You get a double cast copy off ral and let that resolve, then cast your copy spell targeting the original double cast and get a copy of your copy spell. The copy spell is still on the stack. Copy it again. Repeat. Profit.
He's a one card combo in big mana decks. 4 mana Karn, -2, get Mycosynth Lattice, cast it for 6. Enjoy not having lands!
turning every land into an artifact land, and Null Rod Karn to shut them down. I wonder how many turns it would take tron to deploy this lockdown?
Makes me thankful there are no Tron players in the lgs I go to...
I don’t think it will be so powerful to be banned or anything like that; but I’ve been playing a Green Devotion build with the new Karn as a win con/toolbox and have been impressed with the card.
With Arbor Elf and Utopia Sprawl you can play Karn on turn 2 and Lattice on turn 3...and 10 mana in turns 4-5 is relatively easy if you top deck him. Granted, we are not a Tier deck yet...but I could see Arbor Elf/Utopia Sprawl + Karn becoming a “thing” even if not in Devotion...although it could help us (Devotion) tick up in Modern if someone figured it out (as we utilize Oath of Nissa and can get to 4-mana on turn 2 and 10-mana by turn 3). I can’t claim I’ve broken it or anything of that nature. Only that the power level seems sufficient for Modern.
I do have to temper this with the fact that my experience is based off of only a few dozen games of testing with Karn in a list I’m sure is not perfect (and a few dozen more “goldfishing” which doesn’t mean a lot)...but thought it was worth pointing out.
There are definite negatives...his +1 is essentially useless to us (decks that can make use of that are certainly better off) and he can be bolted following going down to 2 loyalty...so it will take a LOT more testing to determine true viability. Having said this; the initial reaction has been a positive one.
I hate to hype up a card that helps prison and Tron :)...but it does feel powerful enough for Modern. The combo is great (and fun on the rare “God—Hand” Turn-3’s); but there is real power in its use tutoring hate pieces (as Devotion tends to be weak to combo/hyper linear decks). It buys the time to go over the top. I’d have to agree the “toolbox” is as important as the combo.
Again, it is early; and Devotion is not Tier-1...but I do think It may a style deck that can really take advantage of Karn, the Great Creator. Regardless of archetype; I think the card is good; but does not appear broken. I assume there is a Mox Opal/Ancient Stirrings deck out there that will prove me wrong
He's a one card combo in big mana decks. 4 mana Karn, -2, get Mycosynth Lattice, cast it for 6. Enjoy not having lands!
turning every land into an artifact land, and Null Rod Karn to shut them down. I wonder how many turns it would take tron to deploy this lockdown?
Makes me thankful there are no Tron players in the lgs I go to...
I don’t think it will be so powerful to be banned or anything like that; but I’ve been playing a Green Devotion build with the new Karn as a win con/toolbox and have been impressed with the card.
<sni>
Again, it is early; and Devotion is not Tier-1...but I do think It may a style deck that can really take advantage of Karn, the Great Creator. Regardless of archetype; I think the card is good; but does not appear broken. I assume there is a Mox Opal/Ancient Stirrings deck out there that will prove me wrong
Hmm, I'm interested to see your list.
_______________________________________
If there is ever a white Tron build out there. They could use Tomik to make Ghost Quarter and Field of Ruin useless.
Mobilized District is like Dread Statuary's successor. It's a 3/3 instead of a 4/2, but it has Vigilance. You can also activate it for cheaper depending on how many legendary creatures and planeswalkers you have (so 3 mana if you also have a Karn, 2 mana for both Karn and Newlamog, etc.).
I don't know how to evaluate Neoform. On the one hand, you MUST tutor for a creature with converted mana cost 1 more than the sacced guy, and you need both green and blue mana. On the other hand, it costs only 2 mana, it doesn't get exiled after it resolves, and you put a +1/+1 counter on the tutored-for dude. Might Allosaurus Rider Cheat Combo come back, since they can get any 8-drop they want on Turn 2 (e.g. Griselbrand)?
