Sad news. I hate reddit, and I've not found a better Modern forum.
for sure. i dont mind reddit personally, and have used it for years, but i recognize it for what it is - a medium for collecting surface level bite-sized information and commentary. in depth discussions spanning days, months, and even years just isnt a thing unless the sub is really focused; which isnt common.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Damn. Longtime member who's used dozens of accounts, now just lurker, reporting in. This single thread has kept me on this site for years. I can finally rest now. There wont be any more ******* arguments about Twin and getting reported for bringing it up years later. My watch is over.
Bummer. Does anybody happen to know of any Discord channels for general Modern discussion?
EDIT: No experience creating a discord server, but I started something up for anyone interested in continuing discussions in a new medium. Work in progress, but I figured it'd be nice to have a place where anyone from MTGS can go and discuss with folks they've become familiar with. Please shoot me a message if you're interested and/or savvy in Discord server creation/maintenance; any help would be great. Here's the link for those interested.
a small minority of users constantly bashed Modern so vocally, to a point I could not stand the health of the very thread itself at some times!
I mean, if you like the best decks all being degenerate graveyard and big mana, then Modern is awesome and healthy!
I mean, sure, if you ignore UWx Control, GBx, GDS, Humans, Spirits, Affinity (Hardened and not), Storm etc. then yeah, Modern has been a cesspool of "degenerate graveyard and big mana" strategies and the only solution to this problem would've been a an enchantment that consts 2RR.
a small minority of users constantly bashed Modern so vocally, to a point I could not stand the health of the very thread itself at some times!
I mean, if you like the best decks all being degenerate graveyard and big mana, then Modern is awesome and healthy!
I mean, sure, if you ignore UWx Control, GBx, GDS, Humans, Spirits, Affinity (Hardened and not), Storm etc. then yeah, Modern has been a cesspool of "degenerate graveyard and big mana" strategies and the only solution to this problem would've been a an enchantment that consts 2RR.
/s
What is your problem that you have to interject Twin into every argument? FFS, I get a bad rap all the time exactly because of people like you making comments like this.
Hopefully our successor will be free of the surrounding argument happening right now!
A breath of fresh air might be best for the Modern forums specifically, it seems we always get into the exact same arguments that no one is willing to equivocate on.
a small minority of users constantly bashed Modern so vocally, to a point I could not stand the health of the very thread itself at some times!
I mean, if you like the best decks all being degenerate graveyard and big mana, then Modern is awesome and healthy!
I mean, sure, if you ignore UWx Control, GBx, GDS, Humans, Spirits, Affinity (Hardened and not), Storm etc. then yeah, Modern has been a cesspool of "degenerate graveyard and big mana" strategies and the only solution to this problem would've been a an enchantment that consts 2RR.
/s
What is your problem that you have to interject Twin into every argument? FFS, I get a bad rap all the time exactly because of people like you making comments like this.
I'm interjecting Twin because under all that hate is the need for a "bolt/snap/bolt" deck that's unquestionably Tier 1 and in the upper echelons of the Tier. Your reputation is of your own making, and you've cultivated it since Twin's banning with hundreds of posts either directly saying it or alluding to the notion that Twin deserves to be freed, because it didn't deserve to be banned, ignoring the fact that at the moment there are 3 (very blue decks at the top 2 of them URx), all with completely different playstyles.
(For you) The format isn't bad because it's a degenerate mess, but it's bad because it doesn't have Twin. Period.
I mean, sure, if you ignore UWx Control, GBx, GDS, Humans, Spirits, Affinity (Hardened and not), Storm etc.
For my money, aka "If I'm told I can win a million dollars in one tournament" kind of money.
Are you going to pick GBx, GDS, Humans, Spirits, Affinity (Frenzy/Hardened) or Storm, even Tron? For a million?
Or are you going to pick.
UW, Dredge, Phoenix?
Based on what I saw at the last SCG, and the last (checks notes) what 8 months? You pick Dredge or Phoenix or maybe UW.
Assuming that Phoenix is "degenerate". Mind you I'm playing almost exclusively UWx control/midrange/aggro and artifact prison decks aside from phoenix when it it first started being built, yeah my choices would be either UWx, Phoenix or Humans. I'd choose UWx because I've been playing the archetype for years (6+) or Phoenix because I like its tempo/spellslinger playstyle.
