Relic is still a pretty good Magic card, and everyone Surgical. If the hands were not both hilariously explosive, and hilariously consistent, AND the decks could not attack on angles that invalidate targetted answers...well they would not be the best decks of the format.
Alot of these arguments for Looting are similar to Vengevine and Survival in Legacy. Wotc won't stop printing Phoenix, chills etc so the best cause of action is to simply ban looting
they also wont stop printing creatures with various sub-types like humans, lands with effects and abilities to tutor with prime time or kotr, sub 4 cmc creatures for coco, cheap spells for snapcaster to flash back, artifacts to search up with whir, legendary creatures to reanimate with goryo's, payoffs worth accelerating out with SSG, some new interaction with fetch lands, etc, etc.
arguments should be made about decks being too strong, too good, too oppressive, or whatever and however you want to qualify some grievance. expecting wizards to never take risks or cultivate the unfair or the degenerate styles of play that define the identity of a format like modern just isnt reasonable. the point is to make sure that no significant gap is created between such decks or strategies and more normalized play patterns that most identify with the fair or interactive.
does that gap exist right now? arguably yes.
can its existence be laid solely at the feet of faithless lootings? absolutely not. it just happens to be in the spotlight, and attacking a subset of strategies by banning and subsequently crippling those decks or any future ones hardly seems like balancing the format.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Its not looting that is the root of Moderns state. It isnt looting, it isnt stirrings, and it isnt terminus.
Its the void missing at the top of the metagame that says 'no actually slow down'.
I'd love to see the format slow down so that a wider range of control/midrange can do well, but I don't know what needs to happen for that to be possible.
I'd probably still be fine with a looting or stirrings ban but I'd rather not see any bannings
I think abzan has all the tools needed to slow the format. I played a version tonight heavier on pw card advantage type cards and no 1 mana discard cards and it felt great. It hates on gy’s really well. Hates on lands rather well and gums up aggro really well too. Going the walker route (I’m playing 7) with cards like tireless tracker grinds vs control too. The tools are out there you just need to build your deck for the meta. A deck like abzan also doesn’t tend to just lose to t3 random decks either.
Its not looting that is the root of Moderns state. It isnt looting, it isnt stirrings, and it isnt terminus.
Its the void missing at the top of the metagame that says 'no actually slow down'.
I'd love to see the format slow down so that a wider range of control/midrange can do well, but I don't know what needs to happen for that to be possible.
I'd probably still be fine with a looting or stirrings ban but I'd rather not see any bannings
What slowed down decks in the past? We all know Jund cannot do it. UW can do it kind of, when it lucks out and hits that Terminus, assuming it didnt die already. UWR? Well if you remember I was very big on UWR at the start of last year. If Phoenix keeps up this absolutely mental rate of domination, I'm sure UW or UWR can tune to beat it. GDS? Well Humans is already creeping back up (and UWR's success was in a Humans meta) so...assuming Phoenix is not able to maintain a 33% Top 8 success rate...maybe things dissipate back into 7 Shades of Aggro.
Thats still not the solution though, not really, unless you like 7 Shades of Aggro.
Always amused by people's opinions on 'card selection' OP ban it all (a huge part of this is WotC's stance on B&R list maintenance).
Every colour does it the issue isn't that it happens or the cost but the disparity between what colours have access to.
IE banning stuff never solves the problem!
(Off topic example education the issue isn't that one group has more or better it's that the other group don't have fair access to it. You don't make things better by taking stuff from other people.)
Would love to see sfm come off the ban list and maybe a new squadron hawk printed in white.
Preordain unbanned in blue
Red keeps faithless looting
Green keeps ancient stirrings and gets a sylvan librarian designed to help fair decks
And finally black get a reasonable tutor eg cruel tutor power level(ish)
Essentially what I'm saying is they'll keep printing cool cards that break decks for short periods of time. But if they keep lopsided banning of certain enablers they guarantee having to ban other enablers in the future.
If only it was about colors. It's more about color combinations and archetypes. You unban Preordain as if it didn't overlap in Looting decks, you associate Stirrings and Library while they don't serve the same archetypes and color combinations. And so on. I mean, it can work, but that's some random speculation you make here.
