Control has been mainboarding Negate for years now. Almost all the creature decks run some combination of Cavern of Souls/Aether Vial/Collected Company. Against creature decks, if your counterspells can counter creatures, there's a very big chance you side them out regardless.
Spells cast on your own turn/upkeep/combat/end step, etc
I LOVE the idea of FoN and you better believe I am jamming some number of them into just about any blue based deck from now until the end of time. But I am under no delusion that it is anything other than a niche card (like Spell Snare or Dispel). This is not something you just jam 4 of into every blue deck. Even I probably won't ever have more than 1-2 main and 2-3 in the 75 of any deck at any time. And I play decks with 4 Remand and 4 Cryptic.
What card deals with that? Stifle meets FoW meets Flusterstorm, meets I don't even know what else. in the Modern cardpool, I don't think I could find a set of cards that could do all of those things. FoW itself or actual Counterspell don't deal with half of that list between them
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
Comically enough, the "flurry of small spells" one is handled by the other big blue reveal of Flusterstorm. But yeah, like others have said that big list is wild to consider as "I need one card that can stop everything." Oh and force of negation can still be hardcast for three mana on your own turn...it isn't that crazy a regular cost considering the alternative. Ultimately, yeah even unrestricted counters have counterplay options. Control and tempo are improved, I don't want them to become juggernauts.
In short, sorry we don't have a zero mana alternative casting cost counterspell plus stifle?
I don't think modern has the cantrips to compliment FoN as a main deck inclusion. I only see this being played against spell based combo decks. The cost of Negate is 2 mana, not an extra card alongside it
Who cares about losing a card if you lose on turn three due to a lack of disruption? Force is a safety valve and should be viewed as such. It is a way to stave off a potentially backbreaking play, and card advantage can be accumulated later through any number of cards.
What card deals with that? Stifle meets FoW meets Flusterstorm, meets I don't even know what else. in the Modern cardpool, I don't think I could find a set of cards that could do all of those things. FoW itself or actual Counterspell don't deal with half of that list between them
Not a counterspell? Counters in general are pretty bad in Modern overall, and have been for years. Printing more of them doesn't solve that problem. The ones we got are neat, and I'm glad to have them, but they aren't really going to be fixing any problems the top decks are presenting. Hence my view on them.
It looks like they are still scared to print a halfway decent or just regular old counterspell that everyone thought we were getting. Also no playable cantrips so far. I don't understand how new Karn, Teferi and Narset, 3 of the most feelsbad cards in recent history are totally fine, but a decent 1 mana cantrip or a regular counterspell without restrictions is ZOMG TOO MUCH POWER! I have played a couple hundred matches against (and with) these new walkers and personally I think they should all be unprinted. Karn is by far the worst, people are jamming him in every deck and it's working. Artifact based decks are ruined forever, you have about 1 turn to deal with him or you automatically lose the game. It's not like there's tons of easy ways to just instantly deal with a PW like there are creatures.
As for Teferi, he makes your entire control deck a near useless pile of trash for 3 mana. Totally less powerful than a regular counterspell Oh and he does other stuff too, but that barely even matters once you're screwed by his passive. Narset is worse in older formats, but still feels pretty damn bad in modern, especially coupled with Teferis in play.
So far Modern Horizons is not exciting at all really, and nothing is close to the power level of these WAR walkers which are just completely the opposite of fun and interactive cards. Like I keep saying though, I can't wait to see some of these decks in large paper events very soon. I think it will be mostly Karn prison decks, UW and ultra fast combo/aggro, but there's not much room for anything in between right now.
Yeah, new Teferi is nuts, new Narset is nuts, new Ashiok is nuts. I just personally hate playing the game at sorcery speed, especially when it comes to threats. The only love WOTC is giving to flash tempo plays are things either very overcosted or very underwhelming. As mentioned a bit ago, Nimble Obstructionist was an awesome step in the right direction. Unfortunately, they seemed to run away from that quickly in favor of so many planeswalkers.
3 mana teferi is good against control, but he's weak to a ton of other decks...anything with more than 1-2 dudes turning sideways will chew through him.
Karn is fine. If you're losing to 4 drop + 6 drop your deck isn't competing very well against almost every other T1-2 deck that can also close out a game by t4-5.
So far Modern Horizons is not exciting at all really, and nothing is close to the power level of these WAR walkers which are just completely the opposite of fun and interactive cards. Like I keep saying though, I can't wait to see some of these decks in large paper events very soon. I think it will be mostly Karn prison decks, UW and ultra fast combo/aggro, but there's not much room for anything in between right now.
Certainly feels that way. This set so far is weird. More a fun call back than something targeted at the Modern format.
Not to mention new karn is way worse against aggro than old karn...
Here's what new karn did: kicked up its inevitability to 11. I get that. However, the answer to tron has never been to try to outlast it. The answer is always to slide underneath and stick a lightning bolt or glistener elf where the sun don't shine.
I keep typing up long messages and then deleting them, lol... I think it's interesting to see infect making a comeback, I may start playing it again. I just really want to see what some pro players do with the new cards and what they think about them. Personally I think wizards just didn't realize what kind of power level they were giving these guys for non-standard formats. I imagine new Teferi is a pain in standard too, but haven't been paying much attention to it. Also I'm sure there are/will be some really nasty cards in MH and I'd be glad to eat my words if there's still some completely OP stuff yet to be spoiled.
3 mana teferi is good against control, but he's weak to a ton of other decks...anything with more than 1-2 dudes turning sideways will chew through him.
Karn is fine. If you're losing to 4 drop + 6 drop your deck isn't competing very well against almost every other T1-2 deck that can also close out a game by t4-5.
I mean sure maybe if you are playing a Red Prison Deck. But Karn mostly does is his work in G Tron.
And the combo tends to be get 7 mana by Turn 3 or 4. Play Karn and Bridge or Trinisphere depending. Then Drop Lattice next turn which cannot be stopped without counters or lets say SSG in hand to make mana for artifact removal. The difference is Karn in G Tron has especially narrow answers to stop it if you don't have counter magic. It has total inevitability.
And after all that BS of Maro saying we almost put counterspell in Dominaria...SMFH. No unconditional total answer counter and probably no good white removal either...SMFH.
Counter spell will remain on the wish list, that's okay. We should focus on all the new toys and not on our seething resentment of a few poor choices by WOTC. Well, until all the spoilers are out anyway.
Counter spell will remain on the wish list, that's okay. We should focus on all the new toys and not on our seething resentment of a few poor choices by WOTC. Well, until all the spoilers are out anyway.
As I said in the MH thread, I am still optimistic for other throwbacks. We've seen throwbacks at varying power levels to a huge range of eternal format staples and icons. This includes fetchlands, Mother of Runes, Cabal Therapy, Ponder, Preordain, FoW, Goblin Welder, Jitte, Strix, Sneak Attack, Flusterstorm (actual reprint), and a Mox. I'm probably missing some other relevant ones. This makes me very optimistic for the following reprints and/or throwbacks:
-Swords to Plowshares
-Hymn to Tourach
-Brainstorm
-Wasteland
-Daze
-Stifle
-Rishadan Port
(List expanded since last post). The throwback for these cards could be Pondering Mage-bad or it could be closer to FoN/Giver of Runes. It would just take one hit on this list, let alone multiples, to have a major format impact. With so many cards to be spoiled, I am hopeful we see many or all of these references/reprints. Note that some of these reprints wouldn't happen, like Brainstorm. But Brainstorm variants are possible. Same with most of these cards on the list.
You guys are missing the point of Force of Negation. It's not just that it's a Negate effect, it's that it's a Negate effect that you can play to counter your opponent's turn 1 play when you're on the draw. Almost every deck in Modern has 1 mana noncreature enablers that they want to play on the first turn, and if you counter that enabler it really sets them back. I've played a lot of Dredge because my buddy has the deck, and you're often keeping hands on the back of a turn 1 Looting. If that Looting gets countered, it can slow down the Dredge player considerably. Those extra turns you get while the Dredge deck is stumbling is how a fair deck beats them.
And it doesn't matter that it doesn't counter creatures. Decks that play Force of Negation are also going to play creature removal. The only deck that makes it really unfortunate that it doesn't counter creatures is Bogles. Otherwise, you have other counter spells and removal for creatures. Force isn't for them, it's for the turn 1 enablers and to let you tap out without dying later.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Turn 1 Forcing a Faithless Looting or Ancient Stirrings is going to feel SOOOO good. I don't care if it's correct or not; my body needs this.