I mean, sure, if you ignore UWx Control, GBx, GDS, Humans, Spirits, Affinity (Hardened and not), Storm etc.
For my money, aka "If I'm told I can win a million dollars in one tournament" kind of money.
Are you going to pick GBx, GDS, Humans, Spirits, Affinity (Frenzy/Hardened) or Storm, even Tron? For a million?
Or are you going to pick.
UW, Dredge, Phoenix?
Based on what I saw at the last SCG, and the last (checks notes) what 8 months? You pick Dredge or Phoenix or maybe UW.
im assuming you are implying 'all other things being equal' (such as skill or the field). i think most of that list is close enough in power level where the experience and reps makes a noticeable difference.
like i remember you acknowledging a few months back how underrated GDS is, because of how streamlined/efficient/powerful the deck is. it falls in and out of favor, but is it really a less powerful deck in the abstract? the same goes for other decks such as humans, infect, or amulet titan for instance.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I'm interjecting Twin because under all that hate is the need for a "bolt/snap/bolt" deck that's unquestionably Tier 1 and in the upper echelons of the Tier. Your reputation is of your own making, and you've cultivated it since Twin's banning with hundreds of posts either directly saying it or alluding to the notion that Twin deserves to be freed, because it didn't deserve to be banned, ignoring the fact that at the moment there are 3 (very blue decks at the top 2 of them URx), all with completely different playstyles.
(For you) The format isn't bad because it's a degenerate mess, but it's bad because it doesn't have Twin. Period.
Good gracious. Get over yourself.
The format feels awful because playing against Dredge, Phoenix, Hollow One, Tron, and Titan all the time is pretty awful.
I mean, sure, if you ignore UWx Control, GBx, GDS, Humans, Spirits, Affinity (Hardened and not), Storm etc.
For my money, aka "If I'm told I can win a million dollars in one tournament" kind of money.
Are you going to pick GBx, GDS, Humans, Spirits, Affinity (Frenzy/Hardened) or Storm, even Tron? For a million?
Or are you going to pick.
UW, Dredge, Phoenix?
Based on what I saw at the last SCG, and the last (checks notes) what 8 months? You pick Dredge or Phoenix or maybe UW.
im assuming you are implying 'all other things being equal' (such as skill or the field). i think most of that list is close enough in power level where the experience and reps makes a noticeable difference.
like i remember you acknowledging a few months back how underrated GDS is, because of how streamlined/efficient/powerful the deck is. it falls in and out of favor, but is it really a less powerful deck in the abstract? the same goes for other decks such as humans, infect, or amulet titan for instance.
I dont think GDS is less powerful in abstract, but I do respect that it is not favoured when Humans/UW are also powerful. At least, thats the general opinion.
And yes, from an 'all things being equal' I still do believe its Phoenix/Dredge as a 1/1a and then maybe UW (the new 3 mana walkers are making it a pain, people are sleeping I feel) and then the GDS/Rock/Tron/Humans type things.
Assuming that Phoenix is "degenerate". Mind you I'm playing almost exclusively UWx control/midrange/aggro and artifact prison decks aside from phoenix when it it first started being built, yeah my choices would be either UWx, Phoenix or Humans. I'd choose UWx because I've been playing the archetype for years (6+) or Phoenix because I like its tempo/spellslinger playstyle.
Phoenix is degenerate. Anyone that tells you Turn 2 Thing, Turn 3 Manamorphose, Faithless, Faithless, Surgical/GutShot, Bring Back 2 Phoenix swing for 13 is not degenerate and is somehow 'fair' are well...I've got a bridge to sell you.
Phoenix is degenerate. Anyone that tells you Turn 2 Thing, Turn 3 Manamorphose, Faithless, Faithless, Surgical/GutShot, Bring Back 2 Phoenix swing for 13 is not degenerate and is somehow 'fair' are well...I've got a bridge to sell you.
It's pretty degenerate. Game 1 is often nuts with even the most medium of draws. I'm playing a Jeskai variant right now, fighting the GY hate in game 2/3 with sideboard Mentor and Geist, plus obligatory removal upgrade into Path. It's been hilarious watching opponents drop a relic or RIP or spellbomb, and then I just resolve and beat with a Geist + a bunch of burn spells. It's amazing how much better mediocre cards are when opponents play out of fear and misinformation to make poor game choices.
