looks like the details of the new format were announced. didnt get to watch the videos but its called 'Historic' and starts from ixalan onwards (with earlier sets like amonkhet/kaladesh maybe added later).
notably its being labeled as a casual outlet (with pauper and singleton modes) that is specific to arena (at least for the time being anyways, obviously it could change in the future).
anywho that was some off-topic news, but i figured we have beaten this bridgevine 'sky is falling' discussion to death (damn GY recursion) and no one would mind. tbh i dont think people were expecting much and most of the fear for moderns sustainability or relevance going forward has waned in last few months; however this should clear up most any lingering uncertainty some may have been harboring.
It was nailed a while back about the homogenization of Hogaak decks. Dredge and Phoenix already kind of did this, but Hogaak is pushing it over the edge. Essentially any deck that uses the graveyard has to be doing it in a massively abusive way or else it's just not worth it. Value plays like Snapcaster, K Command, and the new (to Modern) Unearth are just so painfully mediocre and not worth it much of the time because of the massive levels of GY hate being seen.
Among the litany of other issues facing Hogaak (and GY decks in general), all of which center around the increased need to bring sideboard GY hate into the main in addition to several more slots in the side.
And to those looking for any reason or consistency within their ban logic, know this: they can ban (or not ban) anything at any time for any reason. They can just pick a card they don't like and ban it, then make up a reason afterwards. Whatcha gonna do about it?
They can also casually ignore any and all sense of reasoning or consistency with past statements, so long as there isn't a player uprising against them, or attendance drops.
THEY. DO. NOT. CARE.
As long as you keep showing up to play and there aren't enough people throwing a hissy fit, they have no obligation to do anything at any time, whether it makes sense or not.
Let's take a moment to thank Wizards for skewing data results to make us think that this slippery slope into GY abuse and "4 main deck surgical is correct" mindset is totally normal and absolutely OK.
Here's hoping they make it right on 7/8. But my hopes are not high.
Why should the graveyard be the exception? In certain metagames, it's completely reasonable to play 4 Fatal Push, but that's a sign of a healthy metagame, but 4 Surgical Extractions main is for some reason a symptom of unhealthy decks. If you get run over by a creature deck… but you don't have a single piece of creature removal, the response is really "Sorry, Charlie. You should've packed some creature removal in your mainboard. Them's the breaks!" If you get run over because someone goes buckwild with their graveyard it's, "The format is a hot dumpster fire." That's the part I have difficulty with.
Hogaak takes it too far, that's for sure. That's a deck abusing a zone beyond the limits of what the format can handle. I doubt we see that deck for too much longer in the format. But is it immediately wrong to have to pack grave hate, perhaps even mainboard? Most decks utilize their graveyard as a resource, so maybe we should be more open to interacting with it in general. Graveyard usage and creature prevalence both seem to be high. What truly separates them? Because we're just more comfortable with creatures being a core mechanic?
I'm curious to see the reasoning on why we should have such opposition to having to run gravehate. On a personal level, I don't enjoy having to run so much gravehate in the main or side. I'd be fine if most of the heavy grave-abusing formats left the format, but I just wonder if our mindset is what needs adjusting, instead of trying to force the format into a box that it used to fit inside of.
I'm curious to see the reasoning on why we should have such opposition to having to run gravehate.
Because multiple previous decks have been banned for what Hogaak is doing. And the abuse of the graveyard was specifically cited (albeit ham fistedly, and in-line with my above criticism of their logic) as a justification for banning a deck. Nothing matters any more. Consistency is irrelevant.
Here's hoping they make it right on 7/8. But my hopes are not high.
well if Albegas is correct with the subsequent b&r announcement only being a month afterwards its all the more reason not to expect any changes. as i mentioned in a previous post, for non-rotating formats 2 months is barely anything. i dislike the deck as much as anyone else since it sort of encompasses the worst aspects of modern by hitting basically every point of criticism over the years; also to be blunt id rather the deck go away even if it isn't 'too good' in whatever sense. however i can acknowledge that its just my opinion, and wizards might give it the appropriate benefit of the doubt until results provide confirmation.
being that close together if we DO see action taken on 7/8 id attribute it to one thing and one thing only: the mythic championship.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Here's hoping they make it right on 7/8. But my hopes are not high.
well if Albegas is correct with the subsequent b&r announcement only being a month afterwards its all the more reason not to expect any changes. as i mentioned in a previous post, for non-rotating formats 2 months is barely anything. i dislike the deck as much as anyone else since it sort of encompasses the worst aspects of modern by hitting basically every point of criticism over the years; also to be blunt id rather the deck go away even if it isn't 'too good' in whatever sense. however i can acknowledge that its just my opinion, and wizards might give it the appropriate benefit of the doubt until results provide confirmation.
being that close together if we DO see action taken on 7/8 id attribute it to one thing and one thing only: the mythic championship.