Massacre Girl looks like a board wipe on legs (that tends to eliminate smaller dudes only) as long as something dies quick. Their mana dorks, your Tiago...just aiming a kill spell at one of their dudes makes all X/2's die as long as she isn't booted in response. And if more than one of those die...gosh, all the opposing stuff dead.
Might UG Merfolk like Merfolk Skydiver as a 2-cmc 2/2 flying Merfolk that you can actually Vial in? Pumping a lord or something at the cost of this guy's P/T also seems swell.
Cyclops Electromancer costs an icky 5 mana without Flash, but it's pretty good at killing creatures in a deck as instant- and sorcery-happy as Grixis Control.
...I suppose Reckless Abandon fans might like Heartfire. It costs 1 more mana, but it's an instant, and it lets you sac planeswalkers to it.
Massacre Girl looks like a board wipe on legs (that tends to eliminate smaller dudes only) as long as something dies quick. Their mana dorks, your Tiago...just aiming a kill spell at one of their dudes makes all X/2's die as long as she isn't booted in response. And if more than one of those die...gosh, all the opposing stuff dead.
I don't think her leaving play ends that effect. It's an EtB trigger, not a static ability, so it shouldn't need the host body because the trigger is on the stack and the effect dissipates at the built in time. You should be able to get her trigger, then remove her at any point and still get the entire body of text until the end of the turn. Nothing stipulates that she needs to be in play for the effect to last.
really wish Neoform was instant so could hold up other interaction or use it in response to removal, ah well probably too good in the standard card pool. i agree that its a hard card to evaluate. the dork -> neoform -> incubation druid interaction is promising, the same goes for being able to search up 2 growth-chamber guardian; and got me thinking about UGx elves where your targets are all in the 1-3 cmc range. havent done anything with my elves deck in a while, so here's to hoping.
as for massacre girl, i dunno about constructed playability, but i really like the mechanical flavor. how the effect can just snowball with each subsequent trigger.
really wish Neoform was instant so could hold up other interaction or use it in response to removal, ah well probably too good in the standard card pool. i agree that its a hard card to evaluate. the dork -> neoform -> incubation druid interaction is promising, the same goes for being able to search up 2 growth-chamber guardian; and got me thinking about UGx elves where your targets are all in the 1-3 cmc range. havent done anything with my elves deck in a while, so here's to hoping.
as for massacre girl, i dunno about constructed playability, but i really like the mechanical flavor. how the effect can just snowball with each subsequent trigger.
I think instant speed neoform for a reclamation sage to blow up a juicy target, or frilled mystic to counter something relevant, or even steel leaf champion to eat up an attacker. These would have been too good for standard at consistent instant speed plus pump, and that's staying even in tribe.
I would have liked to see it instant for modern, but I don't think it would have been modern playable even at instant imho. The best things you're going to get are probably hatebears from a bant shell and chord already does this around the same timeframe for a 2 drop.
Massacre Girl looks like a board wipe on legs (that tends to eliminate smaller dudes only) as long as something dies quick. Their mana dorks, your Tiago...just aiming a kill spell at one of their dudes makes all X/2's die as long as she isn't booted in response. And if more than one of those die...gosh, all the opposing stuff dead.
I don't think her leaving play ends that effect. It's an EtB trigger, not a static ability, so it shouldn't need the host body because the trigger is on the stack and the effect dissipates at the built in time. You should be able to get her trigger, then remove her at any point and still get the entire body of text until the end of the turn. Nothing stipulates that she needs to be in play for the effect to last.
Or am I misreading this?
is two different triggers. one etb, and one on creature death 'this turn' (being the turn girl is played) if girl is in play; hence the removal in response working.
Aristocrats looks to be getting several tools. I wonder if that will get enough toys here to become a real deck. The spoilers seem to be pushing a BR sacrifice deck pretty hard, and cards like Grim Initiate would eliminate the need for white, which opens up a lot of deck space.
Not to mention the fact that the deck would now have four different Blood Artist effects between Blood Artist, Zulaport Cutthroat, Cruel Celebrant (if you stay white), and that enchantment with a similar effect (forgetting the name at the moment)
The problem with Grim Initiate in Aristocrats is that you don't get a token if you already have an Army, you just make the existing token bigger. Aristocrats is a deck where having two 1/1s is better than having a 2/2 because you get to drain them twice.
