
Standard does indeed look interesting. I may also end up jumping into that because Modern feels a bit stale to me.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Standard does indeed look interesting. I may also end up jumping into that because Modern feels a bit stale to me.
I would, there is so much going on, and based on what lists are seeing success on Arena, you can play anything from Aggro to Combo, to Tribal, to Control, to Burn. Its almost exhausting as there is so much going on and so much refinement taking place.
Modern, its still Modern. I fired up Burn yesterday (I think) and my first game was against Merfolk. Just Swiftspears, Guides, and Burn spells gets it done, same as it has since Theros.
If anyone doesnt believe me on the diversity, just follow @arenadecklists its insane.
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UW Spirits
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What you're saying is just a factually incorrect statement an here's why:
Which card is better in modern?
A) U, look at the top 5 and choose one card
B) G, look at the top 5 and choose a colorless card
When you answer A, it should hopefully explain that Ancient Stirrings comes with some meaningful deckbuilding consequences.
And it's not even a little bit better. Card A is *so much better* as to be laughable. No one would ever play ancient stirrings again in anything if card A was legal. Except maybe as a second, worse Card A in UG Tron.
---------------------------------------
Another way to look at this is by comparing cards you can find that serve a function:
Supreme Verdict is significantly stronger than Oblivion Stone *even in the context of Tron*. If Tron could play 4 for Supreme Verdict and find it with Stirrings, you would never see another ostone played.
Rest in Peace is a significantly better graveyard hoser than Relic of Progenitus. If Tron could find Rest in Peace with Ancient Stirrings, you would never see another Relic.
These things are easy to conceptualize.
While Stirrings decks do everything they can to minimize the deckbuilding consequences (playing Engineered Explosives or OStone instead of Verdict, for example) they do not completely obviate the consequences. The cards you can find are worse. And that is meaningful.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
It's inability to find specifically Rest in Peace is irrelevant when it can find any number of other colorless graveyard hate cards.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
EDIT: Actually, I'm not sure I am curious. I'm pretty sure I know the answer and we all know how this goes.
Anyone seen any fun brews or updates to decks lately? I read the new Burn is pretty good.
Spirits
Was thinking in those times when midrange with discard was still strong, making black the dominant color. I forgot things have changed.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
So let's back it up, which card is better (in modern) to combat graveyard threats:
Rest in Peace
Relic of Progenitus
If you don't know the answer go ask a dredge player (it's rest in peace).
So card it can find is worse therefore the ocnsequences are meaningful. Being forced to play a worse card is implicitly meaningful.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
In meta news, is this the most recent posting? I cannot search Wizards site to save my soul.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/modern-challenge-11774980#paper
Spirits
To get to all the mtgo results you have to go to Products -> Magic Online -> Decklists. They're not in the articles or events archive for some reason. https://magic.wizards.com/en/content/deck-lists-magic-online-products-game-info
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/modern-mocs-2019-01-21
Spirits
The difference is that it can still find graveyard hate. Multiple options even (relic, spellbomb, are there others?). It would be a different discussion of deck building requirements if it could not find any graveyard hate. But it can. Just because it can't find the best graveyard hate, doesn't mean it's a meaningful deck building restriction. The kinds of value and utility that is available in colorless cards is absolutely incredible, and gets stronger with just about every set.
The bottom line is that running this card does not prevent you from finding graveyard hate, and I find it silly to continue discussing the merits of deckbuilding restrictions when six completely different archetypes running vastly different game plans manage to all T8 or win a GP.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Don't play it then. I'd argue if you could predict the end of a game on T2, UW Control wouldn't be the second most successful deck in the format, but that might be just me.
Pauper: UR Puzzle Pieces
EDH: UB Phenax, God of Deception UR The Locust God UR Saheeli the Gifted WBG Anafenza, the Foremost
While I agree with your sentiment, two fluke European GPs give almost every single UW result of the past year (and was oddly absent from nearly everything else).
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
So true. I mean seriously I can get behind believing that SFM and Twin are safe/ good for the format.
But the Legacy cantrips no way. Miracles with 20 Lands and 4 Preordain, 4 Serum, 4 Opt looks dangerous.
UW control is a really powerful deck that *****s on less refined/ bad decks.
Anyway, as a UW Control player if it wasn't for Terminus I bet you could predict the outcome of a game by turn 2/3 with high accuracy for the majority of the matchups.