Who knows. Maybe they ban nothing and unban Twin and Stoneforge so we can watch how laughably mediocre they are these days? But it will cause people like me to flock to them anyway and take heat off the Hogaak nightmare for the short term.
But it will cause people like me to flock to them anyway and take heat off the Hogaak nightmare for the short term.
This is how Hogaak is going to (unless it absolutely devastates the top 8's) hide and dodge a ban. I've seen Wizard's already trying to push back on the hate for Hogaak on Twitter by asking people what they will be playing and to try and get their brew's and Tier 2 decks a feature/segment at the GP and the answers are not shocking, but disappointing.
It runs the spectrum from things like Dredge/Phoenix/Storm/Infect, to Mono R Prison, UW Control, and so on. Only a few of the responses even mention Hogaak, despite it being the accepted best deck that is only being kept in check by everyone warping to answer it.
People will play what they want, even if it is suboptimal.
Case in point? I'm staring at Knightfall + T3feri + Ice-Fang Coatl with 6 GY Hate cards in the 75 and thinking its gonna be great, simply because I need my 2 card combo's.
I'm curious to see the reasoning on why we should have such opposition to having to run gravehate.
Because multiple previous decks have been banned for what Hogaak is doing. And the abuse of the graveyard was specifically cited (albeit ham fistedly, and in-line with my above criticism of their logic) as a justification for banning a deck. Nothing matters any more. Consistency is irrelevant.
I don't disagree with you on that one. But is having to run grave-hate inherently wrong, or just a natural progression of the format? Why or why not?
I've just seen some people use the prevalence of grave-hate in decks as a sign that the format is unhealthy. But I often wonder if that's only because the format went for a long time with the graveyard as primarily as food for Tarmogoyf or potential targets for Snapcaster, as you mentioned a few pages back. Should we cling to the past, or just move forward and accept that interacting with the graveyard is just something you need to pack (akin to the Force of Will/Brainstorm package in Legacy fair decks)?
This thought is meant outside of the Hogaak deck. I suspect something will be removed from that deck at some point, but it still doesn't stop me from pondering the above idea.
I don't disagree with you on that one. But is having to run grave-hate inherently wrong, or just a natural progression of the format? Why or why not?
I've just seen some people use the prevalence of grave-hate in decks as a sign that the format is unhealthy. But I often wonder if that's only because the format went for a long time with the graveyard as primarily as food for Tarmogoyf or potential targets for Snapcaster, as you mentioned a few pages back. Should we cling to the past, or just move forward and accept that interacting with the graveyard is just something you need to pack (akin to the Force of Will/Brainstorm package in Legacy fair decks)?
If that's the case, then there needs to be a massive reassessment of the banned and restricted list, because a LOT of things there are laughably underpowered if the current state of affairs is considered acceptable for Modern. Twin, SFM, even Pod would all likely be totally fine since it's OK to be dying on early turns to decks that require Leylines in your opening hand, and are nearly impossible to meaningfully interact with using normal Magic cards.
That's because the most vocal and bitter posters tend to fill the thread?
I personally don't mind GY hate in the main.
My only concern is that hogaak seems to do fine even with such hate. I really do hope Wizards does nothing on the 8th so that we can see and appreciate what happens when hogaak flexes its muscle on a bigger stage. I don't want a new breed to spring up and keep repeating themselves for three years because they nerf'ed hogaak rapidly.
I don't disagree with you on that one. But is having to run grave-hate inherently wrong, or just a natural progression of the format? Why or why not?