Banning stuff solves an issue for an upcoming big tournament. It shakes the metagame and it's good for the audience on Twitch. In your analogy, Wizards bans dangerous weapons that some pupils carry at school, not some yummy cookies.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
If we want the format to slow down, there are only really 2 options:
Ban the cards that are enabling the fastest decks in the format
Print new cards that effectively answer the fastest decks in the format
Every time someone brings up cards like swords to plowshares, Force of Will, or even counterspell people freak out about how control is going to take over the format. I feel that something has to give at some point though and my preference would be to add new cards to the format rather than reshaping the format through bannings. By adding better answer cards to the format people who want to jam aggressive strategies are still free to, but they would have to accept that it won't be as easy as executing your own strategy in a vacuum and will have to consider how the opponent may disrupt them.
After reading this thread for the last few months, there seems to be a general consensus that banning cards from the best 3-5 aggressive strategies is not a great option. This leaves us with only one option if we are to slow the format down and make it more interactive, print better answers! I'm very optimistic with the introduction of straight to modern set design, hopefully the new cards help to slow down the format a little bit and encourage players to build decks with considerations beyond just gold-fishing kills by turns 3-4.
I'm still hoping the new cards from MH1 can change things modern.
Maybe there's something there that can tone down the power level of the looting decks.
____________________
Checked email today. Saw a newsletter from SCG Philadelphia.
If we want the format to slow down, there are only really 2 options:
Ban the cards that are enabling the fastest decks in the format
Print new cards that effectively answer the fastest decks in the format
Every time someone brings up cards like swords to plowshares, Force of Will, or even counterspell people freak out about how control is going to take over the format. I feel that something has to give at some point though and my preference would be to add new cards to the format rather than reshaping the format through bannings. By adding better answer cards to the format people who want to jam aggressive strategies are still free to, but they would have to accept that it won't be as easy as executing your own strategy in a vacuum and will have to consider how the opponent may disrupt them.
After reading this thread for the last few months, there seems to be a general consensus that banning cards from the best 3-5 aggressive strategies is not a great option. This leaves us with only one option if we are to slow the format down and make it more interactive, print better answers! I'm very optimistic with the introduction of straight to modern set design, hopefully the new cards help to slow down the format a little bit and encourage players to build decks with considerations beyond just gold-fishing kills by turns 3-4.
Yeah I agree with those thoughts. I also fell asleep thinking 'banning KCI was a mistake, we need more Turn 4 combo's, not less'. I'm sure I'll get dragged over that though.
Essentially what I'm saying is they'll keep printing cool cards that break decks for short periods of time. But if they keep lopsided banning of certain enablers they guarantee having to ban other enablers in the future.
Exactly this, and its going to be like this forever if we cannot put a cap on the formats speed through the presence of some other (currently not existing) decks.
Always amused by people's opinions on 'card selection' OP ban it all (a huge part of this is WotC's stance on B&R list maintenance).
Every colour does it the issue isn't that it happens or the cost but the disparity between what colours have access to.
IE banning stuff never solves the problem!
(Off topic example education the issue isn't that one group has more or better it's that the other group don't have fair access to it. You don't make things better by taking stuff from other people.)
Would love to see sfm come off the ban list and maybe a new squadron hawk printed in white.
Preordain unbanned in blue
Red keeps faithless looting
Green keeps ancient stirrings and gets a sylvan librarian designed to help fair decks
And finally black get a reasonable tutor eg cruel tutor power level(ish)
Essentially what I'm saying is they'll keep printing cool cards that break decks for short periods of time. But if they keep lopsided banning of certain enablers they guarantee having to ban other enablers in the future.
This isn't a madden team where you just sign the highest overall players and run with it. It needs synergy what you proposed would flat out make things worse. Preordain would be played in most of the looting decks making them better.
Library and Stirrings don't necessarily go together.and wouldn't make things better. We do need a shake up
I can agree that I'm speculating. but banning hasn't worked since the format was in its infancy eg seething song, blazing shoal
Adding cards will always increase power and degeneracy unless you allow players consistent access to their sideboard cards. So give them tools to find them.
If dredge was going to play against leyline or tormods crypt every game 2 and 3 it'd need a lot more than creeping chill to have people pick it up as often as they do.
And I do think most bannings have been to appease players not ban dangerous weapons. I think you're misunderstanding my analogy.