WUMiracles ControlUW
RUBGrixis Death's ShadowBUR
... Is there a top tier deck that doesn't ***** on less refined/bad decks?
Depends obviously. Look at Burn vs Soul Sisters/Matyr Proc for example.
The reason you can claim that decks like UW/x, GB/x and Deaths Shadow decks are particular good at doing it is because they are pretty much goodstuff decks that are not built around synergies while they can deal with opposing synergies.
I seriously doubt you'd see many lists with 4 Preordain/4 Serum/4 Opt... Playing 12 cantrips there's a really high risk of playing cantrips into air which Modern doesn't allow you to because unlike Legacy you don't have free counters. When I tested a Preordain modern I was playing UW with 4 Preordains and 2 Opts, no SV, no 8 cantrips.
It's really easy to throw this type of hyperbole when trying to justify how Preordain is busted and wouldn't replace SV it would just add up, but I really believe it would help a lot of people when arguing about this stuff to play the decks and feel how they actually play out instead of just making assumptions based on a format that has a totally different dynamic. While at it if people actually had the curiosity to playtest a Preordain environment it would really change their minds.
The argument of UW *****ting on tier 3 decks is actually a non-argument... Apart from Tron back in the day, most tier 1/2 decks ***** on the random brew of the day without too much sweat and I don't really see any problem with that.
WUMiracles ControlUW
RUBGrixis Death's ShadowBUR
His point was not that "Unfair decks are doing better in the overall metagame". His point was that "Unfair decks benefit more from having good cantrips". Your argument seems to conflate the two, which is just dumb to be honest. That's like saying "Fair decks have always had more efficiency in Legacy with Islands compared to combo and linear decks." It's a meaningless statement.
"Unfair" decks attempt to dig to find combo engines in order to win the game immediately while "Fair" decks are digging to find answers to various threats. The increase in win probability from drawing a removal spell vs. a land is completely different from the increase in win probability from drawing a gifts ungiven vs. a land.
I think saying that Sleight of Hand -> Preordain is much better in Storm than UW is fairly uncontroversial. Given that UW doesn't even run sleight of hand or serum visions because digging slightly deeper is not worth losing instant speed in Opt.
UWUW ControlUW
UGWSpiritsUGW
GHardened ScalesG
WGRUKiki PodWGRU [RIP]
Maxing out on cantrips is very potent and would be very dangerous with Preordain.
And yet my argument was exactly in the quote you cited. So what are you actually conflating? He responded to my original post, and I restated my argument in the exact citation you posted.
I think you need to step back from this conversation, you are distracting from the main argument I made.
Never mind that Modern UW Miracles doesn't play Serum Visions, and chooses to play wonky stuff like Hieroglyph Illumination because instant speed draw is more important for Terminus. Unless something drastically changed since I gave up that pile of cards a few months ago.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Is instant speed good to trigger miracle? Of course. But Scry 2 also help you in getting it there in the first place or prevents it from being there.
The advantage of Hieroglyphic Illumination is its dual nature by being both a cantrip and a card advantage spell. Olsen decided that additional sources of Scry was better and that's OK. Since there is no real or wrong way to build it. Just preferences.
Its not like SFM or even Twin or Dark Depths even! Its just a card that would do little but offer a % or 2 boost here or there.
I dont know. I'd rather some build arounds come down to Modern out of Standard and spawn some new decks at this point. I mean I'll be watching as much of the SCG Standard event this weekend, first time I'll even care that I can remember, because there are literally dozens of new decks, updates, or innovations taking place in that format, its crazy.
Spirits
This is how I see it. Wizards just doesn't want the extra percentage points of consistency for Blue. It's sad to me that what I'm saying is essentially a moot point right now. Hopefully in the future, it won't be. I am also of the opinion that it just helps 5-10 decks slightly, 2-3 of which are Tier 1 or close.
Standard does indeed look interesting. I may also end up jumping into that because Modern feels a bit stale to me.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I would, there is so much going on, and based on what lists are seeing success on Arena, you can play anything from Aggro to Combo, to Tribal, to Control, to Burn. Its almost exhausting as there is so much going on and so much refinement taking place.
Modern, its still Modern. I fired up Burn yesterday (I think) and my first game was against Merfolk. Just Swiftspears, Guides, and Burn spells gets it done, same as it has since Theros.
If anyone doesnt believe me on the diversity, just follow @arenadecklists its insane.
Spirits