The problem with Grim Initiate in Aristocrats is that you don't get a token if you already have an Army, you just make the existing token bigger. Aristocrats is a deck where having two 1/1s is better than having a 2/2 because you get to drain them twice.
Yes, but sacrificing usually isn't a problem in that deck.
Massacre Girl looks like a board wipe on legs (that tends to eliminate smaller dudes only) as long as something dies quick. Their mana dorks, your Tiago...just aiming a kill spell at one of their dudes makes all X/2's die as long as she isn't booted in response. And if more than one of those die...gosh, all the opposing stuff dead.
I don't think her leaving play ends that effect. It's an EtB trigger, not a static ability, so it shouldn't need the host body because the trigger is on the stack and the effect dissipates at the built in time. You should be able to get her trigger, then remove her at any point and still get the entire body of text until the end of the turn. Nothing stipulates that she needs to be in play for the effect to last.
Or am I misreading this?
is two different triggers. one etb, and one on creature death 'this turn' (being the turn girl is played) if girl is in play; hence the removal in response working.
This is incorrect. Massacre Girl only has one triggered ability. When it resolves it gives all other creatures minus one and it also sets up a delayed triggered that will go off until end of turn. Killing Massacre Girl in response will avoid triggering the 'whenever a creature dies' delayed trigger she would set up because it has not resolved yet, but killing her will not prevent it from resolving.
Shouldn't be a problem as long as you eat your armies first.
For the second time, it is a problem because of the timing. In Aristocrats decks you always want to sacrifice your tokens last. Your other creatures are much better fodder because they have death triggers and you can bring their dead bodies back with Return to the Ranks or Rally the Ancestors.
Specific example: let's say I have 3 lands, Viscera Seer, Doomed Traveler and a Spirit token on the battlefield. I've got three dudes in the graveyard and Return to the Ranks in hand. I can sac Traveler, make a token, then tap everything to Return for 4, bringing the dead Traveler and three dudes back. At the end of all that I've got seven bodies on the battlefield.
Now replace Doomed Traveler with Grim Initiate and the Spirit with a Zombie Army, what can I do? I can Return for 3 without saccing anything and end up with six bodies. Or, worse yet, I can sac my Zombie Army, then sac my Grim Initiate, Return for 3, and end up with five bodies.
Tried Dreadhorde Arcanist in UR Phoenix. Man, this guy was awkward. Too often, he gets bounced by my own Awoken Horror. A Turn 2-3 Arcanist also can't cast anything surprisingly often, despite me putting 18(!!!) 1-cmc instants and sorceries in my UR Phoenix deck. Worse, this guy clashes curve-wise with Thing in the Ice. I wanted Pteramander back.
I don't know how to abuse Feather, the Redeemed. At least she's a 3/4 flier for 3 mana (OK, RWW). The interesting part comes where you can get back all your instants and sorceries that target your guys once each every turn. 3 life every turn with Lightning Helix? 1 damage every turn with Forked Bolt? 2 damage every turn if we upgrade that to Arc Trail? 1 damage and a card every turn with Electrolyze? Maybe removal/life every turn with Blessed Alliance or selective discard/life drain every turn you can chuck a card to Collective Brutality? At least you can get them back from Tiago's Flashback.
Tried Dreadhorde Arcanist in UR Phoenix. Man, this guy was awkward. Too often, he gets bounced by my own Awoken Horror. A Turn 2-3 Arcanist also can't cast anything surprisingly often, despite me putting 18(!!!) 1-cmc instants and sorceries in my UR Phoenix deck. Worse, this guy clashes curve-wise with Thing in the Ice. I wanted Pteramander back.
Phoenix is not the right deck for it. I think you're going about this all wrong.
T1 Land, Faithless Looting.
T2 Land, Arcanist.
T3 Land, Become Immense, Temur Battle Rage, Swing, copy Become Immense.
That's 13 double strike/trample damage on turn 3.