(All of this card game is wonderful cookies, we're all arguing over which filling or frosting is everyone's favourite without asking everyone)
@crashcapt - the point wasn't that the cards go together the point is they allow a variety of decks no matter what colour they are the ability to find what they need.
When answers are fairly balanced against threats we're hoping to get a format where the most skilled players can put in a lot of practice with whatever variety of deck they want to play and win.
I'm curious what everyone thinks will happen after we print better answers. (As seems to be the consensus.)
I can't get away from the idea that better answers beget better threats and better threats beget better answers. I just see a spiral into "not-legacy-but-it's-legacy". If someone could drive me off this thought process, I would very much appreciate it, but often the discussion stops at "bans vs answers" and we never get into the second and third order affects of that choice.
I don't want bans either, but if the idea is to avoid becoming legacy (in whatever long run time frame) then bans are probably very necessary at a certain point. I would also assume a very large and careful amount of thought be put into them.
As far as answers do actually go, how do we improve on what we have? Are we willing to see a better Bolt, Path, Push, Thoughtseize, or Terminus? I would venture the answer comes with some hesitation.
Yeah I agree with those thoughts. I also fell asleep thinking 'banning KCI was a mistake, we need more Turn 4 combo's, not less'. I'm sure I'll get dragged over that though.
I'm right there with you. I completely agree with that too and even went on a "posting spree" on FB about it among friends, many of whom disagree with me on many things. The issue with KCI is the time it can take for even an average player to go through the steps and that Wizards "hates" the "loophole" interaction of sacrificing KCI, Trawler, and Retriever to pay for a Chromatic Star.
I think with KCI gone, it firmly plants 2 decks near the top, one of which is a (well, sort of) Tempo deck. Players can't complain that there is no playable Tempo or Scalding Tarn deck anymore. I'm not sure if it is enough to appease Tempo players, but the power level is certainly nothing to complain about anymore.
@Arkmer - I think you have to go slowly. I definitely wouldn't suggest putting Daze and Force of Will in the Modern landscape. The pendulum needs to be helped to swing back if it can't self correct and by slowly, I do not mean that Stoneforge Mystic should be unbanned 3 years after it should have already have been. That is taking "slowly" to a real extreme.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I think with KCI gone, it firmly plants 2 decks near the top, one of which is a (well, sort of) Tempo deck. Players can't complain that there is no playable Tempo or Scalding Tarn deck anymore. I'm not sure if it is enough to appease Tempo players, but the power level is certainly nothing to complain about anymore.
I may have misrepresented my personal opinion on the matter, or may have a different personal definition of Tempo. I essentially want to do as much as humanly possible on my opponent's end step in order to gain tempo advantage. Either they deal with my thing and tap out/low so I untap and slam a big thing, or they don't and I gain that incremental advantage with little drawback.
Nothing bores me more or feels more tedious than playing spells on my own turn, and it's sad to me that the best "Steam Vents" decks play almost exclusively on their own turn. It's definitely nice to have powerful steam vents deck again, and I definitely play both of them, but it would be nice to actually have like a Delver/Snap/Bolt/Remand deck again; at least while Exarch and Pestermite aren't being cast.
I'm curious what everyone thinks will happen after we print better answers. (As seems to be the consensus.)
I can't get away from the idea that better answers beget better threats and better threats beget better answers. I just see a spiral into "not-legacy-but-it's-legacy". If someone could drive me off this thought process, I would very much appreciate it, but often the discussion stops at "bans vs answers" and we never get into the second and third order affects of that choice.
I don't want bans either, but if the idea is to avoid becoming legacy (in whatever long run time frame) then bans are probably very necessary at a certain point. I would also assume a very large and careful amount of thought be put into them.
As far as answers do actually go, how do we improve on what we have? Are we willing to see a better Bolt, Path, Push, Thoughtseize, or Terminus? I would venture the answer comes with some hesitation.
First, we would have to come to a concensus on even IF there is an issue. I think its comical to pretend there is not one, when ~49% of the top 8's on aggregate over 3 events across the globe are 2 decks, but...why what do I know?
So lets just say 'yep idSurge, you are in charge'.
I do 2 things.
1. Print better answers.
Path is a Tempo loss. Its a HUGE liability against several decks.
Counters in the 2cmc are comically underpowered, contextual, and depending on game state fundamentally useless or nonfunctional.