Yeah, having a hand and/or draws that are near perfect makes something degenerate. No *****, who knew. I mean, Affinity (Hardened and regular) can kill you on turn 3 and in extreme cases turn 2, are they degenerate? Burn can kill you turn 3 and usually you're effectively dead on turn 4. Hell, GDS can kill on turn 3 and also in extreme cases turn 2. I'm not seeing anyone calling the above degenerate...
I've played Phoenix for over 5 months non-stop, those extreme draws are as likely as just spamming cantrips while your thing got pushed/pathed. If you're trying to make an argument at least try and make it based on the average speed of the deck, not on god hands and extreme positive variance.
Yeah, having a hand and/or draws that are near perfect makes something degenerate. No *****, who knew. I mean, Affinity (Hardened and regular) can kill you on turn 3 and in extreme cases turn 2, are they degenerate? Burn can kill you turn 3 and usually you're effectively dead on turn 4. Hell, GDS can kill on turn 3 and also in extreme cases turn 2. I'm not seeing anyone calling the above degenerate...
I've played Phoenix for over 5 months non-stop, those extreme draws are as likely as just spamming cantrips while your thing got pushed/pathed. If you're trying to make an argument at least try and make it based on the average speed of the deck, not on god hands and extreme positive variance.
i think you are (wrongly) applying the negative connotation associated with the word degenerate. its just a label with a vague and mostly implicit definition. unfair, degenerate, linear, proactive, reactive, non-interactive, etc, etc. are just classifications.
UR phoenix, like many top decks now and in the past blurs the lines between macro-archetypes like aggro, combo, and midrange. however it is still doing degenerate things, which becomes most obvious with its most explosive draws. the interactions, such as cheating on mana by getting a bunch of creatures for 'free', do go beyond what i think many would consider the normalized or structured play patterns for the game. context matters of course, as some things are more or less broken, unfair, degenerate, or whatever you want to call it depending on whats going on around it; however im not sure many besides yourself would balk at using such terms to describe whats going on in UR phoenix.
like hardened scales? yeah id call some of the crazy things it can put together unfair, with the subset of the craziest stuff as degenerate. burn on the other hand, its very linear in its axis of attack, but its just machine gunning spells by hardcasting them; which isnt any more 'unfair' or 'degenerate' than the same strategy seen in standard.
at the end of the day though, it really doesnt matter what you call the decks as long as there is mutual understanding happening when talking about them. we can understand that a deck like dredge, or to a smaller extent phoenix, are just fundamentally different than a zoo beatdown deck.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
For prosperity now that the site is shutting down:
UNBAN TWIN!
In other news: many modern horizons cards seem useable, not overpowered. And I think that is the basic goal. Only a few are clear powerhouses, and as usual in any set there is a large amount of trash. Lots of edh stuff, but that has become more common also. I'm just not really turned off by this set. My favorite mechanics are coming back with new cards including dredge, storm, cascade and more. I hope they make more sets like this for modern, but more specifically targeted to modern would of course be appreciated.
Didn't some right an article where only three archtypes exist...Combo, Control and Aggro.
Anyway I say UR Phoenix is some Combo/Aggro sense it really doesn't play much in the way of controlling elements in the mainboard.
i mean there have been hundreds of articles lol. thats the thing, people get hung up on what a deck is categorized as, id guess because the largely incorrect assumptions driving perception about what requires more or less skill. really though there isnt like some unified theory of magic that is commonly accepted with explicit definitions we can turn to. like people arguing tron is some midrange or control deck, which ive seen come up from time to time. who cares? the deck is obviously doing something very distinct from a deck such as UW control, or something like jund or GW value town; exhibiting play patterns and game plans that can be seen from limited to standard all the way through vintage.
as for UR phoenix, im not sure if youve played the deck but one of its strongest aspects is board control; especially against decks that are soft to bolt, gut shot, and thing in the ice flips. aside from the most explosive draws it has midrange elements
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I never said Phoenix is as fair as Jund/UWx (which have "degenerate" plays like cheating on mana with BBE and Terminus or ignoring timing restrictions -more evident now with T3feri) or just "fair".
Phoenix is a mesh of aggro/tempo/combo elements which show depending on their opening hands and which turn of the game you are in. It isn't a monolithic aggro/combo deck that wants to smash face as fast as possible, it can and will grind.