I would be looking for decks that can pump it. Rhythm of the Wild seems like a natural include. Something like Groundswell is also great.
Ral's Outburst is like a cheaper but nerfed Prophetic Bolt returned. Fun enough for Modern, yes. Good enough for Modern?
Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor has a swell -2 (2/2 Wizard token that loots) and a swell static ability (makes all opposing spells targeting your creatures and walkers cost 2 mana more). But she costs 4 mana, 1 of them blue...could she be good enough for Modern?
Could Bolt Bend find its way into the sideboard of GDS? It's much better than Stubborn Denial in the Humans matchup, and it allows some interesting lines of play against burn.
Back when it first rotated out of standard, Jeskai Heroic put up some results in modern (right before twin/bloom got banned). Maybe Feather will give those decks enough to make some headway. I will say that casting 2 Defiant Strike each turn seems great. Add in other cards, Twisted Image and Slip Through Space and you are casting a million cantrips each turn since they come back on each end step. If you have 5 mana and 5 spells (or less with phyrexian mana spells like Mutagenic Growth) you can take infinite turns with Sage of Hours. I think this may make Jeskai Heroic at least some semblance of a deck again.
Could Bolt Bend find its way into the sideboard of GDS? It's much better than Stubborn Denial in the Humans matchup, and it allows some interesting lines of play against burn.
I don’t think it will be so powerful to be banned or anything like that; but I’ve been playing a Green Devotion build with the new Karn as a win con/toolbox and have been impressed with the card.
With Arbor Elf and Utopia Sprawl you can play Karn on turn 2 and Lattice on turn 3...and 10 mana in turns 4-5 is relatively easy if you top deck him. Granted, we are not a Tier deck yet...but I could see Arbor Elf/Utopia Sprawl + Karn becoming a “thing” even if not in Devotion...although it could help us (Devotion) tick up in Modern if someone figured it out (as we utilize Oath of Nissa and can get to 4-mana on turn 2 and 10-mana by turn 3). I can’t claim I’ve broken it or anything of that nature. Only that the power level seems sufficient for Modern.
I do have to temper this with the fact that my experience is based off of only a few dozen games of testing with Karn in a list I’m sure is not perfect (and a few dozen more “goldfishing” which doesn’t mean a lot)...but thought it was worth pointing out.
There are definite negatives...his +1 is essentially useless to us (decks that can make use of that are certainly better off) and he can be bolted following going down to 2 loyalty...so it will take a LOT more testing to determine true viability. Having said this; the initial reaction has been a positive one.
I hate to hype up a card that helps prison and Tron :)...but it does feel powerful enough for Modern. The combo is great (and fun on the rare “God—Hand” Turn-3’s); but there is real power in its use tutoring hate pieces (as Devotion tends to be weak to combo/hyper linear decks). It buys the time to go over the top. I’d have to agree the “toolbox” is as important as the combo.
Again, it is early; and Devotion is not Tier-1...but I do think It may a style deck that can really take advantage of Karn, the Great Creator. Regardless of archetype; I think the card is good; but does not appear broken. I assume there is a Mox Opal/Ancient Stirrings deck out there that will prove me wrong
Hmm, I'm interested to see your list.
_______________________________________
If there is ever a white Tron build out there. They could use Tomik to make Ghost Quarter and Field of Ruin useless.
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I don't know how to evaluate Neoform. On the one hand, you MUST tutor for a creature with converted mana cost 1 more than the sacced guy, and you need both green and blue mana. On the other hand, it costs only 2 mana, it doesn't get exiled after it resolves, and you put a +1/+1 counter on the tutored-for dude. Might Allosaurus Rider Cheat Combo come back, since they can get any 8-drop they want on Turn 2 (e.g. Griselbrand)?
Massacre Girl looks like a board wipe on legs (that tends to eliminate smaller dudes only) as long as something dies quick. Their mana dorks, your Tiago...just aiming a kill spell at one of their dudes makes all X/2's die as long as she isn't booted in response. And if more than one of those die...gosh, all the opposing stuff dead.
Might UG Merfolk like Merfolk Skydiver as a 2-cmc 2/2 flying Merfolk that you can actually Vial in? Pumping a lord or something at the cost of this guy's P/T also seems swell.