Removal is in many cases insufficient in comparison to the potential starts some decks can have, and when combined with hate that often costs 2cmc or more, it is too late.
2. There is fundamentally a gap in the meta, 2 actually, and its being exploited by Aggro to warp the format.
Control is suffering because of the diversity of the meta, and the lack of generally applicable answers. The only Control deck in the format is actually Terminus + Walkers. Its not seeking to 'Control' the board, the stack, or anything. Luck out on an Opt/Terminus on turns 3 or 4, and slam Jace/Teferi. The reason for this is, poor removal (too slow, or its worse than Terminus) and the Modern Counter Suite is either terrible, or costs 4 (Cryptic).
The issue is, how do we empower Control without making 'fair' midrange/creatures invalid? I firmly believe Terminus is a toxic card in the format. You cannot play around blind random top decks, and its a skill decreasing card.
Secondly, Combo is broken in the format. Someone has a link in their signature here about how Combo must be faster than Aggro, otherwise, just Aggro (in short?) well Wizards, and really the player base, does not allow Combo to exist consistently.
KCI should not have been banned. Twin should not have been banned. More Turn 4 Combo's (as this is a Turn 4 format is it not?) should exist that if you let them goldfish YOU WILL LOSE.
This would force decks to dilute their own game plan, or understand that they must race the combo deck. Which is where we start to come into things like better answers to the fact that consistent combo needs to be able to be disrupted to not take over the format.
Make Control play a Control game, but give it the tools to do so.
Make Green/White/Black creature decks that just want to play a fair game (Jund/Junk/Knightfall/Rock/Zoo) able to do so without clenching their cheeks at every draw step.
Make Combo a real presence in the meta, such that Aggro needs to dilute their plan to disrupt, or lose on Turn 4 with regularity.
This would accomplish.
1. Meta representation for all decks.
2. Slow down the Aggro train without banning out 7+ Decks (Looting+Stirrings must be both banned if you ban one of them)
what aggro are warping the formats? Humans was the only aggro deck to make t8 last weekend. are we considering Izzet phoenix aggro? because imho its definitely tempo
I think WOTC has a decision to make, modern is supposed to be a fair format or it isnt? what kind of decks do we want? Jund and Abzan grinding or t3 karn.
A slower, fair format allows fair combo to exist, it allows control to exist same for aggro and midrange. Thats a healthy format. Unfair decks stop other decks from being able to exist in the meta. Tron being arround stops several decks from being playable
what aggro are warping the formats? Humans was the only aggro deck to make t8 last weekend. are we considering Izzet phoenix aggro? because imho its definitely tempo
I think WOTC has a decision to make, modern is supposed to be a fair format or it isnt? what kind of decks do we want? Jund and Abzan grinding or t3 karn.
A slower, fair format allows fair combo to exist, it allows control to exist same for aggro and midrange. Thats a healthy format. Unfair decks stop other decks from being able to exist in the meta. Tron being arround stops several decks from being playable
Without getting into the minutia of applying labels to decks.
Are you looking to kill an opponent with creatures/face burn, as quickly as possible? You are on the Aggro spectrum.
Phoenix is aggro. You can (and I have many times) go Turn 2 Thing, Turn 3 Flip + Phoenix x 2 and if you got a bolt in there, that is 16 damage. That is not 'tempo'.
I guess there is a pointless discussion to be held here. Like looting is a tempo play acting like a draw 4 but it is pointless in the end of the day
Thing is in the ice we have almost 3 months between now and the release of modern horizons. if printing answers is the solution, we will have this meta, in this state for that long?
I guess there is a pointless discussion to be held here. Like looting is a tempo play acting like a draw 4 but it is pointless in the end of the day
Thing is in the ice we have almost 3 months between now and the release of modern horizons. if printing answers is the solution, we will have this meta, in this state for that long?
Thats assuming Wizards had the forsight to print answers, that specifically answer the combination of Phoenix and Dredge.
And yes, I would prefer to see what Horizons does before we ban out 7 decks.
I mean Dredge maybe...Phoenix though presumably wasn't a concern at all when they did Modern Horizons unless they went back and rewrote some cards. I guess you can hope they recognized the need for grave hate since KCI was around exploiting trips to the graveyard. But any hate against Izzet Phoenix is probably incidental. They probably spent more effort boosting weak tribals.