I've just seen some people use the prevalence of grave-hate in decks as a sign that the format is unhealthy. But I often wonder if that's only because the format went for a long time with the graveyard as primarily as food for Tarmogoyf or potential targets for Snapcaster, as you mentioned a few pages back. Should we cling to the past, or just move forward and accept that interacting with the graveyard is just something you need to pack (akin to the Force of Will/Brainstorm package in Legacy fair decks)?
If that's the case, then there needs to be a massive reassessment of the banned and restricted list, because a LOT of things there are laughably underpowered if the current state of affairs is considered acceptable for Modern. Twin, SFM, even Pod would all likely be totally fine since it's OK to be dying on early turns to decks that require Leylines in your opening hand, and are nearly impossible to meaningfully interact with using normal Magic cards.
But of course they won't do that.
Well, there does need to be a bit of clean up of the banned list even if they ban Bridge (which they should; it's almost as horrendous a design mistake as Skullclamp). Stoneforge literally has no business being on there.
yeah the ban list could use cleaning. for the most part a good portion of the cards are being evaluated under assumptions born from context that is no longer relevant or applicable. this has been evidenced multiple times as cards were unbanned and it was clearly evident that pretty much no one knew what the hell they were talking about. its easy to chalk it up to anyone wrong being ignorant or incompetent, including wizards; but really the complexity of the system involved with format ecology and how it develops is crazy high.
like look at punishing fire. who the hell would play that card? at first blush id think it wouldnt show up anywhere, but i cant be sure cause there are way too many unknowns.
so basically wizards will (probably) never even attempt cleaning up the ban list and challenging assumptions of the past because its a huge pain in the ass; to the point where you'd probably be better served just remaking the format from the ground up. whereas the alternative is to just keep doing what they are doing, design new cards, they trickle into the format and it develops organically. ban stuff when it looks like its harmful and just move on.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
My only concern is that hogaak seems to do fine even with such hate. I really do hope Wizards does nothing on the 8th so that we can see and appreciate what happens when hogaak flexes its muscle on a bigger stage. I don't want a new breed to spring up and keep repeating themselves for three years because they nerf'ed hogaak rapidly.
don't mind running maindeck grave remove as well. Kaya's Guile has been great in Mardu Pyro. I cut blood moons for them since the big mana decks are nowhere to be found anyway.
about Hogaak. I don't see this thing lingering around for long, no need to be worrying about it.
like look at punishing fire. who the hell would play that card? at first blush id think it wouldnt show up anywhere, but i cant be sure cause there are way too many unknowns.
Hogaak Bridgevine, Jund, and Dredge probably would, for a start. Punishing Fire is less banned for being repeatable removal, and more banned for breaking symmetrical discard effects and being too easy to "draw" in graveyard decks.
the nexus also had a great two-part article about unbanning fire, where virtually everyone involved in testing got annoyed at long, repetitive uninteresting playstyles...except the uw control player.
On SCG versus,
They tested bridgevine against banned deck.
TBH, they didn't update the banned decks. Their stoneblane list plays jeskai color but red is only for 4 bolts (and some non essential SB cards.) It plays zero GY hate in main, 2 trap + 4 surgical in SB. It hopes to survive the early turns with permission spells. I doubt a stoneforge deck would look like this.
People consistently discount what it would take to keep these 'monoliths' of the format relevant in today's meta.
Assuming you dont ban Hogaak or nerf it in some way, you have 2 options.
Go under.
Run 6+ Hate, some of it main deck or you just auto lose Game 1. I'm not even making it up, thats just reality right now.
Forget about 'battle of the sideboards' you literally need to be able to execute your own strategy while holding onto a 'Hogaak' package of hate in reserve.
Now fit that into Stoneblade, forgetting for a moment that its namesake is Push/Bolt/Insert Removal Here and that the 'payoff' is an Artifact. Like we as Modern players have not dealt with an Artifact before?
Now fit that into Twin, which I see Todd (who is not ignorant to what the deck is doing) is shaving off even more of the Combo (3/2 Creature split, 3 Twin) because maybe, just maybe, its not that good in Modern, in 2019.
Now fit that into Eldrazi...oh wait, THEY DONT CARE they are Eldrazi, and it is still the best Modern deck of all time on the back of Eye of Ugin and the most hideous creatures they ever printed.
Honestly, unban Jitte, what deck even cares about Jitte that is actually competitive? None that I can see.
Either way, its an irrelevant topic. Wizard's is not going to review with any kind of integrity, the ban list.
I just hope for some seriously busted lines of play out of Hogaak, and an overwhelming amount of GY hate that is insufficient to contain the deck, and some clips that I can retweet to Forsythe.
I have been enjoying modern less than ever before. Even Eldrazi winter and treasure cruise delver was less oppressive.
My leagues this evening:
0-4 drop (lost to original affinity, urza combo and 2 hogaak decks)
3-2 (beat hogaak twice and UR delver once and lost to hogaak and amulet titan)
For reference I'm on a temur snow deck and have 1 surgical 1 relic main and another of each in the board. After this league I will be going up to the full 4 relics though I still don't expect that to be enough.
It's a small sample sure but in 2 leagues I used to play almost every deck differently maybe some repeats of like humans or phoenix, now I'm running into 2 or 3 hogaak's in just ONE league. It's madness. It's fast, consistent, resilient and heavily played. If nothing gets removed from the deck I'll be selling out of modern for sure. I'm fine with the deck existing but not on the level that it is. Either Altar or Hogaak itself need to go.
I have been enjoying modern less than ever before. Even Eldrazi winter and treasure cruise delver was less oppressive.
My leagues this evening:
0-4 drop (lost to original affinity, urza combo and 2 hogaak decks)
3-2 (beat hogaak twice and UR delver once and lost to hogaak and amulet titan)
For reference I'm on a temur snow deck and have 1 surgical 1 relic main and another of each in the board. After this league I will be going up to the full 4 relics though I still don't expect that to be enough.
It's a small sample sure but in 2 leagues I used to play almost every deck differently maybe some repeats of like humans or phoenix, now I'm running into 2 or 3 hogaak's in just ONE league. It's madness. It's fast, consistent, resilient and heavily played. If nothing gets removed from the deck I'll be selling out of modern for sure. I'm fine with the deck existing but not on the level that it is. Either Altar or Hogaak itself need to go.
I would not sell out so quickly. There is no way it goes through 2 ban announcements.
I've always been a fan of blue decks and at the time of the delve spell era I was on UWR control and I felt like I had a solid matchup with all the removal and 4 surpreme verdicts. I didn't have to dedicate 6 + slots to try to beat it.
As for Eldrazi it was obviously broken as hell but you had outs. It was like ok if I don't draw my sweeper I'm dead. Now it's like oh you've got an altar out and I have 7 cards in hand but none of them do anything, looks like I just lose on the spot on turn 2. For Eldrazi to turn 2 you they needed a seriously nutty hand like eye, triple mimic into temple SSG smasher. That's a 7 card 'combo' which you could also stop with just a discard spell or a removal spell or a counter or a blocker.
notably its being labeled as a casual outlet (with pauper and singleton modes) that is specific to arena (at least for the time being anyways, obviously it could change in the future).
anywho that was some off-topic news, but i figured we have beaten this bridgevine 'sky is falling' discussion to death (damn GY recursion) and no one would mind. tbh i dont think people were expecting much and most of the fear for moderns sustainability or relevance going forward has waned in last few months; however this should clear up most any lingering uncertainty some may have been harboring.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-digital/mtg-arena-state-beta-june-27-2019
edit: btw i think the format is going to be stale to straight garbo for the foreseeable future until multiple sets (or more likely blocks) are added. whatever, arena is f2p!
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Among the litany of other issues facing Hogaak (and GY decks in general), all of which center around the increased need to bring sideboard GY hate into the main in addition to several more slots in the side.
And to those looking for any reason or consistency within their ban logic, know this: they can ban (or not ban) anything at any time for any reason. They can just pick a card they don't like and ban it, then make up a reason afterwards. Whatcha gonna do about it?
They can also casually ignore any and all sense of reasoning or consistency with past statements, so long as there isn't a player uprising against them, or attendance drops.
THEY. DO. NOT. CARE.
As long as you keep showing up to play and there aren't enough people throwing a hissy fit, they have no obligation to do anything at any time, whether it makes sense or not.
Let's take a moment to thank Wizards for skewing data results to make us think that this slippery slope into GY abuse and "4 main deck surgical is correct" mindset is totally normal and absolutely OK.
Here's hoping they make it right on 7/8. But my hopes are not high.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Hogaak takes it too far, that's for sure. That's a deck abusing a zone beyond the limits of what the format can handle. I doubt we see that deck for too much longer in the format. But is it immediately wrong to have to pack grave hate, perhaps even mainboard? Most decks utilize their graveyard as a resource, so maybe we should be more open to interacting with it in general. Graveyard usage and creature prevalence both seem to be high. What truly separates them? Because we're just more comfortable with creatures being a core mechanic?
I'm curious to see the reasoning on why we should have such opposition to having to run gravehate. On a personal level, I don't enjoy having to run so much gravehate in the main or side. I'd be fine if most of the heavy grave-abusing formats left the format, but I just wonder if our mindset is what needs adjusting, instead of trying to force the format into a box that it used to fit inside of.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
being that close together if we DO see action taken on 7/8 id attribute it to one thing and one thing only: the mythic championship.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Who knows. Maybe they ban nothing and unban Twin and Stoneforge so we can watch how laughably mediocre they are these days? But it will cause people like me to flock to them anyway and take heat off the Hogaak nightmare for the short term.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
This is how Hogaak is going to (unless it absolutely devastates the top 8's) hide and dodge a ban. I've seen Wizard's already trying to push back on the hate for Hogaak on Twitter by asking people what they will be playing and to try and get their brew's and Tier 2 decks a feature/segment at the GP and the answers are not shocking, but disappointing.
It runs the spectrum from things like Dredge/Phoenix/Storm/Infect, to Mono R Prison, UW Control, and so on. Only a few of the responses even mention Hogaak, despite it being the accepted best deck that is only being kept in check by everyone warping to answer it.
People will play what they want, even if it is suboptimal.
Case in point? I'm staring at Knightfall + T3feri + Ice-Fang Coatl with 6 GY Hate cards in the 75 and thinking its gonna be great, simply because I need my 2 card combo's.
Spirits
I don't disagree with you on that one. But is having to run grave-hate inherently wrong, or just a natural progression of the format? Why or why not?
I've just seen some people use the prevalence of grave-hate in decks as a sign that the format is unhealthy. But I often wonder if that's only because the format went for a long time with the graveyard as primarily as food for Tarmogoyf or potential targets for Snapcaster, as you mentioned a few pages back. Should we cling to the past, or just move forward and accept that interacting with the graveyard is just something you need to pack (akin to the Force of Will/Brainstorm package in Legacy fair decks)?
This thought is meant outside of the Hogaak deck. I suspect something will be removed from that deck at some point, but it still doesn't stop me from pondering the above idea.
If that's the case, then there needs to be a massive reassessment of the banned and restricted list, because a LOT of things there are laughably underpowered if the current state of affairs is considered acceptable for Modern. Twin, SFM, even Pod would all likely be totally fine since it's OK to be dying on early turns to decks that require Leylines in your opening hand, and are nearly impossible to meaningfully interact with using normal Magic cards.
But of course they won't do that.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I personally don't mind GY hate in the main.
My only concern is that hogaak seems to do fine even with such hate. I really do hope Wizards does nothing on the 8th so that we can see and appreciate what happens when hogaak flexes its muscle on a bigger stage. I don't want a new breed to spring up and keep repeating themselves for three years because they nerf'ed hogaak rapidly.
Well, there does need to be a bit of clean up of the banned list even if they ban Bridge (which they should; it's almost as horrendous a design mistake as Skullclamp). Stoneforge literally has no business being on there.
like look at punishing fire. who the hell would play that card? at first blush id think it wouldnt show up anywhere, but i cant be sure cause there are way too many unknowns.
so basically wizards will (probably) never even attempt cleaning up the ban list and challenging assumptions of the past because its a huge pain in the ass; to the point where you'd probably be better served just remaking the format from the ground up. whereas the alternative is to just keep doing what they are doing, design new cards, they trickle into the format and it develops organically. ban stuff when it looks like its harmful and just move on.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)don't mind running maindeck grave remove as well. Kaya's Guile has been great in Mardu Pyro. I cut blood moons for them since the big mana decks are nowhere to be found anyway.
about Hogaak. I don't see this thing lingering around for long, no need to be worrying about it.
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Hogaak Bridgevine, Jund, and Dredge probably would, for a start. Punishing Fire is less banned for being repeatable removal, and more banned for breaking symmetrical discard effects and being too easy to "draw" in graveyard decks.
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
How? Is it any more than needed main deck Surgical Extraction, because GY decks are so wildly skewed?
I genuinely don't understand anyone's apprehension to things considerably less powerful and obnoxious than what is already in the format today.
Jitte, much like most of the banned list, was put there for a format that either hasn't existed for years, or never existed in the first place.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
They tested bridgevine against banned deck.
Results:
Bridgevine vs Jeskai Stoneblade
3-1 Bridgevine
Bridgevine vs UR Splinter Twin
4-0 Bridgevine
Bridgevine vs Eldrazi winter list.
4-1 Eldrazi
http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/38787_Bridgevine-Against-Banned-Modern-Decks.html
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
TBH, they didn't update the banned decks. Their stoneblane list plays jeskai color but red is only for 4 bolts (and some non essential SB cards.) It plays zero GY hate in main, 2 trap + 4 surgical in SB. It hopes to survive the early turns with permission spells. I doubt a stoneforge deck would look like this.
(Now, I suppose it would still lose to hogaak.)
Twin has even less GY hate.
It's also not the unbeatable monolith people want to believe it was, or in any way would be today.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Assuming you dont ban Hogaak or nerf it in some way, you have 2 options.
Go under.
Run 6+ Hate, some of it main deck or you just auto lose Game 1. I'm not even making it up, thats just reality right now.
Forget about 'battle of the sideboards' you literally need to be able to execute your own strategy while holding onto a 'Hogaak' package of hate in reserve.
Now fit that into Stoneblade, forgetting for a moment that its namesake is Push/Bolt/Insert Removal Here and that the 'payoff' is an Artifact. Like we as Modern players have not dealt with an Artifact before?
Now fit that into Twin, which I see Todd (who is not ignorant to what the deck is doing) is shaving off even more of the Combo (3/2 Creature split, 3 Twin) because maybe, just maybe, its not that good in Modern, in 2019.
Now fit that into Eldrazi...oh wait, THEY DONT CARE they are Eldrazi, and it is still the best Modern deck of all time on the back of Eye of Ugin and the most hideous creatures they ever printed.
Honestly, unban Jitte, what deck even cares about Jitte that is actually competitive? None that I can see.
Either way, its an irrelevant topic. Wizard's is not going to review with any kind of integrity, the ban list.
I just hope for some seriously busted lines of play out of Hogaak, and an overwhelming amount of GY hate that is insufficient to contain the deck, and some clips that I can retweet to Forsythe.
Spirits
My leagues this evening:
0-4 drop (lost to original affinity, urza combo and 2 hogaak decks)
3-2 (beat hogaak twice and UR delver once and lost to hogaak and amulet titan)
For reference I'm on a temur snow deck and have 1 surgical 1 relic main and another of each in the board. After this league I will be going up to the full 4 relics though I still don't expect that to be enough.
It's a small sample sure but in 2 leagues I used to play almost every deck differently maybe some repeats of like humans or phoenix, now I'm running into 2 or 3 hogaak's in just ONE league. It's madness. It's fast, consistent, resilient and heavily played. If nothing gets removed from the deck I'll be selling out of modern for sure. I'm fine with the deck existing but not on the level that it is. Either Altar or Hogaak itself need to go.
I would not sell out so quickly. There is no way it goes through 2 ban announcements.
Spirits
I guess you didn’t play much that time.
I've always been a fan of blue decks and at the time of the delve spell era I was on UWR control and I felt like I had a solid matchup with all the removal and 4 surpreme verdicts. I didn't have to dedicate 6 + slots to try to beat it.
As for Eldrazi it was obviously broken as hell but you had outs. It was like ok if I don't draw my sweeper I'm dead. Now it's like oh you've got an altar out and I have 7 cards in hand but none of them do anything, looks like I just lose on the spot on turn 2. For Eldrazi to turn 2 you they needed a seriously nutty hand like eye, triple mimic into temple SSG smasher. That's a 7 card 'combo' which you could also stop with just a discard spell or a removal spell or a counter or a blocker.