My problem is with putting Phoenix on the same level of "degeneracy" as Dredge, Griselbrand decks etc. If Phoenix is degenerate on that level, then the decks I mentioned in my previous post are also degenerate if not more, because their fastest draws beat Phoenix dead. Words like "degenerate" have been bestowed with (severe) negative connotations that provide nuance. If you're fine with completely different things being lumped together and described with the same term, then ok, but it isn't based on their inherent structural properties. Dredge abuses the graveyard and needs it to win, while Phoenix simply uses it as a resource, as many decks are doing (including Jund/Rock and UWx), just with more intensity. There's a fundamental difference there.
That was the point of my previous post, degenerate is a subset of unfair decks, and Phoenix is (probably most of the time) an unfair deck which modern has plenty, not degenerate. (Ab)Using that loaded term as one and the same as "unfair" will get us nowhere, the words have differing intensity. We as a community should start distinguishing and establishing those terms if we want to have a conversation where we're all on the same wavelength and not just flailing around. It will help keep the conversation grounded and probably help fit decks in molds faster.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I'll see you fine men in hell <3
RG BBE Ponza
UX Eldrazi Tron
UR Jace Breach
EDIT: No experience creating a discord server, but I started something up for anyone interested in continuing discussions in a new medium. Work in progress, but I figured it'd be nice to have a place where anyone from MTGS can go and discuss with folks they've become familiar with. Please shoot me a message if you're interested and/or savvy in Discord server creation/maintenance; any help would be great. Here's the link for those interested.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
will miss seeing all the discussion and debates in this thread.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
I mean, if you like the best decks all being degenerate graveyard and big mana, then Modern is awesome and healthy!
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I mean, sure, if you ignore UWx Control, GBx, GDS, Humans, Spirits, Affinity (Hardened and not), Storm etc. then yeah, Modern has been a cesspool of "degenerate graveyard and big mana" strategies and the only solution to this problem would've been a an enchantment that consts 2RR.
/sWhat is your problem that you have to interject Twin into every argument? FFS, I get a bad rap all the time exactly because of people like you making comments like this.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
A breath of fresh air might be best for the Modern forums specifically, it seems we always get into the exact same arguments that no one is willing to equivocate on.
For my money, aka "If I'm told I can win a million dollars in one tournament" kind of money.
Are you going to pick GBx, GDS, Humans, Spirits, Affinity (Frenzy/Hardened) or Storm, even Tron? For a million?
Or are you going to pick.
UW, Dredge, Phoenix?
Based on what I saw at the last SCG, and the last (checks notes) what 8 months? You pick Dredge or Phoenix or maybe UW.
Spirits
I'm interjecting Twin because under all that hate is the need for a "bolt/snap/bolt" deck that's unquestionably Tier 1 and in the upper echelons of the Tier. Your reputation is of your own making, and you've cultivated it since Twin's banning with hundreds of posts either directly saying it or alluding to the notion that Twin deserves to be freed, because it didn't deserve to be banned, ignoring the fact that at the moment there are 3 (very blue decks at the top 2 of them URx), all with completely different playstyles.
(For you) The format isn't bad because it's a degenerate mess, but it's bad because it doesn't have Twin. Period.
Assuming that Phoenix is "degenerate". Mind you I'm playing almost exclusively UWx control/midrange/aggro and artifact prison decks aside from phoenix when it it first started being built, yeah my choices would be either UWx, Phoenix or Humans. I'd choose UWx because I've been playing the archetype for years (6+) or Phoenix because I like its tempo/spellslinger playstyle.
like i remember you acknowledging a few months back how underrated GDS is, because of how streamlined/efficient/powerful the deck is. it falls in and out of favor, but is it really a less powerful deck in the abstract? the same goes for other decks such as humans, infect, or amulet titan for instance.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Good gracious. Get over yourself.
The format feels awful because playing against Dredge, Phoenix, Hollow One, Tron, and Titan all the time is pretty awful.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I dont think GDS is less powerful in abstract, but I do respect that it is not favoured when Humans/UW are also powerful. At least, thats the general opinion.
And yes, from an 'all things being equal' I still do believe its Phoenix/Dredge as a 1/1a and then maybe UW (the new 3 mana walkers are making it a pain, people are sleeping I feel) and then the GDS/Rock/Tron/Humans type things.
Phoenix is degenerate. Anyone that tells you Turn 2 Thing, Turn 3 Manamorphose, Faithless, Faithless, Surgical/GutShot, Bring Back 2 Phoenix swing for 13 is not degenerate and is somehow 'fair' are well...I've got a bridge to sell you.
Spirits
It's pretty degenerate. Game 1 is often nuts with even the most medium of draws. I'm playing a Jeskai variant right now, fighting the GY hate in game 2/3 with sideboard Mentor and Geist, plus obligatory removal upgrade into Path. It's been hilarious watching opponents drop a relic or RIP or spellbomb, and then I just resolve and beat with a Geist + a bunch of burn spells. It's amazing how much better mediocre cards are when opponents play out of fear and misinformation to make poor game choices.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I've played Phoenix for over 5 months non-stop, those extreme draws are as likely as just spamming cantrips while your thing got pushed/pathed. If you're trying to make an argument at least try and make it based on the average speed of the deck, not on god hands and extreme positive variance.
I mean its cool, if you think Phoenix is a fair deck, thats fine.
Fair is Jund. Fair is Rock. Fair is Blue Moon, and UWR (if that even see's play anymore).
If you think Phoenix is in the same boat as those decks? OK I guess.
Spirits
UR phoenix, like many top decks now and in the past blurs the lines between macro-archetypes like aggro, combo, and midrange. however it is still doing degenerate things, which becomes most obvious with its most explosive draws. the interactions, such as cheating on mana by getting a bunch of creatures for 'free', do go beyond what i think many would consider the normalized or structured play patterns for the game. context matters of course, as some things are more or less broken, unfair, degenerate, or whatever you want to call it depending on whats going on around it; however im not sure many besides yourself would balk at using such terms to describe whats going on in UR phoenix.
like hardened scales? yeah id call some of the crazy things it can put together unfair, with the subset of the craziest stuff as degenerate. burn on the other hand, its very linear in its axis of attack, but its just machine gunning spells by hardcasting them; which isnt any more 'unfair' or 'degenerate' than the same strategy seen in standard.
at the end of the day though, it really doesnt matter what you call the decks as long as there is mutual understanding happening when talking about them. we can understand that a deck like dredge, or to a smaller extent phoenix, are just fundamentally different than a zoo beatdown deck.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Anyway I say UR Phoenix is some Combo/Aggro sense it really doesn't play much in the way of controlling elements in the mainboard.
UNBAN TWIN!
In other news: many modern horizons cards seem useable, not overpowered. And I think that is the basic goal. Only a few are clear powerhouses, and as usual in any set there is a large amount of trash. Lots of edh stuff, but that has become more common also. I'm just not really turned off by this set. My favorite mechanics are coming back with new cards including dredge, storm, cascade and more. I hope they make more sets like this for modern, but more specifically targeted to modern would of course be appreciated.
as for UR phoenix, im not sure if youve played the deck but one of its strongest aspects is board control; especially against decks that are soft to bolt, gut shot, and thing in the ice flips. aside from the most explosive draws it has midrange elements
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Phoenix is a mesh of aggro/tempo/combo elements which show depending on their opening hands and which turn of the game you are in. It isn't a monolithic aggro/combo deck that wants to smash face as fast as possible, it can and will grind.
My problem is with putting Phoenix on the same level of "degeneracy" as Dredge, Griselbrand decks etc. If Phoenix is degenerate on that level, then the decks I mentioned in my previous post are also degenerate if not more, because their fastest draws beat Phoenix dead. Words like "degenerate" have been bestowed with (severe) negative connotations that provide nuance. If you're fine with completely different things being lumped together and described with the same term, then ok, but it isn't based on their inherent structural properties. Dredge abuses the graveyard and needs it to win, while Phoenix simply uses it as a resource, as many decks are doing (including Jund/Rock and UWx), just with more intensity. There's a fundamental difference there.
That was the point of my previous post, degenerate is a subset of unfair decks, and Phoenix is (probably most of the time) an unfair deck which modern has plenty, not degenerate. (Ab)Using that loaded term as one and the same as "unfair" will get us nowhere, the words have differing intensity. We as a community should start distinguishing and establishing those terms if we want to have a conversation where we're all on the same wavelength and not just flailing around. It will help keep the conversation grounded and probably help fit decks in molds faster.
Macro Archetypes, sure.
There are way more than 3 archtypes that are fairly distinct, once we break things out. I mean Midrange is what?
EDIT: Fine, call it unfair then. I mean its irrelevant as long as we all understand that its not on the same tier of 'fair' as things like Jund.
Spirits