Nothing bores me more or feels more tedious than playing spells on my own turn, and it's sad to me that the best "Steam Vents" decks play almost exclusively on their own turn. It's definitely nice to have powerful steam vents deck again, and I definitely play both of them, but it would be nice to actually have like a Delver/Snap/Bolt/Remand deck again; at least while Exarch and Pestermite aren't being cast.
doesnt grixis delver and grixis DS both fit this description? granted delver isnt high on the tier list but DS certainly is.
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Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
Nothing bores me more or feels more tedious than playing spells on my own turn, and it's sad to me that the best "Steam Vents" decks play almost exclusively on their own turn. It's definitely nice to have powerful steam vents deck again, and I definitely play both of them, but it would be nice to actually have like a Delver/Snap/Bolt/Remand deck again; at least while Exarch and Pestermite aren't being cast.
doesnt grixis delver and grixis DS both fit this description? granted delver isnt high on the tier list but DS certainly is.
GDS needs to cast it's threats after a bunch of digging, but cfusionpm does indeed play GDS.
There is no way around a Looting ban. The card is way too powerful.
People are packing a bunch of gy hate and dredge still has a 56% winrate. That is ridicolous
Much like my view of Probe, I find it ironic that a card which has been legal in Modern for nearly the entirety of the existence of the format, is suddenly broken. But nobody seems to address that the reason why it's "broken" is specifically due to newprintings that abuse free, uncounterable graveyard abilities.
I 2/3rds agree with you. I agree it's similar to Probe (which I felt shouldn't have been banned). I agree that Lootings has been fine for ever. But I disagree that it's simply because of new printings. New printings have made those decks more popular, but the real issue in my mind is that the format lacks general answers to those strategies which can be deployed by almost any deck.
Hey, rwcraspy, long time, no see. What's up? I agree, but a question. What format has answers that can be deployed in every deck? For Example, Legacy has Force of will / daze / etc, but only blue decks can play those answers, toxic deluge is black, etc, etc. So, what do you mean?
Yeah, that's a good point. I should amend to say powerful, broad answers available in each color. And of course when it comes to the graveyard there's already a lot of artifact (playable by all decks, technically) based hate.
Spirits
arguments should be made about decks being too strong, too good, too oppressive, or whatever and however you want to qualify some grievance. expecting wizards to never take risks or cultivate the unfair or the degenerate styles of play that define the identity of a format like modern just isnt reasonable. the point is to make sure that no significant gap is created between such decks or strategies and more normalized play patterns that most identify with the fair or interactive.
does that gap exist right now? arguably yes.
can its existence be laid solely at the feet of faithless lootings? absolutely not. it just happens to be in the spotlight, and attacking a subset of strategies by banning and subsequently crippling those decks or any future ones hardly seems like balancing the format.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Its the void missing at the top of the metagame that says 'no actually slow down'.
Spirits
I'd love to see the format slow down so that a wider range of control/midrange can do well, but I don't know what needs to happen for that to be possible.
I'd probably still be fine with a looting or stirrings ban but I'd rather not see any bannings
What slowed down decks in the past? We all know Jund cannot do it. UW can do it kind of, when it lucks out and hits that Terminus, assuming it didnt die already. UWR? Well if you remember I was very big on UWR at the start of last year. If Phoenix keeps up this absolutely mental rate of domination, I'm sure UW or UWR can tune to beat it. GDS? Well Humans is already creeping back up (and UWR's success was in a Humans meta) so...assuming Phoenix is not able to maintain a 33% Top 8 success rate...maybe things dissipate back into 7 Shades of Aggro.
Thats still not the solution though, not really, unless you like 7 Shades of Aggro.
Spirits
Every colour does it the issue isn't that it happens or the cost but the disparity between what colours have access to.
IE banning stuff never solves the problem!
(Off topic example education the issue isn't that one group has more or better it's that the other group don't have fair access to it. You don't make things better by taking stuff from other people.)
Would love to see sfm come off the ban list and maybe a new squadron hawk printed in white.
Preordain unbanned in blue
Red keeps faithless looting
Green keeps ancient stirrings and gets a sylvan librarian designed to help fair decks
And finally black get a reasonable tutor eg cruel tutor power level(ish)
Essentially what I'm saying is they'll keep printing cool cards that break decks for short periods of time. But if they keep lopsided banning of certain enablers they guarantee having to ban other enablers in the future.
