yeah now that we have seen the lists? This is not sufficient hate.
I'm up to 3 Surgical Main, 3 Ravenous, 1 Tormod's Side. Because I'm not willing to pick up Voids, which btw are now $70 cards lol.
Likewise. As predicted. People tend to react like this: ‘why should I change my board, other people are going to do it so I won’t face many of these degenerate decks’. And then, they get wrecked.
That said, seven slots are usually simply too many. What deck are you talking about? Between four and six is the sweet spot, depending on the strategy you’re adopting.
Hello guys im new here. Im glad i found this thread. I've been respectfully worried about how both sides, of the modern health and diversity argument, are not getting the chance to tell their entire story. I feel it is being hijacked by hysteria that only seeks to undo any potential progress or acknowledgement of the actual issues some see with modern. This is the core issue. As for the underlying motivation as to why i've personally felt the need to vent on this forum i think ive come to realize that ive been part of the problem. See i am guilty of thinking modern is in a healthy state but ive been blinded by what i see as cries for attention. I am now ready to dig deeper to listen to the other side of the coin. Maybe one day the community can come to a solution that even though may not be perfect, is one we all agree on still.
yeah now that we have seen the lists? This is not sufficient hate.
I'm up to 3 Surgical Main, 3 Ravenous, 1 Tormod's Side. Because I'm not willing to pick up Voids, which btw are now $70 cards lol.
If playing UW with 4 RIP and 2 Surgical in the sideboard is not enough, maybe this is a bit too much, don't you think?
UW lost to MonoR Phoenix in the QF though so maybe it would have been able to deal with Hogaak decks (I see this more as UW losing to Burn than to a GY deck, 4 Snapcaster + 2 Surgical Extraction should be enough to avoid Phoenix beats)
The deck is really strong, fast and consistent so that makes it more difficult for other decks to try outspeed it (Infect for instance could be a contender but it's not that much faster and has to avoid all those zombie blockers)
i will reserve judgement. I can name a few weaknesses of the deck. But they may not be enough to keep it in check. And i was unaware of the modern challenge results for this saturday.
yeah now that we have seen the lists? This is not sufficient hate.
I'm up to 3 Surgical Main, 3 Ravenous, 1 Tormod's Side. Because I'm not willing to pick up Voids, which btw are now $70 cards lol.
Likewise. As predicted. People tend to react like this: ‘why should I change my board, other people are going to do it so I won’t face many of these degenerate decks’. And then, they get wrecked.
That said, seven slots are usually simply too many. What deck are you talking about? Between four and six is the sweet spot, depending on the strategy you’re adopting.
Phoenix. So the Surgical's are not terrible anyway (free spell) but 6-7 seems fine if approaching a Hogaak meta.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Of course it is not warping! Who told you that?!
It's like when in extended old dredge was reigning supreme and everyone was packing 4 leylines in the sideboard.
Surgical extraction, a card that is very bad against nongraveyard decks, is seeing maindeck play everywhere. It was already seeing MD play before bridgevine, and dredge and phoenix were already borderline warping the format, but was somewhat acceptable. Now with hogaak it's like double the warpage.
But don't worry, need more data, the meta wil adapt. In 2 weeks we have the SCG and GP modern tournaments. I'm excited to see the lists that bridgevine puts in the top32 and how much MD and SB graveyard hate all decks pack, including bridgevine itself.
Remember when doing things like main-boarding multiple sideboard cards was considered warping? How is this not warping?
Because its not a deck anymore, its literally Modern.
Tell me, without Hogaak, is it 'wrong' to ignore Dredge, Phoenix, any deck that plays Snaps, Storm? People want to pretend decks like Phoenix are not 'GY' but there is a reason its starting to shift toward Aria of Flame.
Remember when doing things like main-boarding multiple sideboard cards was considered warping? How is this not warping?
Because its not a deck anymore, its literally Modern.
Tell me, without Hogaak, is it 'wrong' to ignore Dredge, Phoenix, any deck that plays Snaps, Storm? People want to pretend decks like Phoenix are not 'GY' but there is a reason its starting to shift toward Aria of Flame.
I just think it's silly to look back on old discussions about how X, Y, or Z would "warp Modern," and many of those people will tell us today that Modern is fine. It's a slow drip, a boiling frog, a gradual descend into where we are. Just frustrating given the comments people have made over the years, both here, and from WOTC, and then the stuff they print to incrementally break graveyard decks every couple months.
Remember when doing things like main-boarding multiple sideboard cards was considered warping? How is this not warping?
Because its not a deck anymore, its literally Modern.
Tell me, without Hogaak, is it 'wrong' to ignore Dredge, Phoenix, any deck that plays Snaps, Storm? People want to pretend decks like Phoenix are not 'GY' but there is a reason its starting to shift toward Aria of Flame.
I just think it's silly to look back on old discussions about how X, Y, or Z would "warp Modern," and many of those people will tell us today that Modern is fine. It's a slow drip, a boiling frog, a gradual descend into where we are. Just frustrating given the comments people have made over the years, both here, and from WOTC, and then the stuff they print to incrementally break graveyard decks every couple months.
Here's how I've come to peace with it.
1. Did (do?) I believe Modern is 'fine'? Absolute not, from a perspective of 2016 BGx vs URx as the benchmark for what is 'fine'.
2. Do I believe Wizard's has a grasp on what the 'winners meta' of Modern really is and how it play's out? No.
3. Do I believe Wizard's has currated the 5-0 lists to hide what Modern really is at the top? Yes.
So it comes to this.
Modern is what it is. Its not 2016, its 2019. If you dont like Modern, then we can simply choose to not play it. It will NEVER be 2016 again. We have gone too far. When the intellectuals of Twitter/SCG/CFB call Phoenix a 'fair midrange deck' I do a spit take. Thats a joke. However within the context of what Modern REALLY is? Sure, I guess it is.
Its the same as any game we play. We can accept the vision of the Dev Team, we can play it, or we can choose to do something else.
I'm 2 Months and 1 Week from not playing Modern again for 2+ years. So I'll laugh it off, watch the format do its thing, as it is now fully divorced from Standard and Legacy, and it just is what it is. So you have to play 6 'free' GY removal spells right now. Fine. So they are clueless about countless things in the format? Fine.
It's not 2016, and it is never going to be, ever again.
I saw a video of the allegedly broken Hoogak Bridgevine deck and it was disappointing, the new Hollow One. It's probably more consistent, but most of the time it is way too slow to be threat to many Modern decks. It is resilient enough to break into the defenses of the poor Jund-Jeskai piles that people love to bring to tournament tables, but so do many other decks. Does it beat Humans? Looks to me that the Meddling mage - Reflector Mage shenanigans would prevail.
Personally I would get rid of Grave Troll, Stinkweed Imp and Golgari Thug in the sense that the three of them are a engine too powerful to fill a graveyard quickly, as in "instead of drawing a card, draw 6" for the proper deck. As long as those are in the format, the graveyard is a single card from being too broken.
Anyway, it's interesting to see some changes on the landscape.
If players are not willing to adjust like I've seen a million players here say again and again, then they DESERVE to lose. I'm sorry for being blunt. Players during Eldrazi Winter that played me usually were not willing to play the best deck. They usually lost. All they could say is that "it will get banned." Well, during that time in which I bought the Eldrazi pieces that I was missing (only the new ones), I netted $1,300 worth of cash and prizes. I'm okay with it getting banned. That was obvious. It didn't mean that I was going to force myself to lose before it does actually get banned.
Refusing to straight up buy a new deck = deserve to lose because not willing to adjust? Is this a joke?
There were 2, maybe 3 decks during that period that could hang with Eldrazi. In a format as expensive as this, you seriously expect people to buy a new deck in the name of adjustment just to be able compete in some events?
This isn't being blunt, it's being stupid.
In some metas yeah, but using Eldrazi Winter as an example of players deserving to lose because of lack of adaptation is dumb af.
There's people that have played Affinity since late 2012 and their deck has not always been competitive. Likewise for Jund, UW Control, and probably other decks. Should their deck always be viable? I don't think anyone would say so. The truth is it's somewhere in the middle of what you and I are both saying.
You don't see me running Grishoalbrand during the recent era of everyone and their mother playing Surgical Extraction. Likewise, there hasn't been anything ever printed since 2012 for Bogles, but there's been plenty of hate, most of which is utilized in multiple matchups. You don't see me here complaining that I can't always win 70% of my matches with Bogles. (I haven't touched either deck for quite a while now.)
I'm not saying that people have to change their decks to the meta as often as someone has to for Standard. Modern is different. But then again, complaining about poor matchups in Modern has never been a new thing. "I am upset because my Tron deck can't beat Infect. I want a 1 mana cantrip rock that does 1 damage to a creature on the way to the yard." "It sucks that my Midrange or Control deck rarely beats Tron. They should just ban Tron or at least give me a fighting chance."
As for Eldrazi, yes some people were very, very upset that their Jund deck could not beat it. Eldrazi Winter is an extreme example of course because that writing was on the wall for anyone who played it or played against it. I'm just saying that some players decided to do the gentlemanly thing and not change their decks at all so that they would not win matches. But they certainly had the right to complain about it. I guess it's just 2 ways of thinking - A) I'll play the deck that gives me the best chance to win or B) I won't because it will get banned anyway.
*Regarding Hogaak Vine, I can tell you without any shadow of doubt that banning Altar of Dementia will not hurt the deck enough. A turn 2 Hogaak can be dealt with mostly only by Path to Exile, so decks without it are pretty much assed out. An 8/8 Trample on turn 2 is not acceptable in my opinion. Bridge from Below is not played in Modern Dredge, so that possible ban does not hurt anything. It just bans a card that begs to be broken. When I bought those cards during FS, I literally thought it was one of my cards that had the potential to hit $100 before eating a super rough ban some day. There's nothing fair about that card, obviously. You have to literally ban Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis, Carrion Feeder to slow the deck, or it would be multiple pieces. Who knows with Wizards? Honestly they could just be **** It, it's time for Faithless Looting to go.
**Sorry for the typos. It keeps changing "match ups" to matches because match ups is not a word and Grishotlbrand is a word, but g r i s h o a l b r a n d is not. There's probably more.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
How do you play Hoogak in turn 2 without involving high Dredge cards? Sounds as plausible as playing 4 Hollow Ones off a Burning Inquiry. Even with dregdge cards, I doubt it is anywhere close to Dread Return in power level.
How do you play Hoogak in turn 2 without involving high Dredge cards? Sounds as plausible as playing 4 Hollow Ones off a Burning Inquiry. Even with dregdge cards, I doubt it is anywhere close to Dread Return in power level.
How do you play Hoogak in turn 2 without involving high Dredge cards? Sounds as plausible as playing 4 Hollow Ones off a Burning Inquiry. Even with dregdge cards, I doubt it is anywhere close to Dread Return in power level.
2 lands, Stitcher's Supplier, and Carrion Feeder. If the lands are fetch lands, of which the deck is 9 of 16 lands are, that's 2 + 3 cards in the graveyard. Assuming you have Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis or have hit something like a Bridge from Below and Bloodghast, you will have plenty of creatures to sacrifice to Carrion Feeder to make Zombies to Convoke and Delve out Hogaak.
Hogaak is usually a safer play on turn 3 because you don't want something to happen to him without a sacrifice outlet in play. The safer play is usually turn 2 Altar of Dementia. This usually puts the writing on the wall, depending on the yard of course, to the opponent that it's kill or be killed the very next turn.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I think this is just WotC reminding people that graveyard hate exists. It also makes me a bit worried that the next standard set might be really yard heavy.
yeah now that we have seen the lists? This is not sufficient hate.
I'm up to 3 Surgical Main, 3 Ravenous, 1 Tormod's Side. Because I'm not willing to pick up Voids, which btw are now $70 cards lol.
Spirits
"Reveal a Dragon"
Likewise. As predicted. People tend to react like this: ‘why should I change my board, other people are going to do it so I won’t face many of these degenerate decks’. And then, they get wrecked.
That said, seven slots are usually simply too many. What deck are you talking about? Between four and six is the sweet spot, depending on the strategy you’re adopting.
If playing UW with 4 RIP and 2 Surgical in the sideboard is not enough, maybe this is a bit too much, don't you think?
UW lost to MonoR Phoenix in the QF though so maybe it would have been able to deal with Hogaak decks (I see this more as UW losing to Burn than to a GY deck, 4 Snapcaster + 2 Surgical Extraction should be enough to avoid Phoenix beats)
The deck is really strong, fast and consistent so that makes it more difficult for other decks to try outspeed it (Infect for instance could be a contender but it's not that much faster and has to avoid all those zombie blockers)
It’s definitely enough. That’s not the decklist who wasn’t presenting a good sideboard for the metagame.
Phoenix. So the Surgical's are not terrible anyway (free spell) but 6-7 seems fine if approaching a Hogaak meta.
Spirits
It's not about beating both GY and non-GY decks, it's about sending a message.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
It's like when in extended old dredge was reigning supreme and everyone was packing 4 leylines in the sideboard.
Surgical extraction, a card that is very bad against nongraveyard decks, is seeing maindeck play everywhere. It was already seeing MD play before bridgevine, and dredge and phoenix were already borderline warping the format, but was somewhat acceptable. Now with hogaak it's like double the warpage.
But don't worry, need more data, the meta wil adapt. In 2 weeks we have the SCG and GP modern tournaments. I'm excited to see the lists that bridgevine puts in the top32 and how much MD and SB graveyard hate all decks pack, including bridgevine itself.
Because its not a deck anymore, its literally Modern.
Tell me, without Hogaak, is it 'wrong' to ignore Dredge, Phoenix, any deck that plays Snaps, Storm? People want to pretend decks like Phoenix are not 'GY' but there is a reason its starting to shift toward Aria of Flame.
Spirits
I just think it's silly to look back on old discussions about how X, Y, or Z would "warp Modern," and many of those people will tell us today that Modern is fine. It's a slow drip, a boiling frog, a gradual descend into where we are. Just frustrating given the comments people have made over the years, both here, and from WOTC, and then the stuff they print to incrementally break graveyard decks every couple months.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Here's how I've come to peace with it.
1. Did (do?) I believe Modern is 'fine'? Absolute not, from a perspective of 2016 BGx vs URx as the benchmark for what is 'fine'.
2. Do I believe Wizard's has a grasp on what the 'winners meta' of Modern really is and how it play's out? No.
3. Do I believe Wizard's has currated the 5-0 lists to hide what Modern really is at the top? Yes.
So it comes to this.
Modern is what it is. Its not 2016, its 2019. If you dont like Modern, then we can simply choose to not play it. It will NEVER be 2016 again. We have gone too far. When the intellectuals of Twitter/SCG/CFB call Phoenix a 'fair midrange deck' I do a spit take. Thats a joke. However within the context of what Modern REALLY is? Sure, I guess it is.
Its the same as any game we play. We can accept the vision of the Dev Team, we can play it, or we can choose to do something else.
I'm 2 Months and 1 Week from not playing Modern again for 2+ years. So I'll laugh it off, watch the format do its thing, as it is now fully divorced from Standard and Legacy, and it just is what it is. So you have to play 6 'free' GY removal spells right now. Fine. So they are clueless about countless things in the format? Fine.
It's not 2016, and it is never going to be, ever again.
Spirits
Personally I would get rid of Grave Troll, Stinkweed Imp and Golgari Thug in the sense that the three of them are a engine too powerful to fill a graveyard quickly, as in "instead of drawing a card, draw 6" for the proper deck. As long as those are in the format, the graveyard is a single card from being too broken.
Anyway, it's interesting to see some changes on the landscape.
There's people that have played Affinity since late 2012 and their deck has not always been competitive. Likewise for Jund, UW Control, and probably other decks. Should their deck always be viable? I don't think anyone would say so. The truth is it's somewhere in the middle of what you and I are both saying.
You don't see me running Grishoalbrand during the recent era of everyone and their mother playing Surgical Extraction. Likewise, there hasn't been anything ever printed since 2012 for Bogles, but there's been plenty of hate, most of which is utilized in multiple matchups. You don't see me here complaining that I can't always win 70% of my matches with Bogles. (I haven't touched either deck for quite a while now.)
I'm not saying that people have to change their decks to the meta as often as someone has to for Standard. Modern is different. But then again, complaining about poor matchups in Modern has never been a new thing. "I am upset because my Tron deck can't beat Infect. I want a 1 mana cantrip rock that does 1 damage to a creature on the way to the yard." "It sucks that my Midrange or Control deck rarely beats Tron. They should just ban Tron or at least give me a fighting chance."
As for Eldrazi, yes some people were very, very upset that their Jund deck could not beat it. Eldrazi Winter is an extreme example of course because that writing was on the wall for anyone who played it or played against it. I'm just saying that some players decided to do the gentlemanly thing and not change their decks at all so that they would not win matches. But they certainly had the right to complain about it. I guess it's just 2 ways of thinking - A) I'll play the deck that gives me the best chance to win or B) I won't because it will get banned anyway.
*Regarding Hogaak Vine, I can tell you without any shadow of doubt that banning Altar of Dementia will not hurt the deck enough. A turn 2 Hogaak can be dealt with mostly only by Path to Exile, so decks without it are pretty much assed out. An 8/8 Trample on turn 2 is not acceptable in my opinion. Bridge from Below is not played in Modern Dredge, so that possible ban does not hurt anything. It just bans a card that begs to be broken. When I bought those cards during FS, I literally thought it was one of my cards that had the potential to hit $100 before eating a super rough ban some day. There's nothing fair about that card, obviously. You have to literally ban Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis, Carrion Feeder to slow the deck, or it would be multiple pieces. Who knows with Wizards? Honestly they could just be **** It, it's time for Faithless Looting to go.
**Sorry for the typos. It keeps changing "match ups" to matches because match ups is not a word and Grishotlbrand is a word, but g r i s h o a l b r a n d is not. There's probably more.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)There's an excellent post on reddit about the deck, specifically including opening hand and mulligan decisions. https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/bym9rr/79_winrate_serious_discussion_about_mh1_hogaak/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
2 lands, Stitcher's Supplier, and Carrion Feeder. If the lands are fetch lands, of which the deck is 9 of 16 lands are, that's 2 + 3 cards in the graveyard. Assuming you have Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis or have hit something like a Bridge from Below and Bloodghast, you will have plenty of creatures to sacrifice to Carrion Feeder to make Zombies to Convoke and Delve out Hogaak.
Hogaak is usually a safer play on turn 3 because you don't want something to happen to him without a sacrifice outlet in play. The safer play is usually turn 2 Altar of Dementia. This usually puts the writing on the wall, depending on the yard of course, to the opponent that it's kill or be killed the very next turn.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
"Reveal a Dragon"