Even Forcing a Vial from Humans. The hardest games to play against Humans are the ones where they overwhelm you with tempo advantage because they played a turn 1 Vial. Humans playing on curve is a VERY fair deck. I would probably board the card out in sideboard games, but my point is that it does have some play even against a deck like Humans in game 1. It's going to be a main deck card for fair blue decks. I don't know if it's a 4-of, but if you want it at all you want it in the main, and you can board it out if it's bad like people do in Legacy with Force of Will.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Counterspell confirmed not to be in Horizons on stream. Press F to pay respects.
Already seeing apologists parroting that Counterspell is too good for Modern.
I can't even fathom a world in which that's true.
I have done a good job not being tilted for a good while...I think I'm losing that fight right now.
Exactly my feel.
"Counterspell is too good. It can counter any spell." Lmfao.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Assuming the second half of spoilers are as mediocre as the first, I think we'll have to seriously question wotc's understanding of the format and how that affects B&R decisions or rule changes. I'm cautiously optimistic that the second half of spoilers can redeem the set and make it the game changer most players expected once learning it'd be the first to bypass standard. However, that second half needs to have multiple impact reprints for that to happen imo. You'd think that the same people who allegedly monitor format health would have an expert understanding of the modern infrastructure and which existing cards would be most efficacious when it comes to filling in gaps, balancing the color pie, bolstering lower tier archetypes, etc were they ever reprinted into modern. Instead of utilizing those existing cards, which have concrete data, and opting to make MH a majority compilation of brand new unknown variables is a sign of either ignorance or ineptitude, in my eyes. I won't damn the set until everything is laid out on the table, but I'm going to have some serious trust issues come June 14 if all we have is a set with sweet EDH toys and one solid land cycle.
Assuming the second half of spoilers are as mediocre as the first, I think we'll have to seriously question wotc's understanding of the format and how that affects B&R decisions or rule changes.
I have literally been saying this for years, and constantly mocked for it. But time and time again, they show that their understanding of the format is embarrassingly thin and almost entirely dictated by spreadsheets and data sets of names. There is no deep and fundamental understanding of the actual format meta or how the decks interact with each other, outside of the absolute most basic, surface level observations. Is this set what it finally takes for others to see that?
Assuming the second half of spoilers are as mediocre as the first, I think we'll have to seriously question wotc's understanding of the format and how that affects B&R decisions or rule changes.
I have literally been saying this for years, and constantly mocked for it. But time and time again, they show that their understanding of the format is embarrassingly thin and almost entirely dictated by spreadsheets and data sets of names. There is no deep and fundamental understanding of the actual format meta or how the decks interact with each other, outside of the absolute most basic, surface level observations. Is this set what it finally takes for others to see that?
Honestly what makes it disgraceful is that it aint hard for WOTC if they care about this stuff to sign up to some Forums like this, Cruise multiple Reddit for Magic and sit in Discords. This isn't the 90s or early 00s. If they actually cared it wouldnt be that hard to do a decent job. If they wanted to do some research and find out what people think about various decks it be easy. But I honestly don't think they care and wanna fix things.
I mean really we don't want to give some colors answers cause they make the current answers bad? What do you care your selling packs not singles and presumably you want your new stuff to sell...stuff like this makes it hard to believe WOTC doesn't profit off the Secondary Market. But also its just a fundamental flawed people want new answers cause the current ones are lagging behind. I respect them more if they just flat out said we don't want better answers. But not printing Counterspell aint going to make people play 3 CMC Counter in Modern. They will pay the 2 CMC ones they got and the 1 CMC options. Besides Cryptic cause that is special.
What ungodly all-encompassing magic card are you comparing Force of Negation to now that can stop all of that? Cause I need like 4 playsets
What card deals with that? Stifle meets FoW meets Flusterstorm, meets I don't even know what else. in the Modern cardpool, I don't think I could find a set of cards that could do all of those things. FoW itself or actual Counterspell don't deal with half of that list between them
In short, sorry we don't have a zero mana alternative casting cost counterspell plus stifle?
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Not one after the other, each resolving independently (such as Burn), which is why I specifically phrased it as I did.
Not a counterspell? Counters in general are pretty bad in Modern overall, and have been for years. Printing more of them doesn't solve that problem. The ones we got are neat, and I'm glad to have them, but they aren't really going to be fixing any problems the top decks are presenting. Hence my view on them.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
As for Teferi, he makes your entire control deck a near useless pile of trash for 3 mana. Totally less powerful than a regular counterspell Oh and he does other stuff too, but that barely even matters once you're screwed by his passive. Narset is worse in older formats, but still feels pretty damn bad in modern, especially coupled with Teferis in play.
So far Modern Horizons is not exciting at all really, and nothing is close to the power level of these WAR walkers which are just completely the opposite of fun and interactive cards. Like I keep saying though, I can't wait to see some of these decks in large paper events very soon. I think it will be mostly Karn prison decks, UW and ultra fast combo/aggro, but there's not much room for anything in between right now.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Karn is fine. If you're losing to 4 drop + 6 drop your deck isn't competing very well against almost every other T1-2 deck that can also close out a game by t4-5.
Certainly feels that way. This set so far is weird. More a fun call back than something targeted at the Modern format.
Spirits
Here's what new karn did: kicked up its inevitability to 11. I get that. However, the answer to tron has never been to try to outlast it. The answer is always to slide underneath and stick a lightning bolt or glistener elf where the sun don't shine.
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
I mean sure maybe if you are playing a Red Prison Deck. But Karn mostly does is his work in G Tron.
And the combo tends to be get 7 mana by Turn 3 or 4. Play Karn and Bridge or Trinisphere depending. Then Drop Lattice next turn which cannot be stopped without counters or lets say SSG in hand to make mana for artifact removal. The difference is Karn in G Tron has especially narrow answers to stop it if you don't have counter magic. It has total inevitability.
And after all that BS of Maro saying we almost put counterspell in Dominaria...SMFH. No unconditional total answer counter and probably no good white removal either...SMFH.
Already seeing apologists parroting that Counterspell is too good for Modern.
I can't even fathom a world in which that's true.
I have done a good job not being tilted for a good while...I think I'm losing that fight right now.
Spirits
As I said in the MH thread, I am still optimistic for other throwbacks. We've seen throwbacks at varying power levels to a huge range of eternal format staples and icons. This includes fetchlands, Mother of Runes, Cabal Therapy, Ponder, Preordain, FoW, Goblin Welder, Jitte, Strix, Sneak Attack, Flusterstorm (actual reprint), and a Mox. I'm probably missing some other relevant ones. This makes me very optimistic for the following reprints and/or throwbacks:
-Swords to Plowshares
-Hymn to Tourach
-Brainstorm
-Wasteland
-Daze
-Stifle
-Rishadan Port
(List expanded since last post). The throwback for these cards could be Pondering Mage-bad or it could be closer to FoN/Giver of Runes. It would just take one hit on this list, let alone multiples, to have a major format impact. With so many cards to be spoiled, I am hopeful we see many or all of these references/reprints. Note that some of these reprints wouldn't happen, like Brainstorm. But Brainstorm variants are possible. Same with most of these cards on the list.
And it doesn't matter that it doesn't counter creatures. Decks that play Force of Negation are also going to play creature removal. The only deck that makes it really unfortunate that it doesn't counter creatures is Bogles. Otherwise, you have other counter spells and removal for creatures. Force isn't for them, it's for the turn 1 enablers and to let you tap out without dying later.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Exactly my feel.
"Counterspell is too good. It can counter any spell." Lmfao.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
I have literally been saying this for years, and constantly mocked for it. But time and time again, they show that their understanding of the format is embarrassingly thin and almost entirely dictated by spreadsheets and data sets of names. There is no deep and fundamental understanding of the actual format meta or how the decks interact with each other, outside of the absolute most basic, surface level observations. Is this set what it finally takes for others to see that?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Honestly what makes it disgraceful is that it aint hard for WOTC if they care about this stuff to sign up to some Forums like this, Cruise multiple Reddit for Magic and sit in Discords. This isn't the 90s or early 00s. If they actually cared it wouldnt be that hard to do a decent job. If they wanted to do some research and find out what people think about various decks it be easy. But I honestly don't think they care and wanna fix things.
I mean really we don't want to give some colors answers cause they make the current answers bad? What do you care your selling packs not singles and presumably you want your new stuff to sell...stuff like this makes it hard to believe WOTC doesn't profit off the Secondary Market. But also its just a fundamental flawed people want new answers cause the current ones are lagging behind. I respect them more if they just flat out said we don't want better answers. But not printing Counterspell aint going to make people play 3 CMC Counter in Modern. They will pay the 2 CMC ones they got and the 1 CMC options. Besides Cryptic cause that is special.