Legacy - LED Dredge, ANT & WDnT
Banning stuff solves an issue for an upcoming big tournament. It shakes the metagame and it's good for the audience on Twitch. In your analogy, Wizards bans dangerous weapons that some pupils carry at school, not some yummy cookies.
After reading this thread for the last few months, there seems to be a general consensus that banning cards from the best 3-5 aggressive strategies is not a great option. This leaves us with only one option if we are to slow the format down and make it more interactive, print better answers! I'm very optimistic with the introduction of straight to modern set design, hopefully the new cards help to slow down the format a little bit and encourage players to build decks with considerations beyond just gold-fishing kills by turns 3-4.
Maybe there's something there that can tone down the power level of the looting decks.
____________________
Checked email today. Saw a newsletter from SCG Philadelphia.
Another victory for UR Phoenix..
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Yeah I agree with those thoughts. I also fell asleep thinking 'banning KCI was a mistake, we need more Turn 4 combo's, not less'. I'm sure I'll get dragged over that though.
Exactly this, and its going to be like this forever if we cannot put a cap on the formats speed through the presence of some other (currently not existing) decks.
Spirits
This isn't a madden team where you just sign the highest overall players and run with it. It needs synergy what you proposed would flat out make things worse. Preordain would be played in most of the looting decks making them better.
Library and Stirrings don't necessarily go together.and wouldn't make things better. We do need a shake up
Adding cards will always increase power and degeneracy unless you allow players consistent access to their sideboard cards. So give them tools to find them.
If dredge was going to play against leyline or tormods crypt every game 2 and 3 it'd need a lot more than creeping chill to have people pick it up as often as they do.
And I do think most bannings have been to appease players not ban dangerous weapons. I think you're misunderstanding my analogy.
(All of this card game is wonderful cookies, we're all arguing over which filling or frosting is everyone's favourite without asking everyone)
@crashcapt - the point wasn't that the cards go together the point is they allow a variety of decks no matter what colour they are the ability to find what they need.
When answers are fairly balanced against threats we're hoping to get a format where the most skilled players can put in a lot of practice with whatever variety of deck they want to play and win.
Legacy - LED Dredge, ANT & WDnT
I can't get away from the idea that better answers beget better threats and better threats beget better answers. I just see a spiral into "not-legacy-but-it's-legacy". If someone could drive me off this thought process, I would very much appreciate it, but often the discussion stops at "bans vs answers" and we never get into the second and third order affects of that choice.
I don't want bans either, but if the idea is to avoid becoming legacy (in whatever long run time frame) then bans are probably very necessary at a certain point. I would also assume a very large and careful amount of thought be put into them.
As far as answers do actually go, how do we improve on what we have? Are we willing to see a better Bolt, Path, Push, Thoughtseize, or Terminus? I would venture the answer comes with some hesitation.
"Reveal a Dragon"
I'm right there with you. I completely agree with that too and even went on a "posting spree" on FB about it among friends, many of whom disagree with me on many things. The issue with KCI is the time it can take for even an average player to go through the steps and that Wizards "hates" the "loophole" interaction of sacrificing KCI, Trawler, and Retriever to pay for a Chromatic Star.
I think with KCI gone, it firmly plants 2 decks near the top, one of which is a (well, sort of) Tempo deck. Players can't complain that there is no playable Tempo or Scalding Tarn deck anymore. I'm not sure if it is enough to appease Tempo players, but the power level is certainly nothing to complain about anymore.
@Arkmer - I think you have to go slowly. I definitely wouldn't suggest putting Daze and Force of Will in the Modern landscape. The pendulum needs to be helped to swing back if it can't self correct and by slowly, I do not mean that Stoneforge Mystic should be unbanned 3 years after it should have already have been. That is taking "slowly" to a real extreme.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I may have misrepresented my personal opinion on the matter, or may have a different personal definition of Tempo. I essentially want to do as much as humanly possible on my opponent's end step in order to gain tempo advantage. Either they deal with my thing and tap out/low so I untap and slam a big thing, or they don't and I gain that incremental advantage with little drawback.