Cyclops Electromancer costs an icky 5 mana without Flash, but it's pretty good at killing creatures in a deck as instant- and sorcery-happy as Grixis Control.
...I suppose Reckless Abandon fans might like Heartfire. It costs 1 more mana, but it's an instant, and it lets you sac planeswalkers to it.
Or am I misreading this?
"Reveal a Dragon"
as for massacre girl, i dunno about constructed playability, but i really like the mechanical flavor. how the effect can just snowball with each subsequent trigger.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I think instant speed neoform for a reclamation sage to blow up a juicy target, or frilled mystic to counter something relevant, or even steel leaf champion to eat up an attacker. These would have been too good for standard at consistent instant speed plus pump, and that's staying even in tribe.
I would have liked to see it instant for modern, but I don't think it would have been modern playable even at instant imho. The best things you're going to get are probably hatebears from a bant shell and chord already does this around the same timeframe for a 2 drop.
is two different triggers. one etb, and one on creature death 'this turn' (being the turn girl is played) if girl is in play; hence the removal in response working.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Not to mention the fact that the deck would now have four different Blood Artist effects between Blood Artist, Zulaport Cutthroat, Cruel Celebrant (if you stay white), and that enchantment with a similar effect (forgetting the name at the moment)
The problem with Grim Initiate in Aristocrats is that you don't get a token if you already have an Army, you just make the existing token bigger. Aristocrats is a deck where having two 1/1s is better than having a 2/2 because you get to drain them twice.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Yes, but sacrificing usually isn't a problem in that deck.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Shouldn't be a problem as long as you eat your armies first.
This is incorrect. Massacre Girl only has one triggered ability. When it resolves it gives all other creatures minus one and it also sets up a delayed triggered that will go off until end of turn. Killing Massacre Girl in response will avoid triggering the 'whenever a creature dies' delayed trigger she would set up because it has not resolved yet, but killing her will not prevent it from resolving.
Specific example: let's say I have 3 lands, Viscera Seer, Doomed Traveler and a Spirit token on the battlefield. I've got three dudes in the graveyard and Return to the Ranks in hand. I can sac Traveler, make a token, then tap everything to Return for 4, bringing the dead Traveler and three dudes back. At the end of all that I've got seven bodies on the battlefield.
Now replace Doomed Traveler with Grim Initiate and the Spirit with a Zombie Army, what can I do? I can Return for 3 without saccing anything and end up with six bodies. Or, worse yet, I can sac my Zombie Army, then sac my Grim Initiate, Return for 3, and end up with five bodies.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
However unsure if any decks want it or if it is spicy enough to spawn a deck.
I don't know how to abuse Feather, the Redeemed. At least she's a 3/4 flier for 3 mana (OK, RWW). The interesting part comes where you can get back all your instants and sorceries that target your guys once each every turn. 3 life every turn with Lightning Helix? 1 damage every turn with Forked Bolt? 2 damage every turn if we upgrade that to Arc Trail? 1 damage and a card every turn with Electrolyze? Maybe removal/life every turn with Blessed Alliance or selective discard/life drain every turn you can chuck a card to Collective Brutality? At least you can get them back from Tiago's Flashback.
Phoenix is not the right deck for it. I think you're going about this all wrong.
T1 Land, Faithless Looting.
T2 Land, Arcanist.
T3 Land, Become Immense, Temur Battle Rage, Swing, copy Become Immense.
That's 13 double strike/trample damage on turn 3.
I would be looking for decks that can pump it. Rhythm of the Wild seems like a natural include. Something like Groundswell is also great.
Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor has a swell -2 (2/2 Wizard token that loots) and a swell static ability (makes all opposing spells targeting your creatures and walkers cost 2 mana more). But she costs 4 mana, 1 of them blue...could she be good enough for Modern?
Reflector Mage and Deputy of Detention can only target opponent's cards unfortunately.
First thing that comes to mind for me is the Swans of Bryn Argoll deck. Feather even survives Anger of the Gods, that deck's wrath of choice.