Nothing bores me more or feels more tedious than playing spells on my own turn, and it's sad to me that the best "Steam Vents" decks play almost exclusively on their own turn. It's definitely nice to have powerful steam vents deck again, and I definitely play both of them, but it would be nice to actually have like a Delver/Snap/Bolt/Remand deck again; at least while Exarch and Pestermite aren't being cast.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
First, we would have to come to a concensus on even IF there is an issue. I think its comical to pretend there is not one, when ~49% of the top 8's on aggregate over 3 events across the globe are 2 decks, but...why what do I know?
So lets just say 'yep idSurge, you are in charge'.
I do 2 things.
1. Print better answers.
Path is a Tempo loss. Its a HUGE liability against several decks.
Counters in the 2cmc are comically underpowered, contextual, and depending on game state fundamentally useless or nonfunctional.
Removal is in many cases insufficient in comparison to the potential starts some decks can have, and when combined with hate that often costs 2cmc or more, it is too late.
2. There is fundamentally a gap in the meta, 2 actually, and its being exploited by Aggro to warp the format.
Control is suffering because of the diversity of the meta, and the lack of generally applicable answers. The only Control deck in the format is actually Terminus + Walkers. Its not seeking to 'Control' the board, the stack, or anything. Luck out on an Opt/Terminus on turns 3 or 4, and slam Jace/Teferi. The reason for this is, poor removal (too slow, or its worse than Terminus) and the Modern Counter Suite is either terrible, or costs 4 (Cryptic).
The issue is, how do we empower Control without making 'fair' midrange/creatures invalid? I firmly believe Terminus is a toxic card in the format. You cannot play around blind random top decks, and its a skill decreasing card.
Secondly, Combo is broken in the format. Someone has a link in their signature here about how Combo must be faster than Aggro, otherwise, just Aggro (in short?) well Wizards, and really the player base, does not allow Combo to exist consistently.
KCI should not have been banned. Twin should not have been banned. More Turn 4 Combo's (as this is a Turn 4 format is it not?) should exist that if you let them goldfish YOU WILL LOSE.
This would force decks to dilute their own game plan, or understand that they must race the combo deck. Which is where we start to come into things like better answers to the fact that consistent combo needs to be able to be disrupted to not take over the format.
KCI's issue was, it dodged so much disruption.
Anyway thats what I would do.
Make Control play a Control game, but give it the tools to do so.
Make Green/White/Black creature decks that just want to play a fair game (Jund/Junk/Knightfall/Rock/Zoo) able to do so without clenching their cheeks at every draw step.
Make Combo a real presence in the meta, such that Aggro needs to dilute their plan to disrupt, or lose on Turn 4 with regularity.
This would accomplish.
1. Meta representation for all decks.
2. Slow down the Aggro train without banning out 7+ Decks (Looting+Stirrings must be both banned if you ban one of them)
Spirits
I think WOTC has a decision to make, modern is supposed to be a fair format or it isnt? what kind of decks do we want? Jund and Abzan grinding or t3 karn.
A slower, fair format allows fair combo to exist, it allows control to exist same for aggro and midrange. Thats a healthy format. Unfair decks stop other decks from being able to exist in the meta. Tron being arround stops several decks from being playable
Without getting into the minutia of applying labels to decks.
Are you looking to kill an opponent with creatures/face burn, as quickly as possible? You are on the Aggro spectrum.
Phoenix is aggro. You can (and I have many times) go Turn 2 Thing, Turn 3 Flip + Phoenix x 2 and if you got a bolt in there, that is 16 damage. That is not 'tempo'.
Tempo, is Mono U Delver, or UR or UB Delver, in Modern, with things like Spell Pierce, and Disrupting Shoal.
Tempo is however, nothing but a subset of Aggro.
As to what is warping the format?
Phoenix and Dredge, its self evident we only have to look at the format since KCI was banned.
Spirits
Thing is
in the icewe have almost 3 months between now and the release of modern horizons. if printing answers is the solution, we will have this meta, in this state for that long?Thats assuming Wizards had the forsight to print answers, that specifically answer the combination of Phoenix and Dredge.
And yes, I would prefer to see what Horizons does before we ban out 7 decks.
Spirits
doesnt grixis delver and grixis DS both fit this description? granted delver isnt high on the tier list but DS certainly is.
Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
GDS needs to cast it's threats after a bunch of digging, but cfusionpm does indeed play GDS.
Spirits
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero